Some little known facts about the Central Falls, RI school firing incident

[berni_mccoy]

From http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_update_02-11-10_5HHDMPV_v52.398afed.html

Central Falls was one of six failing schools in Rhode Island that the Education Commissioner, Deborah Gist put forth reform programs. The method for acting on a school system was documented policy and recent copy is located here: http://www.ride.ri.gov/RIDE/Docs/Protocol_for_Interventions.pdf This includes a definition for a persistently failing school.

The Central Falls Superintendent was required to act on the Failing School Intervention Policy noted above. She did not want to apply the turnaround model (fire all teachers and rehire no more than 50% of them) and chose to give the teachers the option of using the transformation model.

As many have noted, the school district has some challenges, including poverty, high unemployment (15%), non-English speaking and transients. As such, the teachers were top-paid to deal with these challenges, according to the Superintendent, the average teacher salaries ranged between $72,000 and $78,000 / year well above the median for Rhode Island.

Under the transformation model, the teachers were asked to do 6 things:

1. Extend their work day by 25 minutes (no corresponding pay increase)
2. Provide one hour of tutoring a week
3. Eat lunch with students once a week (to help build a sense of community, remember, the challenges this area has)
4. Receive two weeks of paid ($30/hr) training during the summer
5. Stay after school 90 minutes one day a week to analyze student work and improve education program (paid $30 / hr pending funding)

The teachers would not agree to unpaid time and wanted $90 / hr for any time were required beyond their existing 6.5 hour work day.

Now, I'm a believer in paying teachers well (my wife is one after all), especially in challenged areas. But to ask for $90 / hour is a lot of money. $90/hr translates to $180,000 in a normal work year, and is about $40 / hr more than they currently make (if you divide their salary into hours worked over a school year, they make about $50 / hr).

Keep in mind, this school system doesn't have a lot of tax dollars to draw upon. Average income in the area is about $28,000 / year and it has a 15% unemployment rate. There were several attempts to negotiate a deal, but all seemed to fail.

Not only were the teachers fired, but the Principal and administrative staff were as well.

These teachers were not fired without warning. And their firing is a direct result of policy set forth by the state Education Commissioner. The school has persistently failed as noted in the article:

“We have a graduation rate of 48 percent. I have 19-year-olds in classes with 14-year-olds. It’s the middle of the school year and 50 percent of the students at the high school are failing all of their classes,” Gallo said. “We need these changes so we can move from where we are to where we need to be for the health and safety of the whole state. We have to meet these students where they are, bring these students up and lift the bar.”

This is not an attempt to bust up a union. There are many other schools in the state, all with union workers. This is about a persistently failing school with very well paid teachers who failed to deliver and who failed to negotiate. As a result, the kids will be moved to other nearby schools and the teachers have a chance to work at those schools, but they will need to reapply.

No one is out to destroy public education here. This community needed a fix for their failing school. When the teachers failed to negotiate with the Superintendent, this is what happened.

[aungsungsuchi2]

1. the most important element in education is the parents...

...

[berni_mccoy]

2. If parents fail a child, then what?

Should the education system fail them too?

[Catshrink]

5. Well, in the Obama model

The parents should be fired.

[Fresh_Start]

11. not entirely certain the parents were in the position to do much

the poverty, english as a second language, etc that are part of the student population are also part of the parent population

So I'm suspicious that the parents couldn't help their children with high school math or writing because they don't have those skills either.

[stray cat]

10. We also don't pay parents 70,000 per year whether or not they are "good" parents

however the idea that 85% of the parents are worthless in this area (the number of students who can't do basic math is really insulting to those working class families. I'm surprised no one objects to calling all those families particularly the parents worthless

[Fresh_Start]

17. I'll join you in objecting

other people have labelled the kids as horrible kids.
There's no evidence the kids are horrible.
I'm sure their home lives are difficult due to the families being transients.

[dysfunctional press]

29. the education system can't take the place of a parent, and isn't intended to...

yes- they should provide the child with best education they can, and therefore the tools to achieve themselves...
but- the school/teachers can't be expected to completely supply/take-over the parent's side of the education equation for every child whose parents 'fail' them. in a perfect society, sure- but in a perfect society, it wouldn't be necessary in the first place. :shrug:

maybe judge smails had the best answer for the situation: "well, danny- the world needs ditch-diggers too."

[asdjrocky]

32. That's the problem in America, we don't even need ditch diggers any more.

[roguevalley]

54. actually, the education system can't effectively teach kids who don't

get sleep, eat meals and take care of themselves with or without parental supervision. They can't teach kids who spend 80 days a year absent, have inadequate parenting and no language skills. Most classrooms have every kind of kid in them regardless of placement or disability and you are supposed to teach them all equally. I have had autistic, defiantly non-compliant, menacing kids with police records, asperger and mentally impaired kids in the same class. I got all the dangerous and out of control boys and the boys no one wanted because I did. I wanted them because their success was always a brilliant thing when I could help them achieve it. Some kids have never been told they are wonderful and good. I always made sure they knew that. I have had kids who rated 1% on standardized tests sitting next to kids that score 99% and were genuinely gifted. I have had kids who cannot read trying to do what I ask when they only know beginning sounds and counting on their fingers. DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON MAINSTREAMING KIDS!

Consider you are a teacher and the kids coming through your door are a mix of retained, non-English speaking, transient, between 2 and 6 years deficient in skills, ranging in temperament from lovely to homicidal and then consider having to teach them fifth grade curriculum. I have had kids with whom I was not able to turn my back. I had to always keep them in my sight and never turn my back. This is not abnormal. I think that many of the teachers on this list can tell you this is more and more normal.

I have had to schedule two conferences for one kid because the parents were too skanky to sit down together for thirty minutes and listen and decide together what they wanted to do with their kids. DON'T GET ME STARTED ON BUTINSKI STEP MOMS WHO WANT TO SCORE POINTS ON THE REAL MOM AT THE SAME TIME!

Then there are principals who are trying to move up, seldom are academic and any time you suggest something think you are challenging their authority. Superintendents only have to teach THREE YEARS in a classroom before moving up and so seldom do they know dick about education. Most of them are hired because they are money managers or builders, not education oriented. Imagine each year having to listen to dipshits telling you the district's whole focus is going to be built around some article they read in Psychology Today. Fuckers.

Consider having to teach more and different kinds of kids without adequate materials or even books. Imagine having to make miracles happen by yourself and having people still complain that you aren't doing a good job. Imagine loving them in spite of everything and not being able to do what you know you have to do because it is IMPOSSIBLE. Did I mention kids living every other day with each parent instead of in one home for months at a time? Do you wonder why they can't organize and they daydream all day long?

And, for all the gifted and talented parental nitwits out there, get them tested in the k-3. If you wait later it is almost impossible to get them into gifted programs because the curve is vertical by then. And there is nothing more nauseating than having a parent heckle you to get a nice reader referred to gifted because they are so 'awesome' and if you don't agree, having to live with that parent's anger.

And, consider the conferences where you lay out six years of standardized testing, your own personally developed tests that find deficiencies and strengths and telling a parent how their kid REALLY is and having them fume silently for a moment before telling you that is the first time they truly knew how their kid was academically because the lower el would tell them they 'were fine', they will grow into it eventually, its 'developmental'.

Oy.

Teaching is the hardest job in the world because you have 25-30 kids who are all over the place and a MANDATE to teach them at your grade level. People need to do it and find out that it is the hardest damned job ever before jumping on some teacher's back. There are crap teachers out there but there are heroes too and they are everywhere. Too bad they never get their stories told and I am not talking about the snivelers that win the awards all the time. I am talking about people who spend 100 hours a week doing their job and only getting paid for 40. I loved it. I loved my kids. But I can't stand the crap anymore and I have been retired 7 years. The game is over for me. And they don't really want to hear what the old school veteran teachers have to say anyway.

There is more to this story than the words in the article. Trust me.

RV, 27 years in teaching.

[dysfunctional press]

60. i am SO fucking glad that we chose not to have kids...

i can't imagine trying to raise them in this environment, and entrusting their academic education to this country's system.
and i certainly don't feel qualified to homeschool.

however- i can envision a future where homeschooling parents pool their resources and hire tutors/teachers to conduct some classes for groups of kids, in what would ultimately be a classroom setting. for all i know(not being a part of the homeschool world), they already do.

and- thank you for your service, teach...:patriot:

[roguevalley]

111. you are most welcome and if you didn't love these guys, you

can't do the job and last.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

72. Amen!

My father was a schoolteacher and you echo much of what he thought were challenges to that kind of work.

[roguevalley]

112. god bless your dad, honey.

:)

[callous taoboy]

81. This teacher of 17 years recommends that every teacher-basher read your post! +1

I could add my own horror stories to your post, but you basically said it all.

[Starry Messenger]

92. Excellent post RV.

+1,000,000

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. + a gazillion

[JVS]

75. If the parents fail a child, there is no way the education system can make up for that

[ourbluenation]

50. +100,000

[ConstitutionalLib]

67. That is an excuse..

You know every time I question the lack of instruction, the instruction by watching movies, the lack of homework, the weak curriculum, and the overinflated budget in my own district, I hear the standard refrain that "we don't raise these kids, we only have them for 6 and a half hours a day, the parents need to help". As stated by a number of our teachers at a recent school district deliberative session.

The average teacher in my district gets paid $55,000/yr. which is about 30% above the average wage in the area, not even factoring in the hours, paid off time, and the outstanding pension plan that is currently crippling the state budget.

Here is my problem with that reasoning;

I have held many jobs in my life, but I have NEVER been hired to do a job, and when I failed thought that I could say to my boss, "Well, if you helped me and paid me more I could have done a better job!" especially in the self righteous tone of voice used in that meeting.

[roguevalley]

113. then become a teacher and find out how it is and how FUTILE

you can be trying to stem the tide against the monolith that education has become. People who do other jobs get their raw materials and shape them and send out product. we get people who come to us in various condition and we can only do so much. Our job is like none other and cannot be standardly compared to anything else.

[Gabi Hayes]

120. you're wasting your time with that one. it claims that NO school district

ever gets its budget decreased (that it was able to find), among other BS

link to seventeen Illinois districts facing horrendous cuts next year:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-ormsby/move-over-illinois-human_b_468724.html

and if what it says about its district's educational programs is true, then it's clearly not a very progressive one, but it's also clearly not representative of most school districts

don't you love anecdotal 'evidence,' which anti-public education libertarian crackpots present to bolster their animus toward anything that reeks, to them, of shared community values?

btw, I just left a meeting during which a TWENTY PERCENT reduction of all classroom assistants in our district was explained. we have over three hundred assistants in said district (over 20,000 elementary/jr. high students), one of the largest in the state of Illinois, whose governor propsed cut school funding for next year by almost a BILLION dollars:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/25/quinns-new-budget-proposa_n_477250.html

In his gathering attempt to address the Illinois budget crisis, Gov. Pat Quinn has proposed roughly $2 billion in cuts, including nearly $1 billion in cuts to public school funding.

School districts are already suffering the consequences of late payments from the state, forcing schools across Illinois to shutter programs and fire teachers. The budget cuts will only worsen a situation that can only be described as dire for many districts.

[ConstitutionalLib]

124. Before you lambaste me for askin the question

look at your own reply. You cite an article from the Huffington Post discussing, again, impending budget cuts in Illinois. Mainly the article cites Springfield, Il. public schools. But if you go to Springfield public schools website and look at their financials...

http://www.springfield.k12.il.us/about/financialreports/

You find that in 2009 their total revenues(funding) was $189,043,288, up 3.8% from 2008

In 2008 it was $182,704,411, up 6.1% from 2007

In 2007 it was $172,247,135

So, again, they are EXPECTING cuts in funding because the state has less revenue to give them, and good business practices means you plan accordingly. What they are doing wrong is giving out raises in the face of anticipated declines in revenue.

But the fact is that their funding has increased EVERY YEAR.

[ConstitutionalLib]

123. And you just made my point

it is a governmental monolith. It is an entrenched bureaucracy that you are discussing. And my wife is and educator and has been for 24 years. I know the drill, doesn't mean I have to like it, or think it is acceptable.

[Xipe Totec]

3. What is Deborah Gist's salary?

And what has she done to earn it?

(hint)

Gist’s contract will run from June 8, 2009 through June 7, 2012. For the first year of the contract, she will earn $190,000 in base salary, plus $13,870 for retirement, or a total of $203,870, an amount that was approved by the state Department of Administration. Unlike McWalters, Gist will participate in the state retirement system. In addition to health, vacation and sick-leave benefits, Gist will receive $5,000 toward her moving expenses, and either the use of a state car or a $200 a month transportation stipend if she prefers to use her own vehicle.

Gist’s six-page contract includes a new perk: a possible performance bonus, although the amount of the bonus or the goals Gist would have to reach have not been ironed out.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/education_commissioner_salary_05-12-09_D9EAHF_v14.3b4f1b3.html

[Brickbat]

4. The teachers did negotiate with the Superintendent -- or tried to, anyway.

Judging from your post. They didn't agree to unpaid time, came back with a counteroffer, and then were fired. Someone didn't negotiate here, and it wasn't the teachers.

[mzteris]

19. it was their crappy "negotiators" -

not the teachers. Not the school.


Do you really think what was being asked was unreasonable? Do you really think NINETY DOLLARS AN HOUR was reasonable considering there is a $1.7 million budget cut for the schools in Central Falls next year?

What would you suggest?

[Brickbat]

24. So negotiate. You don't fire.

[mzteris]

27. there was no time left

in order to meet the demands of the Contract - a decision HAD to be reached by a particular date.

The officials knew this. They just thought they had they upper hand. They didn't.

[Hannah Bell]

45. That's BULLSHIT. It had nothing to do with "demands of the contract".

It had to do with Title 1 school improvement grant funding. The Duncan Ed Dept's requirements for the *grant funding* were what precipitated the whole thing.

And the grant deadline was ONE DAY BEFORE Gallo announced she was firing the teachers.

And the time between the day the state ed commissioner published her ID of lowest 5% & the day Gallo announced she was firing was LESS THAN ONE MONTH.

If she didn't have time to negotiate, she should have dropped the extra grant & just taken the usual title 1 money that was still available to her.


A continuing font of misinformation, is mz tetris.

[CreekDog]

6. Looks like 5.5 hours of additional work per week

If you assume they work 55 hours per week, I get an hourly rate of about $35 before these concessions.

And about $31/hour after the concessions.

[berni_mccoy]

8. Why do you assume they work 55 hours a week before the reforms?

[CreekDog]

13. for the sake of argument, i wanted to put down how much of a concession they were making

i don't think most teachers can do their jobs in 40, so i didn't assume they did.

a good teacher is likely working more than 55 per week...but they aren't all good. :P

[ConstitutionalLib]

68. I hate to nitpick, but

by union contract the teachers are limited to 6 hours and 40 minutes per day, and their pay is based upon that number. The fact that some of them do their lesson plans at home, or grade papers at home, is not paid time, according to the contract. And that is pretty much true all across the country as far as I have seen.

[CreekDog]

102. you're ridiculous: i said they are likely working that many hours for their job

the point was to put a dollar value, for the sake of argument, on the additional time/concessions the teachers were expected to take.

if they are being paid for 33.5 hours per week by contract now, adding 5 hours per week is a 15 percent increase in hours required in order to earn the same pay.

if you count the hours they actually put into their job (because they could be doing something else in the meantime), if that's 55 hours per week, it's about a 10 percent increase.

in either case, it's at least a 10 percent increase in hours the school is asking them to put in without compensation.

:shrug:

[ConstitutionalLib]

125. but they are not asking for 5.5 hours

per week unpaid. They asked, per the states transformation model guidelines for the teachers to spend lunch with their students, and spend 25 minutes per day after school unpaid. They asked for them to be avail. for tutoring one day per week for 90 miutes for which they were going to be paid $30/hr.

The union stated, according to the newspaper, that they would work no additional unpaid time, and they wanted $90/hr. for the 90 minute per week instead of $30.

[stray cat]

7. Accurate information has to be the starting point of any intelligent discourse - Thanks!

[Xipe Totec]

9. You forgot to put the sarcastathingine in your post

Or, did you really mean it?

:rofl:

[stray cat]

12. I totally mean it - of course I don't expect much rational discourse on DU

logic doesn't seem to have been taught in many school systems over the years

[Xipe Totec]

14. Judging by your reply, I must agree nt

[Hannah Bell]

48. the op is not accurate, about multiple points.

[Starry Messenger]

15. Here we go

Labor 101

Teachers work from a contract with a set amount of hours. Set by negotiation. With the union and the district. If the district wants to change the contract, it's a negotiation and they need to bargain. The Superintendent had a list of demands, the union set a price. The next move should not be "Oh well, you're all fired now". The school wanted 144 extra hours a year, essentially unpaid. That's $12,960 worth of free labor. Demanding free labor or else is union busting.

[amborin]

25. exactly! +100

[Starry Messenger]

58. Thank you.

There are deeper issues, as Hannah points out above. But people are generalizing this situation based on their own non-union workplace. It's really a difficult concept for some to grasp I'm finding.

[NJmaverick]

34. Too bad you don't worry about the kids in all of this

[MadHound]

41. Ah yes, that one

Teachers should put kids first and screw getting paid, or standing up for their rights, or demanding better facilities or whatever.

Have you ever thought that by doing these things teachers are, ultimately in the end, doing what is best for the kids?

Better pay, working conditions, etc. for the teachers means that the profession draws in better teachers. Which is good for the kids.

[NJmaverick]

65. I find it horrible that you think of kid's lives in the same light as car

or some other commodity. Kids are people and their education is important. If a person doesn't care about the kids they shouldn't become teachers.

[MadHound]

66. Again, you are using that old canard that has been used to keep teachers down for so long

That teachers should care about the kids, only the kids, and forego any concern for their own welfare and career, after all it's all about the kids.

Sorry, but that attitude is simply and purely bullshit, one that has been used to keep teachers underpaid and under valued for generations.

Would you dare to demand that I doctor not worry about his/her salary? After all, they should worry about their patients health first, right?

The fact of the matter is that teachers are human and professionals like every other career, and they have every right to worry about their career and their own lives first and foremost.

But as I said earlier, which you refused to address, by worrying about garnering better pay and working conditions, teachers are actually doing good for their students. Because by raising the pay, you raise the quality of teacher that enters the profession. I can't tell you how many bright young people stay away from education because of the low pay. Furthermore, having a physical plant that is well maintained and well supplied also benefits the students. So gee, it looks like teachers working for the betterment of their own position actually helps the students.

So knock off that tired old bullshit. Teachers can and should put their own life, their own career first and foremost, like every other professional does. And by doing so they actually help their students. Wow, what a novel concept.

[NJmaverick]

76. Teachers are hardly kept down. In the state of NJ they are well paid

and their hours are the envy of professionals of all fields. On the other hand the RESULTS are less than ideal.

[MadHound]

80. Let's see here,

Well paid? Average teacher's salary in NJ is $61,000. Given NJ's cost of living, they are in about the same shape teachers are out here in the Midwest, lower middle class.

As far as hours go, I see again that you're just full of stale old chestnuts. Teacher generally work eight hours a day, on the clock. Then there is the extra hours they work for extracurricular stuff, clubs, coaching, etc. Oh, and then there is all that work that they do at home. Oh, and that mythical vacation time in the summer, right. That's when teachers are getting in all that mandated education and training, at their own expense.

Meanwhile, in many parts of the country jobs like postal carrier, garbage collector get paid more than teachers. Hmmm.

Must be nice not having the public decide your salary, or what your working conditions are.

Any other tired old canards you want to trot out?

[NJmaverick]

85. You not being fully honest in your assessment of their plight

you deliberately ignored their outstanding pension benefits, the massive number of holidays and winter and spring vacation. You neglected the teacher's outstanding health benefits that last into retirement. You didn't mention that many other professionals are responsible for maintaining their own certifications. You were not fully honesty about what teachers do during their 2 and a half months off (many supplement their income with seasonal jobs). Your claim that they "generally work 8 hours a day" is a tenuous one, as many work less than that.

[MadHound]

89. Speaking of not being fully honest

Have you looked in a mirror lately.

Let me ask this, what is the basis for your claims? Do you work in the education field? Are you a teacher? Do you know teachers?

I do, and with that expertise and experience I can fully stand behind my claims. Let me give you the typical day of a teacher out here. They get to school at 7am, they have a one period break during the day which is reserved for either prep time, parent meetings, team meetings, or other school related work, it isn't a break. They have maybe a half hour lunch, unless they have lunch duty or something else on their plate. School let's out at 3pm, and teachers are required, required mind you, to stay until 3:20-3:30. Hmm, Sounds like an eight hour work day to me. But then lets get into after school activities, which take up anywhere from another hour to three hours at the school. Then they go home and have another couple of hours of work they have to do at home. That works out to be somewhere between ten and twelve hours a day. This isn't just what a few teachers do, this is the schedule that virtually every teacher keeps, I know, I've worked it, I've seen my parents and friends work it.

Outstanding pension benefits, HAH! Let's see, after thirty years of service teachers can retire to a modicum of comfort when they combine their pension benefits with SS and Medicare, and if they own their own home. Ooo, that's living high on the hog now, isn't it. Yet if they have health problems, or their investments tank or one of the many problems that beset retired folks in general happens, well gee, their screwed. I continue to meet former teachers who retired, then through no fault of their own, were forced back into the work force because those "outstanding pensions":rofl: didn't meet the needs of an emergency or even simple everyday expenses of life.

Massive number of holidays, yeah right. Except for most teachers those "holidays" are spent either playing catch up or getting ahead, lesson plans, reworking the room, or attending mandatory meetings called by the school district, or attending professional development seminars, or participating in groups that further their own professional development. Christmas break is, in reality, for most teachers about four days long, the rest of the time their doing school work. Spring break, one week that they get to go to a convention, on their own dime, to help develop their skill set some more. And summer break:eyes: give me a break. Getting that master's degree, setting up or tearing down for the next year, mandatory professional development, all of this on their own time and dime. Usually works out that a teachers has maybe a couple of weeks of time all to themselves. OOO, big vacation. Those few who are fortunate enough to have more time than that off do, yes indeed, take summer jobs. Why? BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GETTING PAID ENOUGH IN THEIR REGULAR JOB! We would think it a shame and a sin if a doctor was paid so little that he was forced to take a summer job, yet don't blink if it's a teacher, how fucked up is that?

You're simply continuing to repeat all the talking points of one who hates teachers and has an anti-teacher agenda. It is people like you who are preventing education from progressing in this country because you don't want to spend the money or effort it would take to truly develop a top notch education system instead. Your answer is simply to blame the teacher for everything, despite evidence to the contrary. And your basis for these assertions are simply the hot air you hear from other anti-education folks, especially those on the right in this country. Congratulations, you've been suckered by the RW, don't you feel intelligent:eyes:

I suggest that if you think this job is so cush, so easy, so well paid, get your ass into school, take all those hours, and there's a lot of them, to get an education degree, then go out and teach. Then get back to me on the matter. Do that and I think your tune will change real damn quick.

[Starry Messenger]

103. You're talking to a corporatist

They are like a different species. Evidently humanity has evolved a branch of serfs that consider their labor to be something that corporations should commodify.

[NJmaverick]

104. love those labels

some people couldn't function with out them

[LanternWaste]

114. Like "commodities..."?

Like "commodities..."?

[PVnRT]

91. Wow. So people shouldn't have good health coverage and pensions?

Interesting, though not surprising coming from you.

Your claim that they "generally work 8 hours a day" is a tenuous one, as many work less than that.

Fucking bullshit. I'd refute you, but, really, what the hell is the point? You're here to troll and little else.

[NJmaverick]

96. There wasn't a single correct statement in your post

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[Forkboy]

77. ....

:spray:

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

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[harkadog]

40. $30 a hour is now considered unpaid?

[Starry Messenger]

56. Did you read all the way through?

I know some DUers don't like to do that, but it's good to get in the habit of reading the *whole* post. :hi:

[QC]

82. It's more important to respond quickly than intelligently. n/t

[harkadog]

88. You proved that.

[harkadog]

87. Yes I did. I saw what the offer was.

[Starry Messenger]

101. The offer was counter offered

There should have been negotiations. Of course $90 is high--$30 is ridiculously low. There was space between the two to negotiate realistically. That's negotiation.

[harkadog]

105. You are saying $30 a hour is ridiculously low?!!

That is the equivalent of $62,000 a year. I'll bet 90% of the teachers in the U.S. would be very happy to earn that. There were three sets of negotiations. The teachers union refused to move from their stupid "counter-offer". They got what they deserved. I hope the teachers get new jobs somewhere but I hope the so-called teacher union negotiators never are allowed to work in the education field again.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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[harkadog]

116. Since you think $62,000 a year is cheap tell us what you sell your life for.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

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[Canuckistanian]

83. +1

Thank you. The contract is the ultimate authority in a union shop. No contractual obligation, no deal.

[Captain Hilts]

16. ProJo is a right wing rag, actually. But firing the entire faculty makes NO sense. nt

[branders seine]

18. fucking goddamned union members. who do they think they are?

asking to be paid for working is unamerican goddammit! fuckers deserved to be fired. fucking goddammed unions and union members deserve any fucking management can lay on 'em!















:sarcasm: since half of you probably can't tell.

[NJmaverick]

33. Fucking kids imagine wanting to learn or to have a future

:eyes:

[Grand Taurean]

20. $72,000 is alot of pay.

Still, how do you justify firing the entire staff and where will you get qualified replacements from to complete the school year?

[Xipe Totec]

22. You want to talk big pay? Check post #3 nt

[ncteechur]

26. In NC, teachers are not unionized and we don't make anywhere close to that much money

excuse me but in this case, the FUCKING TEACHERS SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED AND WERE RIGHTLY FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Catshrink]

28. They don't make that much money

that's the top of the pay scale.

Did you read the threads about the progress made at that school? You obviously don't have all the facts, if you did you wouldn't make such a statement. Unless you want to fire all of the teachers in all of the low income urban areas across the country. This problem is not isolated to one school in RI, it's an epidemic across the country. Really. Every teacher was responsible for the supposedly low math scores? The art teacher? The music teacher (if they could afford one)? The social studies teacher? Across the board actions are extreme and vindictive.

[mzteris]

73. 56 out of 72 earned that "top pay"

The school didn't want to fire the teachers. The union negotiators f'd up that situation. Blame them.

[Xipe Totec]

31. Fired for what reason?

Did you see what the administrator is paid?

Check post #3.

That's the pay you should be worrying about.

[harkadog]

42. I'd be worried about both of their pay

[Brickbat]

37. What does being non-union and not making as much money as them have to do with it?

Or are you saying they should be brought down to your standards, rather than you raising yourself up to their standards?

[intheflow]

59. I agree, that post sounds like a whole lotta sour grapes. n/t

[Starry Messenger]

57. Well ORGANIZE!!!1 lol

And what's this NCAE http://www.ncae.org/cms/History/264.html website I spied earlier when googling your claim? It says it's affiliated with NEA. Isn't that a union?

[PVnRT]

93. Aw, poor little "teechur" is a little jealous

[msanthrope]

95. I heard the superintendent on NPR--the applications are piling up

from around the state and across the nation. They won't have a problem hiring.

[mzteris]

21. Contract between the Central Falls Teachers’ Union Local 1567 ...

Rhode Island Federation of Teachers American Federation of Teachers AFL-CIO - September 1, 2008 - August 31, 2011

http://www.ntlongcber.com/cber/docs/_CF.htm

For those who care to read about the particulars of their agreement.

I can't find the violation. Could someone point it out to me?

[Hannah Bell]

46. Lunches; contract hours; pay rates for additional responsibilities; contracted

school year; contracted meetings


Maybe you should read the thing instead of just linking it.

[ConstitutionalLib]

69. They weren't fired for a violation

of their contract as far as I can tell. They were fired because the State only offered two options wholesale firing and starting over, or transformation.

The union refused to agree to the terms of the transformation, and that left the school board with no other options.

by the way, this wasn't some surprise sprung on the union. The school had been failing for a long time, and had reached the point where the state is now demanding action that has been lacking. How long can you graduate illiterate kids, and expect to hold onto your job? And I am not blaming the teachers, the administrators carry some of the burden as well.

[mzteris]

71. i wasn't saying the teachers

committed a violation. People are saying the school board is in violation of the contract because they were all fired. I'm trying to find where that is, exactly.

[ConstitutionalLib]

127. I didnt find it in the contract, but

The paper made it sound like the state gave them two options; the "transformation model" or the wholesale house cleaning model"

[Catshrink]

23. For the truth, see this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7830386

[asdjrocky]

30. Thank you.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

44. Thank you!!!

[LynneSin]

35. You know there are always 2 sides to every story and then there is the truth

that's somewhere in the middle and I'm thinking alot of assumptions are being made on BOTH sides

[demmiblue]

36. Right... says a person who can't even make it through a checkout line...

without getting pissed off! You would last two hours at the most!

[LynneSin]

53. Ok you got me there

plus I'm not keen on kids.

but I'm neutral in this one

[demmiblue]

38. Hey, Lynnesin... why not edit your post by letting others know what you edited?

[berni_mccoy]

86. I completely agree.

[Hannah Bell]

39. The guy who insists Boston is Rhode Island is going to educate everyone on the Central Falls

situation.

Hey, plenty of folks were discussing it days before you got involved, & you've still got your facts wrong:


"The Central Falls Superintendent was required to act on the Failing School Intervention Policy"

Uh, no, her action was only *required* if she chose to apply for a specific portion of Title 1 funds, the "Title 1 School Improvement Grant".

http://edpublishing.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/title-i-school-improvement-grants-offer-another-funding-source-for-low-performing-schools/


"The teachers would not agree to unpaid time and wanted $90/hr for any time were required beyond their existing 6.5 hour work day."

The union had precisely *three* meetings with Gallo: if you know how a negotiation works, you can fill in the blanks; a position is presented by one side, the other side goes home to discuss it in private & comes back with a counter-office. Then the *other* side goes home to discuss & mull it & comes back with *their* counteroffer, etc.

So here's how it probably went:

1st meeting: Gallo outlines her position.
2nd meeting: Union responds with their counter-offer.
3rd meeting: Gallo tells union she won't concede an inch & will fire them if they don't take her terms. Union says, ok, try it.

February 2nd: Gallo goes public with the announcement she's going to fire the teachers.

Feb. 9th was less than 1 month after Jan 11, when state ed commissioner ID'd Central Falls as one of the lowest 5% of schools.

That less than 1 month is the timeframe in which those 3 meetings took place.


PS: Standard workday = 6.75 hours + meetings, parent conferences & miscellaneous other contracted duties.

That list of 6 demands, in hours, adds 27 more days to their MANDATORY schedule: about 1 month. Not to mention the loss of planning & prep time (e.g. loss of free lunch period).

A trifle to you, I'm sure.



"These teachers were not fired without warning."

"Warning" = Feb 9-11th, when Gallo had already ended negotiations.

Formal Firing = 2/23.


"their firing is a direct result of policy set forth by the state Education Commissioner"

No, their firing is a direct result of:

1) Policy set forth by Obama's Ed Department as a requisite for the Title 1 School Improvement Grant Dec. 10, 2009: A NEW POLICY, BTW.
2) Ed Commissioner Gist & Superintendent Gallo's decision to apply for those funds & complete all the grant requirements in a very narrow window: APPLICATIONS DUE 2/8/10 (the day before Gallo went public with her decision to fire)
3) Gallo's choice to BULLY rather than NEGOTIATE.


"When the teachers failed to negotiate with the Superintendent"

The teachers did not fail to negotiate. The superintendent arbitrarily ended the negotiation and went public with her ultimatum.


"No one is out to destroy public education here"

Yes, many people are, including Obama's Education Secretary.


"This community needed a fix for their failing school."

Are you aware that English scores had steadily risen from 49% of the state average in 2007 to 80% of the state average in 2009?

And that math scores had risen from 11% of the state average to 26% of the state average?

Are you aware

Are you aware that the Central Falls schools had been taken over by the state because the entire *town* had gone bankrupt?

And had been through a succession of short-term administrators coincident with that?

As well as programs that appeared & disappeared because of changes in administration & funding?

And that those lousy rotten teachers you want to fire are the ones who hung in through all the bullshit?

Are you aware that the teachers had already been *forced* by Gallo to use their first period to serve school breakfasts, & to teach their lessons while the students *ate*?

The district had just achieved some stability, scores were improving & the fools & ideologues in power are going to tear it apart again.

[EFerrari]

43. This sure quacks like an attempt to destroy public education.

Those kids are now going to be outsourced. And the ones that were doing okay with a good teacher are wondering what they did to deserve this.

It sure looks like an attempt to save money on the backs of these kids and their teachers and staff.

[struggle4progress]

47. Oh, bullshit! There's simply no way the average teacher in Central Falls is pulling down

$72000 - $80000 a year

That $72000 - $80000 figure is obtained by adding together all "instructional services" budget items for the school and dividing by the number of teachers: it might well estimate the cost of keeping a teacher in a Central Falls High School classroom, but that cost is not only salaries

Let's run some numbers:

Central Falls High has an enrollment of about 900: http://rhode-island.schooltree.org/public/Central-Falls-Senior-High-076343-grades.html
Central Falls spent about $7000 per pupil on average for instruction in 2007: http://www.ride.ri.gov/Finance/ride_insite/2007/STATE/2007-RI-COMP-1b.pdf
All 93 teachers are under attack: http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_labor_complaint_03-03-10_TEHKQU_v38.37cda1e.html

(900*7000)/90 is $70000

There's not enough frickin money coming in to pay the teachers there "an average salaray of $72000 - $80000"

[berni_mccoy]

49. Well, you'll need to check that with the Superintendent. If she is lying, she deserves whatever

backlash she gets. The figure is quoted from the Superintendent in the article.

[frazzled]

51. Apparently it could be true (independent article that has nothing to do with this)

I found this article from the Providence Journal regarding the highest paid municipal wage earners in Central Falls from 2008. It's kind of wowza, The middle school gym teacher took in more than $95K that year.

The Journal compiled the list as part of a statewide look at school and municipal payroll spending during calendar year 2006. Figures were given to the newspaper by school and municipal officials. The state Open Records Law requires public agencies to make available certain public information about their employees, including names, job titles and pay. The Journal’s compilation looked at the total gross pay, meaning the total amount paid to the employee before taxes are taken out. It does not include the cost of benefits, but it does include base salary or wages and other “extras” such as overtime, stipends and severance packages.

Number seven on the school employee list, Calcutt Middle School gym teacher Anthony Ficocelli, who grossed $95,526.89, drew attention to what school officials refer to as overages, the money teachers get when they have more students in their class than allowed by contract.

Supt. of Schools Frances Gallo said that Ficocelli’s salary of $66,744 was augmented by $28,000 of overage costs. He also received a stipend for his work as an assistant football coach.

According to the teachers’ contract, high school and middle school gym teachers cannot have any more than 30 students to a class, Gaouette said. If the teacher has more than that, he or she receives $27 per student prorated based on the proportion of time the gym teacher has the student for that day. Gaouette said that the way the schedule is driven, most students ended up in gym class at Calcutt.

Gallo said the district is working to stop overages

“We cannot have overages like this. This can put the system out of business. Gallo said that in 2006-07 the district spent more than $200,000 in overages. This year so far, the school district has spent $60,000. None of it is coming from Calcutt and the majority of it is coming from the high school, she said. Gallo said she and others have been working on the problem. This year the district tried to relieve overage by hiring an additional physical education teacher to lessen the numbers of students in gym classes.

http://www.projo.com/ri/centralfalls/content/NO_CENTRAL_FALLS_TOPTEN_03-26-08_DQ9GR1C_v17.349d3b3.html

[Hannah Bell]

63. Do you know what overage is? It's when your classes have more students than they're supposed to.

If the district didn't want to pay him overages, they should have hired another teacher to teach the extra students packing his classroom.

That would have cost the district MORE money: first-year teacher = $41K + benefits. But it would have brought down this bogus "average".

[frazzled]

78. You seem to think everyone is a cretinous idiot who can't read

I specifically said it was because of overages. The point is, teachers are getting paid fairly well there. $66 base pay for the junior high gym teacher is close to $70K. My post stated it is quite possible the average pay is around $70K.

It's not a "bogus" average. I lived in New England (Boston area). Teachers are better paid there than in many other parts of the country.

You know, this story may be making a big splash on this board, but in the general public, people's hearts are not breaking. They see well-compensated teachers in a failing school whose union was inflexible. Half these teachers will be hired back under a new contract with the new provisions. The rest probably deserve to be let go or would prefer to teach in a less challenging district.

[berni_mccoy]

84. Mega +1

Thank you.

[Hannah Bell]

115. "They see" = you see, & repeat the same boilerplate talking points that have already

been repeated over & over & over & over -

cause that's the strategy.

I repeat, the district could have hired another teacher to teach all the extra students.

But that would have cost more money.

And it would have brought your bogus "average" down.

leaving your team without a talking point.

ps: a gym teacher isn't a "real" teacher now, eh? $66K is a shocking amount of money for a gym teacher in a ghetto school -- when sports are one of the things that keep some kids *in* school?

[msanthrope]

97. They paid the gym teacher 95k? Jeebus. I'm in the wrong line of work...n/t

[mzteris]

74. 56 out 72 teachers

were in the top pay tier.

The coach made $94K one year...

[struggle4progress]

107. Got a link?

[mzteris]

109. sorry 56 of 74...

Both parties initially agreed that transformation — the only model that protected teachers’ jobs — was the best approach for the high school.

“It honors our dedicated teachers and their expertise,” Gallo said at the time.

Gallo laid out six conditions she said were essential to transform the high school. Teachers had to spend more time with students in and out of the classroom, and spend more time with other teachers, improving their own skills.

Gallo said she could pay teachers for some of the additional duties — but not all. Gallo said she offered to pay the teachers $30 per hour to attend two weeks of professional development in the summer, and said she would try to find grant money to cover 90 minutes of weekly “common planning time” after school. All told, Gallo said the 74 classroom teachers — 56 of whom earn the district’s top step of $72,000 a year — would likely earn $3,400 more.

But Gallo said she didn’t have enough money to pay teachers for the other duties, including adding 25 minutes to the school day, tutoring students and eating lunch with them once a week.

Union officials said they were willing to make the changes but wanted to be paid for more of the extra work, and at a higher rate of $90 per hour.

((****Now here's a very telling statement, to me:***)))

“It’s not about time and money,” said Jim Parisi, a RIFT field representative. “It’s about our right to negotiate time and money.”**

Talks broke down.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_turmoil_02-28-10_TQHGS9N_v292.38b0e26.html


**I dunno, sounds like a "you're not the boss of me" type of statement a little kid would make. More and more it sounds like the union negotiators are the ones to blame for this fiasco. (Disclaimer, not knocking unions nor teachers - but the ones who were supposed to be negotiating - obviously didn't know what the hell they were doing!)

[struggle4progress]

121. But you make my point for me: if only 56 of the 74 classroom teachers earn around $70K and the rest

earn less, average pay for the teachers cannot possibly fall between $72K and $80K

[mzteris]

122. That's the salary tier

then teachers get paid "add-ons". The coach made $94K one year...


This is the latest contract that ridata.org has.

Member of the National Board for Professional Teaching Standard: $6,000 a year

Advanced degree: Ranges from $800 a year to $3900 a year

Complete an I Plan Certificate: $300 bonus

Department chairs are paid 10% more over step rate, plus $100 for each teacher supervised over 5.

Coaches receive either 5.6% or 6.5% extra to the BA scale, depending on which school they're at.

The athletic director is paid 14% over step.

Reform coach is paid 15% over step

Teacher coach is paid 10% over step

Extracurricular advisor/coach is paid $1,600 to $3,400 extra.

And finally, the one you broght up, the longevity bonus. Once you reach step 10, you get no more step increases. But you do get extra money each year.
11 years: $500
20 years: $1750
25 years: $2250
30 years: $2750
33 years: $3250

[mzteris]

126. The payroll register for 2007-2008

http://www.ridata.org/uploads/0708.F.CeF.S.P.pdf

typo

[Jakes Progress]

52. Are you trying to kill gomer norquist?

Your post is giving him non-stop orgasms. He surely can't survive the night with DU backing the neocon agenda so fully.

[elana i am]

61. OMG!

average teacher salaries ranged between $72,000 and $78,000 / year

holy crap! :wow:

[Hannah Bell]

62. back to where you came from.

[PVnRT]

94. Goddamn fucking teachers make too much!

Teachers should work for free! Fucking pieces of comm-you-nist liberal hippie shit!

:sarcasm:

[jeanpalmer]

64. What I don't understand is

why none of the four choices of intervention starts with a determination of "why are the schools failing?" Seems like that's the first thing you'd want to know. Instead, the assumption in the end was that kids were failing because teachers weren't spending lunch time with them, etc. That's sounds like a political and not a scientific determination. How goofy can they get? And I'm guessing that's why the teachers objected, because they were being scapegoated for something they hadn't been shown to be responsible for.

What evidence is there that spending lunch time with students will improve their learning when spending 9 months in school, 6 hours a days, doesn't do it? Or that any of the other remedies would change the outcome? I'd like to see the evidence on that.

I'm not a teacher, but I know kids who are very limited in their abilities. I can see where if you had a whole school made up of these kinds of kids, it would be impossible to get even the limited success expected. That's why it's important to determine why the school is failing, to do an honest assessment. You know why they don't do that? Because if it turns out that the failure is related to the limited abilities of the kids, that would be a politically difficult finding to sell the public because the popular right wing wisdom is "the kids aren't the problem, the teachers are." And to tell a parent that his kid isn't a potential rocket scientist but is very limited in abilities is politically impossible. There would be mass protests and the school superintendant would be fired.

And yet there are indications here that the kids indeed may have very limited abilities.

You're not seeing the right wing political nature of this decision.

[LWolf]

70. I'll explain it to you, then:

None of the four choices of intervention starts with a determination of "why are the schools failing?" because this is a POLITICAL maneuver. It's not about students, it's about union-busting and privatizing.

The bottom line? We already know why they are failing. We already know that the single biggest predictor of student failure is parent ses, not teacherS.

Of course, it's not the school district's job to eradicate poverty in the community it serves. That would be the job of those very politicians who prefer to blame schools and teachers, union-bust, and privatize.

Resources to address local poverty would go a long way. Resources to make the school the center of the community, open and serving people before and after the regular school day...but that would cost money. So would implementing most strategies that actually have a chance to make a difference.

It's not about helping the students or their families. It's about winning the war on public education began in the Reagan era, revived at the federal level by GWB, and now escalated quickly by Obama.

[Jennicut]

79. My husband used to teach and he had to do things like this already without extra pay.

I think these teachers could have agreed to it. It is not like they were paid $40,000 which is what my husband started at.

[PVnRT]

90. Do you people understand how "negotiation" even works?

You don't do it like the Obama administration, which is to ask for what you think you can get. You ask for more than you'll settle for, and start horse-trading. That's how it works.

Tell me this, is it the high school teacher's fault that the elementary and middle school teachers didn't get the kids prepared? If the children get to about eighth grade or so with the mindset of "I don't give a shit," there is precious little that can be done in high school to change that attitude. Or have you forgotten what it's like to be a teenager?

One of the "facts" you fail to mention, and has been pointed out by others numerous times, is that a state audit determined the school was making good improvements last year. If they were improving, why fire everyone now? Sounds to me like they were making progress.

It's funny how certain people on this site excoriate others for "wanting their pony right away," but somehow change their tune when teachers at a failing high school don't turn everything around overnight. What happened to things taking time and hard work to get accomplished? Apparently, that only applies to one's political heroes, and when one's political heroes are making a point to bust the teachers' unions and hand over schools to corporate interest, I guess it makes sense to have a double standard.

Oh, your hourly pay? Do you really believe teachers only work for 7-8 hours a day at school? Think again. Most put in plenty of time at night getting work done. That doesn't lend itself to simplistic analysis, however, so I guess it somehow doesn't count.

[Starry Messenger]

99. Great catch--this

"It's funny how certain people on this site excoriate others for "wanting their pony right away," but somehow change their tune when teachers at a failing high school don't turn everything around overnight. What happened to things taking time and hard work to get accomplished? Apparently, that only applies to one's political heroes, and when one's political heroes are making a point to bust the teachers' unions and hand over schools to corporate interest, I guess it makes sense to have a double standard."

[brentspeak]

98. The only source for the "$72,000 and $78,000 / year" figure is the person who fired the teachers

In other words, it's not a credible figure.

And you've already demonstrated your own complete lack of credibility on these boards countless times already.

[berni_mccoy]

100. See reply #47 above. And if you claim she is lying, prove it. Get off your ass

And call the teachers to find out their salary. Their salaries are public record too so they should be easily verified. Oh, and attacking me personally only jeopardizes your own credibility.

[madfloridian]

110. The school was improving and had been commended by the state.

Then they were fired.

"As it happens, Central Falls High School had seen consistent improvement over the past two years. Only last year, the State Commissioner sent in a team to look at the school and commended its improvements. It noted that the school had been burdened by frequently changing programs and leadership. With more support from the district and the state, this improvement might have continued. Instead, the school was given a death warrant.

Will it be replaced by a better school? Who knows? Will excellent teachers flock to Central Falls to replace their fired colleagues? Or will it be staffed by inexperienced young college graduates who commit to stay at the school for two years? Will non-English-speaking students start speaking English because their teachers were fired? Will children come to school ready to learn because their teachers were fired?

It would be good if our nation's education leaders recognized that teachers are not solely responsible for student test scores. Other influences matter, including the students' effort, the family's encouragement, the effects of popular culture, and the influence of poverty. A blogger called "Mrs. Mimi" wrote the other day that we fire teachers because "we can't fire poverty." Since we can't fire poverty, we can't fire students, and we can't fire families, all that is left is to fire teachers."

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/2010/03/ravitch-on-central-falls-massacre.html

[grahamhgreen]

118. I don't care how much they wanted, unless it was in the trillions like the banksters! nt