I just saw a damn ad for young women joining the military

[lunatica]

A young girl accuses her mother of not listening to her and the mother responds that she knows her daughter wants to join the military and the daughter says she wants to be part of something bigger than herself. Then she takes it back about her mother not listening to her and they sit down at the kitchen table to talk.

My head exploded because of the facts that have come out about so many women soldiers being raped in Iraq by fucking American soldiers and the military doing absolutely nothing about it! I wanted to scream at the obvious lying propaganda. No mother would sit at her kitchen table and let her daughter make up her own mind if she knew this. And I would hope that no young woman would know this and think it doesn't matter. The military aren't doing a fucking thing to help these women, but they run ads to get them to join!

I want to throw something that breaks into a million pieces!

[katandmoon]

1. Thank you. IMO any woman who joins the military is insane. It's a fucked institution.

[Captain Hilts]

3. A gross over- generalization. nt

[lunatica]

7. What's a gross generalization of an opinion?

The poster put IMO at the beginning of the sentence. It means 'in my opinion'.

[Political Heretic]

13. Umm... that doesn't matter.

Opinions can still be over-generalizations :shrug:

[lunatica]

39. Now that's a generalization

:hi:

[Political Heretic]

67. Uhh... no it isn't

"opinions can still be a generalization"

Doesn't say "all opinions are generalizations" or "most opinions are generalizations."

And its not an "opinion" anymore than 2+2=4 is an opinion. It's a fact of logic

[Captain Hilts]

22. Sorry, I didn't notice the acronym. nt

[Posteritatis]

84. So?

Prefacing something with the magic word "opinion" doesn't mean it's unassailable.

For example, if I say it's my opinion that all Americans are Republicans, that means my opinion is wrong, period.

[rhett o rick]

24. Right. Join the military and get raped. nt

[sarge43]

10. And you base this assumption on what evidence?

That is a bigoted statement. Hate the military and what it does? Fine, your choice, but at least have the decency and common sense not insult the many women veterans who DU members.

[katandmoon]

33. I stand by my opinion.

ETA: I think men who join are insane too, but the military is a male organization. It's a sick, ugly, fucked institution dedicated to killing and violence. And yet we are supposed to treat soldiers like heroes. Fuck that. IMO there is something wrong with anybody who voluntarily joins such a hideous enterprise.

[rd_kent]

147. Your "opinion", as unfactual and ignorant as it is, reminds me of lyrics from a Tool song...

"foot in mouth and head up ass, don't know what you're talking 'bout"

[PSzymeczek]

35. I was in the Army in the mid '70s.

One of my best friends in Germany was raped while we were on a field exercise, and not a damn thing was done about it. And that was over 30 years ago. I don't imagine anything has gotten better, although there has been some lip service paid.

[katandmoon]

36. A friend of mine was in the army in the 60s. She made it her mission after that to try to

Dissuade any woman she met who was planning to join, from joining.

[sarge43]

77. Of course there is sexual harassment and abuse in the military and it's too often ignored.

And that makes it different from any other institution in our society, just how? No civilian women have ever been raped, then ignored by civilian authorities? College date rape is merely a myth? Spousal abuse is someone's pipe dream?

As long as we are using personal experience, I spent 21 years in the service and you bet your behind it can and does treat women badly; I could write a book. On the other, it's still one of the few institutions that offers women real equal opportunity. Being 67 I've had plenty of time to observe civie world and it isn't exactly paradise for women out here either. On balance I have been treated no better as a civilian than I was as a servicewoman.

I'm still waiting for an explanation why joining the service make 3 million plus women insane. Again personal experience, having had the acquaintance of far more servicewomen than you no doubt have, I can say they were many things, but none of them were insane.

[Skittles]

40. I WILL KICK YOUR ASS

YES INDEED

[cherokeeprogressive]

46. In uniform, with a Mich and a smoke? Must have been lunchtime?

lol.

[Skittles]

72. naw, it was the seventies

:rofl:

[keroro gunsou]

55. SKITTLES is a lady

learn something new every day...

not trying to be snarky, but i was under the obviously mistaken impression that skittles was a guy.

that said, what did you do in the AF skittles? (provided it's not classified, area 51 stuff)

[Quantess]

62. Skittles has always been a female, AFAIK

It's not exactly a secret. :)

Edit to add: Last time there a poll was taken, just over 50% of DUers identified as female. FYI

[keroro gunsou]

68. ah...

well, 50/50 chance, i flipped that coin in my head and lost apparently. :D

[Skittles]

70. Consolidated Base Personnel Office

transfers, promotions, death notices - I was the Blonde in the CEEBO; yes INDEED

[sarge43]

90. Hey Skittles, knew there was something about you I liked.

Personnel puke myself, 73270 - APRs/OERS, Special Actions, Classification, Records (gag).

Let's mess up some asshole's reassignment.

[Skittles]

91. oh I had some fun with the the assholes

I loved assignments - guy was assigned to some remote island somewhere - I'd say, know where Hawaii is? YES he responded, lighting up.....Nowhere near it I'd say - :rofl:

Hey, the first OER I processed was signed by Alexander Haig - I kid you not :D

[sarge43]

94. Now that's nasty. I like it.

"Yes ma'am, I know where It Isn't The End of Earth, But You Can See It From The ATC Tower AFB is; God probably doesn't nor wants to."

When I ran Special Actions with the Unfavorable Info Files, I had fun telling the pilots no way in hell you'd get me on one of their zoomers. I knew who and what repaired them. You could hear them pucker. :evilgrin:

You sure Haig signed it? I wouldn't put it past that arrogant SOB to have some fluky do it for him. He had a bad case of MacArthuritis.

[Skittles]

71. my dad was military and I was the only girl of his six kids

it made me, er, tough :rofl:

[keroro gunsou]

82. that goes without saying

still, i survived this whole conversation without the usual threat of skittles kicking my ass... O8)

[Jamastiene]

75. You can kick my ass any time, any place, any where.

Yowza. Skittles rocks. :loveya:

[Smashcut]

93. LOVE IT!

[lazarus]

96. something we have in common

Air Force, beer, and cigs. I gave up all three. :hi:

[Skittles]

97. I have the occasional drink / cig on special occasions

but it's really not that often :D

[Zebedeo]

109. HOTT

Thank you for your service to our nation, Skittles. You look totally badass.

[PacerLJ35]

111. In today's military, that statement could potentially get you in trouble...

[TK421]

136. Skittles...would you kick my ass if I right-click, saved that pic?

hey gorgeous! :hi: :loveya:

[Tailormyst]

184. Whoa- totally smokin' hot

You can kick my ass anytime <eg>

[cherokeeprogressive]

45. You know... you're right.

It's a fucked up institution that just happens to have been the major player in aid and comfort to the victims of the tsunami in 2004. It's the fucked up institution that has been the major player in giving aid and comfort to the victims of the earthquake in Haiti. Over the years, the U.S. Military has provided aid and comfort to untold numbers of victims of natural disasters in other countries.

As a Navy Sailor, I painted helped do a large number of things that helped communities in need whenever my shop docked in foreign ports. I was not alone, by any stretch of the imagination.

Fucked indeed.

[lunatica]

47. If you helped and aided victims while in the military I'm sure you don't condone rape

But I hope you understand how what you do doesn't get much coverage and people don't know much about it. By the way, is it military policy to help the way you have or is that a personal thing you do? I'm sincerelyl curious.

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. I served onboard the USS America. Every time we

pulled into port in a foreign country, voluntary "working parties" were arranged to do something in the community, be it paint, clean up, build, or whatever. I'd venture a guess and say that my experience wasn't unique, rather policy driven.

There was never a shortage of personnel willing to volunteer for those working parties, and no bonus points resulted, no benefit was gained. Just the satisfaction of having done something good for someone who needed it.

[lunatica]

58. I'm grateful to hear your story

thanks for telling it. And thanks for doing the good works and helping our image. We hear too much about the bad stuff.

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. Yes we do.

I'd also add that while I served, charitable contributions to United Way and other charities were voluntary. Forget the fact that volunteering to give was mandatory. Twice a year.

[Obamanaut]

60. I also served aboard the USS America, in the Air Wing, as well as

the Eisenhower, Kennedy, Independence, and Midway - and it was the same on all these carriers in all the ports we visited. The other ships in the battle group had the same volunteerism.

[cherokeeprogressive]

61. Thanks Shipmate. I knew someone could back me up.

AMS1 when I was discharged in 1989.

You know they sunk the America, right?

[Obamanaut]

79. I read about the sinking. I went to basic in 1988 (AF), got out after 4,

went immediately into Navy, retired in 1988.

[cherokeeprogressive]

53. I don't condone rape. You can be sure of that, yes you can.

Oh I take a dim view of any man who would abuse a woman in any way. Yes I do.

[DutchLiberal]

115. How much aid and comfort where they giving to the people in Abu Graib?

How much aid and comfort have they given to the Iraqi people that got crushed under their tanks, because they are ordered not to stop driving? How many aid and comfort have they given to the people of Fallujah where they used the banned white phosphorus that burns away the skin to the bones? How much aid and comfort have they given the people of Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador and all the other Latin-American countries where they meddled into their affairs, inciting and infuriating civil wars, committing war crimes, overthrowing democracies, installing dictators?

[Lost-in-FL]

56. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them and most stink. nt

[Dappleganger]

64. Wow.

You could not be more WRONG.

[ShortnFiery]

103. This day and age, I would agree. Especially within the enlisted ranks where

you are over-run by machismo power.

No, although I treasure the time I served in the Army during the 1980s, I'd encourage any young woman today to NOT join the military.

Hell, I'd encourage NOBODY to sign up today - not with two occupations ongoing. That's insanity and/or a death wish.

[SKKY]

116. The military you served in during the 80's...

...bears no resemblance to the one I serve in today. It's like night and day.

[DutchLiberal]

112. Agreed 100%! They have no respect for women...

Not for the women of the countries they're occupying (like the 14 year old Iraqi girl they gang-raped and then murdered), but not even for their 'own' women. Just take the case of that young girl that was gang-raped by her male colleagues, and was then locked up and forced to shut up about it. What is her name again? She was on Maddow's show a few weeks ago.

[BlueCollar]

121. Respectfully I'd like to disagree

The military is a microcosm of society...

The trick is to know that going in.

Many of us who joined have benefited from military service.

I owe my entire success in life to two organizations...my family and the US Navy

[rd_kent]

146. Well, then you really are just showing your ignorance. You obviously have no idea what you are

talking about.

[Grand Taurean]

2. WOMEN SHOULD NOT JOIN THE MILITARY!

There are too many cases of sexual assault for the military to be safe for them.

[lunatica]

6. Women should be able to join if they want to but the military

Should have a policy of zero tolerance for violence against it's women soldiers by the men or the officers of the military.

[Grand Taurean]

8. I agree that women are free to join.

Most certainly they are.
If I were asked to advise, I WILL advise against joining due to the problem of sexual assault, until this problem is dealt with.

[havocmom]

15. Yep. Until the brass makes it clear that women in military are not 'comfort women'

I would advise any young woman to think about the realities v the image portrayed by recruiters very carefully

If/when the brass gets the attacks on females by fellow soldiers stopped, I would probably advise some young women to consider the military again.

But they should have the right to decide. And they damned well should have ALL the facts before they do.

[PacerLJ35]

105. The brass does NOT spread around the idea that females in the military are "comfort women"

http://www.sapr.mil/

The above program is DoD wide, and everybody in the military is required to get annual educational briefs about sexual assault, how to stop it, and what to do if someone you know is either trying to harass/assault you or if you see someone else do it. This is MANDATORY and those not attending are given administrative punishment. People who commit these crimes are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law...which is actually the problem because rape cases can be problematic to try.

[rhett o rick]

25. Well the military has a policy of woman are fair game for abuse. That's their policy. nt

[PacerLJ35]

102. Really? Please show me this "policy"...

I'm an officer in the military and that is certainly NOT the policy.

[noamnety]

128. We really haven't progressed that much since tailhook.

For those too young to remember tailhook, more than 100 aviators were accused of sexual assault at their convention at about the time of desert storm, not a single one was court martialed or served any time at all. One (Chief of Naval Operations) submitted his resignation to Clinton after it came out that he had lied to investigators - Clinton refused to accept his resignation. He retired with full pension, not even a loss of rank to reduce his pension as a full admiral. Given how that was handled, it's very hard to dispute that (at least under clinton) military policy was that it was fair game to assault women.

[PacerLJ35]

129. I beg to differ...things are very different from the Tailhook days

Everyone is required to receive an annual sexual harassment/assault class. There is a dedicated agency on every base to handle sex crimes, no matter if it's harassment or rape. Commanders are held personally accountable for ensuring their people get the training, victims get help, and for fostering a "zero tolerance" climate within the unit.

I've been in the military since 1992, and I'm currently a field grade officer. Many of the posts on this thread are simply misinformed or dead wrong. The military takes these issues very seriously.

[noamnety]

163. standpoint theory

perhaps as a male field grade officer, your perspective is different than that of an enlisted woman.

Standpoint theory touches on the notion that different people hold different realities, depending on their place in society. Those in the most privileged positions (white male christian - I'll add officer here) have the least incentive to have to see the world from other perspectives. In fact they have incentive specifically not to do that.

Those with the least privilege (impoverished women of color, glbt, etc) tend to be most objective because they simultaneously need to understand how the world works from their perspective, and from the perspective of those in power in order to survive.

So enlisted women who are raped simultaneously know what the situation really is for them, and how the upper crust expects them to react (suck it up, be one of "the guys," don't cause trouble, learn to take a joke, on and on). Those at the top don't need to understand what's really going on - they can be blind to it or not, without it actually affected their own lives. So they can point to the problem being solved, or under control, because they "held a class" or "posted a memo on a bulletin board." The problem's been addressed.

If you are a male and an officer, and you are refusing to acknowledge VA statistics that come directly from WOMEN who are ENLISTED, I can understand why from your perspective it's easy to believe these posts are misinformed, or dead wrong.

[PacerLJ35]

164. So you think being an officer means being one of the "upper crust"? Bullsh!t

I put myself through college. I had to work at a fast food restaurant so I could buy my own clothes, etc. My parents were divorced and my mom worked and went to school...we didn't have any money, except to live on. I got through college via the National Guard and working a part-time job. I enlisted in the Guard as an E-1, so while I'm not female I do know what it's like to be enlisted.

Please check your preconceived notions at the door. Future officers aren't just born to white, christian elitists.

I've had several good friends of mine get raped. They were all raped while in college. Go figure.

About your argument, it doesn't stand. It states that enlisted women shut up and go along with it, because the "upper crust" (I assume you mean officers too, because you specifically stated you included them in that group) expects them to "suck it up".

I'm here to tell you that the leadership of the military doesn't expect women to "suck it up". If they are assaulted, harassed or otherwise mistreated they have the option to either seek only treatment and counseling or to seek treatment/counseling and press charges. We (the leadership) pursue these charges seriously.

Tailhook happened many years ago. I can't even debrief a student after a flight over beer...that was what people who did my job did 20-30 years ago, but now it's forbidden. Things have changed quite a bit in the military. You're stuck many years in the past and refuse to acknowledge the military has done a lot to help women (and all victims of sex crimes, male or female).

[noamnety]

172. standpoint theory.

Is your perspective as a male in the military the only correct one on this issue?

Should perspectives from women be dismissed?

[PacerLJ35]

177. I didn't say that

I was responding to your allegation that male military officers represent the "upper crust". But certainly the viewpoint of someone who's served in the military for 18 years shouldn't be disregarded. I may not be female, but I work and know many females in the military. And being part of the "leadership" I deal quite a bit with the issues of sexual harassment and assault.

Your position that males in the military (officers, or "upper crust) simply shooing enlisted women away trying to report assault problems is a distortion. Perhaps that may happen in isolated incidents but I'd argue that it is not the norm.

[noamnety]

180. It's certainly what I've seen.

Including officers refusing to hire civilian women because they have a history of filing EEO complaints (meaning they filed one complaint, one time). Seen that first hand.

We learn quickly that we get pegged as trouble makers if we report, therefore if we value our careers, we learn to suck it up and not report. That part of the system happens in a way that is invisible to many male officers.

[noamnety]

181. too late to edit my post

but I wanted to add an explanation about my use of upper crust as including officers.

In standpoint theory there are people who are at the top, and people at the bottom. If we are talking about oppression of women, the women have the most objective viewpoint, because they - by necessity - have to understand their own view and the view of the people who hold power (the men in this example).

If we were talking about race, a black man would be more likely have a more objective understanding of racial issues than a white woman because he understands how oppression affects him in ways that are invisible to a white woman - and he has to have an understanding of how white people perceive race.

So you can see that the upper crust here changes, depending on the issues being addressed. You can be the dominant group on one issue (women's rights), and simultaneously the oppressed group regarding another issue (race).

Regarding the military structure and how policies are enforced, those at the top are at the top - REGARDLESS of class issues, whether you grew up poor. Growing up the son of a migrant worker does not mean that as an officer you need to understand how and why women report - or don't report rapes. Being a woman in the military means you DO have to have an understanding of how others will perceive you differently if you report a rape.

So we get posts from men saying someone probably wasn't raped because look, she didn't even report it for a month. Those men do not have any understanding of the dynamics of why a woman would try to avoid reporting a rape entirely or why she would ultimately change her mind - and they don't have a need to understand that. In fact, it's to their advantage as a group (in terms of reinforcing power) to NOT have an understanding of that dynamic. It reinforces male power structures to assert - and believe - that if a woman didn't report a rape immediately, she wasn't raped.

Likewise, it is to an officer's advantage to believe that there are no rapes, there is no harassment, occurring in his unit. It reinforces his own perceptions that he is using power correctly to believe that a class or a memo or a written policy has effectively resolved a problem, and that a lack of reporting = a lack of harassment. It takes stepping out of one's own shoes to be able to see the other standpoint.

Going back to race as an example, as a generalization white people don't want to work with a black person who is forever pointing out small (or large) examples of racism going on. The black person quickly learns to put up with a fair amount of dumbassedry with a smile in order to be accepted. We get Obama being very gracious about some decidedly stupid comments from republicans, and even from people in his own party (Reid, Biden). If he didn't accept it graciously, if he made a big deal out of it, he'd get labeled differently, no? He'd be perceived as an Angry Black Man if he firmly said NO, that is NOT acceptable. If he had made a big deal out of it, he likely wouldn't have been elected. The general public, certainly the democrats, admire that he sucks it up and doesn't "make a big deal about it." What I am saying is that this is the same lesson women in the military learn, that we are more successful in our own careers if we are complicit in minimizing or covering up harassment or assaults that we personally experience.

[PacerLJ35]

182. I have to ask...how long ago were you in the military?

The vast majority of the civilians I've worked with are female. I have no idea why, really, but they are. So your position that women are commonly past up for hire might have applied in that one or two instances that YOU saw, but it's NOT the norm.

Ditto with everything else I've seen. You feel that because of your experiences (which I would like to find out how long ago you served, that could place it in better context) must therefore be the experiences of every woman in the service. I only use my experience as an officer because I have been briefed and discussed MANY of these cases, versus the few in your personal experience. Perhaps you had a very poor command climate. Perhaps you were in the military 20 years ago and thus you don't realize how much things have changed...I don't know.

What I do know are these blanket statements that the military doesn't care if a woman gets assaulted, that they look upon female servicewomen as "comfort girls" (as one poster said), and that the military doesn't have a real policy and programs regarding this issue is patently false.

You discuss how and why women will or won't report assaults/rapes, which is exactly why a few years ago the military went to a two-tiered reporting system...either restricted reporting (no one but your medical providers/counseling services know) or open reporting, where it goes to law enforcement for action. You're right, I don't know what it's like to be a woman 100%, but that's like stating you can't possibly know the pressures of being a white male military officer because you aren't one...you'd dismiss that pretty quick because YOU have the power of observation, much like I do. No, I can't get into someone's head and know EXACTLY what they are feeling, but I can certainly try, and so can the others that have built the current DoD-wide sexual assault/rape prevention and victim advocacy program.

Finally...where did I ever try and deny that women wouldn't get raped for lack of reporting? I've told you repeatedly that if one of my enlisted women came to me to report a rape, it WOULD be taken very seriously. Every other officer who I know would do the same. Everyone knows that NOT taking it seriously is first and foremost a detriment to taking care of your people, and secondly assuming someone doesn't even have the decency to want to help someone in that situation, they understand not taking it seriously will most definitely get them fired from their job, and perhaps even charged for violating very specific policy.

Your theory is also a little lacking. You throw around terms like "white" and "black" and "woman" as though only certain molds and stereotypes are adequate to fill those roles. Being in college as a young 19 year old, I needed money so I worked at a store for a year in a black neighborhood. I was the sole white kid. Most people treated me fine, but I did get to experience the treatment that african-americans get treated in a reversed situation (ie, the one you cited, where a black man is working in a white workplace). So please don't assume that I've never had to be in that position. There were a number of customers who verbally announced their displeasure of my presence simply because I was white, and a few others who went beyond that.

I'd say your theory would be better if you simply stated that people who aren't in the majority grouping of their peers can often face considerable pressure and non-acceptance. Been there, done that...I get tired of the assumption that all white men who work in positions of "power" (ie, an officer) have only known the feeling of being some kind of alpha male in society. That's not true in many cases. You honestly don't know any of my life experiences and to attempt to peg me in some box is purely assuming you know anything about me at all, aside from the fact that I'm an officer. You even assumed I was white (correctly, but you could have been wrong).

Question: How would you have responded if I was a black military officer? Or a female military officer?

[noamnety]

186. responses

I served in the military from 84-92 and as a civilian on an army post from then to 2002. My partner still works full time on an army post - it's not like I've been isolated from the culture/army life since then.

Correction: I did not say "women are commonly past up for hire ..." I stated that women who have filed an EEO complaint or filed charges for assault or rape are passed over for hire (or promotions) because they are seen as "trouble makers." (Although I will say I personally was excluded from some opportunities that my LTC admitted I was most qualified for, because as he bluntly put it, I would be working with special forces and they would not accept me because of my gender - he had to send a guy to work with them, even though the duties themselves were entirely noncombat, stateside. Gender didn't affect my ability to do that job, it affected their willingness to let me do that job. Openly admitted, and probably true, at that. Some things are boys club only.

As for how wide spread the nonsupport for women runs, I'll just ask you this. Elsewhere in this thread, someone asserted the marine who was murdered, burned and buried by the man she said raped her, was portrayed as having lied about the rape because she didn't report it immediately. Here you are, claiming that the military culture is to take these claims seriously nowadays. Why did you let that person's comment stand unchallenged? You are an officer who believes rape claims should be taken seriously - why aren't you stepping in to put that person in their place?

Do you think your silence on that communicates anything?

[PacerLJ35]

188. Response to your question

You asked me about my opinion regarding the Marine who was murdered. I've stated in other places that her example was a failure of her leadership...not just her supervisors but her commander as well, and it's quite likely they were fired or disciplined (although I can't find any information stating what happened to them). Your response to that was "they were probably promoted", yet you provided zero evidence to support that assertion. If they were promoted, that would have been a grave error on behalf of senior leaders. Regardless, what happened with that Marine and her leadership is not the norm. On this base alone we handle lots of cases...some serious, some not so serious, but all result in some kind of discipline or at least moving the victim somewhere else if there's no real evidence to support any disciplinary action. What happens here is pretty much the same way it's done at every other base I've been at. I've been told point blank to my face by a senior officer that I (and the other officers) are accountable.

As for the post you asked me about, I haven't read that post...I don't read ALL posts, and in fact I've probably only read about half the posts in this thread. I would most certainly challenge that individual's position, because most women don't report their assaults. That's why in the military we have what's now called "restricted reporting", where the woman can proceed direct to the SAPRO office, bypass leadership and the SP/MPs and OSI, and simply receive medical care and counseling. If they wish to press charges, they can proceed with that, where it then becomes an "unrestricted" report, because it then becomes a matter of public record (ie, entering the court system).

You mention you were in the military from the mid-1980s until the early 1990s. I joined the military in 1992 as an E-1, and having come from that background to today, I know very well that the military has vastly improved its sexual assault response. There was no SAPRO office, and the only way a woman could have any justice or receive any help was to make her case known to everyone by pressing charges...and since rape is very hard to prove in court, the victim was often left out in the cold. It's not like that anymore.

FWIW, one of my very best friends, who's like a sister to me, was raped in college. She was brave enough to go public and press charges. But the kid was the son of a connected local businessman, and the prosecutor didn't even accept the case. No one, not even the college, did anything for her. She became very involved in college sexual assault/rape awareness campaigns, and admitted that most colleges have next to nothing to help female students. I find it really ironic that so many people are saying "stay away from the military, they'll rape you and laugh at you...but you should go to college instead"....when it's actually the reverse.

[noamnety]

189. The women I know from the IVAW

tell stories that are as bad as when I was in, and their service is pretty current.

I know that when I was at Ft McCoy briefly in the 90s I was warned just not to even go to the NCO club, that it wasn't possible to walk across the club to use the restroom without getting groped. No problem, I stayed away. But the culture, and that wasn't so long ago, was that the command looked the other way. Boys will be boys. (Soldiers will assault women, in other words, it was just understood.)

As a civilian at a test range (more recent than my time in uniform), I was assigned a target number - as were the other women. The way that was dealt with - I was quietly warned by someone to walk behind, not in front of the sensors. (Think airport body scans).

I won't dispute your college statistics, that's an atmosphere that's equally dangerous for women. There is a key distinction though. A college student is free to just leave at any point - even if she just feels unsafe but nothing has happened yet. She can just move away, transfer to another school, drop out, get a job - she can decide at any point before or after an incident that she doesn't want to deal with reporting it, but she can just walk. You can't do that in the military, you are captive. You are at the mercy of your commander, you have to report it to even be considered for reassignment, you have to give a reason, reporting it puts you in greater danger of retaliation by someone who knows where you live. And even then, despite what you believe happens in your unit or throughout the military, you still don't know if you are going to be in the position of Suzanne Swift.

"On December 14 Swift was convicted by a summary court martial for missing movement and being AWOL. She was sentenced to spend 30 days in confinement and must stay in the military until 2009. She was released this morning with time off for good behavior. “Suzanne faced her court martial with strength and respect. I was more than proud of her," said Sara Rich, Suzanne's mom, following her court martial last month.

Swift's case had garnered national attention since she was arrested at her mother's home in June 2006. Swift had gone AWOL just before her military police unit was to redeploy to Iraq in January 2006. During her previous tour of duty in Iraq in 2004 and 2005, Swift was sexually harassed and assaulted by superiors. "

That doesn't happen at a college. You aren't courtmartialed or imprisoned for refusing to go to class with your rapists. You aren't sentenced to having to stay at that college for 2 more years as punishment for not going to class with your rapist.

BTW, I didn't post followups on the superiors in the Lauterbach case because I couldn't even find their names in the press reports. They weren't even held accountable in that way from what I saw. I based my assumptions on the current careers of people involved in scandals, like the commander of abu ghraib getting promoted in 2004 (pretty hard to dispute he was overseeing a site where sexual abuse was rampant and part of the accepted culture). He was awarded the distinguished service medal when he retired in 06.

[PacerLJ35]

193. You've cited three examples

I know of dozens that went the other way (handled correctly) at this base alone. The culture in the military has taken a drastic change even from when you last worked as a civilian in 2002. Back then I was a LT, and there wasn't hardly a mention of sexual assault/rape, other than the obligatory policy letter from each commander. Today, nearly a decade later, it's much different, partly in response to what happened during the deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan.

I won't deny that the military used to have a culture of "looking the other way". But these days, saying even something like the posters on here have said (in response to the photo posted on this topic, a few men have said things like "wow that's hot", etc)...that could get you in trouble really quickly.

Again, you have cited three cases where leadership either failed or they were negligent altogether, yet I see and hear about cases at this base alone that are taken care of correctly. I wish the system was 100% effective and foolproof, but it isn't...and given human failures I doubt any system ever could be. But from what I've seen and the differences in culture from 1992 until the present day, the military is moving in the right direction, and in a hurry.

Also, there's really no such thing as an NCO club anymore, at least not in the way you probably remember it. Alcohol and assault/harassment rules have pretty much gutted those types of clubs. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but old timers tell me of the days when strippers were brought to the base officer's club on a regular basis, and women from town were bussed in. Now, the club is an "all ranks club", and no one really goes there except to eat lunch. It's rarely open at night, except to host official functions. Such is the difference in culture from your military days to mine.

I will also state that you need to refrain from painting with a broad brush. I was an E-1 in 1992, the same time frame you stated that men were groping women openly and sexual assault and rape were regular events. The group of kids I knew and worked with were as about as rowdy as college kids...hell, kids are kids. In any group of 18-24 year olds, you're going to have a number of type-As that think the world revolves around them. The military doesn't know ahead of time if they are getting a normal kid with a good head on his shoulders, or if they are getting an egotistical narcissist who could prey on women. So the best thing they can do is educate the people and prosecute those who don't abide by the rules. The military has obviously famously dropped the ball in a few cases, but what you don't hear about are the cases that are handled correctly...and lately, they have been educated people to avoid being enablers...ie, sitting there listening to someone say he's going to do this or that to a woman but do nothing.

You're right, there is a difference between college and the military, that the woman can leave....but I'd argue that it's equalized by the fact that simply saying a woman can avoid college to avoid getting raped isn't a very good excuse to "look the other way". The basic fact is the military over the past several years has tried very hard to get a handle on the problem, while many other institutions (colleges included) have largely ignored the problem. Several high-profile cases where things weren't handled like they should have been have focused attention on the military, while women are raped and assaulted regularly at our colleges and schools and no one really thinks twice about it. At least the military is doing something about it.

[DutchLiberal]

200. THANK YOU! That's the point I've been trying to make.

But you said it so much better. "Oh no, we act against rape. We have it written down in black and white." Yeah sure, and you don't tirture either, eh?

[PacerLJ35]

101. The military does have a zero tolerance policy against sex crimes

I'm an officer in the military and we will throw the book at someone if they are found guilty of such crimes. The problem is, some of those crimes are not easily prosecuted in court, much like in the civilian world.

The military actually has a better system than you'd think, because a woman can seek counseling, medical care and a host of other services whether she chooses to press charges or not. The military also has done extensive education on what constitutes sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape so there's absolutely no room to claim that "I didn't know slapping her on the ass was wrong". The idea that the military simply allows assaults and rape to happen and does nothing about it is a fallacy propagated by those who don't really like the military to begin with.

[noamnety]

190. Sexual assaults are up, prosecutions are down. Less than 10 percent even make it to trial.

"One in three female soldiers will experience sexual assault while serving in the military, compared to one in six women in the civilian world. The Pentagon released a disturbing report Tuesday on sexual abuse in the military, saying that more than 2,900 sexual assaults were reported last year, up nearly 9 percent from the year before. Nearly two-thirds of the cases involved rape or aggravated assault.

(snip)
The Pentagon only started a comprehensive program to track incidents in 2006, and only after Congress mandated it do so.

That year there were 2,974 cases of rape and sexual assault across the services. And of those, only 292 cases resulted in a military trial.

And in 2007 there were even fewer prosecutions. “Of more than 2,200 servicemen investigated for sexual assault, only 181 were prosecuted?” Couric asked Dominguez."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/17/eveningnews/main4872713.shtml

[pecwae]

74. THEY SHOULD STAY OU T OF

bars and clubs too since they cause others to lose control in those places and a sexual assault might ensue. They should also stop driving and walking around. Shit, just make them all stay home, you know, just to keep them safe.

[treestar]

81. That's letting them win

they can say, "see? We told you women are too delicate for the military."

[hack89]

86. WOMEN SHOULD NOT GO TO COLLEGE

There are too many cases of sexual assault for college to be safe for them.

Statistics on College Rape

* One out of four women will be sexually assaulted on a college campus. 1

* One out of eight women will be raped while in college. 2

* 84% of women who were raped knew their assailant. 3

* 57% of rapes occur on a date. 4

* 75% of male students and 55% of female students involved in date rape had been drinking or using drugs. 5

http://abacus.bates.edu/admin/offices/scs/salt7.html

[PacerLJ35]

104. Of my female friends that have been raped, they were all assaulted while in college...

And the authorities either did nothing to charge the assailants, or the charges were dropped due to lack of evidence.

Of the rape/assault cases I've known about in the military, most are charged, tried and convicted. If they can't get a conviction due to the actual charge, they can be tried for other charges that the US civil code doesn't have, like conduct unbecoming, etc.

[Skittles]

95. hey Grand

when I was an airman, a sergeant tried to paw me - I broke his nose and teeth with a big-ass stapler - guess what - turns out he never tried anything with me again

[lukasahero]

140. SOLDIERS SHOULD NOT RAPE WOMEN!

Wouldn't that really be the right answer?

[Freddie Stubbs]

167. You could say the same thing about college

[timeforpeace]

4. Better than old women joining the military.

[patrice]

5. Not to mention the implication that belonging "to something bigger" is achieved only by GROUP member

ship, or that simply by joining a group one becomes part of something "bigger".

Not that communitarianism is always bad, but just that loss of strong autonymy can result in things such as groupthink and the Third Reich.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

12. I have known women in the past who joined the military and had

good outcomes, like learning some good job skills and even meeting the fellow they would marry in the future, so it can't be all bad. But considering the toxic elements introduced into the military during the Bush years, I think I'm with you. If I had a daughter who wanted to join I would definitely try to talk her out of it.

[lunatica]

21. My outrage is about the military doing this ad recruitment style

while they know full well how many women are victimized violently in their ranks. Don't target women if you're going to ignore them when they get raped and beaten by your male soldiers!

[Cleita]

29. I have to agree. It is outrageous and very calloused of them.

However, it seems to be part of our commercialization and conditioning. The experts who make the commercials also do so for many products that they probably personally don't like. This is another product. I find that these ads for both the boys and girls glamorize the military life and appeal to the idealism of young people. Maybe one of these days the producers of these commercials will see their daughters and sons join up because of them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. There used to be one aimed at young men that made army life look like Boy Scout camp for big kids

I really wish I had the multimedia skills to capture the soundtrack and put it behind images from the Iraq and Afghanistan fronts.

[PacerLJ35]

106. Rape/assault is not ignored in the military

It is taken very seriously. Any commander who fails to do so can (and has been) fired on the spot, and even found to be criminally negligent. Military officers are not a bunch of women-chasing Rambos that don't give to farts about civility...quite the opposite. Most are very responsible, intelligent people.

[DutchLiberal]

122. Yes, it is. It's sweeped under the rug.

[PacerLJ35]

130. And were do you base this fact? I've been in the military for 18 years, it's not "swept" away

There are annual training classes about sexual harassment/assault. Special offices dedicated to sexual assault crimes. Hotlines for victims to call advocacy groups. Every unit I've ever been in had it in black and white...sex crimes have a zero tolerance policy...that goes from simple harassment (ie, hitting on a woman when it's not welcome) to rape.

[DutchLiberal]

152. I base it on the fact that the military tries to keep each case silent...

Yes, DUH, of course they have something written "in black and white"... Great way to hide behind! "See, we're doing something about it! We wrote it down!" But when something actually happens, they do nothing about it.

[PacerLJ35]

165. Cases are part of the public record. In many situations the specifics of the case aren't divulged

to protect the victim's privacy. There's no attempt at "secrecy"...if a soldier, sailor or airman is brought up on charges, they are tried in the same manner any other person who is accused of a crime is tried.

[DutchLiberal]

199. Suuuuuuure...

And don't count how many women are being pressured and threatened not to bring charges. And how many Iraqi and Afghan women have been raped who wil never see justice because it's all neatly covered up.

[BrotherLove]

14. With the recent USSC decision why would anyone join....you're no longer fighting for freedom but ...

... some corporate asshole. Let them go fight their own wars.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Political Heretic]

16. Dang, this thread is full of flamebait.

I think I'm just gonna pass.

[Texasgal]

19. geez...no shit

what a weird thread!!

[Captain Hilts]

23. Me too. nt

[rhett o rick]

26. Too late. You just kicked the thread. nt

[rd_kent]

149. And ignorance, both willful and negligent.

[pitohui]

17. nothing ever changes if women just let themselves be run over by a bulldozer

look, the military is a legitimate choice for people who don't have the class background to take on half a million dollars worth of college debt to educate themselves

women should have that choice

you think being a fucking cocktail waitress your whole life is a better option than going for the military? well, guess what, it isn't, waitresses get raped too and nobody is fucking helping them either

the fuckwit rapists shouldn't be allowed to take away a damned good opportunity, instead, women should flood the fucking military, get control of it, and send the fucking rapists to federal prison somewhere

when you say "women shouldn't do that because they might get raped," c'mon, that is so not looking at real life and the big picture

anything you do, you might get raped, unfortunately, that's our society, you can't let that shit hold you back

something bad happened to me (which i won't discuss) it didn't happen in the army, it happened in academia, maybe it's wrong to have ads encouraging young women to go to college???? rape is scared chickenshit males exercising power and it could happen ANYWHERE a woman takes a job that a man thinks should be rightfully his

so stay at home in your basement and never be seen by a jealous/mentally ill/psycho man and maybe you'll never be raped, but maybe you'll never have a life either...

don't let the threat of rape steal your life

[lunatica]

27. Oh Please!

For your information, the university I work in has a zero tolerance policy for rape. It's the University of California.

Your over exaggeration of what I said is very poor. I've had experiences too. read the whole thread before you decide what I think. I think women have the right to make their choices. My objection is to the military putting out ads to recruit women while doing nothing to protect them.

[wolfgangmo]

110. Best advice yet...

Flood the military with women and take the damn thing over.

Now if we could only get women voting in a block then things would get better. (non sarcastic comment - I really think women could not do worse than men have for centuries)

[timeforpeace]

18. So nice to see that there IS a place for misogyny in political discourse.

[lunatica]

30. ?

[noamnety]

142. I didn't see the OP as misogyny - and I'm a woman, and former SGT.

It was a criticism of a highly misogynistic organization specifically recruiting women in a way that completely disappears the unique risks that women take by enlisting. It's the moral equivalent of producing cigarette ads claiming cigarettes are good for you, without even the fine print disclaimer that they cause cancer and heart disease.

[Rebubula]

143. Considering some of your other posts...

...I am starting to think that you are rather ignorant.

Or just very young....

[inna]

20. You think these ads are bad now. Wait about a year, and tell me what you think then, considering

the infamous SCOTUS ruling from a couple of days ago. x(

[lunatica]

34. You think it's going to get worse?

I'm interested in what your thoughts are.

[woo me with science]

28. Oh for pete's sake. nt

[lunatica]

31. Who's pete?

And why should I care

[woo me with science]

38. Apparently you do. :)

:hi: hi back from pete.

[lunatica]

41. Hi Pete!

I've been hearing about you all my life!

[woo me with science]

43. Marvelous smilie!

Have a beer. :toast:

[Odin2005]

32. Any woman joining is nuts. a third or millitary women are raped and nearly all are sexually harassed

[cherokeeprogressive]

42. Cite? I'd appreciate it, and I think some others reading this thread would as well.

You make an outlandish claim like that, it's only fair that you back it up with cold hard facts.

[lunatica]

44. Here's some information (4 out of 10 are raped)

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/31/military.sexabuse/index.html

Sexual assault in military 'jaw-dropping,' lawmaker says

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A congresswoman said Thursday that her "jaw dropped" when military doctors told her that four in 10 women at a veterans hospital reported being sexually assaulted while in the military.
Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach said she was raped by a fellow Marine. A Marine has been charged in her death.

A government report indicates that the numbers could be even higher.

Rep. Jane Harman, D-California, spoke before a House panel investigating the way the military handles reports of sexual assault.

She said she recently visited a Veterans Affairs hospital in the Los Angeles area, where women told her horror stories of being raped in the military.

"My jaw dropped when the doctors told me that 41 percent of the female veterans seen there say they were victims of sexual assault while serving in the military," said Harman, who has long sought better protection of women in the military.

more..

[leftstreet]

49. Someone needs to issue these ladies guns

oh, wait...

[lunatica]

57. Sorry. I don't get the joke

These women are very young and just as impressionable as the young men who the military recruit and target. The military ads are all based on kids asking their parents for permission to join the military. They all have to sit down at the kitchen table and talk. The ads are also aimed at the parents telling them they need to let got of their kiddies.

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. With all due respect, I don't think that anecdotal evidence qualifies as a "cite".

When and where did "military doctors" tell Jane Harman that?

This Veteran who worked side by side with women for almost five years sees it differently. I was asssigned to VA-128 at NAS Whidbey Island in the late 80's, and saw nothing of the sort.

I'd like to ask, since when did 4 in 10 equal 41%?

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. Don't get that wrong. I'm just saying that a Congresscritter's quote doesn't add up to empirical evidence on my end.

[lunatica]

54. I don't have the advantage of your experience so I get my stats where I can

But I do know that most men aren't rapists. As far as I know I don't know any personally. As far as I know.

[rd_kent]

154. So, you admit that your "stats" are just anecdotal, and in now way represent true numbers?

[gmoney]

100. that's 4 in 10 women IN MILITARY HOSPITALS, not all women in military.

I'm not saying it's acceptable at all, but it's not 4 in 10 of ALL women in military

There's a radio ad for a quit-smoking gimmick that says something like "every year 10% of the word's population dies from smoking" -- I believe they mean to say that 10% of deaths in the world are attributable to smoking.

[rd_kent]

153. of women in THAT military hospital........

And hardly accurate, since no supporting data, other than "doctors told me".......


I am not saying that THOSE women in THAT hospital did not go through what they said they did, but 41%, as in 41% of ALL women in the military? Not a chance....

[rd_kent]

151. Not to diminish what THOSE women in the article went through..

But that hardly qualifies as hard data. 41% of how many? 8? 4? 10? 100?

[rd_kent]

150. Did you just pull that shit DIRECTLY from your ass?

[blues90]

48. Well there is the CORPORATE media at work

Who else would show and try to sell an idea that anyone should join the military especially in a time once again of other illegal wars?

I see ad's all the time , what they don't show and should is the blown up body in a body bag ,at least to be honest , honest. I forget that went down the rabbit hole.

[lunatica]

52. The issue of them needing more able bodies to fight their illegal wars

is another issue to be discussed openly. I was reacting to an ad I saw moments before I posted. I've many times reacted viscerally to ads by the military during this decade. I am pro peace and against war, though I'm not against those who join the military. It's a very complex issue for me because I don't hate the military. I even find things I admire about their organizational skills. I just think war is waged by people who don't fight it. Without them we would have remarkably reduced warfare in human history.

[557188]

63. Anyone woman who goes to a frat party is insane

And so on...

I dislike how focused on sex this thread is. Women, if they want to be equal, have to play equal roles in society. The same goes for men. Don't be a victim, don't be afraid and stand up for yourself.

Not that I think anyone should join the military but this thread is just playing into a culture of fear and restricting women. More women in the military, with larger more equal roles, is the answer to fighting the military culture of misogyny.

[lunatica]

65. So you think the military itself don't need to do anything

And that women should just man up? And obviously you think false advertising for the purpose of sending people to war is OK. I couldn't disagree more with such an obtuse and simplistic opinion. It's shallow and uninformed.

[PacerLJ35]

107. The military IS doing something...you appear to not be aware of this fact.

[Number23]

66. Scores of women in the military have not been raped. What a weird post

I have tons of female friends that have been in the military, including a cousin who attended West Point and is a big time officer. Some of them loved it, some of them hated it.

The idea that women should not join a military they busted their ass to join because there have been incidences of sexual assault is ridiculous. Alot of women are assaulted on college campuses too. Should women not seek higher education?? Or drive their cars at night??

[lunatica]

69. Read the rest of the thread for your answer

I'm reacting to the military putting that ad on when they do nothing to help the women who are in the military. The fact you know a few who weren't raped is very nice and all, but it doesn't make the rapes that do happen meaningless.

Kneejerk post that shows you didn't bother to read the OP through.

[Number23]

85. No one said one damn word about military rapes being "meaningless"

And you really think that the military "does nothing" about rapes within its ranks?? Damn. They probably don't do nearly enough but if they "did nothing" I'm sure that the legions of smart, tough women who serve in the military would be raising all types of hell and many are.

I can understand why you're so touchy though after having had half of DU do a :wtf: at this ridiculous OP but try not to take it out on me.

[lunatica]

87. I rest my case

Still haven't read anything have you?

[Number23]

88. Why do you accuse every person in this thread who thinks that this OP is stupid of

"not having read it?" You did that about 50 times! Does it not occur to you that it was read and people just thought it was dumb??

Your OP is not that deep, girl! It's really very simple and really very weird, which about 10 people have already said. Deal with it and stop being so damn defensive!

[rd_kent]

156. ANd neither have you, or you would'nt pull unfounded shit out of your ass.

You have NO idea what you are talking about. None. Zip. Nada.

[rd_kent]

155. Again, you pull unfounded accusations right from your ass....

when they do nothing to help the women who are in the military


Really? Nothing? You sure about that?





Ignorance, it's whats for dinner.

[jotsy]

73. They came after my high school senior in 2008.

The first time something came to the house in the mail, I called them and told them to remove her name from their mailing list, as she was a minor, I felt it my right. Not a week after her 18th birthday did we receive another one of their glossy little booklets offering glam and glory. When I called them again, they said after her birthday, she was an adult, and would have to personally request mailings to stop.

These wars are shams and must be stopped before the world starts treating us like the bullies we seem to be.

[Jamastiene]

76. The U.S. military is just like any other segment of the population in one way.

You got the good and the bad.

The good, I commend and thank wholeheartedly. Without their sacrifice, I could lose what little freedom my government hasn't already taken away.

The bad need their asses kicked.

I think the point of your OP was that the rapists should be punished, right?

I wouldn't bash all of the military for what the bad do. The rest, the ones who are against rape and sexism and homophobic, really are the good ones and they are serving because they believe in protecting America. It's not their fault when the leaders do a lousy job. Yes, the rapists should be punished, given dishonorable discharges and prison time for their crimes.

[lunatica]

80. My point is that the military needs to have a zero tolerance policy

against rape or sexual assault or intimidation of it's soldiers and that the perpetrators will be punished. Nowhere in this thread did I bash the military in any other way. Read it.

[PacerLJ35]

108. They do have a zero tolerance policy...

Every squadron I've ever been assigned to, first words out of the commander's mouth is usually "zero tolerance for violence, sex crimes and drug/alcohol incidents". Committing any of those crimes is usually the fast-track to jail, or at least out of the military.

[rd_kent]

157. Again, your ignorance is stupefying. They DO have a zero tolerance policy.

[igfoth]

78. Being a Vet

The first question I ask a kid when they ask me about the military is "are you willing to die for this country" if they cannot deal with that very simple question then they have no business joining up.

I also tell them your worth to the Military is directly proportional to the amount of money the military spends training you.

The vast majority of people being killed and wounded today are cheap and easy to train, cannon fodder, that no one in DC really gives a crap about. Get killed and they can be easily replaced in less then 6 months.

[amborin]

83. K&R but same applies to young men: cannon fodder for an insane escalation n/t

[winyanstaz]

89. Women need to boycott the military....

They are only letting the men rape and abuse them. Even kill them in some cases.
What parent would willingly let their kids join todays military anyways?

[SKKY]

114. Right. The military lets men rape and abuse women.

Because it's the cool thing to do. Sure. Get a clue.

[KonaKane]

92. Oh noes! The military LIED??

Wow, halt the presses. They lie about everything, my friend. Woman or man, they are happy to have aboard as fodder for the next corporatist war. They will say anything, promise anything, do anything, to finagle that signature out of you.

The state I moved from was in the throes of court battles over the military's near carte blanche in propagandizing teens in the public schools, while anti-military groups are prohibited from the same access to students. How can that be?

[umyeah]

98. How about your head?

[SKKY]

113. Um, as someone who has been in the military for the past 17+ years...

...I can safely say that you know not of what you speak. Rape happens just as much in the private sector as it does in the military. But, I would like you to provide me one example (I'll take links) where a woman was raped and the military did nothing about it, and I'll take it all back. But, just based on my experience, you're wrong.

[noamnety]

126. You're mistaken.

Statistics show that women are at a significantly increased risk of rape and of gang rape if they join the military.

Furthermore, the two situations can't even be compared in any logical way because in the military, women do not have even the freedom to avoid their rapists. They can't just quit their jobs if their coworker is their rapist, they can't just move to a different town if they feel threatened.

That's how we end up with rape victims imprisoned for refusing to return to their rapists (Suzanne Swift), and it's why we get victims like Maria Lauterbach, murdered by her rapist, burned and buried in his yard. And we have this inexplicable statement regarding her rapist/murderer: "(Lance Corporal) Laurean didn't violated the military protective order directing him to stay away from Lauterbach, said Col. Gary Skolowski, the judge advocate general officer for the II Marine Expeditionary Force."

[SKKY]

134. Oh my.

I don't even know where to begin.

I can pick out a million and one examples of rape that happens in the civilian sector, on a college campus, or on a farm in Washington State. But, let me start with the most obvious mistakes in your "assumptions". First, if a person is convicted of rape, the two are IMMEDIATELY separated. No ands, ifs, or buts. The victim is provided a full medical screening, and the results are provided to the command representative (In the case of the Navy, that would be the SAVA advocate), who reports the results to the chain of command. You're assertion that a victim of rape is "forced" to work next to the alleged suspect is just lunacy, and in my 17+ years of service HAS NEVER, EVER HAPPENED. In the 2 cases I've personally dealt with the alleged suspect was placed in custody pending formal charges. In one case, he was removed from the ship within 24 hours and flown back to the states while the investigation was underway.

Some things about the Laurean case you left out. First, why did she wait for more than a month to report the rape? Second, She was raped in May, but discovered she was pregnant in June. Paternity tests have shown that the alleged rapist WAS NOT the father. How many woman have sex within a month of being raped? But, even after all of that, there is this one final piece of info. "At no time did she indicate that she was threatened by Cpl. Laurean," Sokoloski said. "When she was asked if she felt threatened by Cpl. Laurean, she said she did not feel threatened."

What happened to Maria Lauterbach was horrible, and Laurean will spend the rest of his life in jail for it. But, to suggest that his actions are an indication of the type of atmosphere a woman might encounter if she joins the military is just plain wrong.

[noamnety]

137. When some men discuss rape

some things become pretty clear.

"if a person is convicted of rape ... blah blah blah"

Women read that and understand what is implied in that "IF." (The reasons women are pressured particularly in a work case rape not to report at all, the percentages that are dismissed without investigation, the percentages of ones that never go to trial, the percentages of convictions).

IF a person is convicted, the rape victim can win the right to get assigned elsewhere. In the civilian world, the woman has the right to leave her rapist without having to go through a public debacle, be interrogated by her coworkers and barracks-mates, she can leave and maintain her privacy without having to be treated like she is the criminal. And if the courts decide not to believe her, she still has the right to leave her rapist. Most aren't convicted ever, meaning most rape victims in the military are still forced to live and serve next to their rapist.

Your response about the marine rape victim who was murdered demonstrates some of those points perfectly. (She probably wasn't raped, cause she waited a month to report it ... she probably wasn't raped because she put out later - she's probably just a slut and a liar.)

THANK YOU for showing the attitudes that exist in the military. I know you don't get that, but the lurkers will read that and it will help them see why women don't talk to certain men about rape, leaving those men thinking nobody they know is a rape victim. And it helps shed light on a military culture (17 years, you said?) that THINKS it is adequately addressing rape because they deal with rape victims rights if the rapist is convicted. And the trial for rape victims in the military is exactly how you described - she wasn't raped, she took a month to report it. Sure she filed for a restraining order, but ignore that, our internal investigation showed she didn't feel threatened. DISMISSED.

[rd_kent]

159. +10000. Nice job of smashing her unfounded and ignorant claims.

:applause:

[PacerLJ35]

135. There are lots of options for women who have to deal with that

Sex crimes happen...but the military goes to great lengths to educate the people that serve so they know what's considered a crime, and what will happen to you if you do perpetrate such crimes...even as simple as sexual harassment. The cases you cited are not the norm. In those two cases the leadership failed miserably...and yes, sometimes that happens. But by and large the leadership in the military has a zero tolerance policy towards any harassment or assault. I tell the young kids that come into the military to not even bother dating a woman in the military...if a date goes bad or anything along those lines, that could possibly be construed as sexual harassment and he could be in big trouble.

There are very few colleges in our country that have sexual assault advocacy offices...the military does. How many campuses gather all the students together for mandatory sexual harassment/assault training at least once a year? None that I know of...but the military requires it. How many colleges have in writing, a letter from the dean/president stating that sexual assault/harassment is not tolerated and violators will be severely punished? Not many...but all military units are required to have such notices posted in a conspicuous place throughout the unit. How many colleges have deans and presidents fired or held accountable for the sexual practices of their students? None, but the military places such responsibility on the commanders of each unit. I'd be very interested to find out what happened to the commanders and/or supervisors of those two women that were let down by the system...my bets are they no longer hold their commands or positions.

[noamnety]

138. Pffft.

"I'd be very interested to find out what happened to the commanders and/or supervisors of those two women that were let down by the system...my bets are they no longer hold their commands or positions."

My guess is they've been promoted.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PacerLJ35]

168. "My guess"...yes, it's just that...a guess

http://www.sapr.mil

Hmmm, an entire website devoted to sexual harassment/assault, and how to get help for either yourself or others. The material on this website is required to be presented to everyone in the service annually and ever base/post is required to have a sexual assault prevention office. Yes, looks like the military does nothing.

[noamnety]

173. Well, shit, if they have a website

and an "office" - then I guess it's no longer an issue.

Doesn't the government have a law about violence against women? Guess that problem's solved, too.

(hoping you see my point)

[PacerLJ35]

187. Website, offices, mandatory briefings and classes....hopefully you'll see my point too

What other agency out there goes to these lengths? All of our students receive a SAPRO (Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office) briefing prior to attending any training...even if they had their annual brief the day before...doesn't matter, they all receive it. Everyone receives a SAPRO card. Anyone is allowed to go to the SAPRO office without telling anyone in their chain of command. The office is more than just a room with one or two people in it...it's fully staffed with counselors and other coordinators. The website is only one means to reach people...there are flyers, videos that are shown at least annually, and more. They do these classes regularly while deployed, not just annually. The year I spent in Baghdad, I probably watched the video and attended the SAPRO brief several times. New recruits get an entire class on this problem and what to do about it.

What are colleges doing about this problem? What about major corporations? Other government agencies? Again, I'll argue that of the several close female friends I have that were assaulted/raped, all had been victimized during college...this includes at least one woman I know on active duty. She was assaulted in COLLEGE, not on active duty. Yet there are no threads calling for women to boycott universities.

Seriously, what more do you want the military to do? We attempt to educate our force, and if that doesn't work, we prosecute them. The example you gave about the Marine, to me, was a failure of her leadership. But it's not the "norm" within the military, and I'd be very curious to know what happened to her supervisors and officers immediately above her. You say "they were probably promoted", yet there's nothing to suggest that at all. The one instance I knew about of a female who was harassed and the commander knew about it and did nothing resulted in him being fired on the spot by our group commander (full O-6 colonel) and then being PCS'd to a dead-end job somewhere else. Last I heard he was still being investigated by OSI to determine if he was negligent in his command.

[rd_kent]

158. Please provide a link to these "statistics".....

[noamnety]

192. Here you go.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/17/eveningnews/main4872713.shtml

That year there were 2,974 cases of rape and sexual assault across the services. And of those, only 292 cases resulted in a military trial.

And in 2007 there were even fewer prosecutions.

“Of more than 2,200 servicemen investigated for sexual assault, only 181 were prosecuted?” Couric asked Dominguez.

"And in a majority of cases, the punishment doesn't seem to match the crime. Often most offenders only get a reduction in rank or reduced pay."

"The Pentagon acknowledges that some 80 percent of rapes are never reported - making it the most under-documented crime in the military."

[umyeah]

139. Of course they're wrong.....

...it's called blinded by ideology.

[vincna]

117. Can you cite some examples?

If you can't, your post is a waste of time and bandwidth.

[Canuckistanian]

118. Better than joining Halliburton

Although that ain't saying much.

[amborin]

119. artcle says college grads join for lack of other job:

"PLYMOUTH - Though he'd always considered military service, Patrick Logan firmly believed a bachelor's degree was his ticket to middle-class success. A friend enlisted in the Army after high school, Logan said, "because he felt like he didn't have anything else to do.'' Logan was determined to create a better choice for himself.

Then the economy collapsed in 2008, just months after Logan got his degree in criminal justice from Westfield State College.

"I applied for probably a couple hundred jobs with only about two or three interviews,'' said Logan, 23. "At first I thought I must be applying for the wrong jobs. But then I was applying for minimum-wage jobs and not even getting interviews. That kind of brought me back to the Army.''

Logan, who enlisted in November, is part of a growing trend of college-educated young men and women signing up for military service to jump-start their careers, serve their country - and avoid the unemployment line, even if there is a good chance they will end up in a war zone.

The number of new recruits who hold bachelor's degrees jumped by nearly 17 percent last year, from about 5,400 in 2008 to more than 6,400 for the armed services, Pentagon statistics show. The number of enlistees with associate's degrees from community colleges also increased, though more modestly, from roughly 2,380 to just over 2,570. The number of recruits with four- and two-year degrees represents 5.2 percent of the total 2009 military recruitment of 168,000."

snip

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/01/26-2

[PacerLJ35]

133. That may be true in some cases, but there are lots who join because they want to be in the military

I don't know anyone in my squadron that joined simply because they couldn't get a job. Of course I'm a pilot and given that it's a very competitive process to get accepted you probably wouldn't see any of those motivations...but I don't think that characterizes most of the military.

[bobbolink]

120. Or, if they're really lucky, they could be ARRESTED for refusing to put their child in

FOSTER "CARE" in order to be deployed.

Ain't it wonderful?

[PacerLJ35]

132. She wasn't arrested for refusing to put her kid in "foster care"...

She wasn't arrested at all. She was brought up on an Article 32 hearing (Grand Jury) which then moved to a Courts Martial. I don't know all the details of that case but typically in the military there's a pattern of documentation and lesser punishment before someone is brought to an Article 32 hearing.

All single parents in the military are required to have an alternative care plan in place, to ensure their kids are looked after in the event they get deployed. The care givers can be parents, friends...any responsible, trust-worthy adult...but you need to have a plan. I've personally known someone who received an Article 15 (just below a courts martial in severity) for failing to provide a care plan, after being told numerous times to do so. She simply ignored her commander and refused to fill it out...even after a letter of reprimand, she still failed to fill out the form. Therefore she got an Article 15 and finally she filled it out. Had she continued to defy her commander over simply filling out a form (she wasn't actually tasked with a deployment...she was just lazy and irresponsible...I know her personally and she's a train wreck) she probably would have met a courts martial for failure to obey a lawful order, something along those lines.

[noamnety]

141. Parents don't all have another "trustworthy" friend or relative

who have free time and the desire to raise someone else's children for a year or more.

You can threaten court martials as much as you want, but that doesn't create an acceptable "alternative parent" out of thin air. Maybe their own parents were abusive or had drug problems or a close family member was a danger to kids in the family.

Some parents realize it's in their child's best interest to be raised by their own parent. I respect those who are willing to take a stand and do what's best for their children even if it comes with consequences. Sometimes that's what being the best parent is all about.

[PacerLJ35]

169. Having been an NCO, you should know there's typically a paper trail before a courts martial starts

They usually do not simply charge someone in an Article 32 hearing out of thin air, either. I don't know that young woman's particular circumstances, but I'd caution a quick jump to conclusions by stating that the military is heartless and decided to wallop her over the head for nothing. In just about every case I've ever seen (barring those that are very serious with no history, like rape, theft, etc), behavior like this is typically documented via a Letter of Counseling, Letter of Reprimand, and then usually NJP prior to proceeding to an Article 32. Perhaps the military did jump the gun on this one, but you don't know if they did or didn't....hence my post that not everyone who gets in trouble for this sort of thing is totally innocent.

Typically if you are unable to find care for your child, the military can either try to find a non-deployable position, or they can discharge you from service. The fact that this went to a CM tells me there's more to the story than folks like you insist.

[noamnety]

195. I wish I had the faith that you have.

Me, I am still in shock over the general who decided to court martial soldiers for the "crime" of getting pregnant. That's CURRENT culture, and he only backed down because of public outcry, from what I can tell. If that's not a culture of misogyny, I don't know what is.

[PacerLJ35]

196. The pregnancy issue was less about being female and more about an already-existing order

Troops overseas aren't supposed to be having sex, unless they are a married couple (even then, the USAF forbids it...odd logic, but whatever). The general interpreted the fact that if a woman got pregnant, she must have disobeyed a standing order to not have sex (unless she's the Virgin Mary). Afterwards, lots of people pointed out the fact that his new "order" wasn't only unnecessary, it could very easily be interpreted to be misogynist (since there's really no similar standard for men). Women getting pregnant could be punished under the original order to not have sex, period...just as men are punished for the same infraction.

Ironically, the rule to "not have sex" in the combat zone is an attempt to curb sexual assault/rape...males and females are not allowed to be in the living quarters of the opposite sex, and physical activity isn't allowed. Supposedly, the thinking is, if you tell people their careers are on the line and don't have sex, then they won't put themselves in positions leading to assault/rape issues (that goes for males, primarily). Originally the rule covered every situation...even married couples deployed together could not have sex or sleep together. After a few years of lobbying, this was changed for the Army and the other branches but the USAF continued to ban sexual and intimate behavior, even for married couples.

I think nearly everyone I know of thought the rule to prosecute pregnant soldiers was pretty over the top and not needed, hence why it was changed (that, in addition to the aforementioned public outcry). JAG most certainly told the general it was unnecessary. There have been a number of instances of both men and women getting punished in deployed areas for breaking that rule.

[bobbolink]

145. That's not the news report I heard, but whatever.

Obviously, whatever happens to her is just fine by you.

Good bye.

[PacerLJ35]

170. Thanks for putting words in my mouth...typical of some people on here

I didn't say "whatever happens to her is fine". I gave you an example showing that not everyone who is charged by the military is simply a poor victim being terrorized by Uncle Sam. I don't know all the specifics of the case, but just knowing "how things work" with the military justice system, they rarely bring up Article 32 charges on something like this unless there is significant history to warrant such charges (or if she was offered NJP by her commander and she declined, pushing it to a courts martial).

I acknowledge that perhaps those in leadership positions within this woman's unit are being careless, reckless and to quick to bring up charges on her. It's happened in some cases in the past, but typically a JAG won't press for an Article 32 hearing unless he or she is pretty sure there's enough evidence to warrant it. All I'm saying is don't simply bite off on every "poor me" story out there.

[bobbolink]

174. Look, you came on very negatively and aggressivelly to what was an important post.

I answered as politely as I could under the circumstances. There was no need for your reply.

You don't like that I came back in the same tone, that's your problem.

Put me on ignore and save us both the aggravation.

THANK YOU.

[PacerLJ35]

178. I don't do the "ignore" thing...

Coming to a discussion board, only to ignore others that you don't agree with. Wow, what a great way to have a discussion.

My response was likely from the previous thread about this issue, where most people ran away with the idea that the military was simply being heavy-handed without any regard for the exact circumstances.

[rd_kent]

161. Your ignorance is stupefying. Try knowing what you are talking about before posting next time.

[invictus]

123. +1

[NNN0LHI]

124. Deleted sub-thread

Fooled ya didn't I?

Don

[benEzra]

125. My niece did 4 years in the Army, as a truck mechanic.

She's now in college at the University of Maine, largely paid for by her Army service.

No, she wasn't raped; she came out of it mature, confident, and empowered; and she is now going to college and making a far better life for herself than she probably would have had otherwise.

There are a lot of very professional women in the U.S. military, and they do a damn good job. A lot of people fought very hard to give women the opportunity to serve, and I'm not sure why some people want to take away from that.

Some of those women fly President Obama's helicopter, BTW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58ghUReF6-g

A question---do you think the reality of college date rape means that women should avoid going to college? Why or why not?

[PacerLJ35]

131. I've been in the military for 18 years

Every unit I've been in, there was always a memo posted in the unit (or throughout the unit) stating that sexual harassment, assault and rape were not tolerated and those who perpetrated those crimes would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Here on the base I'm assigned to, we court martial several people a year...for everything from inappropriate touching, inappropriate behavior, to actual assaults. If convicted they are generally given the maximum sentence and shipped off to a federal prison. There is an entire office at each military installation dedicated to handling sex crimes of all types and severities....to include even male victims (it happens...rare, but it does).

The very assertion that the military ignores or even encourages sex crimes is ludicrous. The worst thing I can think of about the military's response is they aren't always able to convict...but given that civil courts have the same problem (rape is notoriously difficult to try, given that it is often a he said, she said affair and real evidence can be hard to come by).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. Isn't this the same sort of logic behind burkas?

[Rebubula]

144. HOLY CRAP!!

Most astute post in the thread.....


Sadly, rape is a problem that women must endure in all walks of life. The military just gets the focus due to the hate of the institution.


But...high points to HFPS for pointing this out. Just awesome.

[rd_kent]

148. Your ignoranace is stupefying.

You really do not have a fucking clue. Not even a little bit.

[Orsino]

162. I applaud a woman brave enough to join the military...

...and determined to make it better. They deserve better than our best efforts to support them.

[PacerLJ35]

171. Agreed...until preconceived notions like the OP's are addressed, nothing will change

[Freddie Stubbs]

166. Welcome to Barack Obama's America, where

the military encourages young women to discuss military service with their mothers.

[KonaKane]

175. Both women and men should boycott the military

until we decide it is to be a defensive force again, instead of a world romping rogue entity at the behest of a president's personal beefs.

[Freddie Stubbs]

185. Recruitment is up. All services met or exceeded recruitment goals last year:

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123177706

[slackmaster]

176. It's sad to see so many anti-choicers on DU

:-(

[KonaKane]

179. I think you have misinterpreted the ire here

It's not really about gender, it's about the bullshit propaganda put out by the military to snare more recruits. Whether you are female or male, I hope you don't sign up right now. We need a shake up and reconstruction of our military and foreign policy, not more fodder waiting for the next corpo-gig in a far off land.

[PacerLJ35]

183. How do you have a reconstruction of the military if no one will serve?

Is it entirely possible to try and get more progressively minded people to serve in positions as NCOs and officers? I'm one of those now, and already I've at least got many people thinking with regard to various topics that the military usually leans to the right on (ie, gays in the military, always going around trying to police up everyone else, etc).

[KonaKane]

191. You start with policy from the top down.

Which it sounds like what you are doing, and I applaud that. A boycott was meant to send a message, or at least put some teeth behind one.

[PacerLJ35]

194. Fortunately over the past few years, policy has changed drastically

As I've been discussing with a former member of the military (who served nearly 20 years ago), the policy towards sexual assault and rape has been radically changed and the leadership is aggressive in dealing with it. Unfortunately, all the public hears about are the cases that fall short. No one is talking about the number of cases that are successfully prosecuted, or the fact that women can now seek counseling and medical care without letting anyone in their chain of command know (ie, staying confidential). All those changes have occurred in the past 3-4 years.

[noamnety]

197. Less than 10% of reported rapes in the military make it to trial

With that statistic, I'm having trouble finding a suitable response to this complaint: "No one is talking about the number of cases that are successfully prosecuted."

[PacerLJ35]

198. The military allows victims to decide if they want to press charges

The current system has two ways to let victims decide how they want to handle it. They can choose restricted reporting, which allows them to confidentially seek care and counseling, or they can choose to prosecute and press charges, which obviously does not allow their case any confidentiality. Any assault counselor will tell you that one of the biggest problems in prosecuting rapists and those who assault women is the fact that women by and large do not want the stigma associated with being raped, and will not report the crimes. I'm not saying there's any fault with the woman for not wanting to report it. But be careful with the statistics because it often doesn't tell the whole story. If it's true that most women will opt for a restricted reporting (and no prosecution), or not say anything at all, then it's hard to find complete fault with the military for not prosecuting violators if no one says anything.

One other fact...this coming from a friend (and a woman) who's a JAG in the Air Force...rape and most domestic cases are often very hard to prosecute. The military has to find a defendant guilty just like a civilian jury does, and often rape trials are notoriously difficult to prosecute. The JAG will typically only bring someone to trial if they think they can actually convict...just like a civilian court. If there's scant evidence to nail the guy, there's often not much the court can do. This isn't really a statement saying the military is anti-woman...it's just how the system of "innocent until proven guilty" works. It's unfortunate, but that's why the military again has the current system, where regardless of the legal status of the situation, the woman can receive help.

Please understand that I'm not trying to defend the idea that the military is an all boy's club and they can do what they want. I'm simply trying to point out that the situation isn't as black and white as many on this thread have made it out to be, and the military has taken major steps in the past few years to change the culture and the system.