So, now we're debating an excise tax? How far we have fallen.

[FourScore]

So, now we're debating an excise tax? How far we have fallen.
by Turkana
Mon Jan 11, 2010 at 07:03:29 PM PST

So, now we're arguing about an excise tax. Apparently the unions don't understand. Apparently, the unions are anti-Democrat, and promulgate right wing memes. Such is the death spiral of political discourse.

We never got to argue about single payer. It was seen as impossible, so aiming for it was seen as pointless. Even though though doing so might have reframed the entire debate, by allowing us to negotiate down from it to a public option, which would have been seen, from the start, as the compromise it was.

We argued about the nature of the public option. Was opt-out acceptable? Were triggers? Every step of the way, some accepted every step down, along the way. Every compromise. Every capitulation. Every gift to corporate interests. Every relaxation of what would have been real regulatory reform.

Then the public option was dropped. We argued over whether a Medicare expansion would be enough compensation for dropping a public option. Some said it was. It was enough. It was imperfect, but it was good. Then the Medicare expansion was dropped. And the same people who had been telling us what a great idea it was began telling us it wasn't that big a deal, anyway.

We lost reimportation of medicines. We lost the ability of HHS to negotiate cheaper prices. We pushed the Overton Window backward on reproductive choice. And we were told that it was all good. No matter what we gave up, no matter how badly the bill was eviscerated, the same people kept telling us it all would be okay. And even if it isn't okay, we can fix it. How the Congress that couldn't get it right in the first place was going to fix it never was explained. How the Congress we will have next year, with smaller majorities, will fix it never was explained.

We got mandates. Once upon a time, mandates were bad and the public option was good. Now, the public option is gone and mandates are here. The anti-trust exemption all but negates any positives that might have come from the exchange. Collusion. Coming to an exchange near you.

There is inadequate enforcement. There is inadequate regulation. There is nothing to minimize the literally deadly effect of ERISA section 514. There is nothing to ensure that people mandated to buy private insurance will have their conditions treated. People with pre-existing conditions now will have coverage. Because they will have to buy coverage. But there will remain no mechanism to ensure that those pre-existing conditions will be treated. Some might say that sounds unfair.

There is so much wrong with the bill, and there has been so much wrong with the process. But it really can be summarized thusly: once upon a time, we were debating the will to pass a public option; now, we're debating the efficacy and fairness of an excise tax.

We're going to get a health insurance bill. We're not going to get a health care bill. The difference between the two defines what has gone wrong.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/1/11/824125/-So,-now-were-debating-an-excise-tax-How-far-we-have-fallen.

[katandmoon]

1. K&R

[Skittles]

2. the bill is a gigantic piece of garbage

EPIC FAIL

[highplainsdem]

3. +1

[lsewpershad]

55. plus one more

[ThomCat]

11. You are absolutely right.

But that won't stop the cheerleaders from insisting that it's wonderful just because Obama says so.

[Skittles]

12. if they are still supporting it now

they are no better than the bushbots were

[chimpymustgo]

17. Sadly, we have our very own version. Just as blind. Just as slavish. Just as dangerous.

[Donnachaidh]

21. I would say even more dangerous

Because they pass themselves off as someone who is supposed to work for the common good, while cheerleading for celebrity and corporations.

[theFrankFactor]

71. +1 Times a Million - A Fucking Pussy-Ass Sell out.

[MichiganVote]

80. They intended it to be. Its a farce.

[Sherman A1]

83. Pardon me, but I disagree

The Bill would have to improve by several magnitudes in order to become a gigantic piece of garbage.:hi:

[Raine]

94. EXACTLY! nt

[doc03]

113. Plus another 1 n/t

[leftstreet]

4. The Republicans could never have passed this steaming pile of shit

Disgusting

:puke:

[Faryn Balyncd]

9. You're right

[Kansas Wyatt]

22. This SHIT bill is the Republicans' wet dream.

Courtesy of Obama & Democrats, Inc.

[defendandprotect]

45. Had Bush given us this health care legislation we'd be crying "FOUL" . . .!!!

[invictus]

23. +1

[MissDeeds]

49. +2

[highplainsdem]

5. K&R

[AzDar]

6. A disaster.

:puke:

[greennina]

7. If I can't get it for free, I can't afford it.

I guess I'm going to prison. At least there I'll get medical care and my kids will then get free care from the state. It's sad that our leaders think sending us to prison is the solution to health care. It is, but it's the classic cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Larry Ogg]

54. And just think, the cost of keeping you in corporate prison (if it ever comes to that)

would pay for yours and a lot of other peoples health care.

Isn't great what happens in a pretend democracy where the predator class and their corporations hand pick most of the venal sycophants / politicians we get to vote for in our russian roulette choose the lessor evil elections? And after the victorious celebrations we can then sit around and whine about how we're being sold of to the highest bidder.

[amborin]

8. K&R

[DesertFlower]

10. i really don't understand why

anyone would be against the "public option". i've been eligible for medicare for many years, but hubby's insurance is better. the key word is "OPTION".

if the insurance companies are giving people what they need at a reasonable rate they wouldn't have to worry about people using the public option.

[paulk]

13. let's face it

today's Democratic party, and especially it's leadership, are basically Nixon era Republicans.

[flyarm]

26. Nixon was trying to offer better than what our dems are offering now!

believe that..look it up!!

[laughingliberal]

27. I'd have to say they are a little to the right of Nixon era Republicans

with some notable exceptions who are getting rolled by the administration in every debate.

[Raine]

95. Seriously and sadly I believe they are worse. nt

:-(

[gleaner]

14. An excise tax is recessive taxation ....

It may sound fair if people don't think it out, but it puts a burden on everyone whether they can afford it or not. That is one of my problems with a sales tax too. It doesn't allow for the differences in income of the payers.

An excise tax is not indexed to favor lower incomes; it is not indexed so the rich pay their fair share. Basically a fair income tax on the rich and a surcharge on very rich corporations would pay for a health care bill. A real on with a single payer option. This bill favors the health insurance industry and does their insureds no real good. They should be paying their own way not depending on people who can't afford it to pay it for them.

[DFW]

19. The VAT in Europe is a mess

Various countries exempt different items, or tax them at a discounted VAT rate, total chaos, not to reiterate
the obvious--that it hits lower income people harder than high income people. Plus, it is like governmental
heroin--once they get their fix, they need it at ever-increasing levels, and they never detox or get clean.
The rates are not harmonized, and the various countries spend a fortune on tax collection of the difference.
In Germany, they even make you pay value-added tax on the gasoline tax!

Plus, there is that little matter of the States in the USA levying their own income and sales taxes already,
something European provinces do not do on their own.

[JDPriestly]

62. All taxes are unfair. All taxes are a mess. But we need them.

And we need a VAT or national sales tax in the US. Why?

Because, an income tax system such as ours taxes goods and services delivered in the US to support the government. An income tax is not imposed on goods imported and services performed outside of our country.

One of the reasons that American workers are not "competitive" with foreign workers is that Americans have to be paid enough to in turn pay income taxes and still survive. Our huge military-industrial complex is funded from the taxes on the paychecks of our workers.

If we had a national VAT or sales tax, goods imported from China and services performed in India could be taxed and relieve some of the tax burden from workers and their employers. Lowering income taxes and imposing a national VAT would encourage job creation at home.

So, that is why I support a VAT. Food, children's clothing, shoes, the very basic necessities should be exempt. But things like computers, I-phones, TVs, books, adult clothing, cars, etc. should be subject to a VAT. That way, American businesses and workers would be competing on a more even ground than they are now.

[JVS]

79. That doesn't make any sense.

"One of the reasons that American workers are not "competitive" with foreign workers is that Americans have to be paid enough to in turn pay income taxes and still survive"

Yeah, and with a VAT, they'll need to be paid more to afford things.

"If we had a national VAT or sales tax, goods imported from China and services performed in India could be taxed and relieve some of the tax burden from workers and their employers"

Goods from America would also be taxed, and since the American goods tend to be more expensive the result would be that the premium paid for domestic goods would grow even larger. And your idea that workers and bosses would be relieved of the burden of income taxation is ludicrous, because as I pointed out earlier workers would need higher wages and for employers it would be an absolute disaster because now instead of taxing what the profit they make after paying for all expenses and salaries, you're going to be be raising the price of every input by that VAT.

[JDPriestly]

106. Until last year, Germany was the biggest exporting nation,

bigger than China. Part of Germany's secret is its VAT tax system.

Yes, American goods would be taxed. But right now, significant taxes are derived only from American goods in the form of the income taxes on workers.

The VAT should replace some of our income taxes, not be in addition to them.

Another good thing about the VAT is that it would apply to all money spent whether it was qualifies as capital gains or corporate profit or anything else.

Poor people do not spend much on items other than food, health care and children's clothing so they would not pay very much of the VAT taxes.

[JVS]

107. That doesn't address the problems I mentioned.

"Poor people do not spend much on items other than food, health care and children's clothing so they would not pay very much of the VAT taxes."
This is BS, and what you're essentially advocating is the pricing of poor people out of the market for anything other than necessities. VAT taxes are regressive. Seriously, this kind of shit makes Steve Forbes' flat tax seem good in comparison. Look at this data http://www.leftfootforward.org/2009/08/vat-increase-to-20-would-be-intently-regressive/ The reason is quite simple. Poor people spend all of their income, Rich people have plenty of money left over after buying what they need. They usually use the surplus to invest and generate more income for themselves.

If by your reasoning the income tax on workers is a tax on american goods because the workers' employers need to be paid more. Then the vat on imports would also hurt american employers because they'd need to pay their workers more to afford them as well.

As for Germany's success, it's not the VAT that makes them an exporter. It's the fact that Germany is surrounded by trading partners that don't have the heavy industry and the associated engineering networks that would allow them to produce the products that Germany makes.

[truedelphi]

87. Agree with you in all you say here. n/t

[DFW]

112. Agreed that we need taxes of some sort, but I don't follow all of the rest

I don't see how an income tax taxes goods and services. That is what a consumption tax (sales or VAT) does. An income
tax taxes income, pure and simple, whether personal or corporate. Our huge military-industrial complex is funded not
only by US government expenditures, but also by arms sales to foreign governments. I'm sure there are plenty of sales
to a few non-governmental unsavory entities as well.

Goods imported from other countries can be (and are) taxed upon importation by US Customs. These tariffs are imposed
and set according to a complex set of calculations determined both by domestic considerations and WTO rules. No VAT
need be imposed if the Customs regulations do what they are supposed to do. If we weren't so addicted to cheap goods
from China, we could impose punitive tariffs on imports from them until they allowed their currency to rise to a level
realistic enough to reflect its true value, and then their goods wouldn't be so cheap any more in dollar terms. Again,
this is not something that can be influenced by a domestic VAT. That would inhibit consumption of American-made goods
as well as foreign-made goods. That's the nature of a VAT--it hits everyone and everything. You can always make exemptions,
but then, as you pointed out, in order not to hit lower income people unfairly, certain necessities should be exempted
altogether. And then? Makers of everything will pay lobbyists to get exemptions for all sorts of products as necessities.
Senators from Vermont will want to exempt maple syrup, Senators from Colorado will want to exempt ski vacations, Senators
from Michigan will want to exempt cars, etc etc. See where this goes? After 30 years of living much of the time in Europe,
I can tell you that the VAT has been tinkered with separately by every country more often than it has rained in Seattle,
and the arguments still fly right and left on how to modify it, eliminate it, reduce it, increase it, redistribute it, ad nauseam.

As long as each of the 50 states can impose their own income taxes AND their own sales taxes, I say forget the supplemental
imposition of a national VAT, as we are so spread out and diverse that it can't be imposed fairly on a practical basis where
the country can agree on its level or on what products and services it can be imposed. If American businesses are to compete
on a more even ground, trade barriers need to be erected to make goods produced in Chinese sweatshops as expensive as similar
items produced by American companies that treat their employees fairly. But good luck in implementing that at this point. We
have gotten so addicted to cheap products from China and elsewhere in Asia that we have ceased to even have a viable industry
producing many goods. As for the Europeans, they have gotten so addicted to their VAT, that they increase it again and again
and again, and don't even see poor people begging in train stations at night because their welfare money comes up short for
food around the 25 of every month. My wife, who is a social worker, sometimes buys hardship cases a sandwich or two out of
her own pocket money just because the system is too cumbersome to be adjusted to where they can get an extra 20 euros to eat
for the last few days until their next handout comes. The food is just too expensive.

[liberation]

69. Huh? No... not even close. Have you lived in the EU, have you owned a business or draw income there?

The VAT tax is a rather fair form of taxation, and it is fairly straight forward.

There are many things that are a mess in the EU, the VAT is not one of them. It is complex, that is for sure, but associating complexity with failure is more a projection of the person making the accusation.

[JVS]

76. DFW is stationed in the EU, Germany IIRC

[DFW]

104. Your memory serves you well

Although: I am anything but stationary. My work usually takes me to a different country every day.

There is no rest for the weary.

Actually, you caught me in a rare moment home in Dallas. Tomorrow, off to Washington (dinner with
Helen Thomas Friday night!), and then back off to the cold rain and snow of Central Europe (but
also back to my wife, whose smile could melt a glacier).

[DFW]

82. Have I lived in the EU?

Only for about the last 30 years. My wife, a German citizen on a social worker's salary, and dealing with people
of low(er) income for all her professional life, knows all about the German social system, its strong and weak
points, and ALL of my friends either work for European businesses or own them, or else work for their respective
governments. I speak fluent or near fluent German, French, Dutch, Swedish, Spanish, Catalan, and Italian (Russia
is not an EU member). Most of my best friends are European, and one of them is a judge on the tax court in Düsseldorf.
They universally share my opinion on the VAT. Call them, and me, all failures if you will. I stand by my many and
diverse European friends and relatives, and value their opinion over yours, failures that we may be in your expert eyes.

[gleaner]

85. It sounds like you have lived a very interesting life .....

I don't think the EU and particularly you are failures. I was addressing the US only. I do not know how the VAT tax works for you. My job here was for Internal Revenue Service auditing tax returns here. I only know US tax law and I am trying to forget it as hard as I can. ;)

Go gently, I have no wish to diminish your life or experiences. It sounds a lot more intriguing than mine.

[DFW]

105. I guess it depends on what you consider intriguing

If a little over thirty years of getting up before the sun does, and more rain than I thought could ever fall,
is intriguing, plus if tracking down organized criminals from points east (and that is just a sideline) and the
occasional mission to the far east or the Andes is intriguing, then I guess what I do qualifies. I certainly get
to meet some interesting people along the way, anyhow. Some, I am even proud to call friends, and my visits to
Washington are never boring, although backstabbing there seems to be every bit as prevalent as it is in the Balkans,
even if the knives are of a different nature.

The VAT system in the EU does bring in revenue, but it is still a very complicated mess, as I said before. If
the member states could harmonize how they use it, and made it fairer and less cumbersome, so as to resemble
a straight sales tax, I could get behind it. But I have seen it manipulated, circumvented, augmented, and
changed more times than I think I have eaten breakfast, and believe me that when even EU tax officials sometimes
throw up their hands in frustration trying to figure out which way is up, it qualifies as a mess. My wife, the
social worker in the Ruhr/Bergisches Land area, sees close up how people on Harz IV scrape by, and the 19% MWSt
is a punishing burden to them when they start to run out of money for food toward the end of each month. If the
USA were to instigate such a thing, it would have to reconcile the existence of such a tax with the various (and
varied) state sales taxes, along with states screaming at each other for redistribution (states that charge sales tax
already vs. those that do not vs. those that charge lower ones than others)--pretty much like there is now among
the EU states, except that they all charge it in some form or another nationally, seeing as how individual provinces
do not levy their own sales taxes. But they charge different rates for different products, and there is no harmony at
all. Having seen the results of the VAT in the EU, plus the total horror of implementation and hopeless confusion in
enforcement, I really don't recommend it for the USA, which, after all, remains my homeland.

Consider your sentiments for going in peace reciprocated. I only wished to point out that my point of view derived
from close-up, long-term experience.



I suppose I could have laid out more detail in my initial opposition to the idea, so mea cupla on that score.

[gleaner]

84. I know about excessive sales tax ....

I live in LA and our sales tax is sky high thanks to our various governmental entities. It adds to the jump in prices from inflation and makes it really hard to buy taxable food items, sundries and other things we used to be able to afford much more easily.

The VAT is not my area of expertise but it is also a recessive form of taxation. I agree with OP that taxes are necessary. They bring in revenue too run the country, but I am in favor of income taxes over excise or sales taxes. Everybody pays, but if the exemptions were revamped and higher income people actually paid higher taxes it would fund just about everything. By higher income try $100,000 or greater AGI for single filers and $500,000 or greater AGI for joint returns. For large corporations a percentage of profits based on amount and windfall profit taxes when the profits are huge and are reached by fraudulent or monopolistic practices. This tax would be paid, I reiterate based on the same exemptions that the middle class and poor have access to which are basically bupkus not all the party favors the various corporations have received from one congress after another over the years.

[DFW]

111. In general, I agree

Consumption taxes are tempting, but hit lower income people hardest as a rule, whereas income taxes can be graduated
to target those who can afford them most. You can always start to exempt necessities, but then everyone who is selling
anything will pay lobbyists to argue why their products or services should considered necessities. I can see your $500K
barrier for couples, though would make it $250K for individuals, as they tend to spend plenty and put it back into the economy.
I am also for windfall taxes on profits especially on such entities as oil companies. I would give big breaks for renewable
energy companies if run legitimately, as I see them as the salvation of the planet in terms of keeping habitable in the long
run. I have friends in California, including one guy who left a $100,000 job in Dallas for a $200,000 job in Orange county,
and had to downsize in terms of his living quarters. His take-home from $80K in Dallas bought him fancier digs than his
take-home from $200K in Orange county. At least he can now complain under palm trees.

[Vermontgrown]

15. This country

will become cripple by this load of shit. Courts systems already overloaded by the war on drugs, will become so distorted by a "mandate", the backlog will be years behind. Can the assholes that are behind this shit be any fuckin' dumber. Do these people actually have college degrees. If that's the case where does someone get such an uneducation, and still make over $170,000 a year.

[Kermitt Gribble]

16. Excellent post, FourScore K&R!

Some here feel we should suck it up and be happy with this scam of a HCR bill - all they want is a 'victory' for the president.

[flyarm]

28. or maybe they are on a payroll? eom

[Kermitt Gribble]

33. Yep. n/t

[fascisthunter]

38. I Think So Too...

[earth mom]

108. No doubt. nt

[change_notfinetuning]

18. They're not even making sausage. More like importing dog food from China.

[defendandprotect]

46. +1000%

[kenny blankenship]

20. We didn't fall. We were pushed.

Nobody fucks up "reform" this bad by accident or misadventure.

[freddie mertz]

24. This is an epic failure for the Democratic party.

It may even be so bad that the party will be swept out of office in three years and spend a decade or more in political exile.

How did we get ourselves into this quagmire?

[flyarm]

29. ever think..it was all in the plan??????? eom

[Uncle Joe]

70. I'm sad to say it, but yes.

The corporatist wing of the Democratic Party need the Republicans back in power to act as a fig leaf to obscure the stealth reality of the Corporatist Party from the American People, all the while continually pitting liberal against conservative and Democrat against Republican as a macro "good cop/bad cop" or professional wrestling good guy vs villain.

The corporate media act as the carnival mirror distorting reality in order to retard the American People's; focus on all aspects of the critical issues or serious reform which affect their lives but may end up costing the corporate supremacists and oligarch rulers.

I believe this bill will be a catastrophe; for the Democratic Party and the American People and when the Republicans return to power, I suspect it will be made more so.

[earth mom]

109. Yep, let the rethugs do all the dirty work so the dems look pure as the driven snow...

too bad we're on to their bullshit now. :grr:

[Edweird]

96. I'm there. "They" needed a personality that could pass the crap * couldn't.

[FiveGoodMen]

63. The party may be swept out of the Senate and the House next year

(depending on how many Senate seat are up for grabs)

[flyarm]

25. ahhh come on..there must be some kind of giant fucking chess game ..right?

or it is still to early to demand anything of the new administration..or there is some fucking kind of pony out there that we all want or need..or the "haters" just don't like any kind of bone or horse poop they are throwing us..

ahhh come on..we just expect too much from our democratic leadership..or unleadership..we are supposed to stfu..and go along to get along...don't you know!!.:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

When i started posting about this debockle in Sept and i posted warnings of what was going to happen ..there were very few of us ringing alarm bells..we were shouted down and told to stfu..

Now the ring leaders of the campaign to shut us up..are a very small minority here at du..you see them ( i know you do and I bet you can name them as well ) and so do I..they are very obvious..and very determined to spread propaganda and lies..outright lies..and sell the American people and the middle class out...along with the unleadership of the "new" democratic party.

Now...

We can take our power back ...and we can send a very loud message to this White House and Congress

The middle class... can do it..You really can..

Get on the phone or email or write a letter to a National Union..write a letter to your editor ..tell them you support the fight of Labor in protecting your health care..not insurance reform..but your health care..Ask them what you can do to help them..after all, they will, by protecting their union members, also, be helping the middle class...so offer your help and your support.

Then call congress and tell them you will sit out Nov if this bill gets passed as it stands right now! And mean it.

It will take all of us to stop this piece of shit bill..that has nothing to do with "care" or "Health"..

It has everything to do with Insurance profits and Ceo's at the insurance and Big Pharma corps.

Do It..Labor needs all of our voices to stop this shit .:fistbump: in solidarity...:patriot: and stand up for the middle class !

[laughingliberal]

31. +++1000 nt

[defendandprotect]

32. If we want single payer health care we are going to have to RALLY for it . . .

We've had years of calling, writing, etal and it's moving no one --

They ALWAYS know what the sentiment of the public is -- it's populist -- it's

anti-government to the extent it is owned by CORPORATIONS . . .

However, there has been no fear of the public for more than 40 years because they

have used right wing violence to kill all leadership -- all movements --

We have to reinstate peaceful revolution -- there's no other way.

[flyarm]

37. the Unions rallied their asses off to get Obama and dems into office..

expect the opposite type of Rallying from here on in!!

[defendandprotect]

42. "Rally" has a few meanings . . .I mean OUT IN THE STREET RALLYING . . .

And, sadly, the Unions, the women's groups -- and the Democratic Party

did not call Democats/liberals out to rally for health care/single payer-

Medicare for all -- or any other kind of health care!

Neither is that failure by accident or ineptitude --

Meanwhile, we were treated all summer and fall to right wing anti-health care

activists in streets compliments of FreedomWorks and more fake right wing paid for

actions!

[Jackpine Radical]

41. The one point upon which I disagree mightily is about sitting out 2010.

I hope every Blue Dog gets primaried, and that where the progressives don't win the primaries, there are Green or socialist candidates, and all the progressives vote for these candidates instead of sitting it out. I want the Blue Dogs to know that they are losing because they terminally pissed-off the left, not because the Teabaggers beat them for being too far left. You know damn well the press will try to spread the lie that the Dems lost because they got too "socialist" when the exact opposite is true. We need to create an "audit trail" of leftist votes so everyone can see what happened and why the Blue Dogs got their asses kicked.

[defendandprotect]

44. We have to come together as a voting bloc . . . not wandering off separately ....

Meanwhile, Rahm is breeding more "blue dog" puppies to run against liberal

and progressive Dems --

Imagine the fantastic loss of Sen. Byron Dorgan .... and no reaction from leadership

to amend that loss -- i.e., "negotiation" on drug prices --

renewal of "Glass Steagall" -- !!!

Imagine!!!



PS: And, would say that the AFL-CIO have to have some ideas on a Plan B . . .

will they have the guts to carry them out?

Wm. Greider and Michael Moore have been talking about targeting right wing Dems . . .

at the least!

Michael Moore has been noticeably missing since the health care fiasco and the new

SURGE in Afghanistan --

He also got burned conveniently in the 2000 election "scapegoating" of Nader --

and I don't think he's going to risk much.

[Jackpine Radical]

47. Yes, I agree with that.

Say more about how we can "come together."

[defendandprotect]

50. Look at how organized corporations/elites are . . . !!! Yet citizens aren't organized in any way!!

How can that be?

When I first got involved with the Dems ... at local levels/women's groups...

one of the first and most obvious thing was to organize those on welfare --

those who were unemployed.

Look at Senior Citizens -- What do they have to represent them . . .

AARP -- an insurance company!!


Meanwhile, needless to say liberals/progressives have to come together --

and to discusss these issues and to decide on a Plan B.

That can be done without a PARTY involvement of any kind --

[Jackpine Radical]

61. Odd--A friend and I were just talking about something like that yesterday.

Sort of a more focused resurrection of the salon movement.

[defendandprotect]

30. And Dems continue to pretend we're reinventing the wheel . . . which we can't afford, anyway -!!!

Meanwhile, every other nation has managed to do what "America" -- the wealthiest

nation in the world can't seem to do--!!


Ohhhh.... yeah!!

[Kermitt Gribble]

34. "Meanwhile, every other nation has managed to do what "America" -- the wealthiest

nation in the world can't seem to do--!!"

Great point. And, why are we the "wealthiest" nation in the world? Greed. We have the largest, most advanced military in the world that has been doing nothing but fighting for elite financial interests for the past 65 years.

[defendandprotect]

110. The nation is wealthy in its natural resources -- land --

much of which was passed on to the elites at the very beginning --

Of course, a nation we stole from the Native American -

And a nation built with the enslavement of the African here -- and

the profits from it.

Even the Civil War was a money maker for the elites, enriching those who would do evil.

Capitalism, itself, is a system intended to move the wealth and resources of a nation

from the many to the few --

And our imperialism has moved quite a few nations into our sphere as "territory" or

"possession" -- i.e., colonies -- and new States. And this undermining and manipulation

and overtaking of other nations by US certainly hasn't ended!


IMO, one of the major reasons why they have fought so hard to prevent America from gaining

any real system of universal health care is because the intention is to knock it out in

other smaller nations. France continues to fight for its benefits --

UK's health care system was brutally starved by Thatcher . . . at least as I recall it/??

[DisgustedInMN]

35. Excellent piece, thanks.

We are screwed, any way you look at it.

I can't and won't in good conscience support anyone who has handed this boot on the neck of working people to the criminal insurance murderers.

Violent revolution does not seem nearly as impossible as it did only one year ago, not that I advocate it, but my senses tell me that an ugly storm is gathering...

... just sayin'.

[piratefish08]

36. This bill stopped resembling any kind of reform MONTHS ago.......

and yet still people cheer and kill themselves looking for the "better than nothing" silver lining.

[winyanstaz]

39. If this bill passes....there can be no more doubt...

Our government has betrayed us all. Republican or Democrat, there is no more guessing. Its in our face and we cannot ignore, deny or turn away any longer.
They are NOT listening to us..they have sold us out along with their own souls.

[Pooka Fey]

40. Sighhhh. KnR

Thanks for posting.

[ProSense]

43. So now we're defending "junk insurance"?

It's NOT a Cadillac tax, it's a junk insurance tax

Not only is the author of the above piece completely misinformed (the excise tax only applies to employer-based plans and small businesses are protected), but the piece is basically using the tax to protect "junk insurance."

The excise tax is going to be a win-win, helping to drive down cost and relieving middle class workers of this gross burden.

For those against this, what is the proposal to end this practice? Taxing the wealthy, which should be part of the plan (and is part of the Senate plan), is not going to do anything about these high-priced "junk" plans.

[Jackpine Radical]

48. You can't fix junk insurance plans without gov't regulation.

The excise tax is a blunt instrument. People of modest means will find plans with high copays and deductibles to be essentially unusable. Even if you're insured with one of those shit plans, a $5k deductible and 30% copay will still bankrupt you in a medical catastrophe. The only answer is for the gov't to require that plans provide reasonable coverage. Tax pressure won't get you there.

[ProSense]

52. Your assumption is flawed

The tax is on insurance companies and has nothing to do with copays and deductibles, which have also been eliminated for preventive care.

[Jackpine Radical]

60. The Ensign amendment is a Trojan horse.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/01/08-12

[liberation]

68. LOL...

Still thinking that ocean front property you bought in Arizona is going to be a gold mine any day now? LOL

[sui generis]

53. It's two things. It's a windfall tax, AND an income tax.

Keep the windfall portion - that's appropriate. The back-end income tax - that's just stupid. Like a mandated insurance plan that doesn't have a public option, real protections for pre-existing, a four year exclusionary period, and no pricing collective bargaining provisions.

It stinketh like the turd it is.

[ProSense]

56. Not true. n/t

[sui generis]

57. not brilliant rejoinder. /nt

[Bluebear]

78. It's all Headquarters can come up with anymore. nt

[grahamhgreen]

81. I prefer the term "Crapsurance". Insurance that never pays out.

[MissDeeds]

51. K&R #100

Yet another outrage.

[Goldstein1984]

58. My first smiley face, and it isn't smiling.

:puke:
Health Care Reform Bill

[TheKentuckian]

59. K&R

[sam sarrha]

64. bill doesn't tax group plans...

[RoccoR5955]

65. I often wondered why, in the beginning, when Obama changed

the meme from "Health Care Reform," to "Health Insurance Reform."
Now I know why... It's a massive bailout for the health insurance companies.
So much for not taxing the middle class as well.
I think there needs to be a massive demo on DC telling Obama to not tax the middle class, and give us UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE, as there is in EVERY OTHER CIVILIZED COUNTRY ON THE FREAKIN' PLANET!

[theFrankFactor]

73. The Massive Demo Needs to be About Getting Corporations the FUCK Out of Our Government!

[RoccoR5955]

93. I'm surely up for that Frank.

We have to return to a government for, by, and of WE THE PEOPLE,
NOT
them, the corporations.

[ima_sinnic]

66. kill the bill, it is a monstrosity

[DebbieCDC]

67. K&R

Kill the Bill

[sulphurdunn]

72. What is about to happen in the name of promoting

the general welfare in the name of health care reform is possibly the single biggest double cross by so called representative government in the history of the United State. You can lay blame for that at the doorstep of the Democratic Party, and fools like me who have supported it unconditionally for far too many years, thinking it the lesser of two evils.

[Vidar]

74. Recommended. Obama is a master of "bait & switch".

[Horse with no Name]

75. Sheer perfection. n/t

[Cleita]

77. We are scraping the bottom.

In not debating single payer, we were all ready to lap up the dregs known as a weak public option, but they won't even let us have that. We are at the bottom of the barrel and now they are letting us lick up the splinters with this excise tax. Our country does not belong to us anymore.

[scentopine]

86. Well done - thanks for this. -nt

[scentopine]

88. here is how pre-existing conditions got worked into senate bill

The rich on Wall Street are turning us against each other!

We need to turn against Wall Street!

http://www.healthbeatblog.com/2010/01/how-insurers-may-use-wellness-programs-to-target-preexisting-conditions.html


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7428413


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/experts-say-senate-bill-has-critical-loophole-2010-01-07


Jesus - this is going to screw us all.

[ibegurpard]

89. kick

kill the bill
seriously
it just can't be allowed to pass as it is

[rhett o rick]

90. k & r 152 nt

[stray cat]

91. The dem version is taxes are ok as long as I don't have to pay anything for my health care!

[gtar100]

92. Now, now. It's important to consider the pro's and con's of this bill.

The professional lobbyists who are getting paid to make sure it's all in their best interest and the con artists who are trying to shove it down our throats.

[TrollBuster9090]

97. The White House and DNC were obviously hoping

The White House and DNC were obviously hoping that the campaign contributions and campaign volunteers provided by the progressive wing of the party could be replaced by "centrists" with a move to the right. We shall see.

I'm sure to Rahm and his ilk that it made perfect sense. By going bat-shit crazy, as they have in the last ten years, the Republican party has surrendered the middle ground. The DNC figured they could move to the right, and capture the territory vacated by the Republicans. Knowing that this would cost the support of the progressive wing of the party, they were hoping to make up the difference by grabbing more of the independent voters. Given that the ENERGY of the last two campaigns was provided almost exclusively by the progressives, that was a hell of a gamble. Hoping to trade off the energy of the progressive wing of the party for more cash from the center and center-right wing of the party.

We'll see if it worked or not in 2010. I suspect it didn't and, much like the health care bill, they'll end up with the WORST of all possible worlds. No volunteer support of energy from the progressives, and no additional campaign funds from lobbyists or the center-right part of the political spectrum. They will have sacrificed the 111th Congress for nothing.

[scentopine]

101. Exactly ! This is exactly what is going on!

To complete the strategy - the democrats hate liberals because America hates liberals thanks to right wing media. The republicans have put their best shock troops out front, softening us up for corporate take over, spewing hate and inciting hate against liberals. The democrats simply follow in the slip stream, they let the right wing leadership establish the political priorities for the country. In return they conserve their resources and just stay a tiny bit to the left to look like an alternative. It is brilliant - the democrats are simply parasites, sucked along in the slipstream by the fast moving right wingers.

Laugh all you want about the tea baggers - they are softening people up to accept their skewed vision of America as reality. And democrats, unable and unwilling to oppose, just ride shotgun.

It is hard to be a liberal and know you are hated by your president and the party you worked for so many years. No more. That was a shitty investment. Just like most of us with 401k the money really was safer under the mattress. THey are all just a lying sack of shit politicians working to take your money and make it their own.

[Mimosa]

98. Wasn't Trent Lott for that? n/t

[WT Fuheck]

99. we've been betrayed

sold out, lied to, manipulated and that's just the foreplay

[Doctor_J]

100. yes - we're debating MCCAIN'S health care plan from the campaign

goddamned disgusting

[customerserviceguy]

102. Interesting article on how this thing has steadily been dumbed down

And we haven't even seen the conference version yet, I'm sure it will be even more steaming than either the House or the Senate versions.

This is starting to be about victory for President Obama in name only, much like the one he's trying to go for in Afghanistan. The Repukes call him a wuss, so he's going to show them that he can out-Bush Bush. A Rethug Senator says that HCR will be his Waterloo, so he's going to sign whatever Frankenstein monster that comes out of the bought-and-paid-for Congress to show them, too.

All the while, the reich wing is laughing its ass off, watching us circle the drain, putting into place the crap that is going to give them all the ammunition they need for the next couple of elections. Then, we'll still be stuck with the unfixed steaming pile, only they'll be running it.

[ibegurpard]

103. disturbing to see this focus on the "cadillac tax" now

designed to make swallowing the rest of the shit sandwich more palatable because we at least wrung this one "concession" out of them they had no intention of passing in the first place.