In Utah, a plan to cut 12th grade -- altogether

[Swede]

This is what's called swirling around the drain.


Is it a waste of time? Are students ready for the real world at 17?

For student body president J.D. Williams, 18, the answer to both questions is a resounding no. "I need this year," he said, adding that most of his classmates felt the same way.

The sudden buzz over the relative value of senior year stems from a recent proposal by state Sen. Chris Buttars that Utah make a dent in its budget gap by eliminating the 12th grade.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-utah-school15-2010feb15,0,906102.story

[Hawkeye-X]

1. A plan to cut 12th grade

[krispos42]

58. You beat me to it!

:rofl:

[DrDan]

2. another great idea from the right

rather than raise taxes to fund education . . . simply trim a grade.

Brilliant.

[annabanana]

3. astonishing... I guess that "book larnin'" just doesn't look

cost effective to them. Tell me, is there any shortage of doctors in that region? Any other professionals who they expect to have some edumacation?

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. Just more of the right wing war on education

[Jackpine Radical]

5. Well, Buttars stopped learning long before the 12th grade, thereby

proving that it has no value.

Q.E.D.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

52. +1

[prolesunited]

6. Well, I guess if the highest ambitions you have

for your state's students is to work at Walmart. I guess they really want the U.S. to win the race to the bottom.

I graduated 1 semester early because I had taken advanced classes and had a rigorous schedule, not because they required less of me. Nevertheless, I feel like I missed a lot by doing that. I can't imagine skipping a whole year.

[Travis_0004]

7. Their logic is 12th grade isn't needed, since seniors slack off

But if you got rid of 12th grade, students in 11th grade (which would now be considered seniors), would start to slack off, since they are now in their senior year.

Then 5 years from now we can say that 11th grade isn't needed, since students don't pay attention anyway.

[itsrobert]

12. Exactly

Typical republican. Only think about today.

[Kber]

48. It that's really their logic, mayby they should add "grade 13"

If you made it the equivalent of first year at a good community college, you'd really give your kids a leg up when they when to University, both in terms of "book knowdedge" and maturity.

[Heywood J]

67. I can speak to the fact that it does give kids a better start for university

Especially when it's free. Unfortunately, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Academic_Credit">OAC was scrapped a few years ago.

[phantom power]

8. circling the bowl

[Warpy]

9. Believe it or not, it's a step in the right direction

I tend to favor the European model in which students get a general diploma at 16 and an academic, pre university diploma at 18 or 19. It makes a great deal more sense for academically untalented students to get them out of academics and into a work/apprenticeship situation rather than forcing them to hang out for an extra two years of boredom.

The reason we have such an appalling dropout rate is our insistence that students who have no interest in or aptitude for academic study soldier on to the bitter end.

[Robb]

17. I agree BUT

I love saying that. :D

...BUT we can't take this step on its own, without the pre-uni diploma system in place ahead of time. Otherwise we're simply shortening the education period for everyone.

[Warpy]

22. That's correct

The cost savings would come in by having the much smaller academic class for the last 2 years, possibly attending less than full time but with fewer teachers and more centralized learning centers.

The savings would also happen for kids who would get their general diplomas and be considered high school graduates, no longer relegated to ditch digger, farm hand, busboy, baby sitter, housekeeper, always with the word "dropout" clinging to them.

If what you're doing has a 40% failure rate (the dropout rate in a lot of areas), then you need to consider doing something else.

[liberalmuse]

25. Only that our entire education system were modelled on Europe.

It's so appalling that we can't afford to cut a year. I wish this nation would revamp it's outdated and substandard education system. It's been long, long overdue for a complete overhaul. :(

On edit - For grammar. :eyes:

[Warpy]

32. HAHA!

I love rereading a post on education, only to discover I've made an appalling spelling or grammar blunder.

It always seems these posts are prime candidates for doing so. :blush:

[JackintheGreen]

28. You're absolutely right

We need to better prepare students for life after high school, not for university. There should be no shame attached to labor, but our system inherently inveighs against it, while strangely and at the same time denouncing educated 'elites'. Let the kids who shouldn't be in college (for whatever reason) leave *that* system early and move into vocational training that will get them the skills necessary for a decent job.

And the kids don't have to be academically untalented. Just uninspired. I cannot tell you the number of PhDs and lawyers and whatnot around me who drive trucks and fix cars because they prefer to.

[Warpy]

31. NM is the land of the PhD carpenter

so you're not telling me anything new. A lot of kids get pushed into doing something they have no interest in by well meaning parents and most don't rebel against it soon enough.

Somebody needs to start asking the kids whether they're happier doing things with their hands or reading about them in books.

[havocmom]

34. If more people actually looked at what goes on during 12th grade in many schools,

they would likely see the wisdom of your post! In just about every school I have watched in the past 3 decades, 12th grade is less and less about school and more about party time, with too many non-academic events promoted insisted upon too often by parents who live vicariously through their teen-ages.

We haven't done a swell job growing up here in the US.

Coupled with three decades of wingers on school boards, cutting graduation requirements as a means to the end of cutting local taxes, that 12th grade year is often just for show.

[JVS]

38. Not when there is no pre-university diploma

[LWolf]

40. If we had a work/apprenticeship program to put them in,

to guarantee them some job training.


We don't.

[annabanana]

44. Well that might be nice if we had a manufacturing base

to hire the "academically untalented".

[Warpy]

51. They can still do more with a HS diploma

than without them. It's the difference between minimum wage and maybe a dollar or two more at most jobs. It also allows them to enter trade school if they can afford to with an eye toward working a skilled trade.

It's just incredibly stupid to keep them until the age of 18.

[Hannah Bell]

54. and the jobs? youth unemployment at a post-ww2 high, over 50%.

[Warpy]

59. They're separate issues

That general diploma will make it easier to look for a job than no diploma and the label "dropout" would when and if the economy finally improves.

I'm not trying to fix the whole economy here, I do that in other posts. I'm suggesting something that would help kids, help the schools, and make more sense for the country here.

[Hannah Bell]

68. putting more bodies into the labor pool at this time (& laying teachers off as well) = not wise.

[montanacowboy]

10. That is what the Right Wants

more uneducated to vote their way - less of that edumacation and more religon

I have a better idea for them to save even more $$

After 8th grade everyone is guaranteed a job at Walmart!!! Yeah!!!! Lifetime employment

[hayu_lol]

15. Short a year of high school by national standards...

might be a tremendous boost for the colleges and universities in Utah...only they will accept the grads(11th grade).

Give them Mormons an extra year of missionary work.

[Demoiselle]

21. Remember what Karl Rove said:

"When they get educated, we lose them."

[jmowreader]

55. Retailers don't want those people

This is glory time for retail--all the old people who have to work at Target, Lowes or wherever were chosen OVER kids because kids just out of high school come to work late repeatedly, screw off when they're there and complain all the time. Older workers have at least a little bit of work ethic.

[jody]

11. The 12th grade was not added until the early 1950s in some states. Today many students finish high

school having already completed a number of college courses.

IMO the 12th grade has been overtaken by such events and some students might need more than 12 grades to master the very basic concepts of high school whereas others might benefit from college level courses in their early teens.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. I could have graduated a year early as could my daughters

Its not that hard to meet the graduation requirements for US schools.

The suggestions for the European system have one fatal flaw for the US. By and large we do not place students on tracks for early and have eliminated most vocational education from our schools for cost reasons. There is no place to go academically except college

Then there is the "if you didn't go to college you ain't shit" attitude that many have. Its both prevalent and a serious problem, though many degrees have little or no value in the real world. Instead a substantive number of students would be better off to be in trade schools or training programs rather than the local JC. Its a waste of their time and college resources.

[jody]

36. Agree! n/t

[MidwestTransplant]

13. Maybe they should try tax cuts to help close the budget gap?

[no_hypocrisy]

14. The loss of an extra year of English, composition/writing, history, foreign language, and science

would have an impact not to mention that loss would compromise college admissions.

[piratefish08]

16. Fuck. Can't they cut 7th grade and keep 12th?? 7th grade sucked.......

[indy legend]

18. I don't know what else I can add.

Every time I think the right has reached a new level of stupidity they prove me wrong. Naturally they want to cut education. It's the only way to perpetuate the right wing species. We can't have educated kids. Who will become the next generation of corporate slaves, tea-baggers, fox news viewers, and just all around stupid ass republifux? I am amazed the the dumb asses in Indiana haven't thought of this yet. But then again this Indiana. They will jump on this as soon as Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh tells them it's a good idea.

[kestrel91316]

19. No big surprise. When I lived there, the culture didn't support

education beyond HS. I think about 6 in my JHS class went on to college.

[Common Sense Party]

20. Buttars is absolutely insane. Even the far-right repukes ignore him.

[msongs]

23. the football/athletics departments will kill this - high schools are run by football coaches lol nt

[liberalmuse]

24. That would certainly be a good thing for the Mormons.

The boys could be sent off on missions and the girls could start pumping out babies earlier. Education is not necessary in a right wing helliverse.

[RedCloud]

47. And Utah should charge a fee on those who have multiple bed partners!

More than one man and woman getting frisky in the same room. $50 per person per occasion.
Hogging all the women $50 per extra partner per day.
Not leaving enough females to males ratio and thereby encouraging homosexuality to get one's rocks off yet protesting against the very thing you helped create:
$1,000 per homosexual act per anti-homosexual church in the state of Utah 'til you shut up about it. Includes tourists who go there to commit homosexual acts just to "stick it to" the mormons.

That should get their economy financed out of the hole.

[Alias Dictus Tyrant]

26. Buttars? Or as he is also called: "Professor Chaos"

[wolfgangmo]

27. NOTHING happens in Utah without the input and approval of the Mormon church

So what would they hope to gain from dropping 12th grade?

First they would get an earlier start on mission work (AKA free labor for evangelical efforts). Look for the typical 2 year mission to be lenthened to 3 years. More girls would have less education and without 12th grade they wouldn't be going to colleges in this country so look to more Mormon young ladies being religated to pink ghetto jobs, marriage (perhaps polygamy is about to make a comeback in the "mainstrea" mormon church) and baby production.

[Arugula Latte]

41. Good points.

And scary.

[erpowers]

29. Kids Do Not Actually Need The Grade

I am not trying to say that I think the 12th grade should be eliminated nationwide. I would never propose such a thing. However, I do not think kids actually need a 12th grade. What about kids that graduate high school early? Each year there are numerous kids who actually graduate school a year before they were supposed to finish. In addition, for some kids they only take one real educational class during their senior year. It seems that for some kids the only real class they take during 12th grade is their last English class. Other than that they are taking fluff classes just so they can get enough credits to graduate or just because the school does not want kids going to school for half a day, walking around the school halls, or just sitting around school doing nothing. Therfore, there are a number of kids that do not actually need a 12th grade.

I think there a few things that could be done to replace the 12th grade. Allow students to finish their required courses early then let the kids choose from a few options. The first option would be go to trade school to get a trade. The second option would be work for half a school day. Finally, the third option would be take college courses, that are transferable to a larger college, at a local community college or junior college. It seems the third option would require the state government work to assure that all community college and junior have courses that are transferable to four year universities.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. I agree with this sentiment more or less

The college preparatory curriculum basically takes three years. Senior year is generally a bunch of AP courses (college level courses) or electives.

I'd say that students who have successfully completed their coursework through the junior year should have the options you state above. Those who struggle academically (and many do for a variety of reasons) can use the senior year for remedial courseowrk. This system would also give students an incentive to try and do well in their courses their first three years so that they can have more choices their senior year.

[mwooldri]

30. Yep, cut 11th and 12th grades - both of them.

Those who are bored of school at 10th grade - let them "graduate" "junior high" and then instead of going to "senior high" go instead to a "vocational college".

Those at "Senior High" are then prepped for University.

This is what happened to me... and if you're clever enough you go to a university that gives you a bachelors degree - with honours - in 3 years.

The other solution that would work in cutting costs in the American school system is to get rid of the notion of "grades", re-name them Years (Kindergarten would be called Reception Class - Year 0 doesn't sound right to me) and streamline the classes according to academic ability and yes, at some point even gender. It would then be possible to graduate the lower years from High School a lot sooner, the higher Years would be more concentrated to help them close their knowledge gaps, and either steer them towards a more vocational career path or a more academic path. So there would still be years 11 & 12 but less teachers and resources would be required as there would be less of them. Those who graduate early would then be able to apply to admission to a university of their choice, and the University can either admit them straight into Freshman Year or if they choose to do so and make the resources available, a pre-freshman year, eligible for Pell Grants and Student Loans. Whilst this would save the government money, it would just shift the burden of the cost of education to the student who would now have to finance an additional year through college, or be extra smart and pile on the credits all at once.

[SoCalDem]

35. I would prefer mandating 2 ADDITIONAL years after 12th grade

High schools should team up with local community colleges and add two extra years of education.

More and more kids are finding themselves wasting precious college money on remedial classes once they DO go to college. No wonder it takes many students 5-6 years to graduate from college, or why so many just give up on college.

But, in Utah where Mormons rule, and where having 14 kids before age 30 is the goal for many, I can see why they advocate getting an early start :eyes:

[anonymous171]

37. But State Universities would not like that.

[SoCalDem]

39. Based on the rising costs, they may not have much of a say

Soon, rich foreigners will be about all the universities will be able to attract. More and more people are being priced out of college, so every bit of education they can get via public education, the better:)

[Darian]

43. I was there the day he proposed this at the Utah legislature.

On behalf of Student Government and Journalism at my high school. Buttars is someone that even the most far-right pubs despise, how he continues to win reelection I do not know. I am a senior this year and I don't know what in the world I would be doing if I would have had to leave after last year. It's completely crazy.

[Hepburn]

45. Why not just marry all the females off at 14...

...and do away with HS all together for females. After all, who the hell needs an education to be the 30th Sister wife?

[old mark]

46. Why stop there - how much school do you need to work in a laboring job

that does not exist anyway? Stop public schooling in Utah at 8th grade, let the rich attend private schools and all others work for the rich.

Another problem solved by politicians.


mark

[Stevenmarc]

49. Who needs school when you have magical underpants

[stillwaiting]

50. The working class right wing people I know absolutely HATE education

Hate it with a passion that rivals their hate of immigrants and gay people.

[anonymous171]

53. That makes some sense when you realize that Education is THE most classist insitution in existence.

[reggie the dog]

64. how is education classist?

we all benefit from studying our history, studying the arts, studying foreign language, or studying science. I even had shop class where they taught everyone who did not already know how to use tools like drills, saws and such. I learned how to type at school and that is good for people of all social and economic classes.

[LynnTheDem]

56. Yes, make more Americans even dumber! That's the republican way of life!

Coz republicans, like all rightwingnuts, are the dumbest MFers on the planet.

[struggle4progress]

57. Buttars got 23717 votes in 2000 (5231 votes more than a majority, beating 2nd place by 12161)

21866 votes in 2004 (5021 votes more than a majority, beating 2nd place by 10044), and 19,766 votes in 2008 (175 votes LESS than a majority, beating 2nd place by 1780); the 2008 race was 3-way (like the 2000 race) which accounts for his sub-majority 2008 win

These data suggest his support is flowing away. Between 2000 and 2004, he lost 1851 absolute votes and 2117 of his winning margin; between 2004 and 2008, he lost another 2100 absolute votes and 8264 of his winning margin

If folk continue to work to publicize what he says and supports, he won't survive 2012

[alp227]

60. I'll join in this whole song and dance of more education choice rather than cuts

It's really dumb how Republicans cut n' gut education all the time (and say dumb things too) yet complain about a lack of morality and intelligence in society.

[earth mom]

61. Have to admit it's a good way to save schools money. Plus 12th grade seems to be a wash anyway.

30 years ago, when I was in 12th grade, I only went a half day and was free from 1 pm on. I remember feeling like I was spinning my wheels and wanted to get on with my life but was trapped by the system and really just spent the year waiting for my graduation ceremony in June. I would have loved to have been done with it all much sooner.

[KamaAina]

62. How would Utah students get into college?!

What a :dunce: !

[KamaAina]

63. Oh, go back to South Park, Buttars

[KonaKane]

65. Chris Buttars is a nazi dumbfuck.

Who has been on the "cutting edge" of the most small minded, backwoods and lunatic legislation offered up in the Utah Capitol - which is really saying something!

He is one part of the state I most certainly do not miss.

[exboyfil]

66. Everyone is slamming Utah as uneducated

but they are 12th in the nation for percentage possessing a Bachelor or above. It is a strange idea given that we consider 18 to be an adult. Actually parents are obligated in my state to support their children through their senior year even if they have already turned 18 (which a majority of kids do in their senior year).

In my state they have a couple of different programs. One is the PSEO (post secondary enrollment options) which allows students to take college classes that are paid for my their home district. The condition is that the comparable course not be offered at their High School. Of course that gets into the definition of comparable course (ie AP courses, dual enroll Community/Junior College courses). Before the budget blow up they also passed Senior Year plus which was supposed to codify college credit as a senior.

In general college prep students use their senior year for college credit. For example
AP Calculus (at least one semester and sometimes two semesters)
AP Chemisty (same as above but not accepted at all our state schools)
AP Biology (only accepted at one state school)
AP History
AP Psychology
AP English

We also have dual enroll courses such as
Non-Calculus based Physics (two semesters)
Sociology
Statistics
and several others

I guess some could argue why is the school system funding these courses to reduce college tuition costs when those who benefit most from the courses are, on average, above the median income in the state? Would that money be better spent on more remedial and more vocational types of training? Push the college prep kids out as seniors and make them or their parents pay for that freshman year of college. Of course since my kids are going to benefit from these courses, I do not feel that way, but it could be an argument.

High School graduation requirements keep getting pushed up in our state. Now it is 4 years of English, 3 years of Science, 3 years of Social Studies (including Economics), and 43 semester hours over 8 semesters (5.4 courses/yr on average). Kids can have up to 8 classes at once. For exampe

English
Math (sometimes two at a time with Statistics)
Social Studies
Science (sometimes two at a time to get all the college prep in)
Foreign Language
Music
Art/Graphic Arts/Intro Engineering/Business etc
PE/Health

If you want any shot at merit money, then you better be taking as much as you can and going as far as you can. Otherwise you are looking at a $40K+ debt by the time you are done as an undergraduate.