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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 12:22 PM
Original message
The Damage Done By Gays In The Military
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/uk-faced-gays-mili...

BBC News has the results:

When the UK took the step of allowing gay men and women to serve openly in the armed forces 10 years ago, public opinion was in favour but the armed forces themselves were not. The situation is very similar in the US today.

Landmarks

Some 10% said they would leave the armed forces if gays were allowed to serve openly. Large-scale resignations from the UK armed forces were widely expected in some quarters, when the ban on gays was lifted - but in practice they did not materialise.

At least one British army brigadier publicly resigned in protest, citing "strongly held moral and military convictions" but most observers were surprised at how smoothly the new law - which was forced on the UK government by the European Court of Human Rights - was implemented.

"There was this expectation that there would be problems, but it just didn't happen. People just got on with their work," said Dave Small, who was in the Royal Navy at the time, but now works for the Stonewall Diversity Champions Programme helping the three armed services to adopt best practice in the area of sexual diversity.

--
Fears that allowing openly gay soldiers to serve on the front line would lead to a breakdown of discipline and cohesion within units also proved unfounded.

--

British Security Minister Lord Alan West, a former head of the Royal Navy, told the Associated Press in July 2009 that allowing gays to serve openly was "much better".

"For countries that don't do that - I don't believe it's got anything to do with how efficient or capable their forces will be. It's to do with prejudices, I'm afraid," he said.

The damage: It turns out there is none
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. We won WWII with gays in the military. nt
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JohnnyBoots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Alexander conquered most of the known world with
an army where gays served openly. It is debated whether he and his main companion were lovers or not. They specialized in hand to hand combat too, tough bunch.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. Just another instance of conservatives being wrong.
Edited on Thu Feb-04-10 12:25 PM by redqueen
Always fearing change, always expecting the worst... and often using threats and coercion to try to get their way.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Almost makes you doubt their credibility, doesn't it?
So many hypothetical catastrophes lurking behind every progressive change to society. Many of the most horrible events the conservative mind has had to endure never happened at all, and yet the poor dears persevere to save us all from ourselves. With such a record of imagined problems, you'd think they'd lose all credibility in the face of real actual problems that have occurred or are occurring. But you'd be wrong. Nothing that actually happens can be anywhere near as bad as what conservatives will conjure up as the inevitable consequence of change, even if it never happens.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. This issue is one of many where the pre-implementation hype...
...is four orders of magnitude higher than the actual effect.

Comprehensive sex ed.

Marijuana legalization.

Raising speed limits.

Issuing concealed-carry permits.

Marriage equality.

Gay couples adopting.


Etc., etc., etc.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
4. Happy to K&R!!! eom
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Shandris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. Jon Stewart said it best last night, although my memory only paraphrases.
"What, are they afraid that if we allow gays in the military they'll go to Afghanistan to redecorate?"
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Betty Karlson Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Or this classic:
"I can't shoot him! He's gorgeous!"
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Why are we so backwards on gay rights? I don't get it
Is it religious bigotry? Something else entirely?
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Lucy Goosey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. But wait, there's more...
Gay Canadians have been able to serve openly in the military since 1992, and the story is much the same. Last year, the Canadian Forces had recruiting booths at the country's biggest Pride parades.

Study Finds Gays Do Not Undermine Canadian Military Performance
* The percent of military women who experienced sexual harassment dropped 46% after the ban was lifted. While there were several reasons why harassment declined, one factor was that after the ban was lifted women were free to report assaults without fear that they would be accused of being a lesbian.
* Before Canada lifted its gay ban, a 1985 survey of 6,500 male soldiers found that 62% said that they would refuse to share showers, undress or sleep in the same room as a gay soldier. After the ban was lifted, follow-up studies found no increase in disciplinary, performance, recruitment, sexual misconduct, or resignation problems.


Good stuff here, too: Canada marks anniversary for gays in military
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BR_Parkway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Considering the amount of courage it takes to wear some of the outfits
I've seen at Pride parades, I'd think the military would be very well served by such brave men and women. (gay veteran here - much more able to speak about the military than the current crop of keyboard commandos and multiple deferments who've never served for certain)
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. It's STUPID. Big Dog thought it was just.too.stupid.
to be anything but easy. Neither he nor I expected the Sam/Colin steamroller coalition.

Rachel has featured Victor Ferenbach on her show. I would encourage everyone to make his acquaintance here in cyberspace. THIS MAN is unimpeachable in my eyes. He's someone to whom, were I involved or invested in the institution, I would offer PROTECTION with my fiercest growl lest anyone DARE try to touch a hair on his bald haid!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#35209750

Experienced Arabic translators DISCHARGED. Critical, highly-trained TEAM MEMBERS thrown to the wayside for WHAT? Are there rather lop-sided double standards running wild and loose in the ranks? Am I nuts to firmly believe that young Americans in today's military, excluding fundies, the insecure or unbalanced, couldn't give a flying rat's ass about such superficial doo-dah? Think this guy's team wants to lose him for some ignorant shit? Just wondering. :shrug:
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-04-10 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. One major difference...
the US is stuck in a religious time-warp from the time of the founding of the colonies. The other countries that accept gays in the military are far beyond us in tolerance.

More people in the US believe in god, attend church, deny science, and have rigid Old Testament beliefs.

Other countries have religions... the US has RELIGION.

Simply cannot bend at all when Zeus or whoever tells you something is bad.
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-05-10 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. /
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