Yes, Shooting Handcuffed Children

[davidswanson]

Silly me. I thought I could comment on something that was in the news without proving that it was in the news. Maybe this will help:

UN says Afghans slain in troop raid were students
By DUSAN STOJANOVIC, Associated Press Writer, Thu Dec 31, 1:26 pm ET
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091231/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan_un

KABUL – The United Nations said Thursday that a weekend raid by foreign troops in a tense eastern Afghan province killed eight local students and warned against nighttime actions by coalition forces because they often cause civilian deaths.

The Afghan government said its investigation has established that all 10 people killed Sunday in a remote village in Kunar province were civilians. Its officials said that eight of those killed were schoolchildren aged 12-14. . . .

UN special representative in Afghanistan Kai Eide said in a statement that the preliminary UN investigation showed "strong indication" that there were insurgents in the area at the time of the attack.

But, he added, "based on our initial investigation, eight of those killed were students enrolled in local schools." . . .

Eide said the UN remained concerned about nighttime raids by coalition troops "given that they often result in lethal outcomes for civilians, the dangerous confusion that frequently arises when a family compound is invaded." . . .

A statement issued Thursday by the Afghan National Security Directorate said the government investigation showed no Afghan forces were involved and "international forces from an unknown address came to the area and without facing any armed resistance, put 10 youth in two rooms and killed them.

"They conducted this operation on their own without informing any security or local authorities of Afghanistan," the statement said.

___

Associated Press writer Rahim Faiez in Kabul contributed to this report.

I've excerpted much of the above article, but not the military denials. Go read them at the link above. Here's the Los Angeles Times:

Western troops killed civilians, Afghan investigators say
The government investigators say eight of those killed over the weekend in a remote eastern province were boys under 18. Western military officials say there is no evidence to back the claim.
By Laura King, Los Angeles Times, December 31, 2009

Reporting from Kabul, Afghanistan - Afghan government investigators asserted Wednesday that foreign troops had killed 10 civilians in a raid this week, including eight students younger than 18. Western military officials called the charge unsubstantiated and urged a joint investigation. . . .

A statement from the presidential palace said Karzai had offered condolences to the families of the dead, and endorsed the initial findings of an investigative panel that had traveled to Kunar at his behest.

The head of the Afghan delegation, Asadullah Wafa, said 10 males, all civilians, were taken from their homes in Ghazikhan village, in the Narang district, and then shot dead by foreign troops. The report cited the village schoolmaster as identifying eight of them as pupils between the ages of 12 and 17. . . .

Wafa, a close aide to Karzai, suggested that an informant had provided misleading information to Western forces, triggering the strike. Afghan villagers have sometimes tried to settle scores with rival clans or tribes by falsely reporting insurgent activity to the authorities. . . .

[email protected]
Copyright © 2010, The Los Angeles Times

The above article has been dismissed by commenters on progressive websites because it was posted by the progressive website Common Dreams. Never mind that Common Dreams has been right far more often than the Los Angeles Times. Below is a collection of sources put together (and presumably thereby tarnished) by Talking Points Memo:

Afghan Children Handcuffed, Then Killed By American Soldiers
January 1, 2010, 7:38AM
Talking Points Memo
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/r/u/rutabaga_ridgepole/2010/01/afghan-children-handcuffed-the.php

TPM starts with the Times:

From the London Times, December 31, 2009...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6971638.ece

President Karzai sent a team of investigators to Narang district, in eastern Kunar province, after reports of a massacre first surfaced on Monday.

"The delegation concluded that a unit of international forces descended from a plane Sunday night into Ghazi Khan village in Narang district of the eastern province of Kunar and took ten people from three homes, eight of them school students in grades six, nine and ten, one of them a guest, the rest from the same family, and shot them dead," a statement on President Karzai's website said.

Assadullah Wafa, who led the investigation, said that US soldiers flew to Kunar from Kabul, suggesting that they were part of a special forces unit.

Mr Wafa, a former governor of Helmand province, met President Karzai to discuss his findings yesterday. "I spoke to the local headmaster," he said. "It's impossible they were al-Qaeda. They were children, they were civilians, they were innocent. I condemn this attack."

In a telephone interview last night, the headmaster said that the victims were asleep in three rooms when the troops arrived. "Seven students were in one room," said Rahman Jan Ehsas. "A student and one guest were in another room, a guest room, and a farmer was asleep with his wife in a third building.

"First the foreign troops entered the guest room and shot two of them. Then they entered another room and handcuffed the seven students. Then they killed them."

Directly from Karzai's website...
http://president.gov.af/Contents/91/Documents/1124/phone_talks_kunar_eng.html

President Karzai in a telephone contact expressed condolences and shared grief with the families of the victims of the recent attack in Kunar province.

Following the attack, President Karzai tasked a delegation on Monday led by the Chief of Complaints Commission and composed of representatives from the ministries of Defense, Interior, National Directorate of Security and the Office of Administrative Affairs for an immediate investigation of the incident.

The findings by the delegation concluded that a unit of international forces descended from a plane Sunday night into Ghazi Khan Village in Narang district of the eastern province of Kunar and took 10 people from three homes, eight of them school students in grades six, nine and 10, one of them a guest, the rest from the same family, and shot them dead.

Eight of those shot dead were confirmed as school students by the village school principle.

From the New York Times...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/world/asia/29afghan.html

The governor of Kunar, Fazullah Wahidi, said that "the coalition claimed they were enemy fighters," but that elders in the district and a delegation sent to the remote area had found that "10 people were killed and all of them were civilians."

From the United Nations...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34644227/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

The United Nations said Thursday that a weekend raid by foreign troops in a tense eastern Afghan province killed eight local students and that it warned against nighttime actions by coalition forces because they often cause civilian deaths.

That last quote is simply from the same AP story I quoted above, but posted on the MSNBC website. The UN special representative, you'll recall, is named and quoted above.

Anything here can be disputed, and it is wise for everything to be questioned. But the basic points of my original commentary do not depend on the details of this incident. And the reports above would constitute overwhelming grounds for concern by progressive websites did the president of the United States belong to a different political party.

[G_j]

1. K&R

thank you

[EFerrari]

2. Thanks, David.

[Bjorn Against]

3. K&R, thanks for informing us about this important story.

[Mari333]

4. this is like Vietnam

so much it scares me. the same thing. the troops are going insane, the stop loss is making them crazy, they are shooting kids for gods sake.

ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!

ENOUGH!!!!

WHEN WILL THIS GODDAMNED COUNTRY EVER LEARN

WE ARE THE MONSTERS.

[Cetacea]

9. sadly +1

[Pavulon]

59. No donny we are the walrus..

Vietnam was a proxy war between superpowers, Just like how the action we supported in Afghanistan against the USSR was a proxy war. There is no proxy war here.

The war is actually more complex than Iraq, harder to determine what makes a "win".

There is lots of valuable information written on this conflict, sadly none by this OP. This is all horse shit and lies twisted up to make a point. Counts on the reader not looking at the information and categorizing it like a real journalist would.

Sadly when people bend the message they hide the real problems with this conflict.

[bertman]

60. You are so right, Mari333. One report says that the troops made their raid without informing

any of the local security or forces of Afghanistan. That is PRECISELY the pattern we used in Vietnam. We figured out that we could not trust the locals because they would tip off their neighbors or the VC/NVA. So we couldn't do operations FOR the people we were supposedly fighting for because they didn't like us killing their friends and family and would try to sabotage our missions. Now, that's what you call WINNING THE HEARTS AND MINDS.

And bringing American democracy to the people.

This makes my heart hurt.

[Pavulon]

62. All this OP did was cloud the topic with bullshit. Do you think we are there

for hearts and minds? Are we there to set up the model un government? Everyone always fights and thinks the current war like the last war. That is a major error.

The mission is worth a thread to discuss. A hollow accusation that the US zip tied and killed little kids is not. Not without some evidence to back it up, none of which is present here or in the last thread that was locked.

[pundaint]

94. If the government that we are propping up says so, true or not we need to get the fark out!

We're either monsters, or making a government that is our enemy stronger. Where is the upside for the American voter?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

100. It's not necessarily that the Afghan government is our enemy, if they're falsely accusing us

(I'm reserving judgment until the facts are in). They're in a tough situation themselves and have found it politically necessarily to regularly lash out at the U.S. in order to give themselves the appearance of strong independence.

[pundaint]

329. And what will American lives and treasure do to change that situation?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

192. I wonder what your response would have been

if this had happened in 2007.

[TBF]

287. If you are so determined to paint us a picture, why

not do your own thread about the merits of the "mission". That might be more productive than replying "this is bullshit" to every thread in this one. I can't promise I'll agree with it, but I'll read it.

[Pavulon]

293. OP claimed cuffed and shot, a war crime against kids.

doesn't have shit to do with the politics of the war. That is illegal and murdering handcuffed children is a claim that may need to be sourced before thrown at the US military.

[unc70]

319. Certainly sourced well enough to deserve investigation, not blanket denials

Yes, it is war crimes, and those claims certainly appear to have enough "sources" to be valid for discussions. There are lots of things happening that qualify as war crimes.

I think you are wrong about this in terms of the politics of the war. This is a classic symptom directly tied to the politics of this war and all-to-similar to the patterns in several other misquided US blunders, Vietnam right at the top.

The politics of this war are exactly what is wrong here.

[Pavulon]

321. One investigation concluded without mention of murders.

when the next one concludes the same the OP can then retract his statement.

The politics are not part of the allegation of mass murder of children.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

99. You wouldn't want to wait for this to be thoroughly investigated before jumping to conclusions?

[Jumping John]

166. I am still waiting for the thorough investigation of the Pat Tillman murder bwahahaha

[G Gordon Libby]

337. It IS a lot like Vietnam.

"Afghan officials", "South Vietnamese officials"-similar credibility,similar corruption, similar levels of penetration by terrorists. That's not to say everything from them is lies or obfuscation, though.

[uppityperson]

5. Thank you for all the links.

[kohodog]

6. Too important an item to deep six

Simply because people extrapolate their own opinions without checking.

What (or perhaps who) has America unleashed on the world? No wonder they hate us and (our freedoms?).

Were contractors involved?

[patrice]

7. Thank you, David, hang in there !!

:hi:

[annm4peace]

8. Copy and paste and send to your Congress members

then call and ask do they support the execution of children in the war on terror

[Coleen Rowley]

16. Yes, send it all the U.S. Congresspersons ASAP!

I already did. I sent the Times On Line article to staffers for Keith Ellison and James Oberstar, before I even knew how well sourced the news was but we need to send it to all the Congresspersons.

This is another Phoenix Operation, another Haditha, another My Lai type operation. There will be attempts to sweep it all under the rug quickly. If Blackwater cannot be held accountable, then the all-volunteer special forces will not be held accountable either for such massacres. Will the young US troops involved in this execution end up with PTSD and suicidal impulses? Just consider being involved in shooting a 12 year old sixth grader and how the young US troop(s) who did so will be able to live with himself.

[asdjrocky]

35. Done and done.

For what it is worth with my blue dog. It's wonderful that you're here at DU by the way.

Keep fighting the good fight.

[C_Lawyer09]

57. Where did you read that it was US troops?

Are you assuming?

[Redwoodhippie]

78. Aghan Investigator Wafa said it was US troops

After reading several accounts I clearly hearing it was US troops. One account indicating this is:

From the London Times, December 31, 2009...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan...

Assadullah Wafa, who led the investigation, said that US soldiers flew to Kunar from Kabul, suggesting that they were part of a special forces unit.

Mr Wafa, a former governor of Helmand province, met President Karzai to discuss his findings yesterday. "I spoke to the local headmaster," he said. "It's impossible they were al-Qaeda. They were children, they were civilians, they were innocent. I condemn this attack."

[Pavulon]

79. 4 versions now. UN, NATO, Karzi people, and school teacher version (tele interview times).

claiming execution. I almost feel like I am supposed to be confused here.

[maryf]

121. If you read with a heart...

Of course obfuscation is the media's game, often, but you asked for direct local names, you asked for reports from reliable sources, you helped get this man's original, heart felt OP locked, you got all this, you should be hiding your face, but you don't stop...at the risk of being deleted here, do you think you can STFU on this, you are wrong. Another DU'er asked for white hot mother fucking rage, well I got it, you should, children are being killed, and yes from all indications, whether you want to believe it or not, executed...

[Pavulon]

127. Nope. Emotions in News are bad, especially when fact is lacking

I did not lock any persons thread. I did point out their little rant was and still is poorly sourced. The UN is not the media. The UN did not corroborate what the OP posted as gospel fact. They actually are in conflict with other sources.

This is not a church, I dont have to put faith in a poster or read between the lines to find truth. If you want to handle his content like a we are in the chapel raise your hands and fall over when the preacher touches your forehead go for it.

But hey emotion and faith are similar, just because you really want to believe something, does not make it real.

The UN found no execution took place by US troops. If some other investigation finds there was a crime committed people should be charged.

If it were up to me your post should stay, it underscores the mentality of many people. Emotion vs rational analysis.

[maryf]

142. Heart does not always mean emotion

It indicates truth and it is where compassion can be found. I am in a rage, but white hot is cold as ice with me and rational. Children being shot in the middle of the night is not right, regardless whether "executed" or not. You know the MIC with their hold of the media will not allow the truth to be told, if they can stop it. You requested some verification, now you place everything on the UN investigation. Scott Ritter was a weapons inspector, found nothing, and his investigation for the UN was all for nothing...the UN is full of puppets, you should know that...

[Pavulon]

146. Other poster put up pictures

that MAY be from the site. None of these bodies are children and none show injury that would be done by a 556 round in the head at close range. The link is shows dead bodies.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[maryf]

175. Those are high school students, for the most part...

As a high school teacher, I would still call them children, and despite the hirsute facial hair, common to that neck of the world, their youth is still quite apparent. As soon as my students can sport facial hair, many do...many, many at 14 have to shave, my husband and brother in law both had full beards at 12...these are kids...as are many of our soldiers at 18. Would you really classify anyone an adult who was still in high school?

[Pavulon]

178. Like I said, the pictures speak for themselves

no kids no zip ties no rifle hits in the head. If those guys had weapons prior to being shot that would be relevant. If they were killed by crossfire it is worth finding out.

But there is nothing there to suggest they were zip tied and executed. The guy who bled out all over his hands is pretty telling. How, exactly, do you cough up lung blood on your hands if they are zipped behind your back?

That is an interesting question no?

[maryf]

194. They are kids. nt.

[TicketyBoo]

206. I agree that something doesn't look right.

None of those pictured was 12 years old, certainly.

It's my understanding that an early beard on youths results from the kind of nutrition available in more developed countries than Afghanistan.

Also, if they were "executed," wouldn't one expect to see head shots? I would, but maybe I've been watching too many bloody movies?

All in all, this doesn't look like what the report says happened.

I wish we'd just get our guys out of there so they can't be accused of this kind of crap.

[arikara]

238. I had the same argument, possibly with the same ignored

when American soldiers roughed up and arrested a 14 yr old Iraqi boy for doing a typical boy thing of throwing a rock at their hummer.

[Bjorn Against]

80. Thanks...

Here is a more direct link to the article you reference: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6971638.ece

[jbnow]

86. Even worse it wouldn't matter if they were al-Qaeda. It is a war crime,

it is murder if they round up people and execute them

If they were students it is only more horrible and heartbreaking
but the crime would be the same

I know it must be so hard there, not sure who is friend or foe so all seem foe. I know they are weary.
But if this is true they have to be charged and held responsible. None of them could think killing unarmed people who are not fighting was a legal or right thing to do.

[Pavulon]

No matter who it was it would be murder and IF it happened

, since it seems some who have an agenda skipped the fact finding part, people should be charged with murder. It is a serious claim and the OP is happy to lead everyone to believe it is all settled as truth.

[Robb]

163. Wafa has made a good career

...out of condemning attacks on civilians.

[gratuitous]

10. Well now, who are you going to believe?

The United States military and some anonymous online jock-sniffers, or the dead bodies? And why do you hate the troops? Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Answer yes or no.

[StarfarerBill]

11. K&R. Thanks, David.

[uppityperson]

12. Oh F me, will someone please rec to overcome my accidental unrec

this is the second time today I did this and I apologize. I am being sydlexic today, sorry

[emilyg]

13. I did.

[uppityperson]

14. Thanks, as soon as I clicked I tried to close but too late. I think I'll not try more today

not sure what is up beyond being very very tired but am typing inside out and clicking wrong today. Thank you

[Atticus]

15. There are a lot of quotes from a lot of different sources, but it is next to impossible for us to

know exactly what happened in this instance. I feel the same about events reported by the government when those events reflect favorably on them. The accusation of handcuffed children being shot by US soldiers seems at least as well-sourced as most stories coming out of that region.

So, if this is true, who is to blame?

The shooters?

Their superiors?

How about the "leaders" who sent our troops into an elective, unnecessary, illegal and immoral war?

How about all of US who allowed it to happen without throwing an absolute shit fit about the most outrageous and inept deployment of our Armed Forces in US history? We damn well knew it was wrong, but we continued with our lives as best we could and simply hoped that things would work out OK. We knew Bush was an amoral idiot and that Cheney et al were pulling his strings for profits that ran into the billions.

Did we march on DC?

A few of us did, but not many.

Did we e-mail our Congressmen and Senators? The White House? The news media?

Many of us did, but apparently either we were too few or not well-heeled enough to matter.

We may as well accept our responsibility for the crimes in the Middle East. The world already blames us.

[debbierlus]

17. The American people don't view it as our war, they view it as the government's war

The majority of Americans are so divorced from the reality of our military and war policies, they can't comprehend their acquiesence and complacency have anything to do with the matter.

[aquart]

82. Then re-institute the draft.

We pay more attention when we're the ones dying.

[Coleen Rowley]

18. Complicity

It's OK to recognize that many do share in the blame for wrongdoing but then, once aware, do everything in your power to stop it. It's not OK to say that since everyone is to blame and does it, therefore it's OK. This is precisely how unethical, illegal actions occur, when people look around and see others cheating or doing wrong and then say it most be OK because everyone's doing it. The sheople-attempt-to-fit-in is what's behind the "good German banality of evil".

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Welcome to DU, Coleen!

I am honored you are here. :patriot:

[sabrina 1]

42. It's heartbreaking that this is still going on. You're right,

it is our obligation to try to stop it. I guess we thought we had once we got rid of Bush. But sadly, that is not the case.

Afghanistan, a country where there is hardly a single citizen who has not been wounded by war, as the super powers use it as a chessboard for their war games. I really hoped that our presence there would change to trying to help those people heal and rebuild. Wasn't it Obama, or maybe I imagined it, who said you can't win hearts and minds, or force democracy on people with the point of a gun. Or maybe I just wanted to hear him say that.

Welcome to DU, Colleen ~ I'm not sure what we can do to stop it since Congress doesn't seem to care what the people want or think.

[davidswanson]

48. well said

hi coleen

[Goldstein1984]

89. Nicely said. Thank you.

What kind of war memorial should we have for the war?

I have a suggestion: We do an excavation with a line of marble panels, each containing a sequence of names of American soldiers that died in a meaningless war. We're making the same mistake, so we might as well recycle the memorial idea too.

[Loudmxr]

330. Welcome to DU- Nice post

When I first started posting I didn't understand how much this welcome meant. Now I track down every person new and welcome them.

[EFerrari]

23. Imho, sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is to

know what you know and to hang onto it. That goes for what you don't know as well. That's not easy to do between the disinfo and the denial that kicks in when the stories are so horrific.

[jbnow]

87. Would this be any less horrible in a "good war"?

Those to blame are those who did it and ordered it and/or allowed it.
That is who is to blame for this.
None of them have reason to think it actually is justified/legal to shoot handcuffed children or even handcuffed terrorists even if they are told they can or must.

We can spread the "blame" wider for our presence there but the war crimes are on those who commit/order/allow them

[Solly Mack]

19. K&R

[laughingliberal]

20. Horrible. nt

[burrowowl]

21. If true

SHAME ON THE U$ and STOP IT! U$ OF A and when will we ever learn?!

[patrice]

22. Even if we didn't do it, we ARE part of the situation that made it more probable.

[New Dawn]

24. Kick for truth.

[tnlefty]

25. I just received an error message - you've already recommended

this thread, which I haven't, as I haven't been on DU that much lately. Strange, this isn't the first time that this has happened.

No threadjack intended, and that thanks for the info., even if it makes me want to :puke:

[thesquanderer]

242. possible double-click

re: "I just received an error message - you've already recommended this thread, which I haven't...Strange, this isn't the first time that this has happened."

I've seen it too, and I was using a button that tended to double-click when I intended to single-click. I wonder if an inadvertent quick double-click is seen as two clicks, the first one recommending, and the second one generating the error that you've already recommended?

[Warren Stupidity]

26. I note that so far none of your assailants have shown up here to explain

why all of these reports are bullshit.

You seem to have struck a raw nerve with your original essay.

[gratuitous]

27. Isn't that curious?

Probably all snug in their beds, visions of sugarplums and so forth.

[EFerrari]

To be fair, this story is so horrible, it could induce trauma in some people.

It really is that bad.

It took me a while to confront reading the original post, that's for sure.

[Pavulon]

49. Yep claiming war crimes and getting all tawana brawley with the facts

tends to get a post pulled. So the UN has not mentioned a war crime at all, handcuffed kid shot by the us may have been a bit of a reach. Guess the facts did not support that, mulligans are easier than a retraction. Good thing this is the internet and not the real press.

The post was called for shitty sourcing, the part that said "locking" would be a hint.

Still no investigation sourcing executions.

[Warren Stupidity]

161. The fact that the mods locked that thread is shameful.

And the fact that you are still in full-tilt denial is ridiculous.

[Pavulon]

168. The camera is an awesome tool for truth. The pictures dont show kids (linked, not imbed)

they dont show executed people (every execution I heard about in bosnia was back of the head), no zip ties. I was about that age when I was shipped to bosnia, with a rifle, I was a student too. My beard would not grow that well though at 18.

No rifle rounds to the head. Just guys who are old enough to carry a rifle and either were fighting or could be confused for people who were. In that case it would be a tragedy but not an execution and not a war crime.

This poster had his rant thread locked and has still noting backing an execution. You think these pictures help that position?
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[IndianaGreen]

193. We have always had a war wing in DU

A handful of them are Republican, many more are DLCers, and the remaining bigger chunk of them are downright chauvinist and American Exceptionalists.

They may decry the MSM, but they quickly quote the likes of NY Times and Politico to counter reports of American war crimes in the foreign press.

[earcandle]

28. Davis Thank you for real investigative reporting. What do we do about this? Is Obama even

addressing the issue?  

How horrible we have become.

What can stop this monster called America? 

[IndianaGreen]

196. What we got here are war crimes

And the Commander in Chief is responsible for what happens under his command. He can either stop the war of genocide in AfPak, or he can be as guilty as Bush.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Thank you David

The denial is so thick. It's repulsive.

[L0oniX]

31. To all the deniers and apologists ...how would you feel if it were your children?

...also ...How would you feel if your son or daughter was one of those that killed some of those children? ...any problem with that? Still approve of them joining the military?

[Cassandra2010]

39. Will they

who lambasted David have the courage to apologize? Not even that I guarantee. How many slammed him with that original article and now will not even acknowledge their ignorance.

And who are these people?

[L0oniX]

41. My bet is that they either are X military or they have family or friends in the military.

[EFerrari]

47. Or this story is just to horrible to take in very easily.

That happens.

[SammyWinstonJack]

51. +1 nt

[Pavulon]

53. I would approve of a post being locked again, for shit sourcing

no investigation has concluded any execution took place. Like me calling up your job and swearing you are a child molester, because I say so. I mean my word is all there is. Fuck due process.

It sounds terrifying and oh so scary, but hey it is just a phone call away.

The OP was either to lazy or stupid to break out UN findings from local commentary not supported by any investigation. But hey, lets all behave like we are in church and take it all as a matter of faith.

[L0oniX]

275. You've convinced me. Our military didn't and never kills innocent people.

You seem to spend a lot of time attacking what you think are weak news sources but I don't hear any remorse for the innocent dead in these wars coming from you. So far the only thing good I see about you is that you are a fellow linux user ...I eventually switched from linux to bsd. Tell me this ...are you pro peace ...anti war?

[Pavulon]

278. Pro peace. War is regretfully the only option at points

like when serbs pushed europe towards a large scale war by killing bosnians. Rwanda could have used a little help to prevent that massacre.

This is not about feelings, it is about claiming the Army restrained and executed children. The same Army that participated in IFOR/KFOR.

That claim needs to be backed by more than a guy on the phone before made fact.

[pleah]

32. K&R

[seeinfweggos]

33. i would like to see a un investigation and i wonder what units these were

the stories say:

"international forces from an unknown address"

"a unit of international forces"

the us marines? blackwater? the brits?

[Pavulon]

54. The UN found no execution took place, more investigation would be great

to determine exactly how these people were killed.

[bahrbearian]

34. good work,,, IBTL

[asdjrocky]

36. The truth is the truth man.

Some people still believe in telling it. K&R!

[bvar22]

37. Boy, a lot of people...

...in that other thread sure have stupid on their face.

[Pavulon]

55. The one locked for shit sourcing and rule violations..

the one where the OP could not separate local commentary from a UN finding. Maybe that was just an accident on his part. Lets all look at this like a church service, we can just take all that is said on faith. I mean why would anyone not tell the whole truth?

[stray cat]

38. Like blowing up school children with a roadside bomb or suicide vest

or is that ok?

[Bjorn Against]

40. No one said that was OK...

There are a lot of horrible things in the world and no one here will tell you that they support suicide bombers killing children, for you to even imply that people here are OK with such a thing is absurd.

Unlike suicide bombings however these killings were funded with American tax dollars, which gives us a special responsibility to speak out and demand accountability. We are supposed to have higher standards than the suicide bombers that blow up school children, and I find it disgusting that you point to them to try and excuse this.

[seeinfweggos]

44. funded with American tax dollars

maybe, but if so, in what form? nobody has said american units were involved yet. i smell blackwater

[EFerrari]

46. Black Water was outed last week as a CIA asset.

And this story clearly isn't about Black Water contractors, regardless.

[seeinfweggos]

52. i wouldn't be surprised if they are contractors

if you wanted to send a team of assassins to kill all the males in the village, who you gonna call? think about it.

[Pavulon]

56. I would send Rambo, and cartoon guy, guess a mulligan is easier than a retraction

this is peanut in a turd of a locked thread where the OP sourced an item that blended UN findings and "local" coverage into one statement. It took a bit of reading to see what they did but it was quite clear in the end. Bending the message by selecting poorly written shit to back their position.

Neither the UN or any press organization is reporting a war crime, like the OP seems to be doing.

[seeinfweggos]

63. hmm

it is rather confusing.

[Pavulon]

64. That is the OP's purpose. They could be clear and say

one guy claims there was an execution and the UN investigation did not find one. But they chose not to do that.

They could focus on the fact that kids are dead as a result of war, they did not do that. They are swinging for the parking lot by backing as FACT in a second post that the US forces killed little kids in custody.

That is a shitty thing to do, but hey guess he has his reasons.

[seeinfweggos]

65. this is from the ap story

A statement issued Thursday by the Afghan National Security Directorate said the government investigation showed no Afghan forces were involved and "international forces from an unknown address came to the area and without facing any armed resistance, put 10 youth in two rooms and killed them.

"They conducted this operation on their own without informing any security or local authorities of Afghanistan," the statement said.

[Pavulon]

68. Conflicts with the UN finding and of course NATO reports

but hey lets all just put handcuffs on them and make that the story. I mean it just takes a little faith brother, can ya hear me. Little faith and a donation will get you your salvation. And in this story, the promised land of faith based journalism.

The truth is a always harder. Good sources take work, and 6th grade reading skills, missing in the locked OP thread. Glossed over in this one.

[seeinfweggos]

72. well, nato is an biased investigator. i'm not saying they should be assumed to be lying but

an outside investigation would be good. how much of a real un investigation has been done?

[Pavulon]

74. Here is the UN info

obviously the UN and NATO are not the same. More investigation would be great. Before I went and said we executed school kids I would prefer some real data.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33379&Cr=afghan&Cr1=

[seeinfweggos]

75. yeah, you have a point

you would expect the un to mention a war crime if there was evidence of it. they say civilians were killed but seem to blame it on night time raids.

[Pavulon]

77. The OP ignores the real issue and clouds it with his ego driven horseshit.

The issue being that every war, even if conducted under international law, will kill innocent people. Furthermore, it this something we are willing to accept for the outcome we are seeing here.

Wild unfounded accusations cloud the logic people should be able to look at. Is there some impact for US interest worth American lives and worth non combatant lives.

What do we expect from this conflict and how much death is it worth to get it. That logic should be the foundation for the Executive and Legislative branches to present information to us, the people. That is lost on the OP's web of intertwined crap.

[Ohiodemoc]

126. Unlike you, I regret the death of these children

And I don't justify them by stating there's a war going on.

[Pavulon]

131. Unlike you I can regret an event and still look at in a rational light

when nations wage war innocent people will die as a result. Executions are illegal, even in war. So the post claims an execution took place. The UN says no.

You miss the point that by ordering and funding the war we guarantee this will continue to happen.

This is a part of war.

[Ohiodemoc]

143. That's false. the UN "continues to investigate this incident to help bring clarity to the situation"

Let's stick to the facts please. By saying "the UN says no," you invent things.

[Pavulon]

147. Pictures. Other poster found them. Show no little kids and no rifle hits

to the head. ie no execution. I was a student when I was sent to bosnia with a rifle. My beard would not grow that well whenI was 18 though.

Bodies, no rifle hits in the head. not breakfast table content.

The blood out of the mouth happens when you get hit in the lungs with a round or piece of a frag.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[Ohiodemoc]

153. You said "The UN says no." Care to explain why you made the false statement?

You your arguments boils down to an opinion on non-UN photos, rather than your assertion that "the UN says no."

You should have said, "Pavulon says no".

[Pavulon]

156. Having seen the real thing done in bosnia

I can tell you no one in those pictures was shot in the head with a 5.56 NATO round or a 7.62 AK (enemy) round. Do those look like little kids to you?

The UN MAKES NO MENTION of an execution. NONE. Only says enemy was in area and we should not run night ops.

[Ohiodemoc]

159. Thanks for correcting the false statement

Now you accurately say that the UN "makes no mention" of an execution (which is understandable since the investigation is still ongoing). This corrects your original statement that the UN "said no."

The UN hasn't said yes or no. Let's see what they conclude.

[Pavulon]

165. Lets do take a look at the pictures, initial investigation is DONE.

UN mentioned an initial investigation, which is done. They did not mention a war crime, I think they would if there was even a possibility. I unlike the OP will be happy to correct a statement when it is posted in an unclear manner.
Those pictures do not show kids, handcuffs, or head injuries consistent with a 556 round at point blank. On another note, all the executions I ever heard of in bosnia were carried out by shooting a victim in the back of the head. Not saying they all were, just the many I heard discussed.

None of those pictures show anything like a rifle or even a pistol hit in the head. One is questionable since it is obscured by the locals.

[Ohiodemoc]

170. But do you agree that you falsely stated that the "UN says no"?

1) Investigations continue.
2) Omission in the initial investigation of whether executions occurred or not do not amount to a denial. You said the UN "said no," but in fact the UN did not say yes or no. It's possible that the matter of executions are part of the ongoing investigation.

[Pavulon]

176. Initial investigation done, results are on the internet

second I have three fucking times said my post was an error. The UN did not even HINT at execution. Not a whiff. So when I post an entire thread based on shaky fact, then repost it after a lock feel free to bust my balls some more.

One more time, I posted the UN says no in error, the UN said NOthing. Oops. Going back to change the post would fuck up the conversation.

Do you agree the photos from the event show neither children or people executed by being shot in the head?

[rgbecker]

187. UN doesn't say "No". Read your own links.

http://unama.unmissions.org/Default.aspx?tabid=1741&ctl=Details&mid=1882&ItemID=7092

[maryf]

300. Wow the UN article does say students were killed in your link:

"As the United Nations investigates a joint raid by Afghan and international forces in which 10 people – mostly students – were killed, the world body’s top envoy to Afghanistan today appealed to all groups, both government and insurgent, to step up efforts to distinguish between civilians and combatants" the bold is mine...

[Pavulon]

303. Yep, no mention of cuffs and execution, a flagrant crime. Guess they forgot that part.

accidental killing was not claimed by the OP. I do not contest that possibility, it is actually quite probable.

I contest the OP claiming the US military (Army) cuffed then killed children. Dont see shit in that report on that do you?

[maryf]

304. Avoiding the point once again, you've said that their were no kids, students

of a high school are kids.

[Pavulon]

306. No cuffs, no kids, no signs of execution.

OP owns his words and should be responsible for his statement. You can slog you happy ass though boot at 17. I was a student on active duty and through college. The op painted the picture of tiny time and little orphan annie flex cuffed and murdered by the Army.
"The occupied government of Afghanistan and the United Nations have both concluded that U.S.-led troops recently dragged eight sleeping children out of their beds, handcuffed some of them, and shot them all dead"

[Duende azul]

122. You are wrong. There are still no UN Findings out,

except that the victims where students.
"Many details of the incident remain unclear. Based on our initial investigation, eight of those killed were students enrolled in local schools."
The don`t say anything to exclude execution. They just don`t mention the topic.

And there is that nebulous statement about "evidence to strongly indicate that there were insurgents in the area at the time"

Add to this the appeal to not do nighttime raids and you get the picture. They are trying to not upset anyone. And if you think the UN is there, being neutral, you are just delusional.

http://unama.unmissions.org/Default.aspx?tabid=1741&ctl=Details&mid=1882&ItemID=7092

Know what? I wouldn`t care about you misrepresenting what the UN issued if it weren't for your bragging about reading skills.

[Pavulon]

132. They dont even HINT at a war crime (execution)

So the UN is not a source? This is the link i posted. I dont see the word initial in this one. Neither link mentions an execution.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33379&Cr=afghan&Cr1=

[P. Dexter]

213. The UN fired a diplomat for speaking out against Karzai's fraud

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/01/world/asia/01nations.html

Let's not pretend they are impeccable source. At any rate, even on top of that, the UN does not mention execution and the Yahoo news article states "some details remain unclear," contradicting your statement that the UN "said no" to the allegation that executions occured.

So details remain unclear to the UN, but you claim they are clear to you. Go figure.

[Pavulon]

219. how do you cough up lung blood on your hands if they are zipped behind your back?

pretty valid question. This is the 5th time i corrected that post. Winder if the op will correct his.

see any little kids, see any cuffs, see any one executed?

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[rusty fender]

233. People can be executed in the back or the chest;

the lack of headshots doesn't exclude execution. You can defend this action till the cows come home, but it is an atrocity nonetheless. The imprimatur of the UN that it is not a war crime would not lessen its depravity.

[Pavulon]

237. Yep, cuffed people bleed all over their hands. Lung blood from mouth on hands, note

The OP posted the US military executed children while cuffed. They have nothing to back that with except one person's phone statement. There are two categories here, war crime and not war crime. The rest is operational error and legal.

That does NOT make it right or acceptable if people were killed by mistake.

[Name removed]

265. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

271. Seen lots of pictures of executed people

when you get shot in the chest in you lungs you cough up frothy blood onto your clothes. If your hand is behind your back you cant do that. Once a body is dead it will spill blood but not splatter it. I saw more skeletonized bodies, but a rifle hit is a remarkable injury.

The person was shot and bled on their hands and shirt before they died. Cant do that in flex cuffs.

The guy in white may have been shot in the head, not in that spot as there would be skull and brain matter from a rifle hit at point blank.(obscured could be a hit, cant tell 100%) the guy in blue was not shot in the head. He bled out his nose before he died. Or blood in his lungs or gut leaked out his nose and mouth after death.

Not a hit from a rifle. Again lots of questions that should be answered before fact is concluded. You know like saying the military executed these "children" in cuffs.

[bertman]

69. Does it have to be technically a "war crime" or "execution" to register on your horror meter,

Pavulon?

Maybe it wasn't an execution. Maybe some trooper just tripped and hosed all of those kids by accident. Does that make it any less horrific? or justifiable?

I don't care if it was or was not a war crime by your standards. This whole Imperial shock strategy is a war crime in itself.

It will be interesting to hear how this went down considering that they made an uncoordinated night raid, killed two, then rounded up the rest and killed them. Definitely nothing out of the ordinary here.

[Pavulon]

73. I would take a look at the UN findings

forces took fire, forces returned fire. Taliban was in the AO. Civilians died. That happened in ww1, ww2, korea, Ifor/Kfor, gw1 and pretty much every war waged since the dawn of time.

The war is not illegal, even if the OP really believes it is, killing the wrong people is not illegal, it is part of war. POTUS orders it Congress funds it. Buck sits there.

Killing civilians in custody or knowingly killing them is a war crime. That is where reality works. So if the UN says there was no war crime, that means something. If another investigation shows there was, then people should stand trial for murder.

The OP's mulligan rather than retraction just complicates the truth of the matter. There are two sources that are not the US saying very different things.

But hey, sounds like it fits his agenda to say the US executed little kids, with no evidence to back that.

[Coleen Rowley]

88. Were the killings at Haditha a war crime?

Or was that just civilian collateral damage too? If I'm not mistaken, no one was held accountable for the killings of the 24 men, women and children in that case either. I think your same argument about civilians getting killed in wars was also made to exonerate Lt. Calley and others who committed the My Lai massacre.

Just curious, do you have any military experience yourself in war situations? Many times, these cases take months and years. Remember it took Pat Tillman's family over a year just to find out he was killed by friendly fire.

[Pavulon]

111. Yeppers. involved were charged

killing innocent civilians is illegal. Worth backing up with fact.

[Coleen Rowley]

331. Charged but not convicted of Haditha killings

I think all of the military soldiers involved in killing the 24 people at Haditha have gotten off except for one Sergeant's case is still unresolved. War crimes are difficult to try in the courts of the same country as the soldiers charged with the war crimes. Whereas other countries or independent, international courts are less biased and have a better chance of getting justice. If you look at Japanese or German war criminals after WWII, the bias probably ran in the opposite direction as they were tried in the courts of the victors.

[JoeyT]

93. I'm pretty sure torturing prisoners is a war crime too.

But it isn't like the government didn't fight that tooth and nail for as long as humanly possible.
I seem to remember people screaming "How dare you insult the troops by claiming they committed war crimes!" before the full scope of the torture that was going on came out, too.

I'm also a bit skeptical of the sources and information in the OP, but I have no faith whatsoever that any number of investigations would ever get to the bottom of it. If it happened that way, it would take a leak to bring it to light at this point.

[Pavulon]

119. This is not a leak. It is published information. Here the UN says NO CRIME

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33379&Cr=afghan&Cr1=

The other sources mix local commentary in with that to make it sound like the UN found there was not an execution. Saying the US executed little kids in custody is pretty inflammatory.

Thats cool, one guy in the times (uk trash paper not ny times) article says it happened, UN says no.

[Duende azul]

135. Hell, you are outright misrepresenting what the UN said. They do NOT say there is no crime

What about "still unclear" is unclear to you?

Unless you found another UN source you are withholding from us.
Then come up with it or shut up.

[Pavulon]

137. I should shut up because you dont like what I say..aww

to bad the real world does not work that way. NO mention of war crime (execution), not a single word. Find that UN resolution saying the Afghan war is illegal yet?

Read the link.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33379&Cr=afghan&Cr1=

[Duende azul]

158. No, no. I just want you to be factually correct. And you are making progress.

Now you seem to get the difference between "NO mention of war crime" and "the UN says NO CRIME".
At least I hope you get the difference.

But despite all the progress you are making, there is still something factually wrong.
Nowhere did I say you should shut up because I didn't like what you said. I just wanted a source for your claim that the UN excluded a warcrime. Because your link doesn't provide that.
Maybe someday there will be a statement of that sort, but at the moment there is nothing.
You tried to lecture other posters on good sourcing and proved to be unable to quote your source correctly.

And for the whole picture you can't exclude the eyewitness which you deliberately choose to do.

[Pavulon]

167. Now work on the OP, the ENTIRE post is based on obscured message.

my error was corrected. A misquote by me, not a blending of topics to confuse the reader. The UN did not event HINT at a war crime. Not a single breath. The investigation that the classify as initial is public and has not a word about it. You think they would say we are looking at a war crime investigation or something.

The witness was covered in this thread and the locked parent topic. ONE person's claims are mixed in with UN findings. It sure would be easy to try to pass that off as fact that little kids were executed by the evil US.

I dont have an agenda like the OP. The facts will fall where they do. Find that illegal war link yet?

[rgbecker]

195. Please read your own links! I can't find where "UN says NO CRIME."

Afghanistan: top UN envoy voices concern over mounting civilian toll

French troops assigned to the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan
31 December 2009 – As the United Nations investigates a joint raid by Afghan and international forces in which 10 people – mostly students – were killed, the world body’s top envoy to Afghanistan today appealed to all groups, both government and insurgent, to step up efforts to distinguish between civilians and combatants.
Details surrounding the 27 December incident, in which the 10 civilians were killed in northeast Afghanistan, are still unclear, but according to the UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA), there is strong evidence pointing to insurgents having been in the area at the time.

“I appeal again to all of the armed actors to make every effort to minimise harm to civilians and want to underline the importance of taking all precautionary measures to distinguish between civilians and combatants,” Kai Eide, the Secretary-General’s Special Representative, said in a statement.

“Greater efforts must be made to reverse current trends so that civilians are spared the worst effects of armed conflict in the coming year.”

Mr. Eide, who also heads UNAMA, said that the world body remains concerned about night-time raids since they are often deadly and local authorities are frustrated when operations are not coordinated with them.

For safety and cultural reasons, evening raids are distressful to families directly affected by them, as well as to communities throughout Afghanistan, he added.

“UNAMA is equally concerned about the risks posed to civilians by insurgents living or operating in residential areas,” the envoy said. “They account for the majority and an increasing proportion of civilian deaths.”



News Tracker: past stories on this issue

Insecurity and corruption hinder UN assistance in Afghanistan: UN official

[maryf]

302. I see no place where the UN said NO CRIME

I see no place where they say there is one either, but you seemed to imply they suggested no guilt anywhere, I don't see it...

[Pavulon]

323. I would thing the UN would mention a war crimes investigation

or accusations of murder by US or NATO. OP sourced them as concluding just that, that does not pan out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7377593

[zeemike]

102. I guess we should all apologize for not supporting the troops

Kids die all the time in war so it must be that the troops are always blameless.
And besides it is not viewed as bad as say Lt. Callie in Me Li...we have a new military now, one that can be all that they can be....well schooled in killing from childhood with lots of practice in virtual reality of the video games.
And with a lot of support from the public who feel obligated to thank the troops for their service and call them heros....and if anyone suggests that they are really monsters let lose on the world they must be slapped down and called traitors and and told that they hate America.

The truth is that I do hate what America has become and what our military has become...it is not how I grew up and it is not the military I served in the 60s
We have become monsters reveling in the violence done to others, and brainwashing a whole generation into just accepting this as not only normal but patriotic, and totally wiping morality from their minds.
And we will pay a heave price for this.

[Pavulon]

113. They dont need your support. The have the support of those who pay

for and order the war to continue. The military is run by civilians and their support allows the war to continue.

[zeemike]

118. Excuse me but I have payed for 50 years.

But you are right the war is run by civilans...that is why Eisenhower called it the military industrial complex.
And it is there needs that drive this war and they could care less what the tax payers like me feel about it....we are the suckers in this game.

[Pavulon]

124. The whole "I support / I dont support" thing is silly

the responsibility for us is at the ballot box. A yellow stick or sign on a stick is not a policy changer. Nor is unfounded accusation of murder.

[zeemike]

267. Well I knew my vote for Mcgovern meant something

But I did not know that it stopped the viet nam war.
I was always under the illusion that it was all those protests that changed peoples minds...that an a media that actually showed the public what was going on instead of repeating the talking points given them.
so I guess until the next election we should just sit down and STFU

[Pavulon]

269. No, put pressure where it is due.

on the congress and potus. Not the Army, not accusing people of murder.

[zeemike]

288. Even if they did the crime?

I don't think there is doubt that the kids are dead, so you say that they did not do it?
someone else did it? Who?
Or are you saying it was an accident or that they were justified in killing 8 kids?
the Army is not supposed to be immune from the law and moral responsibility just because they were following orders.
That was well established at Nuremberg.

[Pavulon]

297. If Army Spec Ops

shot children in custody in cuffs I will be the FIRST to insist on a trial. That is murder. If people died in the legal conduct of war that is very different. That is part of the whole thing and while terrible is not mass murder as the OP claimed.

The pictures I posted do not show children and are not like any pictures of executions I saw conducted in Bosnia.

There is no legal order to shoot people in cuffs in custody. It is illegal and a spec ops guy with 8 years in would know the difference.

I have yet to see any shred of evidence backing a murder.

[zeemike]

326. Yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7380923

[Pavulon]

333. umm, no. Same shitty link from the times from the OP's locked rant. Nothing from the UN

concluding murders took place in their joint investigation.

[zeemike]

335. So you are saying that they were not killed?

Or that Americans did not do it?
Or that they did deserve to be killed because "Nits make lice"?
Pleas explain and give a link that explains it.

[Pavulon]

340. No, the guy who twice claimed we executed kids,

where pictures show no kids, where NATO says it was not an execution, and were a preliminary report from the UN says word zero about it, he can defend it. He owns it now.

How bout them apples, cant go making murder charges and not back them. That motherfucker owns that, I bet he is really hoping for a break on it too. White hot anger and all.

Guess what, nothing in the news today about it. Nothing on BBC, AFP, AP, or al-jizera. not a damn word.

[zeemike]

342. I guess it all depends on the meaning of murder dose it not?

Sense it is a fact that they are dead and are kids by our own standards, the question is whether it was murder or not.
If anyone, soldier or not, kills an unarmed person who is no threat to them it is murder in every language and culture....except our own?
But who can investigate it? The military? and what do you think they will find sense it was done from orders on high?
This is not like the massacre at Mi Lie in Viet Nam in that there were soldiers who refused the order to murder woman and children...we have none of that now, only soldiers pumped up and ready to go to kill anyone declared a terrorist, and the all look alike...rag heads some call them, not even human.

It is also not Mi Lie where there were journalist that could and would report the facts of the story, not just publish the official account given to them in their comfy offices in the "green zone".

So you say it is not murder unless they say it is murder.

[Pavulon]

343. Yeah the law is made clear in BCT to every inductee.

the definition of murder is very clear. This is not vietnam, stop comparing it. This is a case where a poster claimed the US Army (veteran guys, who bothered to hump in) killed children in custody. That is clearly and flagrantly a war crime to the dumbest fucker in the army. It is a flagrantly illegal order and no sane person would carry it out. Nevermind the guys who walk in at 2am, guys with years of experience. This was not a dead check on a injured guy, this was not claim of a grenade in the wrong room, or firing into a home that killed people by accident. All shitty things.

He made a claim (twice) of murder and will either stand on it or choke on it.

If the UN (who already did a preliminary investigation), who has no reason to cover up a war crime, say that a murder took place I would believe it. I would want the people responsible to be tried. Their preliminary report from the UN said NOTHING about a war crime. Not even a hint. Just "dont run night ops" and "enemy in area".

I repeat, this motherfucker owns that post, the one that is locked and the subsequent one. His white hot rage is all fine and dandy but we'll see how his gamble pays off.

He used his unfounded murder claim to get people to come to some political shit. Pretty gutless.

[zeemike]

344. I guess you missed the part where I said this is not viet nam.

In those days we still had somewhat of a moral compas....but then we drafted people into the army from civilian life to fight wars in those days.
And we still had a press that had access to the war and could go where they wanted and report on what was going on....that too has changed.

And once again....the kids are dead and we killed them....now tell me why it is not murder...do you have evidence that the soldiers (or black water mercenaries) were in any danger from these kids?
And no more saying that it must not be murder because they never mentioned the word in their report...evidence please.
The evedence for murder is the dead kids and the fact that we did it...now the burden of proof is on you to show that they had cause.

[Pavulon]

345. Pictures show men

with beards. They show intact skulls. 556 rounds or even a 9mm sidearm dont leave that. The pictures that show hands show no zip ties. They show lung blood on their hands splattered by a cough of a dying man. Tough to hack blood all over you hands and shirt if they are zipped behind your back.

When you accuse someone of MURDER in public in the united states the onus in on you to prove it and own it.

The UN press release linked multiple times in this thread does not mention war crime of execution. Lets stick to the claim that the US military (army) soldiers dragged kids from their beds cuffed and executed them. That is his claim, not blackwater, not space aliens.

He owns it. You have a pretty upside down approach to burden of proof. You accuse people of mass murder, better be willing to go to the mat for it.

These links are posted dozens of times in this post. UN does not mention one word about cuffs or executions. I dont see the morality of stirring the pot to get people all hyped up to come to your event.

This report is filed by the UN, an independent source. Not locals, not NATO.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33379&Cr=afghan&Cr1=

[zeemike]

346. Well first lack of evidence is not evidence.

And because the UN does not mention hand cuffs or murder dose not mean murder did not take place.
And you seem to be saying that it is not murder unless they shoot them in the head. Or did you mean that it is not an execution murder if they don't shoot them in the head.
I don't know but a murder would love to have you as a defense atorny...."The state cannot show that the victim was shot in the head, so that means it was not murder"

But if you are charged with murder in the states you first have to show a death occurred and next that the accused did it.
So we do know that they are dead, but who did it?
Well that is a secret and they will not tell. and so it is the military that is directly responsible for these deaths no matter if it was the CIA, Blackwater, or uniformed sodiers..
And the OP is just the messenger.

[Pavulon]

347. The OP owns that "white hot" little rant and this thread

So the full UN investigation will eventually conclude. The interim investigation mentioned no murder, no war crime. Not even a hint. No executed kids, as the OP claimed. Being dead in a war zone is not a crime, being dead by accident or by negligence is not a war crime. That is part of war and not what the op claimed. Being handcuffed and shot, little kids in their beds os OP claimed, is a war crime and murder. Pictures showed no one shot in the head, you know the way you execute a person with a gun. Only a guy who hacked up lung blood on his hands, hard to do if they are cuffed behind you.

Executions with guns generally involve being shot in the head. The OP made a nice rant and used it to pimp an agenda. Now he owns that claim and editorial content. He was not a messenger he was a promoter.

I really am looking forward to a final UN finding on this matter.

I have a lack of evidence a person is not a child rapist, bet if i post their name on a paper that say "lack of evidence x is a child rapist" their life will be complicated. This poster bent the UN findings to his agenda and claimed murder on thin ice.

Now he owns it.

[Duende azul]

110. Of course the war is illegal.

Neither your POTUS nor your Congress have a legitimate cause of ordering or funding a war in Afghanistan.

And to save you the effort: No, it is not self defense.

[Pavulon]

114. Now that is the basis of opinion. I dont knowhow you would get that to the UN

security council or some international process to actually make it more than jst an opinion. There is no finding anywhere that makes the war illegal. NATO and the UN are there on the ground.

Free speech is great.

[Duende azul]

129. So you can not come up with just one point for the legality of this war?

Just because nobody has the guts to challenge the empire on this, the US can have their way?
That doesn't make it legal.

Try again.

[Pavulon]

133. NATO seems to be there. So NATO is breaking the law too?

How about you show me one article of UN resolution that says it is illegal. Happy searching.

[Duende azul]

141. Gosh. Are you trying to be sarcastic? Because NATO is there, the war is legal?

Try again.

[Pavulon]

155. Still looking for that resolution that says war there is illegal.

UN has lots of resolutions, none that say it is illegal. Keep on searching. Post what you find.

[eomer]

123. What's your source for: "forces took fire, forces returned fire"?

I've clicked through all the links and, maybe I'm missing it, I can't find a source for that. I can only find the opposite.

[Pavulon]

130. The UN investigation, that says this did not happen.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33379&Cr=afghan&Cr1=

OP is not making that clear.

"there is strong evidence pointing to insurgents having been in the area at the time."

[eomer]

138. That says what did not happen?

I don't see anything in the UN statement saying something did not happen. Do you not have a source for that either?

Because you don't, apparently, have any source for "forces took fire, forces returned fire". Insurgents having been in the area at the time is a weaker claim, obviously, than " "forces took fire, forces returned fire".

[Pavulon]

152. See pictures, no kids, no rifle hits in the head.

no execution as described. Will still wait for a conclusive investigation to state this never happened.

Eveyrone here is old enough to aim and fire a weapon. No little kids executed.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[rgbecker]

216. UN says 8 were students in local schools. Please read your own links!

January 1, 2010, The Canadian Press: A preliminary United Nations investigation has found that eight students were among 10 Afghan civilians killed in Kunar province on Sunday. A statement Thursday by Kai Eide, special UN representative, says the deaths occurred during a raid by Afghan and international military forces in the province's Narang district. "Based on our initial investigation, eight of those killed were students enrolled in local schools," Eide said.

[Pavulon]

223. OP says US military executed them in custody and rants on.

thread locked. Less ranty thread reposted. Pictures show no children, no zip ties, no executions. I was a student in a local school when placed on active duty status and deployed.

Guess the white hot rage blinded him TWICE, when he posted.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[rgbecker]

201. Please read your own links! "says this did not happen."

Please high lite that part for me. You appear to suffer some sort of denial about this.

Afghanistan: top UN envoy voices concern over mounting civilian toll

French troops assigned to the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan
31 December 2009 – As the United Nations investigates a joint raid by Afghan and international forces in which 10 people – mostly students – were killed, the world body’s top envoy to Afghanistan today appealed to all groups, both government and insurgent, to step up efforts to distinguish between civilians and combatants.
Details surrounding the 27 December incident, in which the 10 civilians were killed in northeast Afghanistan, are still unclear, but according to the UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA), there is strong evidence pointing to insurgents having been in the area at the time.

“I appeal again to all of the armed actors to make every effort to minimise harm to civilians and want to underline the importance of taking all precautionary measures to distinguish between civilians and combatants,” Kai Eide, the Secretary-General’s Special Representative, said in a statement.

“Greater efforts must be made to reverse current trends so that civilians are spared the worst effects of armed conflict in the coming year.”

Mr. Eide, who also heads UNAMA, said that the world body remains concerned about night-time raids since they are often deadly and local authorities are frustrated when operations are not coordinated with them.

For safety and cultural reasons, evening raids are distressful to families directly affected by them, as well as to communities throughout Afghanistan, he added.

“UNAMA is equally concerned about the risks posed to civilians by insurgents living or operating in residential areas,” the envoy said. “They account for the majority and an increasing proportion of civilian deaths.”



News Tracker: past stories on this issue

Insecurity and corruption hinder UN assistance in Afghanistan: UN official

[Duende azul]

140. Pavulon made that up all by himself.

Nowhere does the UN state the occupation forces took fire.
They only hint at the possible presence of insurgents in the area. Whatever great area they may be talking about.

[Pavulon]

157. I set that as a scenario, in this thread, and its locked cousin.

the UN does not say we executed people. The pictures do not show children or people shot in the head with a rifle.

[Bjorn Against]

217. You had no evidence to suggest the troops to fire but you "set it up as a scenario"...

Funny that you didn't make any mention in your post that it was just a "scenario", instead you stated it in a way that implied it was a fact. I think David Swanson has done a great job of providing us with sources for his claims, you on the other hand just make up "scenarios" out of thin air.

[Pavulon]

220. I posted that in the locked cousin of this thread. I think these pictures

do not show executed kids. How about that? I dont know or give a rat fuck about this poster. I think his "white hot rage" got in front of his reasoning. I see NO SOURCE that states US military executed children.

I am quite comfortable putting out that scenario as it is more plausible then US military executing children in custody.

The photos kinda put that position into question.
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[Bjorn Against]

226. Do you have pictures of the entire crime scene?

Those few photos hardly prove there were no children killed, just because no pictures of the children were posted online does not mean they do not exist. I do find it interesting that the link you provide does reference children being killed when it says "They enter the civilian houses and kill ten civilians, among them eight were school boys, one a poor farmer and a 12-year-old rancher".

There have been several links to sources that say children were killed, can you provide a single link that says that children were not killed?

[Pavulon]

229. Sure wish I did and a conclusive report, however I did not post the us military executed kids

before I posted such a claim I would really want to be able to back that up. I provided pictures posted by someone else that makes the OP's post factually challenged shall we say.

My position, before you TWICE post something saying US military executed restrained kids you may want to back that up.

[Bjorn Against]

235. Well I would suggest you back your material up before you post

How many claims have you had to back off of now? Now that I pointed out that your photos do not prove that there were no executions I expect you will be backing off that one as well. For someone who lectures David Swanson because you don't think he does a good enough job of backing up his posts you sure have not done a good job of backing up yours.

[Pavulon]

239. I corrected ONE post, made in ERROR. The OP posted TWICE the US military executed kids in custody

I dont know David Swanson, or give a fuck who he is. The point is simple, if you post that you should back it. NO source backs that, pictures dont back, nothing backs the claim the US military executed children while cuffed.

See how that works, you can play games and attack me for a mispost NO - NOthing, which i continue to acknowledge.

Or you can take a look at the claim the OP made and the information out there.

[Bjorn Against]

241. I have seen more than one mispost from you...

First there was the claim that the UN said there were "no executions". Then there was the claim that the troops were under fire which you had to back off and say was only a "scenario". Then you posted the pictures of the dead bodies and implied that because none of them were kids that suggested no kids were killed. Now I am waiting for you to back off the claim that because one person may have coughed blood on to their hands that suggests there were no executions when in fact the reports clearly stated that eight of the ten people were handcuffed making it likely that the one that coughed up blood into his hands was one of the other two.

[Pavulon]

247. You can wait til your grave. I will not back off the photos.

none look like cuffed executed kids. You got that. Those arent kids and they are not cuffed. Not a single fucking one of them. I go and accuse you of a crime in public, I should be able to back that.

You post a pic of an executed kid with hands restrained then we talk. Learn to count. You can attack me all you want friend but photos are a great thing. To bad there are not more.

Now there are two categories for this event. War crime or not war crime. All else comes with any war. Meaning wrong people dead. That does not a cuffed and executed rug rat make.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[maryf]

307. As explained to you, there are many kids who look adult, especially hirsute

and dead kids, you can't handle the very sad idea that kids were killed, I understand that, but these pictures are of kids. At least admit what the UN report says, "students". Accept it.

On edit, this was meant for Pavulon, sorry!!

[Pavulon]

311. I fully accept they are dead. I am waiting for the cuffed and murdered

part to be confirmed. I accept the student part. Like I said I was a student the day I left BCT. War crime charge of cuffing and murdering children is worth following up on.

[maryf]

309. I posted a response to you in the wrong place...

The UN said students were killed, admit they are students, the principle said they were high school students, that makes them kids.

[maryf]

312. I guess its the format, I am posting to you...

and what is a rug rat?

[Pavulon]

313. We hit the limit of linked threads

a rug rat is american slang for a small child.

[maryf]

315. duh

yeah I know rug rats, brain fart I guess. And these were not toddlers...but no one said they were...it seems that's where you are stuck, and I'm sorry for what you have seen in Bosnia.

[Pavulon]

318. That is why I take it seriously. It should not be mixed with political points

if US military forces cuffed and killed kids, or adults for that matter that would be an illegal act and an illegal order in any normal sense.

I am stuck with this comment from the OP. It is a serious thing to say and should not be said lightly. People have been executed for committing that act. It should never be made lightly.

"The occupied government of Afghanistan and the United Nations have both concluded that U.S.-led troops recently dragged eight sleeping children out of their beds, handcuffed some of them, and shot them all dead"

[winyanstaz]

106. I suspect Blackwater IS Al qaeda......

just to throw that out there......

[winyanstaz]

181. I think Blackwater is Al-Qaeda....

[John Q. Citizen]

109. Well said.

[sabrina 1]

43. I have read this thread and haven't seen anyone say

such a despicable thing. Is that a serious question? Or maybe you are in the wrong thread?

[EFerrari]

45. Straw man. No one here has endorsed that.

[Warren Stupidity]

162. fail

It is moral depravity to present the 'but they do bad things to argument'.

[midnight]

174. Can you please show me a poster who is saying killing children is ok?

Regardless if it is with a roadside bomb, suicide vest. I sure hope you are the one who is misinformed.

[Truth2Tell]

50. Thank you David. K&R

This thread needs to be continually kicked to the top of GD for the next two weeks. Maybe that would say something.

[juno jones]

58. I K&R'd the first one

And I'll do it again.

There is no possible justification for any of this.

[Pavulon]

61. All boils down to UN sourced information that does NOT support your war crime, retractions are hard

even real journalists hate writing them. Taking a mulligan was easier I guess.
You wrote a topic based on the shitty times article that blended in UN and governmental findings with a phone interview with a guy who may or may not be running a madrassa. I would have admitted that error and backed off a position that states that US forces zip tied and little little kids.

But hey, posting more articles that STILL do not source killing of civilians in us custody, a war crime, may just serve what ever purpose you are pimping.

Reminds me of a ny editor for naval history I met. He was perplexed by the internet, who makes sure people dont just post shit was his question. Answer, other posters or no one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. Oh, all those sources are from the Vast Left Wing Conspiracy that is undermining our noble effort.

Killing civilians is an act of patriotism and gallantry...if done by "our" side.

[Pavulon]

70. Read them, they all say different shit.

one says mass murder by the US (times school teacher on tele), one says taliban in area, but not among the dead (UN, afgans). Mix them all together and you get some top rate bullshit that has no fact and is all drama.

[IndianaGreen]

197. Gott min uns

We are no different from the Kaiser's armies that wore the Gott min uns (God is with us) engraved on their belt buckles.

[AzDar]

67. K & R

[Greyhound]

71. Because the mass-murder is being committed by "our guy" now. n/t

[grahamhgreen]

76. Where is bin Laden?

[Redwoodhippie]

81. Thank you David for this excellent thread

David you provided more than enough reason to start this valuable thread and discussion of this horrible incident. There is a good chance that the forces were United States military. The Afghan investigator Wafa said it was US troops. Someone in the thread trying to clear the US military suggested it was more likely a contractor, however in my mind whomever it was, our country, the United States chose to make this war and for that reason no matter who did this we are complicit in the least. Thank you for all you do, David, cause you do a lot of good.

[scentopine]

83. most of our children have not been handcuffed and shot in the head or tortured

so in the interest of political expediency, I am sure we will move forward.

Here are photos of the killings. It would seem that the facts around this are easily determined.

The schools and classes and names of each of the dead have been given.

Why did they deserve to be murdered this way? Not even our worst wall street CEO crooks get this kind of justice although they more likely deserve it.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

Has Obama given a green light to overwhelming violence against civilians to terrorize the population?

The Russians tried that and failed - how is our violence against civilians better than the Russians?

Everything about these wars is sickening, the money, the dead bodies, the torture, the pestilence and especially the democratic party cheer leading.

[Greyhound]

84. "especially the democratic party cheer leading".

Ain't that the truth.

Seeing people thrashing about in an effort to excuse Obama continuing this crime against humanity is particularly sickening since we're supposed to be the good guys, at least that's what they keep telling us.
:thumbsup:

[fascisthunter]

151. and yet there is no rationalizing this

only a sick mind could think so. I hope those who are sick get the help they need, because their sickness is getting people killed.

[Pavulon]

171. If only that guy in your post was electable

he would have stopped the war as POTUS. If congress would defund the war it would stop. The people who are pointing at the "troops" as a problem, based on this OP are wrong. If people have a bitch about the war they need to take it up with the people who fund it and order its continuation.

[slay]

91. Wow - horrific pics

but i'm not one who shies away from it - WE DID IT - we should see it - those images need to be burned into peoples' brains until we end these fucking wars! the democrats will lose their liberal base over these acts of death sanctioned by Obama and the dems - how stupid! :mad:

[Pavulon]

144. Nice find. Those are not little kids. I was a student when carrying a rifle

as part of KFOR. Without posting them here a quick look does not show gunshot wounds to the head. A 556 round used to execute a person shears their head off at the nose line. "taken right after killings" unless someone removed a ziptie from a corpse, none of those either.

Sucking chest wounds produce bleeding like that.

Those pictures go a long way to contradict what is being posted.

[rgbecker]

222. OP doesn't mention shooting in Head. Do you have bad memories of Bosnia you need to talk over?

[Pavulon]

225. Handcuffed people dont cough up lung blood on their hands

execution is generally carried out with a gunshot to the head. I think if a person is claiming as FACT the us military executed kids they should back that up.

no kids, no cuffs, guys with beards, and a guy who was supposedly restrained and killed with lung blood on his hands. Wish there were more pictures. Since unlike people they do not bend truth to their position.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[IndianaGreen]

85. These are war crimes, and we are responsible for them

Bush, Obama, there is no difference between them when it comes to killing civilians. Obama had an historical opportunity to break clean with Bush's wars, but he chose to follow the same path of evil.

[Pavulon]

117. That crime part should be a hint. We are responsible after

there is an investigation that shows a criminal act happened. Then people are responsible under UCMJ for murder, IF this is not all smoke and mirrors posted by the OP like the locked thread.

Civilians die in all war, that is a given. If they die because they are executed that is a criminal act.

You do see there are at least 4 sources saying 4 things, right?

[slay]

90. But.. Obama says this is a GOOD war..

:eyes: Wake up people - Obama only seems good when compared to Bush - his whole horrible approach to Afghanistan has cost him my support and hopefully the support of all peace loving people out there. :hippie:

[Vidar]

92. K&R. As usual, we're intensifying our war crimes.

[democrank]

95. Thanks, David

[Prometheus Bound]

96. Scary, the people accusing you on another thread of having made this up, posting agitprop, etc.

That's pretty sick. Anyone could find out in minutes that it was a credible editorial comment.

There's some heavy duty propaganda being posted here, but it isn't from you.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

97. Silly You!

http://peaceoftheaction.org/

One more reason to be a part of Peace of the Action

[scarface2004]

98. we are all war criminals!!

eff mee!!

[Dr.Phool]

101. My country 'tis of me.......

I can't think of a way to get that to rhyme with fascist, imperialist, war criminals.

[gleaner]

103. I wouldn't question you ......

After learning about similar atrocities in Iraq, I have to ask why anyone thought it would be any different in Afghanistan? Wars bring out the very worst in all parties involved, especially when they are wars of occupation. All the people of Afghanistan want is for us to get out and go home. They are tired of the slaughter and terror that has been visited on them by us and by other countries.

Thank you for writing your well researched post and for the links. I gave it a rec, and this should serve as a kick. Thanks to you we have knowledge that we needed to help us focus more closely on what this war means to us and to the people of Afghanistan. You have done a remarkable job.

[winyanstaz]

104. K & R for a dang good job reporting the news in DU...

thank you . :)
This is a very important story and a major crime against humanity.
This is so shameful and terrible and I just cant think of a word strong enough to convey my outrage that this would happen by Americans.
I do NOT want any of those bastards coming back home and living in my community! They are NOT soldiers..they are murdering cowardly chicken**** criminals and I want them arrested!

[Pavulon]

136. Thankfully "want" does not get people arrested and jailed

it takes evidence, and investigation to actually establish a crime happened. According to the UN and NATO it did not happen. No executions. Collecting links and writing a rant is not reporting.

Real reporters have to print retractions when they are wrong.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33379&Cr=afghan&Cr1=

[winyanstaz]

179. so you believe nato and the un...who are the ones supporting these wars...

and not the bodies of the children, the local authorities and the people who lost families... :)
Got it.

[Pavulon]

188. I believe these pictures show a man who bled out on his hand

pretty hard to do if it is handcuffed behind you. Now I said an investigation is warranted and if executions happened they should be prosecuted. The OP sold as gospel truth the US military executed handcuffed kids. These pictured do not show, cuffs, kids, or rifle hits in the head.

They do show a guy who bled out on his hand and shirt. Difficult to do if it is zipped behind your back. Before people go asking for "white hot rage" they may want to get their facts straight.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[rgbecker]

228. Please read your own link! "According to the UN and NATO it did not happen?"

Where does it say that?

Statement by Kai Eide, the Special Representative of the Secretary-General for Afghanistan


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


31 December 2009 - In the early morning of 27 December, ten Afghans were killed during a raid by Afghan and international military forces in Narang district of Kunar province. Dari - Pashto




Many details of the incident remain unclear. Based on our initial investigation, eight of those killed were students enrolled in local schools. There is also evidence to strongly indicate that there were insurgents in the area at the time. UNAMA continues to investigate this incident to help bring clarity to the situation; I welcome efforts by the Government of Afghanistan and the international military to do the same. I appeal for calm while these investigations continue.

The United Nations remains concerned about night-time raids given that they often result in lethal outcomes for civilians, the dangerous confusion that frequently arises when a family compound is invaded, and the frustration of local authorities when operations are not coordinated with them. Night time raids are a source of great distress to the families which are directly affected as well as communities throughout Afghanistan given safety and cultural concerns. I continue to raise such matters with the concerned authorities.

UNAMA is equally concerned about the risks posed to civilians by insurgents living or operating in residential areas. They account for the majority and an increasing proportion of civilian deaths.

I appeal again to all of the armed actors to make every effort to minimise harm to civilians and want to underline the importance of taking all precautionary measures to distinguish between civilians and combatants. Greater efforts must be made to reverse current trends so that civilians are spared the worst effects of armed conflict in the coming year.

[IsItJustMe]

328. I guess that is why there are so many people who believe in Karma and Hell. Because whoever would

do such things to other human beings, well, there just seems like there has to be a special place for them when it is all said and done.

[TheMadMonk]

105. Did this happen? Not "provable". Is there a significant likelihood...

...that it may well have happened as claimed by the locals? For that question the only honest answer is: Most definitely.


Post WWII, in vitually every war/"war" that the US has involved itself in, has been demonstrated that US actions include employment of tactics that can only be catagorised as war crimes. Mai Lai was not an isolated incident. It was simply the only one amongst dozens (or more) where an honest and moral man made a big enough stink to rub the public's nose in what was going on.

Laos and Cambodia were more of the same. And again in South America, whilst there may not have been any significant direct involvement by US forces, its hand stiring the pot and encouraging attrocity has been most comprehensively demonstrated. Iraq-Iran; Right across Africa; Iraq-Kuwait; Iraq 2.0; and Afghanistan. Directly or indirectly the evidence exists to demonstrate that US military forces or other proxies of US interests have acted in ways guaranteed to promote conflict.


In fact echos of this same pattern of behaviour can even be found in the Lusitania incident, and in Pearl Harbour.


So while it can not currently (and may well never) be demostrated with any degree of certainty that US forces (or proxies) did deliberately execute handcuffed boys in the middle of the night, there is every reason in the world to entertain the possibility and not, absent that proof, dismiss it out of hand, as one very vocal poster in this thread and its predecessor demands.

[G_j]

108. I remember when news of Mai Lai first started breaking, people would get ANGRY

if you even brought it up. That was aprox. 500 people killed, so it was on a much larger scale.
I still sense similar anger from people who don't want to believe that these things can happen.

[Pavulon]

115. I read about an investigation and trial..

some process that established facts. One guy making a claim that contradicts the UN finding should still be investigated. Even though the UN did not report a war crime.

[TheMadMonk]

185. And a cover up. And efforts at all levels to demonise the one person...

...who did the right thing. The thing that the law absolutely demanded that he do. And the absolutely despicable behaviour of many members of the public towards that man, who even if they conceded that Mai Lai took place, saw the bloodying of America's nose on the world stage, as a greater crime.

If you are going to demand "FACTS" then you should in turn present all the relevant facts. Not just those that let you play defense counsel games on behalf of a clearly criminal party who just might happen to be innocent (in the sense of insufficent proof) of this one specific crime.

BTW. The claims made in the OP DO NOT contradict the UN findings. The UN findings are that the dead were civilian, that they were of the ages claimed. These details are it would appear no longer in dispute. Where you would like us to believe there is dispute, lies in the details of how the boys died, and there the UN finding is that they make NO FINDING one way or the other. However they do note that the US forces have a less than stellar record when it comes to avoiding civilian casualties at night.

It remains possible that the claims of the OP are correct and it is possible that they are not. In a purely legalistic sense you might be correct in making the case that without proof, innocence should be pressumed. However stacked up against that are the many, many cases where well after similar incidents occured, when they were no longer "newsworthy", the US (after running through many denials and revisions) quietly conceded to fucking up and killing civilians under circumstances totally inconsistent with the rules of war.

[Echo In Light]

107. $icko Empire

[maryf]

112. Yay!!! Back where this oughta be, top dog!! K&R all day long!

:yourock:

[John Q. Citizen]

116. Thank you David, you are an inspiration to all of us to take action to make the world a better place

[Ohiodemoc]

120. Recommended. Someone needs to go to jail for this

War crimes and all crimes need to be punished accordingly.

[Pavulon]

134. I agree. If the facts supported the allegations made

someone should go to prison. If the person making the execution claim is lying he should be jailed. The madrassa guy, not the OP. So far NO war crime hint from the people who ran the investigation.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33379&Cr=afghan&Cr1=

[Ohiodemoc]

139. Kai Eide. Isn't that the guy who ordered a cover-up Karzai's fraud?

In an attack on the role of the UN in the elections on August 20, Peter Galbraith, who was sacked as Deputy Special Representative to the UN mission in Kabul last week, says that Kai Eide ordered him not to reveal evidence of fraud or to pass it to the authorities.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6861064.ece

[Pavulon]

160. You already got an out?

when the UN says this was not an execution. I am having a hard time finding kids, tied hands, or executed people in those pictures.

[Ohiodemoc]

172. Show me where the UN said this is not an execution

You need to make up your mind. Earlier, you said that the UN simply said nothing about whether these deaths occured via execution. But you also say that the UN "has said this was not an execution."

Point to the statement by a UN official where he says that executions do not take place.

[Pavulon]

182. How do you cough up lung blood on your hands if they are zipped behind your back?

at least one photo show blood on hands and clothes that would be pretty with you hands restrained, right?

Boy I sure feel like an asshole for asking questions about sourcing and waiting for an investigation before I go post that the US military murdered kids.

[Bjorn Against]

210. You dodged the question...

You were asked to give us a link to where the UN said that there were no executions, referencing a single photo hardly proves that there were no executions much less that the UN said there were no executions.

If you are going to slam David for not sourcing his material well enough when he has provided numerous links then I would suggest that you practice what you preach and provide a link to back up your claim that the UN said there were no executions.

[Pavulon]

215. For fucks sake. I corrected my post 3 times, this op will not do that.

I mis-posted there was NOthing as NO. An error on my part and I admitted it. If i changed it it would fuck up the thread.

Now how do you bleed out on your hands when they are zip tied behind your back? Where are the little kids, zip ties, executed people in these pictures.

Before I posted a thread TWICE accusing the US military of executing kids I would be real sure. Guess that is not important to the OP.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[Bjorn Against]

224. From your very own link....

"They enter the civilian houses and kill ten civilians, among them eight were school boys, one a poor farmer and a 12-year-old rancher"

Just because you don't see the kids in this particular set of pictures does not mean there were no kids there, all the sources I have seen said that kids were killed. Can you find me one single source that says that children were not killed? You can't pretend that a small group of photos represents the entire of the crime scene.

[Pavulon]

227. I did not post the US military executed kids.

When I post that NO kids were killed feel free to push me to back that up. Like I am pushing this OP. People are dead, that happens in war. The wrong people may be dead, also happens in a legally conducted war. Executions are illegal and claiming we cuffed and executed kids as gospel truth should be sourced.

The UN does not say we executed people, no investigation finds we executed people. If that happened someone should be charged.

That picture makes the claim of restrained and shot a bit harder to believe.

[Bjorn Against]

231. So you are having to back off yet another claim....

I think that David Swanson has done a hell of a lot better job of sourcing his work than you have, you post crap and then when you are called on it you are forced to back down.

As far as the one photo of the person who coughed up blood on his hands and therefore supposedly providing evidence there were no executions I give you this quote that was sourced in the OP...

"First the foreign troops entered the guest room and shot two of them. Then they entered another room and handcuffed the seven students. Then they killed them."

No one claimed everyone was handcuffed, in fact the original story implied that two people were not handcuffed. You can't take a single picture and try to claim it suggests there were no executions when that picture could possibly be of one of the people who was not handcuffed.

[Pavulon]

245. I corrected ONE post made in error. The op correct nothing. Not on the lock and not here.

there is NOTHING backing his claim the US military executed children while cuffed. I posted pictures no children, no cuffs.

I looked at each of those and none look like restrained children shot.

I dont know the op or give a fuck if he is jesus christ incarnate. He posted US military killed cuffed kids and sourced it with ONE article from the times that had ONE man claiming we executed kids. Locked.

He posted more sources, only ONE mentions execution. The UN makes NO mention of execution, a war crime. No mention of cuffed people being shot.

You called one error, which I freely admit. I am calling the original locked inflammatory rant and this one bullshit. There is NOTHING to support the claim of execution in those photos or in any investigation released.

What investigative source concludes the US military executed children in cuffs. Call it out.

[maryf]

125. Still love your original piece best...

http://www.davidswanson.org/node/2385

[lonestarnot]

128. Damn.

[hayu_lol]

164. It was supposed to be a 'joint exercise,' ...

who were the participants? We do not have any info tying US troops to this event.

"Troops descended from a plane." That is one eyewitness account. Another was to the effect that the troops came in in three helicopters and 'walked to the village.' Info conflicts. Did the eyewitness give any warning? Was the eyewitness identified? We don't know.

"Foreign troops." OK, UN involved. NATO involved. Afghan Army involved(?) but no actual statement that it was US Troops...at least not beyond any shadow of a doubt.

School headmaster: was he a Mullah? Was the school a Madrassa? From the previous thread on this by Swanson, there was one comment by the UN that weapons and bomb-making supplies were found. From today's threads here, we do know that the Madrassas' are now training children to attack British troops. From the time this action started some years ago, the Taliban has been training kids to be suicide bombers. One article was an interview with a mother whose eldest son had been so trained and blew himself up along with other people as ordered. The mother was considered an heroic figure at that time...the government gave her family a brand new home(concrete block)and the mother was quoted that she wanted other of her children to become 'martyrs.'

Too much obfuscation with this and we will probably never know the truth.

Bottom line is, don't be too quick to point the finger at our troops...they are, so far at least, not directly named and may never be.

Last point is this: This is not a war. Congress has not declared this to be a war. It is much more like a territorial gang fight than a true military action. No way to win under these circumstances and most of us do believe that the primary entanglement in Afghanistan was the oil pipelines.

Only civilians can change what is.

Primary investigation was by Kabul government personnel.

[Starry Messenger]

145. recommend.

[TBF]

148. K&R -

interesting to see all the war mongers show up again to try to discredit the story. The pathetic attempts are futile, and it should not be solely at the ballot box that we hold the leadership responsible, we should also be in the streets protesting.

[fascisthunter]

149. What People Will Rationalize... very telling

this is sick

[Pavulon]

150. Pictures worth 1000 spiteful words. No kids, no rifle hits in the head

injury shows bleeding from a lung hit or some sucking chest wound. One body shows trauma to the head but not a 556 to the back of the head.

You can google what a 5.56 ball round does to a persons head. It shears it off at the nose line, or causes catastrophic damage. Seen what an rifle does, this is not it.

These are graphic but do not show kids or execution. My beard would not grow like that when I was in the National Guard, a Student, and shipped to Bosnia.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[Cassandra2010]

169. Here's the brief from the link

US Special Forces brutally kill 10 Afghan civilians in Narang

On Dec.27, 2009, at around 2:30 of mid night, US Special Forces raided Ghazi Khan Ghondi village of Narang District in Kunar province of Afghanistan. They enter the civilian houses and kill ten civilians, among them eight were school boys, one a poor farmer and a 12-year-old rancher. They all have been shot in the head.

Although the US occupation forces denied any involvement, but Kai Eide, special UN representative announced in a press conference that the "international forces" were engaged in the incident and "a preliminary United Nations investigation has found that eight students were among 10 Afghan civilians killed in Kunar province."

Also the photos taken by Special Forces from the dead bodies on the crime scene are included in this gallery which are obtained by RAWA through its supporters in Afghanistan.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

Afghanistan's government on Thursday also demanded that those responsible for the deaths of "innocent youths" be turned over to its custody.

NATO has denied its forces were involved, suggesting "non-military Americans" had returned fire in self-defence.

The UN statement also expressed the hope that both the Afghan government and international military would do what they could to get to the bottom of the incident.

...

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/01/01/school-children-killed-in-coalition-raid-in-afghanistan-un-probe-finds.html

More specific details of the students are available.

I'm wondering if once the full investigation is completed will you be offering a quasi-public statement if you are wrong on this? I'm wondering why your resistance to this. History is important and the attempts at censorship on this story are illustrative.

[Pavulon]

173. I have a bitch with the OP saying US troops executed kids, and selling it like

we are at a fucking tent revival. Like it is the gospel truth with nothing more than a single witness on a phone interview saying it happened that way. My position is that no US troops (army, navy, marines) executed kids in custody.

I would be happy to find out what really happened, were these guys shooting (they are not kids and are combatant age) or were they killed by accident. If they were executed in custody it is a crime and should be treated as such.

These pictures do not show people zip tied or executed with a gsw to the head.

I would be the first to express shame and outrage if the US military executed children and would push for a death penalty trial for a killer of kids. I have not done anything to apologize for by calling out the lack of sources and clarity.

I wonder if the OP will retract his slap against the US military if it is found to be untrue?

[P. Dexter]

177. To be fair, the OP didn't say the US "executed" kids

He linked to articles (TPM, AP, etc), and said nothing himself on the issue of executions. To say that he "said" US troops "executed" kids is a falsehood. If you wish to state that in your opinion, you believe that he implied that the US "executed" children, then that's another story. But we can't go around putting words in the OP's keyboard.

[Pavulon]

190. See the locked thread. He sure as shit did and I hope he has the balls

to retract it when this is resolved. I once again ask how do you cough up lung blood all over your hand when it is zip tied behind your back?

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

211. I am enabling jack shit by asking for a common sense

approach. This OP claimed the US military executed little kids. He used shit sourcing and the photos dont really back his position. I asked for fact that supports a crime. I am not discounting the whole thing, just saying it would be wise to have something to base your "white hot rage" on other than one person in a phone interview. I have stated at least 20 times that if a crime is committed the responsible should be tried.

War is enabled by the POTUS and congress. I am neither, so I enable shit.

[12string]

286. You Want a Common Sense Approach?

Common sense tells me there are 10 more dead people.I personally don't think war is ever the answer.If we weren't there no one could have killed them.Children or adults,the fact is they can't sit and pound their keyboards,extolling the good or bad,right or wrong,ever again, about anything. War is not the answer and it is time to reign in those who would have us killing people all over the world.The U.S.needs to bring its people home.Fuck war!I don't care if the picture doesn't support executions style killing.It shows dead people and dead is dead.Like that brave soldier a while back wrote on his flag,"There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people."Like John Prine said nearly forty years ago,"Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore."Common Sense says,"BRING THEM HOME!"No more killing.

[Pavulon]

295. The politics you posted are fine, claiming a mass murder of children

with no fact is not fine. The op claimed people cuffed and shot, kids, carried out by the US military. None of that is supported. Cant just go accusing people of mass murder and war crimes because your politics are anti or pro anything.

War can not be conducted without civilian deaths. That is a fact. The war is funded by congress and executed by the executive branch. Those dead people are a result of a war. That is not the same as being cuffed and executed.

[Prometheus Bound]

348. I hope you have the balls to admit you're wrong here.

In neither the original post nor in this OP did he use say they were 'shot in the head'. So you are flat out wrong. He also made it clear in several links that some were killed immediately before being handcuffed, so your 'discovery' that a picture of at least one murdered student without handcuffs was to be expected. So stop the nonsense. It's time to show some decency and apologize to the OP.

Here is the locked thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7377593#7378796

[maryf]

180. "they are not kids and are combatant age" Says who, you? sources??

The captions mostly say high school; on what authority, what knowledge basis do you say these are not kids??? Western Asians appear older as they are more hirsute, my students whose parentage hails from the Middle East/India all appear older, but they are kids, with kid's minds, aspirations, etc.. You who demand the truth cannot know what age these kids are, you weren't there, and these are from a funeral, after the fact, of course they are not tied. I am sorry but now I question the integrity of your posts. Your posts are slipping into the area you accuse the OP of being guilty of.

[Pavulon]

184. Say the pictures where the guy executed (hands zipped) bled out on his hand

I am NOT SAYING they were combatants. I am not saying they were not executed. I am saying a full investigation is warranted before people go on about white hot rage and US executions. Those pictures do MORE to support the position that it is way to early for a person to have a POSITION based on fact.

I asked for the truth. No more, no less.

[maryf]

191. The truth is those pictures showed kids, admit it, truthseeker, nt.

[Pavulon]

202. dupe

double post

[Pavulon]

203. Those pictures do not support the OP's postiion

no cuffs, no kids, no execution of zip tied people. Very difficult to bleed on your hand when it is zip tied behind your back.

[maryf]

209. They are kids

(and a peasant or two) What is your definition of a kid? age limit?

[Pavulon]

218. How do you cough up lung blood on your hands if they are zipped behind your back?

I am still trying to figure that out. The OP posted TWICE the us military executed children. His white hot rage may have been going on the first rant but not here.

Either they had weapons and were killed, these guys arent 10. They were shot or killed by error in an operation, which is horrible, but not a war crime. Or the US military executed children in custody as the OP posted. Before I posted that I would certianly want to have something more than a phone interview to back it up.

No cuffs, and I dont see children in these photos.
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[maryf]

259. "these guys arent 10"

and nothing anywhere said 10, the articles said between 12 and 17, all kids in my book, facial hair notwithstanding and I'm been through that...Hirsuteness does not preclude being a child still...

[Nikki Stone1]

262. No, the articles said: AP (12-14), LAtimes (12-17), UN (nothing), and RAWA had the photos

that looked like young men definitely over 16. I really would like these ages established.

[Nikki Stone1]

257. They look like bearded young men to me, unless you have other pictures.

I am still not sure about the ages of these students, since different sources mention different ages: AP says 12-14, LA Times says 12-17, UN gives no info, and the RAWA photos look, at very least, over 15 or 16. I thought some of those guys looked like they were in their 20s, but that could be the lighting. Do you have other photos that are clearer? I'd really like to establish this.

[maryf]

261. The kid photos all say they are in school, the other's say peasants...

Kids from that area of the world look older, I know I teach them. I had one who looked 25, he was 15...its the age not the appearance...look closely, those are young faces...one that looks older says he is a peasant...

[Nikki Stone1]

263. You teach kids from Afghanistan?

Where do you teach?

[maryf]

266. No, but from Pakistan...

Not many per year, but through the years quite a few...rural upstate NY...some from India...

[Cassandra2010]

183. I believe we are talking about

"special forces" here and what is placed under that umbrella has become increasingly murkier. I don't think the OP is referring directly to "US military" though what falls under that umbrella is also becoming hazier.

[Pavulon]

186. No , that is a crystal clear term. Though many do not know that.

Either US military Special Forces ( that term is generally applied to Army personnel) under the command of JSOC executed people in custody as the OP posted or they did not. My problem was the poster saying the US military, which includes the spec op community (all branches), executed little kids in handcuffs.

Now any situation other than that (some contractor) is not something I posted on and not what the OP said. I still stand by the statement that ANY force committing war crimes should be prosecuted.

[IndianaGreen]

200. The point remains that we are slaughtering Afghans and Pakistanis

Hundreds have been killed with drone strikes.

[IndianaGreen]

199. Rawa says they were school children

and people grow faster in the harsh environment that is Afghanistan.

[Pavulon]

208. Sure grow faster, now how does lung blood bleed out on your hands when they are behind your back?

Pictures dont need commentary. They speak for themselves. Nothing there shows cuffs, or execution. It is more reason to wait for an investigation before saying the US military killed kids.

[IndianaGreen]

212. The Afghan government said they were civilians killed by US/NATO forces

I don't expect the Pentagon, which whitewashed My Lai and the Pat Tillman friendly fire death, to really investigate.

Knowing how SOF operates, it is possible that the killers may have been CIA contract paramilitaries rather than regular US troops. It has their signature.

[Nikki Stone1]

236. The photos you link to are of bearded young men, not kids.

Are these the right photos?

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2010/01/01/school-children-killed-in-coalition-raid-in-afghanistan-un-probe-finds.html

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

Were these adult students?

[Pavulon]

248. My point exactly, I was a student when I was on active duty

a freshman at nc state. The original claim of children executed by US military is not sourced and not a fact.

[Nikki Stone1]

252. Associated Press says 8 of the dead were children between 12-14

That's where David Swanson got his info. The UN report mentions 8 "students" but doesn't give ages:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33379&Cr=afghan&Cr1=

The AP sources the ages of the children to Afghan government.

The LA times, offering the same source says "between 12 and 17"

How accurate is RAWA?

[Pavulon]

253. I take offense with the "US military executed children in cuffs"

I just took their photos, the commentary is not something sourced as fact. Claims like that should be backed up. It is a war crime. If people were accidentally killed that is a tragedy, but not an execution of cuffed kids.

[Nikki Stone1]

255. I'm back on the ages still. It seems like each source has a different set of ages

associated with it. 12-14 (Associated Press), 12-17 (LA Times), no ages at all (UN), and photos of seemingly bearded young men (RAWA).

I'd like to really know what these ages are. It seems like the media is not totally sure.

I can't speak to any of the other stuff. I am also not sure who the "international forces" were. (There is a claim for Special Forces in one source, but "international forces" could be Xe-Blackwater, in which I am inclined to believe the worst but have no proof for it.)

[Pavulon]

256. I will not discount the contractor aspect. I hope

who ever is investigating completes their final document quickly. Special Forces means Army. I have a problem with that without more info.

No one is sure about this. Which is why it is offensive to blame the Army or Us military for cuffing and killing kids.

[Nikki Stone1]

260. If it were contractors, it would seem to be payback for the 8 deaths, hence a motive

I hope that it isn't Special Forces, and it seems unlikely that they'd be out for payback.

However, I am still stuck on the photos. I wish there were others to compare them to.

[Pavulon]

268. Me too. I will continue to watch this

as any illegal killings are a criminal act. They should be prosecuted if it is a murder case. I hope it is not the Army, I would find shame in that. My experience was to stop events like this one on bosnia. The people who executed innocent bosnians were evil and many are still free men.

[truth2power]

154. See, David? What I said in the other thread that was locked....

I tried to say in a round about way. Certain things you're not allowed to talk about.

I greatly appreciate your efforts here.

[The Wizard]

189. Commence withdrawal immediately.

This is the sign that our troops have lost all hope.

[Pavulon]

198. Hey OP. How do you bleed out lung blood on you hand when it is zipped behind your back?

You posted the US military executed kids in cuffs. These photos seem to put that into question. In your "white hot rage" maybe you should consider waiting until an investigation actually concludes that this happened.

Will you retract this if it is not supported by facts from an investigation?


You can google up pictures of what close range rifle or pistol hits in the head look like. That is not present in these pictures.

"First the foreign troops entered the guest room and shot two of them. Then they entered another room and handcuffed the seven students. Then they killed them." I assume is you basis for this thread and the locked rant.

It is reasonable to investigate before you accuse the US military of executing children.

pictures. Note the men, note the lack of little kids, note the lack of cuffs, note the lack of high velocity impact to the head from 556 nato or 762x39, note the blood the dead man coughed up all over the hand that was supposed to be ZIP TEID behind his BACK. That is a tough one.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/rawagallery.php?mghash=dc96d38caecd6694eb17fc894bb73212&mggal=8

[IndianaGreen]

207. Why don't you redeploy to AfPak and live out your fantasies?

BTW, the perps could have been US paramilitary contractors (that's my theory).

[Pavulon]

230. To old, dont wanna, been there done that.

The OP said the US military cuffed and executed kids. I have a problem with that. If it turns out not to be true, the OP owes a retraction.

[IndianaGreen]

250. FWIW, I suspect the killers were CIA paramilitary contractors

It has their signature.

[Pavulon]

254. That could be the case, then the OP would need to retract the us military

executed children comment.

[P. Dexter]

221. Are you saying we shot them in the lungs or hearts instead of the head?

Ugh, what a relief.

[Pavulon]

234. I am trying to figure out how you bleed out all over you hand when it is zip tied

behind your back. I am also trying to figure out if this OP will retract the statement the US military cuffed and killed kids if it did not happen. Having transported heavy equipment all over the remnants of yugoslavia and worked with people who investigated executions I can say the ones discussed were carried out with a rifle or pistol shot to the head.

Again, the post in inflammatory and should be backed up with fact before claimed as gospel truth

[Bjorn Against]

240. How do you know the picture you saw was not of one of the two people who were not handcuffed?

"First the foreign troops entered the guest room and shot two of them. Then they entered another room and handcuffed the seven students. Then they killed them."

The original story was that eight of the ten people were handcuffed, showing a picture of one person who was likely not handcuffed does not discredit the information that eight others were.

[Pavulon]

251. More than one picture, not a cuff to be seen.

no kids, nothing to support the claim of execution by the OP and one other person that the us military executed kids. Note there is no Investigation from the UN or any other source stating an execution took place. I guess the us military picked up all their brass after executing children.

NONE of those pictures shows a person in cuffs, none show children.

Calculate the odds for me.

[Bjorn Against]

258. First I would ask who took these pictures...

Do you know where this internet site obtained the photos, and are you positive they are from the actual crime scene? Second I would point out that in most of these photos the hands are not visible so it is impossible to tell whether they are cuffed or not, although the man in the black button down shirt that appears to have been shot in the head at point blank range is positioned as if his hands are likely tied behind his back.

Before we discuss these photos any further however I would really like a source for who took them and how this website obtained them.

On edit: I notice on further inspection that the claim is that photos were taken by special forces and obtained by RAWA through their supporters. I think RAWA is a pretty reliable organization, but whether or not their "supporters" are reliable sources is another question. I would like further confirmation that these are the actual photos of the crime scene.

[Pavulon]

270. Me too. I would like the OP to retract his US military killed cuffed kids

shit until there is some real proof. I take that personally and know many people who take pride in their service who would too. Now if there was evidence of a war crime you can bet I will support a trial.

The only picture that shows head trauma is obscured. Others show hands with lung blood splattered from a cough, not bled out after the person dies and their corpse was dragged.

There needs to be a conclusion from some source before we condemn the US military for executing children in cuffs.

[Bjorn Against]

272. What do you mean "me too"? I was asking you for a source I wasn't agreeing with you.

Assuming those are the actual pictures of the crime scene however then the photo of the man in the black button down shirt clearly shows he was shot in the head, there is nothing even remotely "obscured" in it. Where they were shot is beside the point though, the fact is the OP never said they were shot in the head it said they were killed. They are dead, and I do not understand why you are getting so hung up on whether they were shot in the head or someplace else because they were killed either way.

[Pavulon]

274. Nope, that shows a guy who bled out his nose. Clearly

you have not seen a person shot in the head with a rifle. I have, google it. Hard to miss. They are dead for sure, I see no cuffs, no children and nothing backing the OP's claim of execution of children.

The OP has some clarification to make..



"The occupied government of Afghanistan and the United Nations have both concluded that U.S.-led troops recently dragged eight sleeping children out of their beds, handcuffed some of them, and shot them all dead" oops looks like that was a bald faced lie.

Retractions take balls.

[Bjorn Against]

276. A nose bleed so severe that it looks like half his face is blown off?

Sorry, even the very worst nose bleeds don't cover the entire right side of a person's face in blood. That is still beside the point however because the OP never said all of the victims were shot in the head, they are still clearly dead and where they were shot is besides the point. You say there are no cuffs, do you have pictures that show the hands of the victims so that we can see there are no cuffs? I only see two photos with the hands visible, and the reports implied that two people were not cuffed.

Also assuming these are the actual photos of the crime scene how can you prove that none of these people are not the ages given in the reports? As a poster upthread said many people in that part of the world do look older than they actually are. I ask again can you find me a single link that contradicts the ages that were given in the original reports?

[Pavulon]

277. No, a guy who had blood in his lungs or guts when he dies.

The photos stand. Here is a link to what a rifle round does to a human head at close range. Note the catestrophic damage caused by the pressure existing in the head combined with hydrostatic shot.

http://(

Remove (www) to get link. Obviously I dont advocate the site or the nature of its content. Just used to prove my point.

[Bjorn Against]

279. I will not look at some sadistic site called "BestGore.com"...

As I said before however it does not matter whether these people died from head shots or not because either way they are dead and the OP never said they died from head shots. You are obsessing over something that is irrelevent to the case and ignoring the real questions.

I ask again do you have photos which clearly show the hands on more than two of the photos so we can see that they are not cuffed?

Do you have a link that contradicts the ages of the people given in reports or are you just assuming they are older because they look older in the pictures?

[Pavulon]

280. I will not embed the picture but here is the point

when a person is shot in the head with a 5.56 or 7.62mm round moving at 3000fps the human head will shatter. The brain is destroyed and gasses from the weapon cause more damage. There is NO WAY that person was shot with a rifle or sidearm. NONE.

Why dont you post some fucking pictures. Why dont you back up your claim that that person was shot in the head. You said he was, he was not. You can goolge gunshot head to see why.

I will not embed the picture or any other picture that shows a persons head removed by a gunshot.

No cuffs, no evidence of execution. Gunshot executions are harried out with a shot to the head in every case I ever heard of.

No evidence of OP's claim. Will wait to see if he retracts it.

[Bjorn Against]

282. Show me where the OP claimed these people died of head wounds

If people want to see the picture I was referring to they can follow the RAWA link and see for themselves. I am not going to post graphic photos on this thread, especially when they are irrelevant and you are only trying to distract us by focusing on head shots when the OP was not about head shots.

If you want to talk about head shots then please tell us where David Swanson claims all these people died of head shots.

On edit: By the way I noticed you dodged the two questions I asked you.

[Pavulon]

283. OP claimed the US military cuffed and executed kids, got locked

then he opened this thread and posted the same shit. So in these pictures there are NO KIDS, NO CUFFS, NO signs of execution, NOTHING that shows a war crime. NO headmaster on the phone making the claim nothing to back the assertion the US military cuffed and killed kids.

Where are the cuffs? how do you bleed on your hand when it is behind your back. What are the odds the body with the blood on his hands was one of two not "executed". That is a math question?

When you look up gunshot execution where are the shots placed?

Where is the evidence to support an execution claimed by the OP? Do I need to provide evidence in a topic I may post, or is this poster special?

Like I said David Swanson means jack shit, he is a guy posting shit on the internet, no more no less.

Will the poster apologize and retract his statements when they are not proven out?

[Bjorn Against]

285. You did not answer my questions.

The word "execution" does not mean "head shot", hanging is a form of execution, lethal injection is a form of execution, firing squads are a form of execution (and those firing squads do not always aim for the head). Show me where David Swanson claimed they were executed by head shots.

And I noticed you could not provide any pictures which clearly show the hands of more than two victims so we can see whether or not they were cuffed. You can't tell how a person's hands are positioned by looking at a picture of their face.

On edit: Almost forgot to answer your "math question", the chances of being one of the two people who was not handcuffed in a group of ten is 20%. That is a one in five chance, in other words it is not at all unlikely.

[Pavulon]

294. So there is an 80% chance a random body from the "crime"

would be one that was restrained? I did not take the pictures and would supply more if I could. They have gone a very long way to destroy the claims of the OP of cuffed murdered children.

He claimed executed children cuffed. Nothing even comes close to that. I cant remember a single picture or incident where an execution where a person was shot involved a body shot.

When you want to kill a person at close range you shoot them in the head.

[Bjorn Against]

299. Sure there is an 80% chance that a random body was restrained...

But when you see one body whose hands are not restrained it is a very safe bet that they are among the 20% who were not handcuffed.

I don't care what pictures you have seen of executions, I personally don't surf sites like the "bestgore.com" snuff site you linked to in this thread. And for your information I don't want to kill a person at close range, so I don't particularly want your advice on how to do it.

All I am saying is that the word execution is a lot more broad than you think it is, so all this focus on head shots when David Swanson never talked about head shots is nothing more than a distraction.

[Pavulon]

305. Those are pretty good odds on that claim

but the picture shows the opposite. Dance all you want with that link friend. When a person is shot in the head with a rifle at close range, their head pops like a grape. Both AK variants and Stoner rifles cause that type of damage.

This OP, whatever his fucking name is, claimed the US military (army) cuffed and killed children. If this is disproven by fact I fully expect the OP to retract that shit and post his rant along with the retraction.

Those are his word, he OWNS them now.

"The occupied government of Afghanistan and the United Nations have both concluded that U.S.-led troops recently dragged eight sleeping children out of their beds, handcuffed some of them, and shot them all dead"

[12string]

292. Children or Adults

Matters not.Whether it was our military or private contractors paid by ht U.S government,matters not.The fact is you and I killed them.Every U.S. citizen killed them.We are all GUILTY and will remain so until we force our government to stop.

[Pavulon]

298. That is a fine political statement. Murder matters, shooting cuffed kids

like the op claimed is a war crime punishable by prison. It is a serious claim and should not be dismissed. It should not be political.

It matters to me if the Army in which I served conducted a war crime as this poster claimed. Their claim is clear and I will follow this until it is settled.

[rgbecker]

243. Let's have a closer look.

Can't find anyone claiming shooting to head. Please source.

Can't find anyone claiming to rifle or pistol hits to head. Please source.

Some of the pictures show hands free of cuffs. No one claims using zip ties. Only mention of handcuffs. Please source.

All dead in pictures are without weapons, ammo belts or any military dress.


What evidence have you of bleeding out on hand? The picture? Or UN report?

I'm concerned about your dwelling on damage a 556 can do to a head. Have you been able to talk this over with anyone?

Who can we rely on to give us the ages of these people? You, using your judgement looking at pictures, based on facial hair?

[Pavulon]

249. OP said children executed by US military cuffed

no cuffs, no gsw to head, generally how you execute someone. And a guy who bled out all over his hand and shirt. Hard to do in cuffs (flex ties).

No one uses metal cuffs except MP. Flex ties are used to restrain people. Dont see any on the bodies.

Seen pictures of people executed with both types of rounds, damage is catastrophic and recognizable, even on a decomposed body.

It is a serious claim and should be sourced. ONE person is the basis for this posters thread that children were executed.

They all look old enough to complete the manual of arms on an AK and old enough not to be children. This does NOT mean they were not civilians, only that I see nothing sourced that supports an execution. A war crime.

OP's white hot rage may have clouded his initial rant, but not this repost. Wonder if he will retract this post if no war crime is found.

[Name removed]

264. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

273. Here ya go..OP has not retracted this shit yet. Will he have the balls to??

"The occupied government of Afghanistan and the United Nations have both concluded that U.S.-led troops recently dragged eight sleeping children out of their beds, handcuffed some of them, and shot them all dead"

Seems like the UN did not conclude that either. Real journalists hate retractions. But they do write them.

[rgbecker]

284. "Seems like the UN did not conclude that either."

Well that seems to be the case! In fact, they haven't "Concluded" much else than that the dead included a 12 year old and students from local school. I don't think its time to retract anything based on the evidence you have brought to the discussion. Read your own link please and save us the time.

Afghanistan: top UN envoy voices concern over mounting civilian toll

French troops assigned to the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan
31 December 2009 – As the United Nations investigates a joint raid by Afghan and international forces in which 10 people – mostly students – were killed, the world body’s top envoy to Afghanistan today appealed to all groups, both government and insurgent, to step up efforts to distinguish between civilians and combatants.
Details surrounding the 27 December incident, in which the 10 civilians were killed in northeast Afghanistan, are still unclear, but according to the UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA), there is strong evidence pointing to insurgents having been in the area at the time.

“I appeal again to all of the armed actors to make every effort to minimise harm to civilians and want to underline the importance of taking all precautionary measures to distinguish between civilians and combatants,” Kai Eide, the Secretary-General’s Special Representative, said in a statement.

“Greater efforts must be made to reverse current trends so that civilians are spared the worst effects of armed conflict in the coming year.”

Mr. Eide, who also heads UNAMA, said that the world body remains concerned about night-time raids since they are often deadly and local authorities are frustrated when operations are not coordinated with them.

For safety and cultural reasons, evening raids are distressful to families directly affected by them, as well as to communities throughout Afghanistan, he added.

“UNAMA is equally concerned about the risks posed to civilians by insurgents living or operating in residential areas,” the envoy said. “They account for the majority and an increasing proportion of civilian deaths.”



News Tracker: past stories on this issue

Insecurity and corruption hinder UN assistance in Afghanistan: UN official

[Pavulon]

316. No mention of cuffs and murder in custody. Think they may have mentioned that part.

the OP used the UN to back this post.
"The occupied government of Afghanistan and the United Nations have both concluded that U.S.-led troops recently dragged eight sleeping children out of their beds, handcuffed some of them, and shot them all dead"

He has not retracted that claim.

[rgbecker]

281. Would the villagers need keys to undo the "flex ties?"

What is your source that children were not executed?

What is age cut off for "Children" or is there another criteria for the designation? (Ability to read an AK-47 handbook?) (In what language?)

While you're at it, what is your definition of "execution?" Does it need to be a shot to the head? Could it be a gun shot through the body? How about a hand grenade into a room of sleeping civilians? Not that I saying that's what happened here. In fact "they" say 7 were "Handcuffed" and "Executed." But we better had define our terms.

[Pavulon]

290. OP said cuffed and shot. Flex cuffs can be cut off

but they leave marks on a body and all the pictures I have seen where a person had them on when they were killed no one took them off. You going to get blood all over you hands and gear by cutting them. Then are you packing them out?

Shooting a person in cuffs in murder, and a war crime. It is punishable by life in prison.

Tossing a grenade into a room is not what the op posted.

[rgbecker]

296. Would the villagers have cut them off before burial?

Would the shooters be interested in packing them out...you know to cover themselves?

[Pavulon]

301. I would assume if the locals had them they would turn them over

I never saw a picture of an execution that was conducted with a gun that did not include a shot to the head. That is MY EXPERIENCE no more no less. Cant speculate about the cuff thing because there is no information anywhere to back it.

Before I claimed the US military (the Army) murdered cuffed children I would be real fucking sure. But hey that is just me.

[rgbecker]

310. Here's the only mention in OP about US troops:

from the london times quote:
"Assadullah Wafa, who led the investigation, said that US soldiers flew to Kunar from Kabul, suggesting that they were part of a special forces unit."

Otherwise all the links mention "foreign" or "western" forces, not US. I don't think the OP is jumping, and even says things should be questioned.

Your posts suggests the dead could not have been cuffed as they had blood on their hands....now you say you can't speculate and I appreciate that and I will join you to say there is a lot more to learn about this incident, but it sure doesn't look or sound too damn democratic.

[Pavulon]

314. Nope here are his words, he owns them.

"The occupied government of Afghanistan and the United Nations have both concluded that U.S.-led troops recently dragged eight sleeping children out of their beds, handcuffed some of them, and shot them all dead"

There are no pictures of flex ties or cuffs, or rope, so no there is nothing in a picture to speculate about. Kinda my point.

Hard to cough blood all over you hands if they are zip tied behind you. That is how zip ties are used.

[rgbecker]

320. Tearing my hair out looking for your quote in the OP!

Could you help me out?

Are you saying because there are no pictures of cuffs in link, there were no cuffs in the incident? What's your source?

You haven't responded to the idea of packing the bodies out, could that be in play here?

[Pavulon]

322. I am saying a cuffed man appears to have bled out on his hands.

Odd. If we executed children like this op claims that would show up in a UN news item maybe?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7377593

I dont see cuffs in the photos. Dont hear about reports in the initial UN report. No mention there of war crimes, just night ops.

Those pictures do not look like they were packed out. They show locals burying bodies.

[polly7]

327. wow. your excuses are all so imaginative. nt.

[Pavulon]

332. What do you have, I posted photos and links

That do not mention executions. OP cited UN saying we executed kids. he owns that now.

are we in church here? Is this a tent revival, you take it all in as gospel fact that the US military murdered kid in cuffs. Not shit like that in the photos.

Guess my faith is a little weak. I like corroboration and evidence. Guess that is asking a lot when you claim a mass murder and war crimes.

[polly7]

334. I take as fact the information provided in link after link.

No, I'm not in church ..... what a strange thing to say. A decade of seeing dead children - 'mistakes', murder and rape, trials where nothing happens ...... this is sad and horrible, but certainly would be nothing new. Mass murder and war crimes are almost the norm this last decade, you'd have had to be Rip Van Winkle to have missed them all. Think Fallujah. Or the rape, murder and burning of a young girl and her family. Or tossing the two boys off the bridge. I've seen sick, really, really sick pictures of children's body parts on the internet when service members were still allowed cameras with what were supposed to be funny captions. No problem whatsoever believing these children were executed.

[Pavulon]

341. Good luck with your beliefs, Not one source

mentioned it today. NOTHING. The UN does not mention anything else about it. Lets stay on topic. Guess they would just blow off an execution in their preliminary investigation. This poster mixed commentary from a times uk article, the only one saying there were executions of cuffed children, and said the un backed that as well.

So here's the deal. If nothing breaks in a week that fucker owns his murder allegation. I would assume any reputable community, even on the internet, does not allow a person to make a murder charge TWICE and stay around.. We'll see if he still back it like his word is god. See any dead kids in pictures, not a damn one. No cuffs, no executions (that is gsw head) not shit to back it all up, just dead men with beards. lots of faith to turn them in to tiny tim and little orphan annie executed.

You believe with no findings of evidence you are in church sister. That is called faith by some. I call it something else.

[scentopine]

246. yes - let's send the military team that investigated Pat Tillman's death

nothing you have posted in your hysteria casts doubt about the central facts of the case. You are advertising yourself as an expert at shooting people in the head. You claim first hand knowledge (via google?) at analyzing head wounds. Not only that your stated experience with world cultures, anthropology and endocrinology allows you to state without fear of contradiction that dead were not boys. Throw in a few references to lung blood and you have us all in the palm of your hand...

We all appreciate your autopsy - its similar to what I expect to hear from fox news or CSI on the event. Perhaps you can make some quick cash as an expert. On the other had we weigh your extraordinary loyalty to the military version of events against a mountain of easily obtained proof that the military runs a non-stop propaganda program that will undertake any extreme measure to cover-up any appearance of wrong doing.

There is nothing to be gained by a narco-state dictator whose wealth and power is directly dependent upon the billions of tax dollars we send him to prop up his government, irritating the military by fabricating claims of civilian deaths. He is easily replaced. There is also nothing to be gain by the UN fabricating news reports. The UN has been historically protective of US atrocities. They are under reporting the carnage. Nor is there anything to be gain about RAWA fabricating the facts around this case.

In fact there is everything to lose. They published pictures, names, schools, etc. If they are fabricating this event, it will be easily discovered. Until then you can spew all day long about lung blood and handcuffs and head shots and impress us all with your obvious forensics expertise.

When it comes to cover-ups, a pentagon with trillion dollar budget has the resources to create whatever truth they want including an invasion based on fabricated evidence. History supports this as objective fact. All the non-profits and volunteers arguing against the war and against torture and against atrocities were called liars. The truth eventually is revealed. Unfortunately too late for a million dead at the hands of our deception.

So,

- with all due respect to your obvious experience studying people shot in the head with large caliber bullets

- having been lied to so many times by our government and military

- seeing the extreme press restrictions still in place

- remembering how the denials of slaughter are eventually brought to light and events as originality reported are found to be true

- considering how the military planted paid consultants as "objective" commentators on news programs

I have no reason to believe the circumstances surrounding this event are any different than the others in which the military first denied any involvement.

Here is some additional reading on war atrocities.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/168/37151.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

205. Kick

[SandWalker1984]

214. Who were the non-military Americans on a sanctioned operation??

I came across some other sources and articles regarding the killing of the 8 children.

The Scotsman: US forces 'kill 8 children' in night raid on village in Afghanistan
Published Date: 31 December 2009 By JEROME STARKEY in KABUL
http://news.scotsman.com/world/US-forces-kill-8-children.5947753.jp

UNITED States troops have been accused of dragging innocent Afghan civilians from their beds and shooting them at close range, in a night raid that left ten people dead.

Government investigators said eight schoolchildren had been killed and all but one of the victims was from the same family. Locals said some had been handcuffed before they were killed.

But western military sources insisted the dead were all part of an Afghan terrorist cell responsible for manufacturing improvised explosive devices (IEDs), which have claimed countless soldiers' and civilians' lives.

***************


CIA Director: 7 CIA workers killed in Afghanistan - Yahoo! News
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091231/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan

- snip -

Also Thursday, the United Nations said a preliminary investigation showed that a raid last weekend by foreign troops in a tense eastern Afghan province killed eight students. The attack sparked protests by Afghans against foreign troops. Meanwhile, France's Foreign Ministry said two French journalists and their local guides were missing in Afghanistan.

***************

KABUL, Dec. 31, 2009

CBS News - U.N.: Afghans Slain in Raid Were Students
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/31/world/main6042536.shtml
Weekend Raid by Foreign Troops in Tense Eastern Province Killed 8 Schoolchildren Ages 12-14
(AP) The United Nations said Thursday that a weekend raid by foreign troops in a tense eastern Afghan province killed eight local students and warned against nighttime actions by coalition forces because they often cause civilian deaths.

The Afghan government said its investigation has established that all 10 people killed Sunday in a remote village in Kunar province were civilians. Its officials said that eight of those killed were schoolchildren aged 12-14.

NATO officials initially said all the dead were insurgents, but later backed off by saying there was no evidence to substantiate the claims that they were civilians. They requested a joint Afghan-NATO investigation to reach an "impartial and accurate determination" of what happened.

UN special representative in Afghanistan Kai Eide said in a statement that the preliminary UN investigation showed "strong indication" that there were insurgents in the area at the time of the attack.

But, he added, "based on our initial investigation, eight of those killed were students enrolled in local schools."

Civilian deaths are one of the most sensitive issues for international troops fighting the more than eight-year-old war. Although insurgents are responsible for the deaths of far more civilians, those blamed on coalition forces spark the most resentment and undermine the fight against the militants.

The coalition attack in Kunar has sparked protests by Afghans who have demanded that foreign troops leave the country.

********
Kabul demands foreign 'killers' handed over

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Kabul_demands_foreign_killers_hande_12312009.html


The Afghan government demanded Thursday to take into its custody foreigners wanted over the alleged killing of 10 civilians, sharply escalating a war of words with its powerful Western military backers.

The National Security Council (NSC) made the demand at talks chaired by President Hamid Karzai, who has been vocal in condemning international forces he believes are responsible for the incident last Saturday in the eastern flashpoint of Kunar.

"The meeting of the National Security Council demanded that those responsible for the deaths of those innocent youths must be handed over to the Afghan government," a statement from Karzai's office said.

Sensitivities about civilian casualties allegedly caused by NATO or US-led operations have driven a wedge between Karzai and his Western military allies who help keep his fragile government in power.

Karzai's ties with the West have already deteriorated over his controversial re-election after a ballot mired in fraud.

Around 113,000 NATO and US troops are fighting against a Taliban-led insurgency determined to topple Karzai's government and evict foreign forces, in an increasingly lethal war -- for civilians as well as combatants.

The row escalated Wednesday when Afghan government investigators accused Western forces of killing 10 civilians, eight of them teenagers, in a raid in Kunar province, which borders Pakistan.

NATO forces have disputed the results of the Afghan probe, saying the foreigners involved were non-military Americans on a sanctioned operation who fired in self-defense after being shot at by villagers.

But Afghanistan's powerful NSC accepted the findings of the investigation, saying foreigners entered a house and shot the 10 people, who were unarmed and posed no threat.

"International forces entered the area... and killed 10 youths, eight of them school students inside two rooms in a house, without encountering any armed resistance," the statement said.

The NSC condemned the "killing and emphasized the need for more coordination in military operations in a bid to avoid civilian deaths".

Around 1,500 people took to the streets Thursday for the latest in a string of protests over the alleged killings, using sticks to beat an effigy of US President Barack Obama and shouting "death to Obama", witnesses said.

In Asadabad, capital of Kunar, hundreds of students led the march chanting "death to America," "death to Britain and those who killed the students", witnesses said.

"We want the perpetrators brought to justice. The coalition forces must stop unilateral operations," said organiser Abdul Wahab.

Afghan authorities said they were also investigating reports of further civilian deaths in a NATO air strike.

- snip -.

The war of words over civilian casualties came as the Taliban claimed responsibility for a suicide attack on a US base that killed eight US civilians, and after a bomb attack killed five Canadians, including a reporter.


******************

This line caught my attention the most:

"NATO forces have disputed the results of the Afghan probe, saying the foreigners involved were non-military Americans on a sanctioned operation "

NON-MILITARY AMERICANS ON A SANCTIONED OPERATION. Would that be the CIA??? Blackwater/Xe??? There is more to this story than just some soldiers making an error in judgment.

[IndianaGreen]

232. CIA contractors, like Blackwater

They are the ones going around slaughtering civilians.

[G Gordon Libby]

339. Yes, CIA contractors must have murdered

the two-three hundred kids at Beslan too. Islamic terrorists don't murder-they're too busy digging wells, building hospitals and schools for the people, putting on fundraisers for local gay/L/TG community centers, working on human rights issues, organizing feminist literature study groups, doing poetry slams, you get the picture.

[HughMoran]

244. Sounds like a war crime to me

Whoever did this should be prosecuted & executed for war crimes.

[katandmoon]

289. If Bush and not Obama were in the WH - there wouldn't even be any debate about this. This would be

on Bush's head, period. There would be no nitpicking about beards or hancuffs. But because Obama is now president, the attempt must be made by some to make this massacre not seem like a massacre, in order to cover Obama's ass. Beyond tragic in all respects.

[Piewhacket]

291. Jesus. Obama needs to address this to the nation PERSONALLY and NOW.

Anything may be disputed.
But our President better not be a goddamn liar.

Did it happen?
If so, were Americans or American agents in ANY way involved.
ANY AMERICANS, ANY AGENTS (including especially of the bleeping CIA) ,
GIVING ANY AID OR ASSISTANCE TO ANYONE WHO HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT?
And if so, why aren't they in our custody and facing charges?

Well, Mr. President? Our country started this insanity, and you
have YET to hold any of the animals responsible for this debacle
or the crimes committed incident to it, to ANY legal account.

Address these claims Mr. President. Deny them, disclaim them,
dispute them, but don't even think about lying about it.

TEN Children dead Mr. President. SAY SOMETHING!!!!@!!

[G Gordon Libby]

336. It took him three days

to interrupt his golf game, pina coladas and grass skirt dancing-oops, I mean "getting briefed"-to get to the pantybomber. Take a number.

[dugaresa]

308. the ugliness of war continues

[rollingrock]

317. This calls for another Peace Prize

in the west they give out medals for this kind of thing don't they?

[G Gordon Libby]

338. Well, they handed that baby killer

Yasser Arafat a Nobel Peace Prize(TM), so I'd guess in the affirmative!

[humbled_opinion]

324. Welcome to HYPOCRISY

Maybe the Repubes will join us now in calling for prosecution of war crimes. I mean since Obama is the CINC....

[maglatinavi]

325. assassinations

I am horrified... Are any efforts being done to identify the troops that committed these henious crimes??? The war in Afghanistan should stop. There is no visible benefit from it and its carnage...
:grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: Nuke the criminals!!!

[Pavulon]

349. Sell any "white hot" books with this yet?

Get any white hot turnout at whatever you promoted? still not one word backing a murder in custody by US Army.. Is it cool if I accuse you of a felony in public and use that to sell some bullshit content? President of Afghanistan failed to mention anything like what this OP puked up today. nary a goddamn word.

Clock is ticking, wonder if OP has the balls to trot it back. You know the content of his white hot lie of a locked post.

Maybe he can just post a link to a e-commerce site to sell his bullshit. That's cool, accuse the Army of murdering tiny tim and little orphan annie to sell you politics. I wonder If i can get a source to back anything I can pull out my ass.

How special do I have to pull this off pointed at a domestic candidate, like say. Dennis Kucinich, can I make a felony accusation and back it in the "press"? Are the rules good for that, or does the Army only get that treatment.

Time will tell. More days pass, less corroboration for the OP's white hot rant. Ownership of your content comes with a free press.