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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:26 PM
Original message
here's the Manifesto of Joseph Stack -- "Mr. Big Brother IRS Man" - RE Austin plane crash
http://www.businessinsider.com/joseph-andrew-stacks-insane-manifesto-2010-2

If youre reading this, youre no doubt asking yourself, Why did this have to happen? The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time. The writing process, started many months ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that there isnt enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really broken. Needless to say, this rant could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it. I find the process of writing it frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless especially given my gross inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in my head. Exactly what is therapeutic about that Im not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

We are all taught as children that without laws there would be no society, only anarchy. Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was no taxation without representation. I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a crackpot, traitor and worse.

While very few working people would say they havent had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind. Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say.

Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when its time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours? Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this countrys leaders dont see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political representatives (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the terrible health care problem. Its clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people dont get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.

And justice? Youve got to be kidding!

How can any rational individual explain that white elephant conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system? Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly holds accountable its victims, claiming that theyre responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand. The law requires a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if thats not duress than what is. If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is.

How did I get here?

My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early 80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having tax code readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful exemptions that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the best, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the big boys were doing (except that we werent steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.

The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two interpretations for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.

That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their freedom and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.

Before even having to make a shaky recovery from the sting of the first lesson on what justice really means in this country (around 1984 after making my way through engineering school and still another five years of paying my dues), I felt I finally had to take a chance of launching my dream of becoming an independent engineer.

On the subjects of engineers and dreams of independence, I should digress somewhat to say that Im sure that I inherited the fascination for creative problem solving from my father. I realized this at a very young age.

The significance of independence, however, came much later during my early years of college; at the age of 18 or 19 when I was living on my own as student in an apartment in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker. Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement. Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement. All she had was social security to live on.

In retrospect, the situation was laughable because here I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time. When I got to know this poor figure and heard her story I felt worse for her plight than for my own (I, after all, I thought I had everything to in front of me). I was genuinely appalled at one point, as we exchanged stories and commiserated with each other over our situations, when she in her grandmotherly fashion tried to convince me that I would be healthier eating cat food (like her) rather than trying to get all my substance from peanut butter and bread. I couldnt quite go there, but the impression was made. I decided that I didnt trust big business to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself.

Return to the early 80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a wet-behind-the-ears contract software engineer... and two years later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706.

For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section 1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax purposes. Visit this link for a conference committee report (http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommitteeReport) regarding the intended interpretation of Section 1706 and the relevant parts of Section 530, as amended. For information on how these laws affect technical services workers and their clients, read our discussion here (http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml).

SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.

(a) IN GENERAL - Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:

(d) EXCEPTION. - This section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. - The amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986.

Note:

"another person" is the client in the traditional job-shop relationship.

"taxpayer" is the recruiter, broker, agency, or job shop.

"individual", "employee", or "worker" is you.



Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but its not very complicated. The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave. Twenty years later, I still cant believe my eyes.

During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my pocket change, and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they universally treated me as if I was wasting their time. I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity. This, only to discover that our efforts were being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their freedom. Oh, and dont forget, for all of the time I was spending on this, I was loosing income that I couldnt bill clients.

After months of struggling it had clearly gotten to be a futile exercise. The best we could get for all of our trouble is a pronouncement from an IRS mouthpiece that they werent going to enforce that provision (read harass engineers and scientists). This immediately proved to be a lie, and the mere existence of the regulation began to have its impact on my bottom line; this, of course, was the intended effect.

Again, rewind my retirement plans back to 0 and shift them into idle. If I had any sense, I clearly should have left abandoned engineering and never looked back.

Instead I got busy working 100-hour workweeks. Then came the L.A. depression of the early 1990s. Our leaders decided that they didnt need the all of those extra Air Force bases they had in Southern California, so they were closed; just like that. The result was economic devastation in the region that rivaled the widely publicized Texas S&L fiasco. However, because the government caused it, no one gave a shit about all of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to shore up their windfall. Again, I lost my retirement.

Years later, after weathering a divorce and the constant struggle trying to build some momentum with my business, I find myself once again beginning to finally pick up some speed. Then came the .COM bust and the 911 nightmare. Our leaders decided that all aircraft were grounded for what seemed like an eternity; and long after that, special facilities like San Francisco were on security alert for months. This made access to my customers prohibitively expensive. Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of the airlines with billions of our tax dollars as usual they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY! After these events, there went my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.

By this time, Im thinking that it might be good for a change. Bye to California, Ill try Austin for a while. So I moved, only to find out that this is a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance and where damn little real engineering work is done. Ive never experienced such a hard time finding work. The rates are 1/3 of what I was earning before the crash, because pay rates here are fixed by the three or four large companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages and this happens because the justice department is all on the take and doesnt give a fuck about serving anyone or anything but themselves and their rich buddies.

To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and retirement, the last of which was a small IRA. This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of income. I filed no return that year thinking that because I didnt have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed. But they didnt notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out. Bend over for another $10,000 helping of justice.

So now we come to the present. After my experience with the CPA world, following the business crash I swore that Id never enter another accountants office again. But here I am with a new marriage and a boatload of undocumented income, not to mention an expensive new business asset, a piano, which I had no idea how to handle. After considerable thought I decided that it would be irresponsible NOT to get professional help; a very big mistake.

When we received the forms back I was very optimistic that they were in order. I had taken all of the years information to Bill Ross, and he came back with results very similar to what I was expecting. Except that he had neglected to include the contents of Sheryls unreported income; $12,700 worth of it. To make matters worse, Ross knew all along this was missing and I didnt have a clue until he pointed it out in the middle of the audit. By that time it had become brutally evident that he was representing himself and not me.

This left me stuck in the middle of this disaster trying to defend transactions that have no relationship to anything tax-related (at least the tax-related transactions were poorly documented). Things I never knew anything about and things my wife had no clue would ever matter to anyone. The end result is well, just look around.

I remember reading about the stock market crash before the great depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything. Isnt it ironic how far weve come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesnt have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and its business-as-usual. Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get to die for the mistakes isnt that a clever, tidy solution.

As government agencies go, the FAA is often justifiably referred to as a tombstone agency, though they are hardly alone. The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government. Nothing changes unless there is a body count (unless it is in the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough). In a government full of hypocrites from top to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws.

I know Im hardly the first one to decide I have had all I can stand. It has always been a myth that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isnt limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants. I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after. But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change. I choose to not keep looking over my shoulder at big brother while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual wont continue; I have just had enough.

I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are. Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasnt so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer. The cruel joke is that the really big chunks of shit at the top have known this all along and have been laughing, at and using this awareness against, fools like me all along.

I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, lets try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.



The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.



Joe Stack (1956-2010)

02/18/2010



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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. wft -- unrec'cing? it's the bomber's own words for chrissake.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Perhaps because it's been posted more than a few times already. (nt)
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. sorry -- i looked but didn't see it.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I also don't believe it has been authenticated...
This could all be a sick creation of someone.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. local Austin media are now claiming it's authentic. MSNBC reporting.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yes.. I see that... (that was quick)
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. Definitely a Rightist Republicrat Liberommunist
He had a strong start, but when he asked his other personalities to contribute, it fell into pieces all over the map.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. it's a confused mess of anger.
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SixString Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. Response from Cheney,"The Dick" in 3... 2...2...1...
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 01:55 PM by SixString
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LeftinOH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. In other words, 'life is tough, and frequently unfair'. NO SHIT. Shoulda been on medication.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Again with the mental illness crap.
The guy was unable to handle frustration... that does NOT make him mentally ill.
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LeftinOH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. I take therapy & medication to handle stress and manic depression; it really works..furthermore,
sometimes "it takes one to know one". This was not the work of someone who has suffered from stress and disappointments (that happens to lots of people); he needed help.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I take therapy and medication too.
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 02:41 PM by redqueen
I don't mistake that for a degree in psychiatry, nor an ability to magically diagnose someone based on a manifesto and attempted murders.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
52. Generally speaking...
anyone that needs to write a manifesto and then go on to try and kill someone then himself, usually has a host of problems. His actions do not read of someone of rational thought.

Given his screed and, at times, rambling nature of his his note, aka blaming everyone else for his problems rather than taking responsibility for his own actions, he blames them for the violence that he was about to create.

That is not a sane mind.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. People play fast and loose with terms like 'mental illness', 'crazy', etc.
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 05:02 PM by redqueen
There are lots of people who are for all intents and purposes incabable of any significant degree of rational thought ... this does not mean they are therefore 'mentally ill'.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. wow, just wow.
comparing people who display irrational thought to a guy who slams a plane in to a building full of innocent people as being the same...wow, just wow.

You know, I'm not at all angry with you, but you are now blocked, because your "rational thought" process, scares the living shit out me.

And I know you will reply to me because everyone on DU, including myself are massive ego maniacs who feel the need to get the last word it. I have at it, but know that I will have no idea what you wrote. :)

Cheers!
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. i think you missed what RQ was getting at...she's not advocating Stack...she's saying that
it's common that people think they can determine someone's mental health from the news. the very next thing that's usually pointed out (which redqueen didn't say, but i will) is that by claiming he was insane is to some degree absolve him of responsibility. like, "oh, he was nuts, he didn't know what he was doing." well, clearly he knew what he was doing -- he wrote extensively about it.

i don't think it's necessary to karate chop in all directions wrt to this event. it's an epic tragedy and people really need to discuss it. i hope we at DU can keep our discussions civil and open b/c that's how we rise above the rest.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Precisely - mental illness absolves one of responsibility for their actions.
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 06:08 PM by redqueen
That is most definitely the implication. Thank you for getting it. :hi:

This guy planned this very carefullly. He was very aware of what he was doing, and he knows very well that it was evil and wrong, but he did it anyway.
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condoleeza Donating Member (464 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #68
85. How many people could any of us "certify" as sane?
While I certainly don't condone what he did, I can still understand what led him there. Maybe that makes me insane, which would put me in good company with most people I know.

If you've never been on the receiving end of the IRS and all the means they have to show you that you have absolutely NO power, then you can't understand how someone could do something like this. Reality is that he was right, if he was the only one to die then nobody would have paid any attention to what he had to say. He has an audience now.

The US and it's interests kill people every day and I know we talk about it here on DU, but unless it touches you personally it's real easy to just bitch about it.

Do something. People are dying every day all over the world.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #85
95. Yes, the absolute worst thing in the world is having the IRS hound you for money.
I totally believe that. Really.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #68
90. weirdly inconsistent that JM had such trouble with this concept.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #90
106. There seem to be quite a few people who are having trouble with it.
At least in relation to this particular event. Odd.
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seeinfweggos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
93. then you are taking the wrong meds. you need the crime solving ones nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Great... yet another Dr. Frist.
:eyes:
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I don't know if you can prozac the worlds' unfairness away.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
53. True, but therapy would have helped, but only would have helped
if he was open to it. Alas, many unstable minds are not open to it, so they go undiagnosed.

The guy was a loon who couldn't get over the fact that he owed taxes. He blames everyone else for the poor choices he made in his life by claiming "big brother" is after him.

Anyone who resorts to violence to settle a unfounded score is, in my opinion, not stable in the least.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
9. I have a different view of this than the many of you who have posted your take
on it on this thread.

I think he presented his case well, lucidly (except a little more explanation about Bill Ross and the piano may have helped), and has expressed what many of us here on DU have expressed: Anger at the injustices done to the American people, frustration at the unwillingness of our government to help us, and helplessness at the realization that we ultimately have no power.

He speaks for me.

Imagine that this is a fed-up DUer posting a rant -- it could likely be recced on to the Front Page.

I'm sorry that it reached the point where it became too much for him to handle.

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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I agree. There are many points made
that I read on DU everyday. The guy snapped. He was unstable, but not unjustified in his frustration with the system.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. we all have our beefs with the system...
the guy was a nut. resorting to violence to solve a problem automatically disqualifies any beef he had as being valid.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. do you think this was a terrorist act?
b/c i really do. i think this is no different than what Timothy McVeigh did. He used violence against the government, intending to propagate his ideology. i'm pretty amazed that this isn't being called a terrorist act.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. damn straight I do. crazy doesn't absolve one from being a terrorist.
It seems to only help.

Cheers!
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. just seems weird that Obama/Gibbs is downplaying it.
i think this is clearly a political/terrorist event, and by not addressing it as such, i'm afraid there's the opportunity for Glenn Beckian copycats. i'm astounded that it's being left dangling like some sort of "normal" office massacre.
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
81. The system continues to create Timothy MvVeighs so,
maybe we need to ask the question why rather than chalk it up to the guys just a "nut."

why does our culture create these angry people that violently act out mass murder/suicide.

It's becoming almost a weekly event that someone breaks down and commits mass murder.

We live in a very unhealthy culture. We are a militaristic country that solves it's problems by

killing people.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. i'm leaning in that direction after more careful reading -- there is a recent
"To The Best Of Our Knowledge" episode where Chuck Klostermann reexamines the Unabomber manifesto, and says some of the same.

I'm actually struck at how there's "something for everyone" in it. Teabaggers will agree with some and disagree with some. I think that honest DU'ers would have to agree with some and disagree with some too.

At first I was struck with the specificity of it, and wasn't making any sense of that. But, backing up and taking it all in...there's some familiar themes.

But, I think it will be difficult for the right or the left to say that what he writes is alien.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Absolutely
and there are thousands more decent, hard-working, disciplined people in this identical situation. He snapped...it's very sad.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. i think there's something particularly stressful about trying to be an indie software engineer...
well, i KNOW there's a very special stressfulness about trying to make it on your own, period. but, from what i've seen, it's been particularly hard on software people who've gone from being fairly (well) paid, to, not being able to find work.
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stranger81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. +1 [n/t]
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. Frustration
I can understand the frustration illustrated in the piece he wrote. I don't agree (certainly) with his actions, but some of what he writes is basic. I have concern and compassion for the people whose lives he scarred today, including his own family.

Although I'm certainly no "tea bagger", I do see and understand a growing frustation in this country by the voters who are repeatedly ignored by the politicians who they put in office. Most of us are able to handle this frustration rationally. Some, I suppose, such as Mr. Stack, are not.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. i'm actually amazed at the level of rational discussion wrt the manifesto
in this thread. there really are some basic ideas in his note that many DUers would find familiar. there's also some basic ideas that your garden variety DUer would disagree with. so, like most things in life, this note he left behind isn't black and white -- which his actions certainly are.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. He may speak well, but his act does not speak for me.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
77. I would dare say his act doesn't speak for any of us. I'm simpatico with his
frustrations and anger, that's all. :shrug:
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #77
91. wow...well said. i've been dancing around using that word all day...
simpatico...with the frustration/anger. it's really that simple.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
73. Agreed. I thought it read well, and familiar. Only difference, most of us just hit the
POST button. Very sad, indeed.
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. He doesn't sound like a Tea Partier...the line at the end about capitalism
is too insulting.

Sounds like he's just a nut.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. Actually, I thought his remarks about capitalism
was the theme of this entire piece - and what I have been seeing over and overagain in DU postings -

The middle class is going under and it's no longer about racism - we're experiencing class warfare.

If this whole episode doesn't illustrate this I don't know what does.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. you're right -- his remarks are laser-focused on capitalism. er, the brand of capitalism
that's practiced currently.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. He didn't fly his plane into some financial district...
it wasn't like he emulated whoever it was in Greece that bombed a banking giant.

No, he went after the IRS. That's meaningful.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. yep -- i think you're right.
that he targeted the IRS has to be the defining characteristic. as things are shaking out, it looks like the extreme right wing is embracing his actions based on the targeting of IRS...and prolly based on some dog whistle language that we're only now starting to understand...thanks to the new poster from NY downthread.

while we've been remarking on some of his most broad notions of power, there's a whole ugly world of Glenn Beckian madness that seems to be awakening.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. Yes but unbridled capitalism has led to the current tax structure; enforced by the IRS.
The IRS are the most immediate "bad guys", they're the collectors.

I could be wrong but I believe when the Income Tax first came in to it's modern existence, it was targeted at the mega wealthy, the millionaires of their day. Unbridled capitalism via lobbying aka; legal bribery has led to continuous loop holes, complexity and outs for them at the expense of the middle class.

Having said all that I don't agree with his actions but I understand where he's coming from.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. and now with Citizens United, all the rules are off the table. pure "bribery capitalism"
-- just heard anna marie cox say pretty much the same thing on Ratigan's show.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. 'From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed'
Wow
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. this could have been written by any number of DUers.
except for the crashing part.

this man is not nuts, he's saner than most.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. so he's a leftwing terrorist?
Is DU gonna claim him the same way we would try to pin him to FR if he leaned a little bit to the right.

I don't know if I would call him sane. Angry at churches being tax exempt, he tried to start a fake church so he could get out of paying taxes and then got all mad when he couldn't get away with it.

I stopped reading his self-indulgent sob story about 1/3 of the way through. If you get mad and kill people at random, then I am not gonna take your ideas that seriously. He doesn't deserve the publicity we are giving him.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. i agree with both "sides" of this...i can't nod at the destruction...and yes, there's cogent
passages in the manifest (in the last third, actually). is he a leftwing terrorist? i don't think so...it's more like a massacre killing. like, going postal with a plane.

also, it seems to me that anyone who goes this epic with their grievances, is crazy -- by definition.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. there's two sets of crazy as well, like the two sets of laws.
crazy like Joe
or crazy like the ones who wage wars and kill and maim in scores, rob, steal in massive amounts so large that there really isn't a definition for it if you must include robbing a 7/11 of a chocolate bar...

gullibility depended on by the greedy, paraphrasing. the first is unforgivable the second is just an accepted way of life.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. yep -- two kinds of crazy for two separate classes, along with separate rules for those classes.
Paul Fussell's book called "Class" also outlined something that might be relevant...he said that the middle class is defined by fear of losing what they've worked so hard to achieve. that, the middle class hangs on for dear life, and that makes us naturally more conservative. we don't want to rock the boat, lest we fall out.

seems to me that Stack got knocked out of the boat more than once. that, he was able to dust himself off the first couple of times, but not the last time.

i also wonder, since he was an indie contractor, he prolly didn't have healthcare...so, even if he knew he was having bad, destructive tendencies, he might not have been able to do anything about it. not that most healthcare covers mental health, but i know that many will at least get you in the door.
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. some of his beliefs appear here many times over.
I don't find it self indulgent, I find it sad and hopeless and desperate - like so many people are feeling now and have been for a long time.

and as far as the church example you give - that just proves a point he is making. there are 2 sets of laws, one for the powerful and another for the rest of us slobs - I can't see disagreeing with that one.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. Albert Camus
I don't have the exact quote unfortunately but the gist of what he observed is at some point people reach a level of understanding of the meaning of life and when they do, they either rebel, turn to religion or go crazy..."He who despairs of the human condition is a coward, he who has hope for it is a fool." Camus
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. How many DUers are members of
"the constitution says we don't have to pay taxes!" groups?
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. I don't know. Nobody knows.
you can't assume people are all being transparent here. One can get jumped on for a lot less of a statement - you may think we are free to say what we like here, but we really aren't - there are rules to be followed made by the Admin and there are the societal rules to be followed made by the members.

there's a lot of anger about taxes not going to the proper places here - maybe some of those don't pay taxes. How do we know?

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
70. I would imagine most here are in favor of a better social safety net.
Not paying taxes sort of makes that impossible.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #70
103. So was Stack
He even wrote about it.

And he didn't say he wanted to pay no taxes.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. That was not my interpretation. (nt)
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. Then try just reading his words rather than "interpreting."
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. I did... and the part about refusing to pay taxes?
Edited on Fri Feb-19-10 05:09 PM by redqueen
Those aren't the words of someone who wants a better social safety net.

Those are the words of someone who wants to join the crooks, not stop them.

He didn't lament the plight of the poor... or criticize the unjust wars... he refused to pay his share of taxes, and decided to kill innocent people when he couldn't get away with it.

Those are the actions of a murderous asshole when he finally accepts that he won't be keeping his $200K house and his private plane... due to his tax evasion schemes.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. and so he sets his house on fire with his kid and wife in it?
this man needed good doctors and meds badly...
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Hmm. Source?
His house was set on fire but I never heard anything about his wife and kid actually being inside at the time of fire.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Here:
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. msnbc reported that a neighbor ran over and got them out. f'n epic.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
55. This guy was crazy. period.
There are many here trying to defend his screed, but whatever point he tried to make ,that those DU'ers agree with, they are automatically nullified by his violence.

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. eh -- there a big difference btwn examining what he wrote and "defending" him...
some people have said that *some* of the things he wrote sounded familiar, or "resonated." I've held that there's more grey than black/white in his letter.

i really appreciate that there's been a decent amount of rationality here. that's the difference btwn DU and any other place we might gather on the internets.
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TalkingDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
107. And if you take that stance to it's logical conclusion,
then nobody passes the litmus test of: people whose ideas fall into perfect alignment with their actions.

Every human, even Obama, does something that directly nullifies a morally upright stance they take. That's why the Constitution is such a brilliant thing. It is not a person, with frailties and flaws, it is a document of ideas, separated from the base qualities of mere humanity.

Joe Stack was no Jefferson, nor a Washington, nor Adams, but the themes he touched on are valid:

-the middle class are having the fruits of their labors stolen from them and the upper classes are benefiting directly from the theft.

-there is a disconnect between what we are indoctrinated to believe about the values America is supposed to stand for and the sad reality of how it treats it's citizens.

-even with the promises made to those most vulnerable in our society, they system we have developed continues to leave many of them helpless even as it helps those who do not need it.

-our tax system has become Draconian in it's complexity. This complexity serves the rich and connected. It has never served the weak and helpless.

- as long as we continue to accept what is happening, it will keep happening. I do not believe that means we have to employ violence. And that is where Joe Stack's actions diverge in coherence from his thinking.

Now, I have made the same points Joe Stack made. Are they still nullified by his violence or can you accept them as valid ideas in their own right and separate them from their base beginnings?
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
30. Anyone have some knowledge of the tax issue he talks about?
Can anyone give some insight that doesn't come from this guy or his given references?

Return to the early 80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a wet-behind-the-ears contract software engineer... and two years later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706.

For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section 1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax purposes. Visit this link for a conference committee report (http://www.synergistech.com/1706.shtml#ConferenceCommit... ) regarding the intended interpretation of Section 1706 and the relevant parts of Section 530, as amended. For information on how these laws affect technical services workers and their clients, read our discussion here (http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml ).

SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.

(a) IN GENERAL - Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:

(d) EXCEPTION. - This section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. - The amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986.

Note:

"another person" is the client in the traditional job-shop relationship.

"taxpayer" is the recruiter, broker, agency, or job shop.

"individual", "employee", or "worker" is you.



Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but its not very complicated. The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave. Twenty years later, I still cant believe my eyes.

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. i'm no accountant, but this passage seems to be a simple definition of taxpayer.
anyone else?
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. No, it has something to do with how technical workers are treated...
...vis-a-vis federally mandated benefits and such dependin on if they are counted as employees or as contractors. At least, that seems to be the "ballpark" of the dispute. I was hoping some of our people here might have more insight as to what effect this law had.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. yeah -- that's exactly what i mean. it seems to have defined his status as
having more tax burden than what he felt was fair.

sorry for not having an expert answer, but am hoping someone with more knowledge will chime in.
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NoProphetNYC Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. contract worker versus employee
It effectively says that contract workers are not employees so they are an exception to the regulations covering employees.

Nuts who lean toward paranoia seem to read this as though it says contract workers are exceptions to citizens and are therefore "non-citizen slaves".

Murder suicide is pretty awful. Murder suicide because you're a guillible idiot is just pathetic.

No Prophet
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. that's what i thought... and thanks for the insight on the "non-citizen slave" thing...
that's exactly the kind of "dog whistle" stuff that i think i'm missing in this whole thing. a lot of us are reading his note and finding some things that basically resonate. but, i think there's a whole level of pseudo-libertarianism that we aren't recognizing prolly b/c we're not familiar with the language.
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NoProphetNYC Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
40. Garbage
Let's see if I can sum it up:

I decided early on that I was a victim of government and business and needed to make it on my own.
I met some effectively illiterate people who gave me nutty ideas about law which led me to believe I was a "non-citizen slave".
I spent $5,000 & 1000 hours writing protests rather than working.
I got laid off, lost my house, got divorced and lost my retirement.
I started to see all sorts of hobgoblins to blame. Dot com bust. 9/11. And this rage grew inside me as I started to believe that the government was conspiring to bail out everyone else with MY MONEY!!
So I moved to Austin and found it to be too competitive. And I'm certain this is the fault of big corporations and the Justice Department.
So I spent all of my savings and canibalized my retirement. I didn't file an income tax return and since I'm very suspious of government anyway and know I can't work things out with those thugs I decided to pay a $10,000 penalty.
I got remarried. My wife had unreported income. I kind of hoped my new accountant wouldn't notice. He didn't. SCORE! I got audited. It's that accountants fault. Now I have new penalties to pay and I am certain that if this happens to rich people they don't have to pay.
I'm certain that my life has been destroyed by rich people, by government, by businesses, by labor unions. Everywhere I look I see a "big brother" hallucination. I have had enough.
I'm going to martyr myself and I'm going to kill people who work for the IRS and hopefully this will be the trick to save the world from all those big chunks of shit who are laughing at me and eating all my money! Here's your pound of flesh, big brother. We love you Glenn Beck. Keep up the good work.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. Bingo!
An excellent analysis, imo.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. this is really helpful...i couldn't make heads or tails of his taxes/accountant spewage...
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
57. That's pretty much the Cliff's Notes version.
Sounds like he got hopelessly confused about the Sec 1706 20 Questions Rule and just never, ever got over it.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
69. Exactly. (nt)
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
65. "drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year"
Easily could have been a member of this forum.
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LaydeeBug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #65
80. even a stopped clock is right twice a day. nt
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
67. Just read a report that the FBI is trying ot take down the guy's website,
so tis best to grab a copy of the manifesto while ya can.
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godaddy Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Re: FBI is trying ot take down the guy's website
dixiegrrrrl: "Just read a report that the FBI is trying ot take down the guy's website"

Forgive me but wasn't that exactly what we want "China's FBI" to stop doing, taking down sites and filtering email of people opposing the government?
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #71
89. Guess the FBI figured some people would make the guy a martyr.

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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
72. He sure blames a lot of people and takes no responsibility.
A quick read pulled up that it's the fault of:

-- The IRS for having rules
-- The L.A. depression of the early 1990s
-- The .COM crash
-- 9/11
-- The three or four large companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages
-- Not reporting $12,700 worth of income
-- Poorly documenting his business transactions
-- etc, etc, etc...

But none of it is his fault.

He sounds more like Sarah Palin or George Bush than a liberal to me.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. i've worked as an indie contractor, and never felt like i could just not report my income
and, i've never felt like my failings were the result of larger trends. they always FEEL like my own. so, while some have been quick to suggest that he was "nuts" i'm not ready to say that b/c insanity would be another form of abdicating responsibility for him.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
74. He owned a plane.
and a house.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. like, really. and, he had his own business, etc etc. that's some amount of material success.
more than i've seen. maybe the only way he was able to acquire that stuff was by ripping off the IRS.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Yep. And that takes a fair chunk of change...
...more than I have.

Not surprisingly, that part doesn't come through in his screed. It'd undermine his martyrdom if it were too obvious he was closer to the "rich incompetent cronies" than to the majority of Americans (especially ones like the 80-year old steelworker's widow he mentioned).
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
79. I took the time to read the whole thing
this guy, whatever he was, was NOT a "teabagger" and NOT a freeper.

Now when the wealthy fuck up, the poor get to die for the mistakes isnt that a clever, tidy solution.


That is not a sentiment likely to come from right-wing politics.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #79
86. he actually reminds me of many of my high school buddies who think they're
libertarians...but, really they're pot-friendly liberals who vote republican b/c their parents vote republican, and have no real sense of politics beyond bitching about taxes. when you scratch under the surface you find real populist outrage, but they think the GOP is the party that speaks for them. i don't know for sure that's who Stack was...just saying his writing reminds me of these guys.

i don't want to draw Stack into our fold, but i also don't think it does anyone any good to completely dismiss him. i wanted to be very careful in keeping this thread going...in that the "down with Stack" people didn't use it to bash people who want to discuss the contents of Stack's suicide note. i think it's a remarkable document of American anger...er, narcissistic conniption fit throwing(?). it's definitive of something...i'm just not sure what.
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Anonymous Insider Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
82. here's an old embeddedart.com Web site
While doing some searches for Embedded Art and Joe Stack, I found this information:

Embedded Art is a small independent software house, specializing in process control and automation. In its current form it represents the culmination of 20 years of experience in the software development consulting business. Founded by Joe Stack in 1983 (under the name of Prowess Engineering) in Southern California, the company thrived for 15 years until shifting focus to the Sacramento area to take advantage of growth in the Silicon Valley.

Now, 5 years later, the expertise of Embedded Art has landed in the Austin Area expecting to lend a hand to the growing high technology industry in South-Central Texas.

The concept behind the success of Embedded Art is that we provide the experience and muscle for addressing complex software engineering development tasks. Much of today's programming is a step-wise refinement of previous development projects. With 20 years of experience, we provide the expertise that can effectively navigate around many of the pitfalls that snare the unseasoned engineer (indeed, we've seen many of the same mistakes made again and again by the inexperienced).

More at http://www.anonymous-insider.net/advocacy/research/2003/embeddedart.com/home.htm

Appears to be legit.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. nice catch...and thanks for adding it here!!
welcome to DU!
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Anonymous Insider Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Thank you.
Apparently you were the first to find the link between embeddedart.com and today's sad event.

So I thought DU readers may find interesting to know more about that Web site and the people behind it.

Best regards.

AI
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. home sick today and started googling as soon as it happened...
there were a couple of other threads here, but i think they might have gotten locked. i kinda babysat this thread to keep it from becoming a flame fest.

more cough syrup! :evilgrin:
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Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #82
88. Keith's guest just said he didn't pay taxes on his business in California
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 10:27 PM by Born_A_Truman
and twice had his business license revoked there.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. ah...so, that's why he left CA.
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Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. Yes, he had two different companies in CA
suspended by the SOS for not paying taxes. The bill was a little over a grand.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #99
102. that seems a paltry sum to shutter a business over...i've had library fines nearly...
er...lets not go there. :evilgrin:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
96. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. hey...being articulate isn't a requisite.
i have to say tho...you'd do well to edit out mention of r'volution. it's one of the big DU no-nos...and that comes from way above Skinner, et al. That'll bring hurt down on any forum that allows it, and I doubt your post will last very long b/c of it.

I wanted to reach out tho, b/c while i dig the emotional appeal of what you wrote, i think you should seriously consider what it means to be a hero, and what it means to be a terrorist. not all cries for justice are equal...and heros act out of selflessness, rather than personal vendetta. this guy might have hit some notes that resonate, but does he really stand out as a "hero"? is he on the level of Rosa Parks, Norma Rae or any number of third world justice workers. heros act in the service of others...not for revenge for their retirement account.

I totally grok how someone could project their own frustrations onto this act and see some sort of heroism in it...but trust me...this isn't that.

rather, this is a serious tragedy that has an interesting/challenging postscript in Stack's suicide note. some of what he wrote about frustration and wanting justice, resonates with people on both sides of the American divide, and that's what's seriously challenging. Teabaggers are actually embracing him, and I say have at it. We don't need that tarbaby. He's doesn't speak for us. We don't need lone wolves. We need a real (boring!) labor movement. We need serious organization outside of the two-party system (again, attached to labor...or issues). Boring...but effective stuff.

This country doesn't need another bloody revolution. We need a real, boring organization of people work together for positive change.
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Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. Sorry, but he is a POS
Saving my sympathy for his victims.
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MSchreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #96
100. This guy was no hero
Or communist, or even a leftie. He was a whining yuppie who chose killing himself over the prospect of being pushed into the working class. Read between the lines. Go past the rant and look at the politics. Stack was a dispossessed "middle class" small business owner who tried to get over and got caught -- not once, not twice, but three times. And when he finally faced the reality of his situation, that his future was having to actually get a real job and work for a living, he chose to burn his house down (leaving his wife and child homeless) and crash his plane into an IRS building (possibly killing dozens of public employees who never even knew who he was). This isn't about revolution. This is pure reaction, courtesy of a reactionary populist. Screw him. I hope he survived the crash long enough to burn in the fire.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #96
101. All outrage isn't equal
First, I can understand how someone could connect with a general sense of American disfunctionality, but 1) This guy chose to send his message by trying to kill innocent people, including his wife and child, as well as how ever many office workers he didn't even know, which takes him irretrievably out of contention for anyone's justified admiration. Heroes don't set their house on fire with their family inside or kill IRS workers. And 2) the nature of his particular rant, although couched in a lot of superficial "little guy vs. the world language," essentially boils down to a complaint about . . . taxes he felt were unfair. Arson and suicide attack are not the heroic response to tax complaints no matter how heartfelt.

I do think there's something good going on in this thread, which is that it's been acknowledged we can look at this guy's motives and discuss them at all. There's a lot of angst out there, and we can't afford to just ignore it. But it is also right to condemn the violence here. This response to perceived injustice is exactly the kind of raging self-indulgence that damages democracy rather than improving anything.

Finally, a completely non-judgmental warning. The general notion of "revolution" is a cherished theme in this country, as a metaphor, and a remembrance of our history. It's rightwingers losing sight of that distinction and hinting at violence in their juvenile pain over losing an election, and we don't want to join them in that mistake. It's also very, very illegal. Don't do it.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #96
104. Calling him a hero is disgusting. Making a call for violence is totally unacceptable.
He was a troubled man. Many of the things that troubled him were indeed troubling. But that doesn't make murder/suicide ok.

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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-19-10 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
108. He should have done something meaningful to change things, not kill people, if he was upset.
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