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How can a tax ("mandate") on the middle class BY & FOR CORPORATIONS be called "reform" by Democrats?

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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 06:39 PM
Original message
How can a tax ("mandate") on the middle class BY & FOR CORPORATIONS be called "reform" by Democrats?
Edited on Wed Dec-30-09 06:41 PM by Faryn Balyncd



We all know of the hidden Middle Class Tax Time Bomb in the HC "reform" bill.


But the taxation of middle class insurance as "Cadillac" plans is not the half of it:


The truth is that even if the imminent labeling of normal insurance policies as "Cadillac Plans" resulting in an unprecedented middle class tax hike is DISREGARDED, the fundamental nature of what is now left of healthcare "reform" (now that the public option & Medicare buy-in option has been stripped) is that, for the first time in our history, all Americans will be required to purchase a product designed and priced by a private cartel.


Since this purchase involves a product that is already 17% of our GNP, even before the skyrocketing inflation of prices that will follow the mandate, and since this will need to be paid by the middle class out of after-tax dollars, this will be the most momentous middle class tax hike in our history.


When the Middle Class sees that they are paying a tax to the cartel greater than their entire federal tax bill, the Democratic Party will not be the beneficiary. And Middle Class backlash will not be deterred by sophistic rationalizations that such mandated payments to private cartels are not defined by our leaders as a "tax".


How did it come to this?


That the Democratic Party, the party of the people, now OWNS a bill that, if enacted, will mandate an unprecedently MIDDLE CLASS TAX to be collected by, and for the benefit of, a private cartel?


And have the chutzpah to call it "reform"?



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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Some very clever maneuvering in this bill to hide the broken promise not to raise taxes on those
with income less than $250,000. Once again, working and middle class Americans take it in the shorts to benefit the big guys. Very populist, this.
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evan2 Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Great post. Very perceptive question. Beautifully argued points. nt
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. K and R. eom
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. k/r
well said. :applause:
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. When the deal was made and the money paid for the legislation, they had to call it something.
Edited on Wed Dec-30-09 06:58 PM by Dragonfli
Other than a purchased law written to take our money and give it to those that commissioned the law in the first place. I wonder how much the IRS muscle cost them? A big muscle collection agency can't come cheap even for the "preferred" corporate customer.

If I could just sell laws to the highest bidder I imagine I would lie about it too. I guess it beats working for a living like the rest of us, funny thing is I still don't think I could go through with it knowing people will die by spreadsheet because of it... still.


No I don't think there is enough money to make me a great man, a politician and shop-keep to murderers.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. Excellent question. One that it is tough to explain to people.
They don't hear about it on the teevee so even my progressive friends are stunned when I explain this is in the bill. I've been able to get cons and progressives alike to call our Senators and Rep when I tell them this is coming down the pike.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. I consider this bill to be deform.
A deforming of "We the Peoples'" government to become an appendage and collection agency for the Robber Baron "health" insurance corporations and a 21st century version of feudalism.

Thanks for the thread, Faryn Balyncd.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. You're right. Kill this fucking medicare shit. Corporations make money off of it.
Also, fuck food stamps.

And the interstate highway system.

And carpool lanes.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. No, extend Medicare to all Americans.
Get rid of the costly middlemen from our Health Care system. We would save billions that now go into their pockets which could then be spent on actual care.

Medicare's overhead is 3% of the total costs. We the people cannot afford to keep this Private Business afloat anymore. And with their record of failure to actually do the job they are being so well paid for, why would anyone in their right mind put them solely in charge of what amounts to our National Security. Keeping Americans safe is not what they're good at.

Congress has the authority to tax people for the common good. Medicare, SS and Unemployment taxes are Constitutional and are not for profit. This bill is using the tax system as a collection agency for Private Insurance. That is not Constitutional.

Finally, if we had a Health Care tax according to income, everyone would save, it would be far less on most people and businesses than the premiums and co-pays they are now forced to pay. And EVERYONE would have EQUAL access to decent health care.

This bill discriminates also, the poor get substandard care under it, even the lower middle class. And the old can be charged more. Why? Why is this even worthy of discussion in a so-called Democracy?
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Fucking strawman.
Also a strawman.

And a strawman.

And a strawman.

If they expanded Medicare and raised taxes to support, nobody on the left would have a problem with that. Being forced to pay-or-else the same corporate bastards that PROFIT FROM OUR SUFFERING and made things as bad as they are is what is pissing us off. Insurance /= healthcare.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
26. Attacking straw men are the last recourse of those unable to argue on merit.

We're not arguing that corporations should not make money by offering a useful service.

But corporations have historically sought & abused monopoly power.

Democratic capitalism has depended on government countering such predation.

But this bill does the opposite by CREATING a mandate to purchase the unaffordable and inefficient product of the Insurance Cabal.

Medicare-for-All is what we need, and what most Americans support.

Under the American system, corporations are free to seek profit, but they must do it the old-fashioned way: by EARNING IT by creating value - - ie, creating a useful product people need and will freely purchase because it improves their lives, not because they are forced to pay a tax to a cabal.

But, instead of arguing these issues on their merits, you choose mockery, and pretend that we are against anything involving corporations making a profit, pretend that we are against Medicare (when, in fact, you know we are for the expansion of Medicare, pretend that we are against carpool lanes.

Your straw men arguments expose the lack of substance behind your position against REAL reform.




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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. It's a question more and more people are asking.
I don't think a majority of people are aware of this yet. I would like to hear Democrats explain this, especially those who were for a PO but appear to have caved to the Party pressure. Is there not one in the Senate who will refuse to do this without giving people a choice? I don't think I've been more disappointed in Democrats, ever before.

And then there is this:

for the first time in our history, all Americans will be required to purchase a product designed and priced by a private cartel.

Again, how is this Constitutional? And what changed Obama's mind about it? He said in a debate with Hillary that he could not support mandated insurance because to do so meant having some kind of enforcement mechanism and according to him at that time 'it would not be ethical to force people to pay for something they cannot afford'.

So now, he supports something even worse than Baucus' outrageous fines ($3,000 approx.).

Can they really turn the IRS into a collection agency for a huge corporation? Has that ever been done before? I would think that is way outside the scope of the function of the IRS. And why have the media been so silent about it?
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. How can the status quo be called anything but a bonanza for corporations?
They'd love it if this bill gets scuttled. They would be perfectly happy for things to continue as they are ... reaping profits and going totally unregulated. Picking and choosing who they want to insure. Getting unions to negotiate for benefits instead of wages, so they can keep jacking up the prices of policies that don't really give any more benefits at all. How fucking stupid is that?

I don't even know what to say anymore, beyond that famous SNL line: "You ignorant sluts." Honest, that's not's directed at anyone in particular, just the idiocy of thinking this bill is worse than nothing.

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evan2 Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Jane isn't here, but ins. is still a Ponzi ripoff. nt
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. The only ignorant people I see are the ones that haven't taken the time
to understand the TRUE cost of this bill. Not the happy talking points, but the financial reality for everyone involved. It IS worse than the status quo. Much worse. To top it off, it is a move AWAY from single payer. This bill is a piece of RW shit that Reagan would have given a testicle for.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. It's funny how I think the same thing of the opposite position
If you'd bothered to read people who actually understand the policy, you would not be making such statements.

So, we both think the other is uninformed. I guess that makes us even.

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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Well, good luck with your RW privatization screwjob.
The backlash cometh.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. The question settles itself
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 03:45 PM by Kid Dynamite
we shall see how popular this plan -- and those who crafted it -- is once the reality of it sinks in for everyday people. Ever seen anyone poll in negative numbers? Its coming.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. K&R.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. Nothing but wealth redistribution from the middle class to the rich and poor.
The insurance companies get richer and the poor get a little coverage.
The middle class shrinks. Business as usual for republocrats.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Perzactly. But the poor get more than a "little" coverage. Its better than many plans people can buy
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. change you can believe in , the audacity of hope --suckers !
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. 83% already covered and unaffected by the mandate.
Edited on Wed Dec-30-09 08:52 PM by Warren Stupidity
The middle class, the vast majority of it, has employer based health insurance and will continue to have employer based health insurance. Those already covered will not be affected by the mandate. There is plenty that is wrong with this bill,v very wrong, there is no need to invent problems that don't actually seem to be there.

The middle class will not "see(s) that they are paying a tax to the cartel greater than their entire federal tax bill" as the vast majority of us will continue to pay high premiums and other out of pocket expenses for crappy employer based managed care progeams, just as we have been for the last 20 years or so. Nothing much is going to change for most of us, which is in my opinion the real crime here.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. Our basic plans will be deemed "Cadillac" and thus TAXED.
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phasma ex machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. +1 K&R
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
19. Just think how much that middle class tax bill will go up, once Republicans take back over.
Fool yourself all you want about how the Republicans will never get back in power, but they will, and they are really going to make it hurt even worse for the American People, while they CUT & GUT funding for those it will help and to any help paying for premiums. And the Republicans will remind Americans every chance they get, about who gave them their Government Health Care Reform. Just look at what they have done to everything else, to predict what they will do to this.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. One of the horrible secondary consequences of the Senate bill is that GOP demagogues will benefit.
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. Sure its horrible
but the current demagogues are equally horrible. Which is a sad commentary on "progressivism". Maybe it should stand as an obituary.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-30-09 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. KNR
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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
28. Because it's all part of this "historic White House." Enjoy.
This is what we wanted, we got it.
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
29. I don't mean to sound like a teabagger, but
"The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose." -- Shakespeare (Merchant of Venice)
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
30. K&R
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PuraVidaDreamin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. Do you mind if I take this question to my congressman
Our group yesterday stormed his office- demanding to meet with him and
were quite certain there would be arrests, as they weren't leaving until questions
were answered or a date made for a face to face. To our surprise he agreed to a meeting
Jan 11.

And this question is PERFECT!
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Kid Dynamite Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
32. Simply barbaric
there is no other word for what Congress and Bush the Other Younger are foising on us

EVERY member of Congress and every prominent person in the Whitehouse ought to be locked up for this, among their many, many other crimes
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golddigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
35. K&R nt
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-31-09 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
36. Why of course it is reform. It is just that like the word
Edited on Thu Dec-31-09 04:54 PM by truedelphi
"Is" under Clinton, reform now means, well, it means something other than reform.

I was watching C Span at one point when the Repugs on Baucus committee were finessing some deadly strategy to alter the HCI scam Bill. (With the "I" being Insurance)

Several of them were saying, "So now that we are about done with the Health Care Reform matters, we should move on to "reform" MediCare!"

And they were all nodding.

So yes, it is reform because "reform" now indicates the process by which it makes the subject being reformed something that once would be floating about in the toilet!


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