I stand with PETA on this one:

[The Straight Story]

Canadian zoo sued over solitary elephant


EDMONTON, Alberta, Feb. 2 (UPI) -- A Canadian zoo in Edmonton, Alberta, is being sued by two animal rights groups over its treatment of an aging and ailing female elephant.

The suit was filed against the Valley Zoo by Zoocheck Canada and the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, alleging the 34-year-old elephant named Lucy isn't being cared for properly and should be moved, the Edmonton Journal reported Tuesday.

The suit is backed by an affidavit by retired San Diego Zoo veterinarian Dr. Philip Ensley who said the solitary Asian elephant should have company and claims the harsh winter conditions are contributing to a decline in her health.

"It is my opinion that the conditions and standard of care at the Valley Zoo are causing Lucy unnecessary distress and that these conditions are not in conformity with (zoo association) standards," Ensley's filing said.

He said his research suggests Lucy is overweight and has respiratory problems and arthritis, the report said.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/International/2010/02/02/Canadian-zoo-sued-over-solitary-elephant/UPI-42561265124224/

[Karmadillo]

1. Kick for Lucy.

nt

[T Wolf]

2. Just wait for the anti-animal/anti-PETA cretins to show up. Even on this site... Sad.

[Cid_B]

6. It's easier than you think...

to be pro-animal and anti-PETA.

[nyc 4 Biden]

14. FAIL.

[TransitJohn]

9. LOL

Nice false equation you got going on.

[dem629]

12. I've never heard of anyone being "anti-animal." LOL

Most people I know have pets, or like other people's pets, or eat meat.

I do all three.

[T Wolf]

16. Michael Vick "liked" animals too. It's what we do to them that matters, not the justification for

any behavior we engage in.

[johnaries]

17. If PETA did more actions like this I would support them more,

just like I support them in this action.

[seabeyond]

47. this thread might be a clue in. not anti animal. that is absurd. like pro abortion. wrong

duers call peta on the shit they do. regardless of their excuses.

just as repugs didnt call bush out cause he was fellow repug, and they blindly turned their heads away to all the wrong. supporters of peta ignore their sexism and racism and stupid for their cause

if that really makes you a better person go for it. i chose not to play that game

here you have a thread of people supporting what peta is doing. why? cause it truly fits what their supposed agenda should be.

[Lord Helmet]

3. k 'n r

[GoCubsGo]

4. I agree, too.

Herd animals shouldn't be solitary.

[flvegan]

5. Good for PETA.

Nice work!

[joeybee12]

7. Good for PETA...

...elephants are very intelligent animals and should be treated as such.

[Scout]

8. yup, i gotta agree with PETA this time....

elephants are very intelligent, and herd animals.

this is needlessly cruel.

[Cetacea]

10. Agreed. nt

[SPedigrees]

11. My contempt for PETA aside, an aging, arthritic animal who has lived alone

all its life could be seriously stressed and in danger of being injured by transport and introduction into living quarters with other elephants. As someone who has had horses all my life, and currently care for the last of our herd, an aging pony with Cushings disease and arthritis, I know the limitations of older herding animals much better than NYC PETA fanatics who don't know one end of an equine or pachyderm from the other.

[joeybee12]

13. And apparently you know more than the retired vet from the SD Zoo

who has worked with elephants, unlike you, who has worked with horses.

:eyes:

[nyc 4 Biden]

15. Damn those NYC liberals!

Oh wait this isn't free republic.

[QC]

39. Sometimes it's hard to remember that, isn't it? n/t

[Arkansas Granny]

30. I don't know anything about the sanctuary in California that PETA is recommending

but I've watched a couple of documentaries about one in Tennessee and the elephants that live there seem to be very happy with their new home.

http://www.elephants.com/

[LeftyMom]

42. PAWS does fantastic work.

I've toured their facility for other animals, which is near here. They only open it up once or twice a year for one day, in order to balance their need to raise funds for animal care with the need to minimize stress to the animals. It's a very clean, well-run facility from what I saw of it. The elephant facility is farther out in the boonies in order to give them room to roam, and they've put a lot of money into making sure that the elephants have a heated barn and health care facilities.

[4_TN_TITANS]

43. Bring her to Tennessee!

We have a four-star elephant sanctuary.

[arthritisR_US]

63. I respectfully must disagree. Elephants are not solitary animals. They have social units

as do we and suffer greatly without the comfort of other elephants. Edmonton has very long and bloody cold winters (-20 is par for the course) and its summers have been nothing to brag about as of late. Pachyderms habitat is warm dry Africa and given they don't have great temperature regulation internally this is truly disheartening.

[trotsky]

18. PETA doesn't want zoos period, does it?

Or service animals.

[superduperfarleft]

19. I'm not familiar with their position on service animals

but you are correct, at least in theory, they are opposed to zoos, as is anyone who understands and supports animal rights.

[trotsky]

22. "as is anyone who understands and supports animal rights"

And that's the kind of language that ultimately dooms PETA and their efforts.

[liberal_at_heart]

23. I agree. I am an avid animal rights advocate and hope to be a biologist

once I get out of school. I agree that zoos need oversight, but they provide a necessary service. First they preserve animals that are on the brink of extinction. Secondly, they educate the public on the plight of endagered animals. And the good ones provide a home for animals who have been injured or are diseased and would otherwise be put down. Of course wildlife reserves often offer better habitats for these animals but zoos do still provide a very necessary service.

[trotsky]

24. Well said, and I completely agree. n/t

[arthritisR_US]

64. I was thinking the same thing :-) n/t

[superduperfarleft]

26. You are not an animal rights advocate

if you believe that animals should be taken from their natural habitat and put on display in a zoo. As I said to the poster above, the actual understanding of animal rights is important before critically discussing PETA (which is something, IMO, PETA frequently is to blame for).

[liberal_at_heart]

31. I don't care what you consider me.

I am an animal rights advocate. Just because you think that anyone who believes in zoos is not an advocate does not make it so.

[superduperfarleft]

32. How do you reconcile granting a sentient creature "rights"

with doing things to them regardless of whether it's in their interest or not? I refer back to you saying that zoos help to educate the public. That would indicate that you support zoos because they serve a human need, and not the needs of the animal.

You may be an animal welfare advocate, but "rights" is a completely different concept altogether.

[liberal_at_heart]

34. You are obviously hostile towards people that are not as extreme as you are

Like I said you can call me whatever you like. I consider myself an animal rights advocate.

[superduperfarleft]

35. How am I being hostile? I just was trying to engage you in a discussion.

Geez...nevermind.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

50. There was nothing hostile about the posters points

They are true whether you like it or not.

[druidity33]

54. whether you like it or not

most animals that reside in zoos would have been poached or euthanized had they not been placed in a zoo. Sometimes zoo-kept animals are part of captive breeding programs so they can be re-introduced into the wild.

So, here's my question to you. Do you think it's better for the animal to be DEAD or alive in a zoo? (I'm not advocating substandard conditions or inhumane treatment) I'd say it's in the animals' interest to continue surviving.

I've been to bad zoos and good zoos. There is a place in this world for good zoos. This is coming from someone who has been a vegetarian for 20 years... so i honestly do tend to think about an animals welfare.

[SPedigrees]

59. If your interest lies in the welfare of animals, then you are for animal welfare.

Now if you were opposed to all symbiotic relationships between humans and the other animals, you would be an advocate of "animal rights." There is a vast difference and you are clearly on the sane side of that fence.

I too have seen good zoos and bad ones, as well as good animal shelters and not so good ones, and kindly responsible pet owners and neglectful uncommitted ones. You are very right that many species would soon become extinct without zoos.

If I were a wild animal today, would I prefer to live a long life in safety in a well managed zoo, with a nice habitat, good food, and full medical package... or would I prefer to fall victim to poachers or predators or die from infection or parasites at a young age in the wild? Seems like a no-brainer to this animal welfare advocate.

[arthritisR_US]

66. wow, great points. I've never seen the distinction between the two

explained and done so with such facility. The distinction is important and appreciated. Interesting and thanks, from an interested bystander :-)

[superduperfarleft]

25. Why, by being ethically consistent?

Note the part where I said "understands" animal rights. Animal rights is not treating food animals nicer, and it's not taking an animal from his or her natural habitat to put him or her on display for a bunch of people to gawk at.

If the basic theory which guides PETA and similar organizations makes you uncomfortable, fine, you're not an animal rights supporter. But to ask a group which claims to be pro-animal rights to water down their message in order to appeal to those who aren't supporters of animal rights is ridiculous.

[trotsky]

27. Thanks for being a perfect example of my statement. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

28. Please elaborate. n/t

[JoeyT]

44. No, by being sanctimonious.

According to you, anyone that doesn't agree with you isn't an animal rights advocate.

There's a heaping helping of that upthread, too.
Anyone that doesn't wholeheartedly support PETA is as bad as people that fight dogs sort of crap.

As far as I'm concerned PETA is like any other group. I'll support them when they're being rational and ignore them when they aren't.

[superduperfarleft]

46. I don't support PETA. What I'm quibbling over is terminology.

As I said, "rights" implies something much more radical than welfare. You can't respect the rights of a sentient creature by killing and eating it, whether it's an animal or a person, and you can't support the rights of a sentient creature by taking it out of its natural habitat to put on display for the benefit of another species.

In my opinion, the fact that animal rights has never been properly defined in the public sphere is exactly why it's next to impossible to have a critical discussion about it, and groups like PETA are probably the #1 culprit, since it's their responsibility to clearly communicate the theory they are supposed to be representing.

It's not being sanctimonious to know the definition and the implications of a "right."

edited to clarify: when I say "I don't support PETA," I mean that I strongly disagree with most of PETA's tactics and campaigns, and I find their inability to communicate the concept of animal rights, as well as their tendency to cuddle up with animal exploitation industries so as to claim victory and garner donations, incredibly harmful to the cause they claim they are attempting to promote.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

51. Great post

I will never understand anyone who self identifies themselves as an "animal rights advocate", who condone eating them and putting them in zoos.

Your posts were not confrontational, but maybe a harsh reality for people who don't truly advocate for animals.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

49. It seperates nothing

You either stand for animal rights or you don't.

[deaniac21]

20. or pets

[superduperfarleft]

21. Major oversimplification.

I'd be happy to explain it, but I doubt you're interested.

[deaniac21]

37. Your assumption is correct.

[Ignis]

38. That is not true. PETA does not oppose pet "ownership."

Explained in detail here, with links from PETA itself:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7407539&mesg_id=7407842

[Skip Intro]

62. bullshit

[LynneSin]

29. I am not a PETA fan but I can support this

I'm not the biggest fan of zoos, but nothing is sadder than a solitary animal with no companions. It just seems so lonely and I would suspect the animal would get depressed.

[Toasterlad]

33. How Can You Tell If An Elephant Is Overweight?

[onestepforward]

36. K&R for Lucy and PETA

Elephants are social and need to be around other elephants. I hope Lucy will get much better care and be placed with other elephants.

[Greyhound]

40. K&R

[Ignis]

41. K&R for the 'phants.

http://www.elephantart.com/

[JoeyT]

45. Good for PETA. n/t

[Raine]

48. Cheers to Peta

:thumbsup:

[Arctic Dave]

52. Anchorage had the same dilemma a few years ago with Maggie.

She was the elephant at the Alaska Zoo.

http://www.savewildelephants.com/maggie.asp

[northofdenali]

53. Good for them! (Wow, two "great news" posts in a row!)

Our Alaska Zoo older elephant, Maggie, is now basking in the warm sun in California. Our zoo officials "retired" her formally last year. These folks (PAWS) have some terrific vids of "freed" zoo and other critters, including Maggie the Elephant:

http://www.pawsweb.org/web_cams.html

[donheld]

55. Maybe it's the Republican

No really it's very sad.

[Lorien]

56. Is 34 old for an elephant? I thought they lived into their 50's

regardless, no elephant should spend it's life alone.

[xchrom]

57. Recommend -- I support PETA and zoos.

For myself there is no contradiction.

[lonestarnot]

58. Poor Lucy.

:cry:

[Hawkowl]

60. Retire Lucy!

Send her south to an old elephants home where she can enjoy the sun and play canasta! Seriously, she should not be alone in the frigid Canada winters.

[mochajava666]

61. Agree with Palin yesterday, agree with PETA today,

Maybe I need to change my meds...

[superconnected]

65. Peta - although stands for some good - needs to be disbanded now and a new organization

that we can look up to needs to be put in place. It can't be crazy, it can't have adopted stray dogs and put them down itself when it didn't find homes for them, etc. Peta is now a word that makes people want fight back and eat meat for the spite of it. As a vegetarian I am very saddened by what Peta has done and the response vegetarians and animal savers get because of Peta.

They not only failed their mission, they made people ANTI save the animals. Stars are wearing fur now and know better than standing up for Peta. They're embarrassed to be linked to Peta. You wouldn't think Peta could back fire, but they have enough extreme nuts that they have backfired - terribly.

Saving animals may become cool again - if we get rid of Peta.

End Peta. Start over.

[arthritisR_US]

67. boy do I agree with you! n/t