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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:17 AM
Original message
His name was Joe Stack
I won't defend what he did because there's no defense of it, but Joe wasn't a teabagger he wasn't left or right wing. He very obviously had some serious problems and it's a real tragedy especially for the innocent victims, but the manifesto was all over the board politically.
Joe played in my band for about 3 years and was mostly apolitical.
I hate what he did and had no idea at the level of dispair he was feeling.

I've now spent the last 30 hours answering questions about what he was like. He obviously cracked....severly, but any political militancy he had was recent and seems to suggest mental illness rather than activism.

Again I'm not defending what he did I'm just telling you what it looks like from my end.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Did you know him personally?
I really want to hear any insight his acquaintances, friends, co-workers and family members have to offer.

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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. yes
he played bass in my band for about 3 years.
as i've said over and again he was mostly apolitical...he did dislike GWB
he learned to fly when he lived in LA. he flew us to a couple of gigs in his plane
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Hate to say this but....
He sounds like many here except of course, those participating @ DU are political. Most here do not condone using violence to get our points across.

Too bad he felt he had no other choices left to him. Clearly causing the deaths of innocent people was wrong as hell and absolutely horrible.

I'm just really concerned that as the economic situation in this country continues to deteriorate, there will be more Joe Stacks out here.





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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
91. I have no doubt that there are more.
:(
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #91
100. +1
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
138. There ARE more Joe Stacks out there.
Edited on Sat Feb-20-10 01:25 PM by branders seine
I am alarmed at the level of anger I hear from people who were never particularly political before.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Did he vote for GWB twice?
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. Amy Bishop likely voted for Obama - do you want to claim her?
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. We have had instances of murderers who voted for Dems before
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 09:58 AM by NNN0LHI
I am not sure I understand what you mean by do I want to "claim her", though? Do you mean do I want to tell you what a great gal she was like some people are trying to get us to believe what a great guy this right wing murderer was? No, I don't.

I hope that answers your question.

Don
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #29
110. And what
proof do you have he was a RW? The OP just said that he was mostly apolitical. You can't blame everything on RW nuts. It sounds like he just snapped and caused a tragedy
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
128. did you even bother to read the OP?
He makes it very clear that Mr. Stack disliked GWB and was Apolitical. In other words, when he knew him, he wasn't interested in politics. And he DISliked GWB.

I don't see anybody trying to get you to believe he was a "great guy." Only that he was seemingly normal and apparently had serious problems going on under the surface.

Which is pretty apparent from his manifesto, some of the history of his life, and his last acts. At least for those who take the time and actually know how to read.

Frankly it makes a *lot* more sense to recognize that we are all human and that there a potentially a *lot* of Joe Stacks out there right now, ready to blow. Then to name call, dismiss them, and ignore the message they bring about how stressed our society is.

But, of course, that would take some effort and thinking. Come to think of it, change the rw to lw or arab, and the GWB to Obama, and you'd start sounding a lot like more like the other side than this one.

Oh, and btw, welcome to ignore :eyes:
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
64. wtf
The OP tells you he disliked GWB, and your response is to ask if he voted for him twice? Stop trying to hijack this thread and make it reflect your uninformed personal opinion. I'm grateful to the OP for sharing personal knowledge that's apinful but helps us get some insight into a tragic event, which the poster was under no obligation to do. I'm not asking you to be respectful of flying a plane into a building, but of the OP who whose information you seem too lazy to even read properly.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Bush's popularity plummeted in 2005.
It's possible to dislike Bush from 2005 onward and still have voted for him twice.

I'm not saying that if the killer voted for Bush it proves Republicans are bad or that if he voted for Kerry it proves Democrats are bad, but I understand the curiousity about his politics, since purposely attacking government workers is political.


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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. I see the point you are making. But I feel a bit differently about it
To me the characteristic thing about his rant is how incoherent and underdeveloped it is. He's not articulating any kind of consistent philosophy, he just thinks the world is out to get him via the IRS, greedy corporations and corrupt politicians etc. (sentiments which are widespread). He hates the whole system of politics and business itself and seems not to see or care about the difference between the main parties, or mention any contemporary politicians. If he was a teabagger you think he'd be optimistic around now since they're enjoying a growing political strength. He's obviously not a fringe leftie. He mentions his representative in the 80s, Moynihan...wouldn't surprise me if that's the last time he voted.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
83. Yes. Stack voted for Bush twice.
Complaining about Bush was just another case of Stack absolving himself of responsibility.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #83
111. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
104. ?????????? nt
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. I feel we should be done talking about him.
He killed people in his privet plane and left a wife and child behind.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
71. then be done.
nobody is forcing you to pound keys.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. It seems people like to pretend only people they dislike or disagree with can be violent.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. nope
what he did was very violent. but he wasn't any kind of political militant.
like i said from my end it looks like mental illness not activism
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
44. I think anybody that decides to kill someone is mentally ill...
Sane people do not murder.
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CubicleGuy Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
117. If all killers are crazy...
... what does that say about anyone who joins the military?
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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
98. Yep, mentally ill for certain.
Obsessive behavior to an extreme. He could not free himself from the obsession. I think I can understand that some people have such mental pain that they would rather not live anymore. For a variety of reasons and I don't judge their decisions. Many are physical and not mental at all.

It was the decision to harm large numbers of others that makes his act so horrific. I just wish that the tormented would choose to cross over and allow others the opportunity to continue life as long as they appreciate living.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
122. Most people see it as mental illness (period) In this country, we have it WAY too damn good
to kill ourselves for a political cause. And so it goes.
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AllHereTruth Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
123. +1
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. When did he play in your band? The early 70's? 1982?
How do you know he 'wasn't a teabagger he wasn't left or right wing'? Just curious.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. 2005-2008
i talked to him this past dec right before christmas.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. "Pilot spent months on diatribe that became his suicide note"
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/yahoolat...

Freaky. He was working on his note during the last time you guys talked.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
68. I wouldn't make too much of that...
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 12:15 PM by anigbrowl
For all we know he could have written one paragraph in a fit of gloom or drunkenness months ago (hence the creation date on the file) and then the rest might have come pouring out the the other night. The article implies (through loose wording) that he was working on it every day as if he was planning to crash the plane for months. There's no evidence for such a conclusion, though - all we know is that some months elapsed between the first and last time the document was saved.

So on the one hand you could have a guy who was at a slow boil for months on end, cold-bloodedly planning an act of terrorism/murder; on the other you could have a guy subject to occasional fits of rage/depression who wrote things down as an outlet, and one day fell over the edge completely. To assume one scenario or the other is speculative at best.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
114. I spoke with a friend of almost 40 years the night before he killed himself and I had NO clue.
None. He had issues with the government too.

Sometimes you just don't have any idea what's going on inside of people.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
125. he also said he was writing
as therapy. so thatbhardly makes it gosphel.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. He wrote a long manifesto and clearly planed out - premeditated using a plane as a bomb
to be targeted at a federal building.

Joe Stark, not unlike the murderer of George Tiller, MD, was a DOMESTIC Terrorist.

Albeit rambling, he left a long POLITICAL MANIFESTO.

He may have also been mentally ill, but NOT in a LEGAL sense ... not under "the law" because he knew what he was doing would kill INNOCENT people.
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ThomThom Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
77. I have to disagree. To me the definition of a terrorist is someone that
wants to strike terror in the hearts of specific group of people. The 911 perpetrators were clearly trying to instill fear. The killer of Tillman was trying to strike fear. The Oklahoma bomber was clearly a terrorist. The soldier at the military base that started shooting wanted revenge for a perceived wrong that was committed against him, like wise the professor Amy person was seeking revenge so they are not terrorists just very sick people that went over the edge and did something really bad. Shock and Awe as carried out by the Bush administration was terrorism, it was done with the specific intent to make the people of Iraq very afraid. This person yesterday was not trying strike fear he also wanted revenge for a perceived wrong. It is all about intent which is always difficult to know for sure. Yes horrible acts like this make people fearful but you can justifiably afraid and not be terrorized. We throw words around very casually and we need to be very careful. One of my biggest faults I have with G.W. Bush was the things he said after 911. They were meant to increase fear (for his own personal reasons)so he played right into the hands of the terrorists giving them more power than they deserved.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #77
94. Sorry, a bit lost here. Difference between Stack & McVeigh is what, eaxctly?
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 07:27 PM by Ruby the Liberal
Tillman = abortion foe
Bishop = employer issues

Stack & McVeigh = US Government

?
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ThomThom Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. Mc Veigh was a believer that as in the Turner Diaries that if he
got the ball rolling a revolution would take place . He was attempting to stir up hatred and fear and get people to over throw the government. Fortunately it did not work. The ideas in the book "The Tuner Diaries" was to bring down the government, one of their tactics was to intimidate the people of this country which is a terrorist tactic. I have not read the book but Mc Veigh was not acting on grudge per se he was trying to bring the government down. I agree it is a settle difference but I would call it terrorism as most people have all along.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #99
118. Stack wanted to wake up the "American Zombies" so they woud "revolt"
The only difference between Stack and McVeigh really, is the body count.
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ThomThom Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #118
135. Did he say that on his web site? I tried to read it and gave up.
I couldn't understand what he was saying. It looked to me like the ramblings of a crazy person. Kind of like a Sarah Palin speech.
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-22-10 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #99
139. Grudge
McVeigh was in part a grudge. He was present at Waco and his attack was I believe on the Waco anniversary.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #77
115. It would be helpful if you understood the definition of terrorist
According to the Oxford English Dictionary a terrorist is a person who uses violence and intimidation in pursuit of political aims.

Stack decided that violence was the only way to prove his point, to make his statement, to stimulate reform.

Violence is not only the answer, it is the only answer, declared Stack in his manifesto.

Use of violence and intimidation in pursuit of political aims.


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CubicleGuy Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
119. I think he got to the point...
... where he concluded that anyone working for the IRS was not innocent, and had it coming. At some point, it became completely personal with him, and it turned into a war, a war that demanded the ultimate sacrifice on his own part, in the hopes that people would also say "enough is enough".
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Frustratedlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. It appears he had been working the details out in his mind...
for a while to have done all he did in such a short time, as well as to write the piece that he left behind.

My sympathy to his wife and step-daughter. It appears they will be left with next to nothing.
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Tobin S. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. I don't know about the mental illness angle
It's rare for a person to become severely mentally ill when they are in their 50s. Stuff like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder usually develops in people who are 18-25 years old. It is possible that he just became mentally ill recently and it's also possible that he could have been ill since he was a young adult and never got treatment. But I think someone could be sane and commit a crime like this.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. "But I think someone could be sane and commit a crime like this."
On a LEGAL basis, I fully concur. He knew what he was doing at the time and his actions were pre-meditated and targeted civilians.

However, the unabashed bleeding-heart social scientist in me refused to believe him MORALLY SANE. I just can not believe that ANY human being can be considered "normal" when they volitionally decide to take another human life. I just can't buy into that on an emotional intelligence level.

At worst, Joe Stark is one compelling case study in social decompensation.

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CubicleGuy Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
120. Is that so?
I just can not believe that ANY human being can be considered "normal" when they volitionally decide to take another human life.

So, tell me: what do you think about abortion?
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. i know that
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 08:59 AM by griffi94
i have no idea how long he had these facets and kept them hidden.
i also know that any political militancy was recent and completely out of charachter. again i'm not defending him. he's a terrorist the same way the woman in huntsville al is.
there wasn't any ideology to joe altho he obviosly felt like he had been trod upon.
that doesn't bring his victims back
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
33. Do you not think being a long-term rabid anti-tax advocate is...
in and of itself, a form of political militancy?

His militancy began in the 80s, as he, himself, stated in his screed when he tried to scam the system and evade paying taxes, and carried through right up to, and including, his decision to use his plane to kill innocents to send a 'message', imo.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. you're right
he left a message...but had the woman in alabam screamed god save the queen when she went on her rampage it still wouldn't have been a political ideology, just the insane ravings a dangerous and desperate woman...same thing here. i'm not arguing that he left a long screed of insane rantings, but the overall theme was "it's not fair"
jmo but i think whatever dragons joe was secretly fighting just finally wore down to the breaking point.

i'm not pushing a "poor joe" argument, but for the last 20 hoursi've talked to a lot of people who want to use his actions to fit their agendas, and imo joe didn't have a real political agenda...he was just way past desperate.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #40
51. Where I disagree with you is where you say "he did not have a...
real political agenda", his "political agenda" was about taxes and the message he was sending was clearly to incite others to violence. If you mean he did not hold to a specific political ideology like teabaggers or repubs I don't disagree with that aspect although, imo, rabid anti-tax advocates tend to lean to the right more than left, more Libertarian than anything else.

His whole screed was, indeed, 'it's not fair' but I would add it was 'it's not fair that I have to follow the law and pay taxes, it's not fair that when I get caught cheating, I have to 'pay the piper'.

My sympathies lie with his family and the families of those he killed and injured.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #51
129. oh, so you knew him personally too?
Seriously...you're opinion is based on what you've read in the media. The OP *knew* him personally for 3 years. What makes you think you have *any* basis from which to argue?
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
87. I'm fighting this battle too, but at the other end
had my cousin been at the office, the body count would have been 3.

Getting sick of those playing the spin game so somehow the liberals get a "win" out of this.

dg
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
105. I read his manifesto
And frankly to me it read like he watched Faux news and listened to other bullshit press that wasn't/isn't all that accurate.

The thing was all over the place---railing on the corps and the wealthy (and BTW isn't a person who OWNS a private plane TYPICALLY wealthy by most standards?) but blaming Dems for the situation.

To me...it sounded like angry confused rhetoric (because he had himself completely buried financially) spurred on by BS from FOX news.

His act was deplorable and stupid, regardless and it accomplished less than zero.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
49. What people aren't getting is that when someone goes into a state like that
their brain fills in the blanks so that their behavior will make sense to them. Do we really know what he was doing in the 80s?
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #49
54. "Do we really know what he was doing in the 80s?"
Yes, we do, in his own words:

"My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early 80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having tax code readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful exemptions that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the best, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the big boys were doing (except that we werent steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.

The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two interpretations for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.

That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their freedom and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them."

I think he states quite clearly what he was doing in the 80s.



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. That it's written down doesn't make it necessarily true.
If as his wife reports, he has been increasingly unstable and if during the period of that instability, he was working at this document, doesn't that raise the question of the factual accuracy of what he says here? Of its veracity in shared reality?
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. One can speculate but the reality is we have his own words...
to disseminate what occurred in the 80s which was your question.

Going beyond his words and into what has been reported, he lost two businesses in California due to non-payment of taxes NOT due to any economic downturn, 9/11, the "health care crisis", due to his own actions in refusing to follow the law. Given he lost those businesses due to non-payment of taxes would seem to indicate his relating of what he was doing in the 80s was not a delusion but the reality.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Right, we have those words. My point is that those words
weren't handed down on stone tablets. They came from someone who was unbalanced when he wrote them and who was trying to make sense, literally, in writing that piece.

The narrative he created around the loss of his businesses was made during that time of imbalance In other words, his not paying taxes in the 80s may have very little to do with what was happening to him in 2008 or so. The non payment is real, the loss is real but how he processes those events -- as a justification -- is where this goes out of shared reality.

I guess it's possible that you'd have to experience this first hand. When my ex had an expisode -- and they could last for weeks -- he also always had a story to explain it. It was always someone else's fault, he was victimized and his actions might have been over the top but ultimately, justified by his situation. Those were the bones of the story, every time.

So, I'm not trying to be difficult here. It's just that people can be quietly psychotic. They can look fine and be in utter chaos inside. They can write clearly and powerfully, or give monologues in front of two hundred people or pet a kitten and you still really don't know what is going on inside unless you know how to look.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. You are speculating he was unbalanced in the 80s....
you have NO way of knowing that regardless of what you experienced with your ex, I certainly sympathize with what you and he went through but one's own experience is just that, unique to themselves and cannot be extrapolated out to all others, imo. I don't disagree his final act was one that might be described as quietly psychotic or the act of an unbalanced person if one were to speculate. My point is that in the 80s, he consciously chose to evade paying taxes and lost his businesses because of it. Refusing to accept responsibility for one's own actions does not automatically equate with being unbalanced, it is just as often the act of a self-absorbed, irresponsible person, imo.





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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. No, I'm not speculating at all about the 80s. I said, clearly, that the report is
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 12:15 PM by EFerrari
he was increasingly unstable during the period he wrote this document. That the losses and the non payment in the 80s seem to be true. But what he makes of those events all these years later is something else again. I'm saying that I can't take what he said now about the 80s at face value. That's not the same thing.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #67
73. Yet what he said he was doing in the 80s was borne out in his actions...
in the loss of his businesses through non-payment of taxes. If nothing else can be taken at face value, it strikes me that what he wrote regarding his actions in the 80s is the one thing in his screed that rings true.

Is it an possible for someone to be in a rage and commit horrible acts without being clinically unstable? I believe so. What we DO know is that Stack deliberately, and with forethought, chose to burn his house down, use his plane to kill as many innocents as he could to send a message in hopes of inciting others to violence. All else is speculation including his mental state, imo.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. HIs wife left the house with her daughter because she was afraid of him.
That's not speculation.

She had been telling her family about her alarm for some time. That's been reported, too.

But I agree with you that there is probably no way to know what was going on with him now.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #65
132. Additional note
I've encountered the anti-tax types mentioned back in the 80's myself. They engaged in these tortured interpretations of the Internal Revenue Code to justify not paying taxes. I felt it was a scam and a stalking horse for more militant rightist activities (neo-nazis) and avoided them thereafter.

It sounds like Mr Stack bought their BS and joined that cause by refusing to pay his taxes. The IRS can be overly heavy-handed when dealing with smaller fish like Stack who also usually lack decent legal representation when in front of IRS hearings. This heavyhanded-ness likely contributed to his mental deterioration, but the fact remains that it was his not paying his taxes that got he ball rolling, so he was no victim of anything but his own stupidity.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. But we really don't know that. We know that's how he told it before he
went on his rampage.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #58
109. Yikes! I'm scared for myself after reading that!
Edited on Sat Feb-20-10 12:40 AM by CoffeeCat
Aren't most of us more chaotic on the inside, than we reveal to others on the outside?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #109
136. Sure.
:)
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
72. No.
It sounds as if he were obsessed with the issue for a long time, but I noticed he wasn't railing about income tax being unconstitutional or some of the other fringe theories out there; his specific beef was that certain professions are treated differently under the tax code than others (which is true - the tax code is quite inconsistent that way, as are other areas of law, not least due to the influence of lobbying groups at different times). If his assertions about the specific numbers are true, then the amount of time he spent worrying over it was out of all proportion to the financial gain/loss involved.

Most people can take this in their stride. I'm self-employed, and there are tax things which make that a drag - for example, self-employed people have to pay the employer's portion of social security contributions as well, so it feels like you're paying it twice. The way to deal with this is to set your prices to reflect the cost of living, and contact your representative or publicize the issue if you run into a case where the system seems genuinely broken. This guy inflated a genuine but small issue into increasingly unrealistic proportions until it consumed his life and those of a few others.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. His reference to being a "non-citizen slave" is very much part of the anti-tax...
line of thinking:

"Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but its not very complicated. The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave. Twenty years later, I still cant believe my eyes."

Arguments used by anti-tax advocates:



C. Contention: Compelled compliance with the federal income tax laws is a form of servitude in violation of the Thirteenth Amendment.

This argument asserts that the compelled compliance with federal tax laws is a form of servitude in violation of the Thirteenth Amendment.

The Law: The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits slavery within the United States, as well as the imposition of involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime of which a person shall have been duly convicted. In Porth v. Brodrick, 214 F.2d 925, 926 (10 th Cir. 1954), the Court of Appeals stated that "if the requirements of the tax laws were to be classed as servitude, they would not be the kind of involuntary servitude referred to in the Thirteenth Amendment." Courts have consistently found arguments that taxation constitutes a form of involuntary servitude to be frivolous.

(All cases brought before the courts with this argument lost)

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=10650...

The actions by anti-tax advocates are very much a political act by their very nature, imo.



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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. Inform yourself. The basis of his complaint is in fact sound:
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/04/27/business/how-a-tax-la... <- note the date on this article - it is in fact a long-standing problem, and example of small legislative details creating unforeseen and unfair consequences for certain classes of person.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. I did inform myself, I read his screed....
He did NOT pay his taxes, was a rabid anti-tax advocate who tried to scam the system multiple times, got caught and decided to use his plane as a weapon, flying it into a building to kill as many innocents as he could to send a message inciting others to violence. It is quite simple. The fact he uses the "non-citizen slave" a phrase used by the rabid anti-tax advocates, one of those 'fringe theories' referenced in your first post, says he was more than a 'disgruntled' taxpayer, far from it.

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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #85
106. If you read it, then you have a comprehension problem.
His original beef was/is very legitimate, ad "non-citizen slave" is a not totally inaccurate phrase for a frustrated person regarding that specific law. But, go ahead and do whatever you can to use this to help a political agenda while arguing with a guy who knew him well that he had no political agenda. Clearly, you have a deeper understanding of him than the people who know him.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Poeple can have mental breakdowns at any time in their lives.
I know, I worked on a psych ward. I saw all ages, all backgrounds, men and women. Most of it was not schizophrenia. Something can just trigger it.
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Tobin S. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. I've been on a psych ward too. Three times as a patient.
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 09:21 AM by Tobin S.
And I've done lots of reading on the subject. When people become severely ill the onset is usually when they are young adults. They will then usually have the illness for the rest of their lives. So it's a good chance that the older patients you saw had been sick since they were young. I'm not saying that an older person with no history of mental illness can't get sick, only that it's much more likely to happen when people are young.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. I know. I suffer from depression too. And was a patient. I think it makes you more sympathetic
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 09:54 AM by Jennicut
to the people you try to help. I never went all the way and got my Masters so I could only do some counseling. I even take meds for my depression. I can say it started as a teen. I do wonder if somewhere along the line, Joe Stack had some issues that no one knew about. No one knows until I tell them that I have had depression and take medication for it and have since I was 20 years old. But it can lead to a breakdown later in life that no one so coming. Sometimes people are untreated for years, too. Many of his friends said it came out of nowhere. It makes me very curious as to what his younger years were really like.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. Joe Stack's history might help reveal a bit more...
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 10:33 AM by nc4bo
2nd wife said Stack was beginning to have serious anger problems for weeks...

that finally forced them out of the house Wed. night? The quote below said it was a frightening anger. I wonder how much information he shared with his wife regarding their financial problems?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/20111...


By the account of Cook, Stack was raised in an orphanage in Hershey, Pa., with a brother and sister, leaving the orphanage after high school to attend college. He worked as a software engineer in California, learned to fly and played guitar and piano for recreation. He moved to Austin, playing with a band and at informal gatherings.

In the mid-2000s, Stack met Cook's stepdaughter, the former Sheryl Housh, through musician friends in Austin. After eight months of friendship, they dated and married about three years ago. Both had been previously married.

Sheryl Stack, 50, listed in records at the University of Texas as a graduate student in music performance, brought her own strange back story to the marriage, having spent several years in the sway of a religious cult before her parents orchestrated a rescue.

In recent weeks Sheryl Stack complained to her parents of an increasingly frightening anger in her husband, straining the marriage, Cook said. On Wednesday night, Sheryl Stack took her daughter, Margaux, 12, to a hotel to get away from her husband. They returned Thursday morning to find their house ablaze.


Feelings of abandonment, depression or some sort of lingering anger aren't unknown to adopted children, right? He was raised in an orphanage, I wonder if he even knew or saw his mother or father? Who knows how he was treated while he and his siblings were there?

I'm having a hard time calling Joe Stack a terrorist - more like mentally disturbed.

Sorry for double cut and paste.

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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Well, that explains some things to me. He was about to have a full mental breakdown.
If he was raised in an orphanage and never even adopted and tried hard to become fully independent and self reliant, he could feel screwed over very easily as he had been kind of scewed over early in life. But, I don't want to say this all led to his breakdown without knowing how he really was in everyday life.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. he was born in denver
his parents died(he never said how and i never asked) when he was like 4 or so.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. There but for the grace of God.
That kind of anger is palpable. When my ex was cycling through it, I always knew that it was going to be a rough night when I got home from work and the dogs literally ran out the door and down the block to get away from it.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
43. Thank you. So SICK of all the Frists around this place. (nt)
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. Unfortunately, his little exit act is going to embolden the nut cases
and lead to more anti government threats and violence.

He may not have been a teabagger but what he did plays right into their hands.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
96. There's the point.
People can armchair psych all they want, but THIS is the reality of the concern that (at least) I feel over this.
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
14. His Name...
...is Robert Paulson.

His name is Robert Paulson
His name is Robert Paulson.


/obscure?
//hopefully not
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. the first rule of Flight Club
is not to fly your fucking plane into a building.

My sympathy to the OP for the loss of a bandmate/friend but sweet jebus.
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gmoney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
70. well, actually, it sort of was...
Project Mayhem? The ultimate goal was to wipe out the credit bureaus, IIRC. I think that's what you see at the very end of the movie accompanied by "Where is my mind?"

Not too far removed from what was in his suicide note...
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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #70
133. I was riffing on the motto.
Paulsen's death was unintended. Yeah, there is a Tyler Durden-ish mentality in that note....but killing people wasn't part of the fantasy. The movie deviated from the book's ending, which may be closer to the truth...the narrator was mentally ill.

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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
17. The teabaggers are getting a lot of coverage for acting out
Incoherent rage being their primary characteristic. That's no doubt having an unhealthy effect on people of all stripes, be they conservatives or not.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks for posting this. K&R nt
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godai Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
22. Do you know if he was taking any medications?
I believe that at least some of these off the wall crimes by seemingly normal people may be related to side effects of meds they are taking or even stopped taking. Even Chantix, used just to stop smoking, can cause suicidal tendencies.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
23. HE may not have been overtly political to you, but his last act in life WAS overtly political
It was a tax protest. Taxes are political. He made a political statement.

Plain and simple, Joe Stack was a political. It is an undeniable fact. He just hid it from people until he came out with a blatantly political act.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. well
it was certainly overtly desperate. railing against taxes is a pretty common. blaming all your woes on the tax man....the woman in alabama blamed all her woes on her co-workers. violent, yep. scary yep but no specific political ideology except "it's not fair"
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zaj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. "It's not fair" is a key principle of the Tea Party Protesters
I think it's perfectly fair to say that he didn't join the if he didn't join their groups.

However, he clearly shared his most passionate common cause with them.

He should have joined the relatively peaceful protesters of the Tea Party movement rather than commit an act of terrorism.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #35
127. "it's not fair"
is a key principle to a lot of groups including DU.
reforms for social justice are alway based on the principle of "it's not fair"
i'm not defending joe just saying that because he felt he was being persecured by the IRS doesn't make him a tea-bagger....which he wasn't
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heli Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
24. Profiler: Suicide Pilot Was 'Self-Loathing' Narcissist
http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/criminal-profiler...

Profiler: Suicide Pilot Was 'Self-Loathing' Narcissist

(Feb. 18) -- Joseph Andrew Stack, a disgruntled software engineer who police say deliberately crashed a small plane into a Texas office building, was likely a "self-loathing" individual who blamed others for his own perceived failures, a world-renowned criminal profiler said. Stack, 53, apparently set fire to his house before he flew a small plane into an Austin office building housing Internal Revenue Service employees. He is presumed to have died in the crash.

"A narcissist hates losing and then facing reality, so Joe vented his anger via a letter before killing himself," said criminal investigative psychologist Maurice Godwin, who has not treated Stack. The letter that Godwin refers to is a 3,205-word essay that Stack is believed to have posted online before the crash. In it, the author detailed his anger at the U.S. government and expressed his disdain for the IRS and what he described as the "monsters" of organized religion...

According to Godwin, these comments are strong indicators of a "pathological narcissist." "Narcissists hold others responsible for everything that goes wrong in their lives," Godwin said. "While the word may be overly used, this type of 'blame others' mentality is a sign of pathological narcissism." Godwin describes narcissists as "self-loathing individuals" who see themselves as "so great and smart" that they are unable to accept any responsibility for the negative fallout in their lives.

"It has to be someone else's fault, 'the world' or our 'government,' " Godwin said. "This was no doubt Joe Stack's personality. Joe Stack had no idea how he got into bad situations throughout his life, whether it was personally or financially. If you believe you're godlike, you must be perfect, right? Why should Joe Stack have changed his behavior for anyone else?" Godwin believes that until today, Stack closely guarded his true feelings from everyone around him. "Joe kept a secret deep inside. Besides blaming others, he was desperate that no one find out who the real Joe Stack was inside his tough outer shell," Godwin said, adding, "That outer shell broke today. He has no one to face anymore."
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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #24
46. I don't remember anybody profiling the Xmas bomber...
I'm just sayin'...
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
103. sounds kind of like the alcoholic/drug abuser personality
but I'm no professional, just sayin'
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
25. Just read a news story about his band and all of the members say the same thing.
Are you in the article?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35475336/ns/us_news-life/pa... /


He played bass in the Billy Eli Band, an Austin alt-country band, according to friends.
Michael Cerza, who played drums in the band with Stack, told the Statesman, My impression of Joe was a kind, quiet, not at all brooding or taciturn person.

I didnt sense anything boiling under the surface. There was no indication in his actions or his words that he would harm anyone.

Jim Hemphill, also a member of the band, said he was in shock.

I never saw anything like this in Joe, he said.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
48. yeah
i'm billy it's my band. joe quit playing with us a couple of years ago when i started doing more road gigs and the stuff i did at home was mostly duo stuff with the other guitar player
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
62. Hi, Billy.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
30. Dammit all to Hell:: Now we gatta suspect all eeps who act cool, nonthreatening, works ,
and in general, appears normal...

we now have to fear NORMAL...

thanksalot Joe.
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
31. I'm sorry you lost your friend, griffi94.
It's a sad thing when someone cracks like that.
He did a terrible thing, that's for sure.
There's no condoning that.
However, there is always a human face behind these acts.
Someone who is known and loved by others.
Thanks for coming forward like this, it's really kind of unique, in my experience.

There are people around here, as well as elsewhere, who are saying terrible things about this man, and speculating wildly about his motives. That's because people see the world through their own filters, and can't imagine that not everyone else is the same way. It sounds like Joe Stack was a fairly normal guy who got buried under the crap that is the world, and snapped. "Teabagger, Freeper, Terrorist..." People have to put labels on others, and I really believe it is a defense mechanism as much as anything else. Any one of us could lose our shit, under the wrong circumstances, and it helps people to think that they won't be next, if they can put a label like that on the someone else.

My condolences to Joe's family and friends for this terrible loss.
My condolences to those who were harmed by his heinous act...

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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Sorry, the guy tried to kill his family and then commit mass murder.
Furthermore, he appeared to be gaming the IRS and got in trouble for it. I have no sympathy for him.

"Any one of us could lose our shit, under the wrong circumstances, and it helps people to think that they won't be next, if they can put a label like that on the someone else."

Not me, friend.

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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Yes, you friend.
You could be next.
In fact, you sound like you are about to snap.
You really need to check your reactions.
You sound like you have a problem.

My condolences were not for the guy, but for his family and friends.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
81. Oh boy, amateur armchair psychiatry.
And free...worth every penny.

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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
89. His family wasn't in the house when he set it on fire.
I think your statement is a distortion. I also don't think he was trying to game the IRS, after reading from other independent tech contractors who had the same issues with the IRS - the system does appear to have been designed to extort money from them. I do have sympathy for his struggles in this area. Anyone who has been self-employed or run a small business knows how utterly rigged the tax code and regulatory environment is to favor large corporations.

However, murdering an innocent worker is obviously inexcusable.
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vegiegals Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. I do not agree that he should be labeled as any of these. It was


a horrible tragedy for his family/friends and labeling him so small.


"Teabagger, Freeper, Terrorist..."
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
52. well said
thank you very much for saying it
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The_Commonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. Certainly...
Try to have a good weekend.
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
86. Wondering if this is the OP's video.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #86
124. yep
that's from an album we haven't released yet
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reflection Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
53. Great post, Commonist.
That would make a good OP.
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alcina Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
63. Well said, The_Commonist. Thank you.
I suspect many here do not even recognize the inchoate rage that bubbles up through their own posts.

As EFerrarri said, there but for the grace of god....

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
92. so well said.
bravo.
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #31
112. Well said Commonist
my condolences to his family and condolences for the innocent victim's family and speedy recovery to those injured
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ChicagoSuz219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
39. I've been quoting you all nite re: him being 'apolitical.' n/t
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
42. So he was driven crazy by the fact that he had to pay taxes?
What a load of utter bullshit.

Fucking lame excuses.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #42
50. Or, it could be that as he was losing his stuff, he explained it to himself
that way.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
90. If you really are interested in knowing what his tax fight was about..
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 05:59 PM by girl gone mad
read this:

http://www.noslaves.com/content/joe-stack-suicide-note-...

It doesn't appear to simply be a case of trying to avoid paying any taxes. He was upset about a change to the tax code that added a layer of unnecessary bureaucracy to his business, which meant that he was paying 20% or more of his income to a third party that essentially did nothing but file newly required paperwork and later actively controlled who could or could not get access to contracts.

This in no way excuses his actions, but to characterize him as someone who was merely looking to get out of their civic responsibility is a bit unfair. I think this country is looking at some serious problems and many of them have been brought about by precisely these types of injustices, where industries control our government through lobbyists, shut out competition from smaller players and extort the middle class every which way they can.
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #42
113. Such empathy
wow you are so perfect
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nolabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
57. I'm so sorry for your loss. No one knows what was going on inside him.
One aspect of this tragedy is that he was so enigmatic and hid his illness well. It makes him a projective field for everyone's anger and anxiety, and people are going to try to make him fit their need for him to represent something. As a mental health professional I'd like to assure you that something went very wrong, and that it's next to impossible to know what it was now. If anything can be gained from this terrible thing, it would perhaps be the message, "If you feel so tormented that you have thoughts of suicide and violent acts, tell someone who will try to help you." Sometimes it's part of the illness that that's not possible.

Take care of yourself. It's not your fault for not seeing, and you're very brave to come here and say this.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. Well said, nolabear.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
60. Oh, man...
I am so sorry that Joe is putting you through all this. I hope the hubbub surrounding you is finally dying down.

:hug:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
66. I'm so sorry this happened to you guys, to his family and to the community.
My ex went right under the radar until he was almost 40. In fact, when I tried to describe what I saw at home, no one believed me at first, not even the psychologists. For the longest time, there was nothing I could do to make the situation better and I knew what was happening and I dialed that phone until my fingers hurt.

So, I hope you all understand that none of this was something you could have prevented. And that other people will try to explain it to themselves by using tags, by making up stories, because that's what we do when we're frightened. I'm sorry.



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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
78. my sympathy to you, nt
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NoFace Donating Member (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
79. Sigh...another 'I'm not going to defend Joe Stack BUT..." thread. NT
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. I guess you should have really read it
because it wasn't
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
93. sigh...
would be nice to actually read the OP before passing judgement.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #79
102. It really helps to read.
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griffi94 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #79
126. i didn't defend him at all
i just stated that all the hoopla about whether he was a tea bagger or a left wing nut was crap. he wasn't a seething with anger government hating loner living in his uni-bomber style shack. i've had 2 days of people who didn,t know him or anything about him and still wouldn't had he not snapped, telling me what he was like and what he thought and what his motives were.
i'm not going to speak to why he popped his cork but he wasn't like the media, and for that matter some here say he was.
to all of the folks who want to tell me what he was like...well sorry but ya'll don't know goose shit from tapioca. you can argue with that all you want but given that i'm the one who knew him and worked with him i think i'm in the better position.
i just read where some of the extreme rw nuts are trying to make him a hero. joe wasn't rw so their hero, were he still here, would have probly gotten a laugh out of that.
sorry if it seems like i teed off on you, but watching people try to assign an agenda to fit their own beliefs has gotten quite stale in a very short period of time.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
82. when americans have paranoid fantasies, they often revolve around the government
...while asians obsesss about their extended family & ancestors. Depends on the culture and what it reveres, I guess.

The man was acutely mentally ill in his last days.

His daughter & wife don't deserve this.
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DisgustedInMN Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
88. Whether Joe Stack..
... was a "terrorist" (whatever the fuck that means these days) or insane or just plain pissed off and raging about, in the end means jack. I'm sorry for his family and his victims.

But seriously, I have little doubt that unless there are some huge changes in the direction this Nation is headed, acts of desperation such as this are likely to become commonplace. The fuse is burning and getting shorter and harder to put out with each passing day.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
95. And there you have it
Everyone from Neocons to Marxists have been trying to label him.

I doubt whether he knew himself what ideology he was trying to project.

He's more a victim than anything. But we don't celebrate victims who seek to destroy.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
97. I am sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing.
This has to be an undescribable time for you.

Prayers and light for all those in his world that he left.
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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
101. It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 08:47 PM by LatteLibertine
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
107. Due condolences on the loss of a friend, but his writings disagree with you.
He talks of a lifetime of "unlearning" what he had been taught about laws and society, and he describes decades of political involvement in trying to get around paying taxes, using just about every "It's someone else's fault" excuse he can think of when he's caught. That doesn't gibe with mental illness, or an apolitical personality, or someone who just cracked. His rage came from a lifetime of trying to cheat the system and failing, and rather than simply taking his lumps, he began to blame everyone but himself. None of those close to him seem to have known about his views or his problems, either, which indicates he was more worried about how he was perceived than about his ideology. He still had an ideology, though, and it drove him to murder, and an attempt to murder even more than he did.

He may have been likable, and may have even been kind in some situations, but that doesn't make him a decent person. If he were mentally ill, I'd have sympathy for him. If he had gone through real personal tragedies, such as sudden deaths of those close to him, I could empathize with him cracking. If there was something behind this other than a self-absorbed need for revenge because of his own failings, I could feel some sympathy. I'm a very sympathetic person. But this time I can't. His sufferings were not great enough, and self-imposed, and his actions were out of proportion to anything he suffered. He killed innocent people, and tried to kill more, because of his own failures and a need to blame others for them. Ultimately, that's not a good person.

None of that means I don't accept your feelings, and I'm sure you are struggling to understand it all. It's a sad, tough thing to come to grips with. Sincerest condolences.
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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
108. I will say thank you for your insight
It was interesting.
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
116. His name was Robert Paulsen. nt
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Lindsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #116
121. My sympathy to you, griffi94, and to eveyone concerned....
I'm of the belief here that he wasn't "political" in the sense that most of us think of being politica. It's clear that he was having major issues with the IRS and I think that even the most liberal of the liberals can have major issues with the IRS. I think it's crazy to be calling him a tea bagger for God's sake - maybe he is but all that I've read doesn't give me the sense that he was. I feel he was so mentally distraught that he completely snapped and this is what he did. Obviously, people who "completely snap" should leave the innocents out of it but then they aren't really thinking too clearly, are they? And I agree with one of the other posters (I can't remember who) who said we could all snap at any time given a particular set of circumstances It can be like a perfect storm. However, I think that most people who snap really do usually take their own lives and do leave others out of it. When mass murders occur, obviously, and rightly so, that's where all of the attention goes. My heart goes out to the people in the building who were just doing their jobs. Once again, I'm very sorry that this happened, griffi94. As I said earlier, my heart goes out to ALL involved and yes, even the perpetrator's family and friends....just a tragic, tragic situation. :-(.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
130. I guess that's what happens when people feel betrayed by life?
Always leave a person with something, or he/she will have nothing else to lose!
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anachro1 Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
131. Who cares of his last hours?
He should have killed himself in his burning home.
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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-20-10 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
134. Sounds to me like one of those guys who keep making........
the wrong choices and can't figure out why shit keeps happening to them. I see it all the time and it eats them up. One thing that is consistent is that it isn't their fault.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-22-10 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
140. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
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