Why the left must be willing to stand on principle, even if it means losing a battle

[Daemonaquila]

What is the real game? Is it a better future for our country? Or is it to win as many seats as possible, even when your party's candidates' politics are questionable? Is it to pass laws that benefit the people? Or is it to win passage of legislation brought by the party, even if it has to be watered down to nothing to do it?

If you wrote a list of the top 10 changes you think America needs, what would they be? If you compared them to the political work of your current federal, state, and local Democratic leaders, how's that working for you?

We're constantly told that if we don't do _______________, it'll mean a Democratic loss. Since when is it all about party wins or party losses, no matter the substance? Ben Nelson is a Dem. Stupak is a Dem. Even Jumpin' Joe is supposed to be one of "ours." Feeling like a winner yet?

It is time to fight for principles. Politics is not a football game where we root for one team or another, free of consequence. It is time to demand real change, real results, real accountability. It is time to say "Go to hell!" when we are told to move on, get over it, accept the outrageous because it's "better" than the alternative. Do note that the one thing the Rethugs have consistently done is stand on their warped principles - limitless capitalism, empire building, reintegration of church and state, etc. - and win. They've even been winning despite a Democratic president and a "veto proof" majority. Notice that Nelson and Jumpin' Joe have been standing on their principles, and derailing the work of that so-called majority. Wouldn't it be nice to see someone do that who's working for the benefit of the people?

Democrats, from local party organizations to the highest office, have been playing politics like novice chess players. The game becomes not about making a mate, but about protecting their pieces. They want to take the opponent's piece, but they can't possibly lose their own in the process. Sometimes it devolves into targeting a particularly scary opposing piece, such as starting a queen hunt, at all cost. It ends in disaster when their opponent, who is not afraid to lose some pieces in a good cause, maintains focus on checkmate.

I invite you to think about how far politics, and our own party, has devolved. For example, Rethugs and Dems alike voted for the USA PATRIOT act without reviewing the bill. Some Dems who took heat for it went so far as to lamely apologize, saying they wouldn't have voted for it if they'd known what they were voting for. Once upon a time, that kind of outrageous negligence would have been a mandate to step down in disgrace. But after limp mea culpas that would've made a megachurch preacher with a crack habit and a penchant for same-sex teen prostitutes blush, how many are still in office? How many of those have tried to undo their damage by dismantling that law? Or in more recent times, we can just turn this syndrome into a joke: How many Democrats does it take to throw American women under the bus? A veto-proof majority.

This lack of spine started in high school. We all knew who the lousy teachers were - the ones who hated teaching, hated the students, just phoned it in day after day. But there were always those kids who had to pretend to be mature and worldly (even in their own minds, if they weren't fooling anyone else). They'd say "I really didn't like Mr. ________, but I really learned a lot from him." Horse hockey. Apologizing for the state of our party, just like apologizing for a lousy teacher, is safe and comforting. It requires no action and no risk. Real change - the American Revolution, civil rights, emancipation, the New Deal - has never been safe or comfortable. It's scary - and wondrous.

It's time to take risks. It's time to act. I invite those who are disgusted by the current state of affairs, especially those who have said "I'm done," to start kicking some Democratic ass. If you aren't already active in your local party, get active. Organize other disgusted dissenters to get active. Why do we care about politics? Because we care about our damned country. So go DO something about it. If your local party has its head in the right place, strengthen it. If it doesn't, take it over if you and your allies are able, or take a lesson from Nelson and Jumpin' Joe and be an effective thorn in the side. If you can't stomach a candidate, don't stay home on election day or break down and vote for the candidate out of party loyalty - write in a vote for the person you wish was the candidate. Will that mean some Democratic candidates will lose? Hell yes. You have to be willing to let it happen, if you want this party to have a soul again. When the Bushies started the war, up sprang buttons and bumper stickers and posters saying "Dissent is Patriotic." Be a goddamned patriot. It doesn't matter whether it's easy, like writing a post about the latest Rethug atrocity, or hard, like looking a DLC cheerleader in the eyes in front of your neighbors and telling her she's so full of crap her eyes are brown.

I'll end this overly long post by urging you to read what is probably Chris Floyd's best column ever, about doing what's right and necessary - http://www.harrysnews.com/tgBrokenLight.htm. Be daring, be dangerous, and remember what it's like to respect yourself in the morning.

[debbierlus]

1. Very, very nice.

Welcome to DU :)

[leftstreet]

2. K&R

Welcome to DU!

[ipaint]

3. Yes, policy over personality. nt

[BeFree]

4. heh

Yeah, sure, easy for you to say.

Try being down in the pits for awhile before pontificating about how to do politics, K?

You write:"Will that mean some Democratic candidates will lose? Hell yes."
Ya know what? In 2000 that was the attitude of just enough 'good' democrats who pissed on Al Gore. And made bushco president.

How's that working out for you? Not good for me. And that IS political reality.

The only way to beat the opposition republicans is to be as united as possible. When party members go their own way the republicans win. Another political bit of reality for you.

IOW, the ones to attack are the the pubbies. Once we have them put away, then we can go about fighting each other without the terrible consequences like we've lived with the last 8 years.

Is that clear? I can repeat it if have to.

[griffi94]

10. disagree

you said when party members go their own way repubs win. what about when the democratic party no longer represents my values. then a win is completely meaningless.
the dems aren't as bad as the gop but that's hardly a glowing reccomendation.
the american people gave obama and congressional dems a mandate to change things, not just scale them back a little bit.

the democrats are not entitled to mine or anybody elses vote. if they want my vote they need to represent my values and while i'm not an idealist and know i won't get everything i want, i do expect a real choice between them and the gop, and not "vote for us, we're mostly like the gop only a little less harsh"

the democrats seem to splinter faster than the gop, but i think it's because democrats are realists. the gop can convince their rank and file to vote against their own best interests by the very simple trick of pointing to the dems and saying "they're for it. you should be against it" i'm not going to vote based on what someone besides myself like or dislikes.
i'm against the senate hcr bill. the fact that the gop opposes it doesn't make it a good bill.
i've avoided specific issues here because there are many, but all you have to do is read thru du and you'll see many people here feel the same way.
it's come to a head over hcr but the issues are many and varied.

[BeFree]

12. Same old shit

We heard this back in 2000 and the dem party lost the presidency just when we had finally turned things around and we were making great progress.

So, 8 years of republican rule ensued. The 'my way or the highway' crew got their wish.

And millions of people got thrown under the bus. Thanks, yall, but f'k that.

You write: "i do expect a real choice between them and the gop,"
Yeah, in 2000 we had a real choice, and you blew it. I say 'you' because I voted for the dem candidate without reservation. 'You' ended up f'king things up for millions of people.

We had a real choice: Bush or Gore. We got Bush.

Yeah, I am pissed. Still.
The political reality of the division still pisses me off.
Don't stand down wind.

[griffi94]

15. well i didn't really blow that one

as i voted for gore. still gore wasn't owed the whitehouse.

it pissed me off at what the bushies did as well and then i noticed that they couldn't have done that much damage without some compliance from the democrats.
examples include iwr, patriot act. had the democrats acted like actual democrats and not the party of "yeah we're for that too" maybe they wouldn't have been locked out for so long.

meaningful change and the advancement of america for every american isn't going to be easy and it's certainly going to piss off the powers that be. as did civil rights and social security. in the case of the civil rights act the dems took a beating for that in the south and the gop still has a stranglehold on southern states so it wasn't politically expediant but it was the right thing to do.
i expect the democrats to do the right thing and not go along to get along because winning an election don't mean squat if you sell your principles in the process.

[BeFree]

17. Gawd, this is tiresome....

"...winning an election don't mean squat....."

Winning the election in 2000 meant a lot of 'squat'.
You keep trying to say it makes no difference. Gawd.

Do you have a clue about that 'Gore lost' political reality?
Is not the history enough of an education?

[griffi94]

18. you're right it is tiresom uphill work

winning or losing 2000 wasn't what fucked us. what fucked us was when the democrats started trying to morph into gop light. a majority of the democrats voted for the iraq war resolution, they had to know it was going to be a shit war and they knew that the rank&file dems were against it....remember those big ole anti war protests, but instead of being a true opposition party they took the same side as the gop only adding that we needed to proceed carefully. same shit with the patriot act. instead of standing up for the constitution the majority voted for it without even reading it first.
so given leaderships stance what difference did it make, thay were for the same thing the gop was for, only just a little bit less.

maybe you have a sports hate thing going on like between the yankees and the red sox, and just can't stand for your side to lose.
when my side starts to look like the gop they're not really representing me anymore so why do i care if they win or not.

[BeFree]

19. Where to start?

your stuff is so full of holes.....

And lacks any cognition of the political realities....

And then you finish yourself off:
"when my side starts to look like the gop they're not really representing me anymore so why do i care if they win or not. "

My side never looked like the gop. When My side lost in 2000 there was hell to pay, and we paid it. And we lost so, so much. Unlike you, I care.

[griffi94]

20. what political reality is it you keep talking about

yes gore lost. yes bush sucked.
bush is gone it's been over 9 years since gore lost. you're not the only one who got screwed by the bush policies. everybody did and yet he got re-elected.

obama won in a landslide last year with a solid mandate and a majority in both the senate and the house. clearly the people wanted change. now it's a year later and many of us feel we're on the wrong track and the obama administartion, instead of bringing change is keeping the status quo
as far as what your side looks like to you, well that's up to you. on the other hand what it looks like to me is up to me.
i care very much what happens. what i don't care about is which party is in power if neither one reflects my values.

if the democrats want to keep the majority and if the president wants to win re-election then it might be a good idea to enact some policies that make the people feel like he's doing them some good. and again that's for each voter to decide for themselves.

i'm not willing to be blamed for the shortcomings of our party leaders. if they ditch their principles and lose an election that's their fault not the voters.

[SteveG]

21. Been there before

You woulda thought that we learned this lesson in 1972, when the purists won the nomination, and we went down to absolute crushing defeat, just as the Republicans did in 1964, when they ran Goldwater. Purity, and an unwillingness to compromise means certain electoral defeat.

[BeFree]

24. Yep

Unfortunately we are not strong enough to have the power needed to reform the country. And we may never. But given the choices of who is in power at any given time, the dems are the ones that we can work with and make progress.

So.... the best we are able to do is work with the dems and work to defeat the pubbies. The reality is that too many of our fellow citizens believe the pubbies. We have no choice but to be dems and work with the dems as best we can.

[SteveG]

37. exactly

What we cannot afford is someone like Tom Colburn, Pawlenty or heaven forbid, Palin, becoming President with a Teabagger majority in Congress... Don't think it can happen? Dream on. Can you imagine Imhoff as head of the EPA? Jebbie B. as Sec. of Education? Think about who Palin might choose as Sec of State, or choose for a SCOTUS nominee. If that doesn't give the left nightmares, I don't know what will.

[bvar22]

26. After the Health Insurance Profit Protection Act passes,

you are going to hear it a lot more.

So, who is at fault?

A "Centrist" Democratic Party that joins with their ideological allies (The Republicans) to shaft Working Americans again?

OR

Those who say,
"You know, I just can't bring myself to vote AGAINST my own economic interests again.
I rather STAND UP for what I believe than to live on my knees begging for a crumb from a Political Party that clearly doesn't give a shit whether I live or die?"


Maybe the "Centrist" Democratic Party leadership is to blame for leaving a huge, sucking vacuum on the Left Wing...like in 2000?
Gore said as much himself in an interview with Jon Stewart.

[BeFree]

27. Yeah, that's right

The centrist dems deserted Gore because he was, wait for it:

Too Liberal!!

And then we had the liberal dems who sat on their thumbs because Gore wasn't liberal enough.

Division = Bush won.

Ya happy? 'Cuz we're headed away from being united like we were a year ago.

[bvar22]

31. No.

Gore WAS vice-president for 8 years.
He stood for the Economic Policies of the Clinton Administration that devastated the Working Class.
NAFTA
GATT
The Telecommunications Act of 1996
MFN status with Communist China
Welfare Reform
DOMA
Don't Ask Don't Tell
Repeal of Glass-Steagall
MORE "privatization and deregulation".

As Vice President, Gore presided over ALL of these things, and many on The Left didn't feel they could support another round of these policies.

AND then there was Joe Lieberman...those of us paying attention already KNEW what a rat he was.

Blaming The Left for NOT supporting a Conservative Administration is NOT the answer.

If at ANY time during the campaign, Gore had looked to The Left and said "I hear your voices. Maybe NAFTA and "Free Trade is not such a good thing for Working Americans."
IF he had said something like THAT just ONCE during his campaign, he would have been president in 2000.

THAT would be a healthy way of looking at 2000.

Instead, go ahead and pretend that the Democratic Party is just peachy for all of those who have been hurt by these policies.
Pretend that the Democratic Party has not lurched to The Right over the last 20 years.
Pretend that the Obama Administration is NOT continuing on that same path.
THEN, you can blame The Left all over again, and NEVER learn that it is about POLICY, not PERSONALITIES.

History WILL repeat.
Learn from it, or you are just wasting time.

I supported the Democratic Ticket in 2000 (as I have for 42 years), but I can't blame those who had had enough.
In the next election, The Democratic Party WILL have to EARN my Liberal vote, and so far, they aren't doing a very good job.

Lets do a quick review:
*WARS fully funded and EXPANDING. Bill sent to our children….

*Trillion Dollars given to friends and campaign contributors on Wall Street. No Strings Attached...

*Military Spending INCREASED.

*Trillion+ Dollars given to the Health Insurance Industry. Easily Avoidable, symbolic only strings attached....almost Accomplished!


*Force all Americans to buy invisible products from For Profit Corporations who produce nothing tangible and create no wealth..... almost Accomplished!

*Kill the possibility for a REAL "Public Option" or REAL Universal Health Care for at least another generation, and begin the “Entitlement Reform” defunding of Medicare (-$500 Billion).... almost Accomplished!

*Block ANY REAL re-regulation of BIG BANKS and Credit Cards....

*Protect the Bush War Criminals and Torturers from JUSTICE....

*Throw the GBLTs under the bus and expand "faith based" initiatives....

*Reinforce the worst Police State provisions of the Patriot Act...

*Protect the very richest. Tell the Working Class that they CAN WILL compete with 3rd World Slave Labor for their jobs..

*EFCA (Employee Free Choice Act) killed in the crib..

*More Anti-LABOR "Free Trade"... almost Accomplished!

*Jobless Recovery....

*The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party SHUT OUT of the Obama Administration…..

*Accelerate the destruction of Public Education..

*Bury next generation under such a debt burden that they will never be able to afford any social or economic programs that will benefit their Working Class....almost Accomplished.

No.
I don't believe I can schlep my way to the polls again to vote for MORE of THIS.

Of Course, YOU are free to do as wish.
Ironic, but I blame people like YOU for the current problems inside the Democratic Party.
If they could NOT count on you to keep voting for them regardless of HOW they sell you out, we wouldn't be in such bad shape.

[BeFree]

33. There you go again..

..ascribing to me beliefs that I do not hold.

What is it that makes you think you have that right?

And... you say:
"I blame people like YOU for the current problems inside the Democratic Party"

Thanks for your heart-warming collegiality, it gives me a warm feeling inside.
Not really, it makes me want to distance myself from you, actually.

Especially since you are so wrong. And since your attitude allowed Bush to win. I mean, c'mon, your attitude didn't help Gore win, did it? Sure Gore was VP. But if you noticed he did distance himself from Clinton and it wasn't just because of the blue dress. Gore didn't like a lot of what Clinton did, but he had sense enough to not destroy the party from within. He held his tongue, smartly.

Like I say, your type of mental masturbation drives people away from the dems and from being leftist, not because of what you say but the delivery mechanism. You give a good clue as to why some people say to kill the messenger. Your messaging sucks, big time. And to think there was a time when I thought you were pretty sharp.

I admit, I was wrong about you.

[JoeyT]

39. So let me see if I understand your argument.

You're blaming people for voting for someone that would actually represent them because they cost you someone that would've represented you? Is that how this works?

I keep hearing "We don't need progressives to win elections!" alternated with "Progressives cost Gore the presidency!". Which is it?

What the OP seems to be objecting to most strongly are the very Democrats that allowed Bush to run an imperial presidency by refusing to take a stand on *anything*. As much fun as it is to blame Bush (and as much as he deserves it), he couldn't have done most of it without Democrats on his side. At least until it became obvious he was becoming extremely unpopular. Even then most of them refused to grow spines and actually fight him.

By the way, most of what seems to be driving people away from being leftists is the right wing policies implemented in our name.
Ask most people what they hate most about liberals and the most common response, by FAR is "NAFTA." Which wasn't a liberal policy at all. Of course that's being overtaken by the corporate bailouts and corporate welfare lately. Which aren't exactly liberal ideas either.
So who's doing that again?

[bvar22]

50. "I admit, I was wrong about you."

Also WRONG about everything else you have posted in this thread.

Hey. A perfect score!
:party:

[sabrina 1]

59. The message does suck, but I can't find anything in it

that isn't true, can you? I don't blame you though. The people cannot be blamed when their government, whom they trust, lies to them.

I don't know what can be done to stop the corporate influence on our system of government. As long as that persists the people will lose more and more of a say in how our government ought to work for us.

The only way is to elect people who will not succumb to the bribes of Big Business, more people like Bernie Sanders. But it's a catch 22 as we need money to do that. The two major parties will outspend any challengers to the status quo. So, I'm lost and waiting for someone smarter than me to come up with a solution.

[BeFree]

61. Er

The message sucks, but yes, it was truthful. What I object to is the messaging, ie, the way it is thrown at me like shit as if it was supposed to stick to me. F that.

And where do we go from here? Good question. I do know that if we quit flinging shit at each other and instead fling it at our enemies, we will get somewhere sooner. That poster flinging at me is part of the problem, I don't care to be around people like that and people like that have alienated lots of curious outsiders. And we need the outsiders to be working with us if we are to bring real change.

[sabrina 1]

63. Well, I agree with you. I am not in favor of the kind of dialogue

that alienates rather than tries to find solutions even when those 'flinging shit' are on my side. Which is why I said that I, at least, did not blame you as the other commenter claimed to do.

Where do we to from here? I don't know, but what I do know is that as long as we, most of whom basically agree on the major issues, are fighting with each other, we cannot be effective, as you said. Sometimes it's just because everyone is so frustrated. Like you I react also instead of being pro-active. It's hard not to do.

I don't know if we would agree on everything, but I'm sure there are things we do agree on and it should be possible to talk about those things we differ on without getting personal. I agree with you that alienating people is wrong and accomplishes nothing. Anyhow, thanks for your response :-)

[Hannah Bell]

58. "great progress" = nafta, telecom act, welfare "reform," bubble economy. sure.

[BeFree]

60. Yeah

Well, relative to what bushco did, yes great. Which is my point.
The fact that Gore wasn't 'enough' for lot of democrats, left and center, led to us having bush for 8 years, instead of Gore. Yes, Gore actually won.

Back then I saw the clear difference between the parties and the two men.
But there were lots of people that didn't, so we got Bush.

As for progress... DoD budgets going down. No wars started. Family leave. Deficits being controlled. etc.

Was it perfect? No? Was there, relative to 8 bush years progress?
Hell f'n yes. And Gore would have been even better.

Hard to believe you'd argue against that, but here you are, eh?

[Le Taz Hot]

45. Where do I begin?

Let's start with your revisionist history:

"In 2000 that was the attitude of just enough 'good' democrats who pissed on Al Gore. And made bushco president."

Bushco became president due to massive amounts of election fraud cheating in Florida (and other places), where his brother happened to be governor at the time AND Tammy Faye Harris, Florida Election Commissioner, who needs to go into the Guiness Book of World Records for Most Corrupt Election Official in history. And we won't even start on the Diebold machines. As icing on the cake, we had/have an extremely corrupt SC filled with idiotic partisans who have no business being on the (Court) and which MOST Democrats VOTED TO CONFIRM.

AND . . .

May I remind you that the ENTIRE MEMBERSHIP of the Congressional Black Caucus stood on the steps of the Senate demanding justice and NOT ONE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR would take up the case. Not one.

Other reasons for Gore's loss: HE PICKED MOTHERFUCKING JOE LIEBERMAN AS HIS RUNNING MATE! He listened to the DLC's "wisdom" and Lieberman was THEIR choice. He further listened to the DLC's "wisdom" and completely ignored states in which he COULD have been competitive.

Partisans are useful tools -- they do the dirty work, in most cases FOR FREE -- to keep the monied interests in power and keep US begging for crumbs. Fuck that. If you want to continue to be a useful tool, that is your privilege but don't expect those of us capable of independent thought to go along.

[BeFree]

62. And now...

....I get called a 'useful tool' . Gee, thanks. After all the shit I take from the pubbies and the PTB, someone who I am supposed to be aligned with calls me a useful tool of my enemies. Gawd!!

Remember this, Ms. Hot?
"There is no difference between republicans and democrats."
Now that was a useful tool used to divide and conquer us.
Mainly because of that, and who said it, Bush became the president. Gore didn't.

But you forgot that, eh? Those of us capable of independent thought have not forgotten who said it and the damage it caused.

[silverweb]

51. +1

It's kind of like putting on your own oxygen mask first because if you're dead or incapacitated, you can't help anyone else.

For the Dems to stand on ideology to the point of being willing to lose elections is suicidal and just plain stupid.

We can't accomplish anything if we allow the reTHUGs to put us back in the closet, like they quite literally did during the early Bush2 years.

[napi21]

5. The real game is to WIN! Principals are important, but if you

don't win anything principals don't do much for you, do they? I believe it's important to get your nose under the tent, so to speak, and then fight for more! Teddy did exactly what you are suggesting when he was fighting for HC with Nixon. He stood on principal and got nothing. Even Teddy admitted later that it was a big mistake!

[Le Taz Hot]

46. And there it is . . .

". . . principals don't do much for you . . ."

Actually, principles define who I am and set me apart from blind partisans . . . thank the goddess.

[JAbuchan08]

48. I guess we're at an impasse then

If we stand on principle and lose we gain nothing, and if we abandon our principles to win we gain nothing.

Personally I think it's a bit of a myth that principled opposition equals extremist policies and an automatic loss, but if that *is* true it's a lose lose situation for Democrats liberals and progressives.

[silverweb]

52. Yup.

I reiterated that in my other post (#51).

[amborin]

6. K&R

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. We have to make them come to us for our votes. If they want them they have to earn them.

We've been giving them our votes by default as the "Not as Bad" Party. In return for our forbearance and nose holding we got the shaft and are looked upon as irrelevant.

As long as we continue to give them a pass due to the threat of "You'll just get a Republican", they'll continue to go after the middle.

That dimes worth of difference has shrunk to "spare change".

[phasma ex machina]

8. "What is the real game?" I dunno. Maximizing one's own ego trip through DC's halls of power? nt

[Cleita]

9. Thanks for injecting some reality in among the

all the back patting and declarations of how everything really is going to be all right.

:thumbsup:

[WeDidIt]

11. Most politically naive post of 2009. n/t

[madfloridian]

13. Oh goody the "naive" thingy again.

[BeFree]

14. It was naive

...and lacking any real sense of political reality.

It was merely "My way, or the highway" and with that attitude in mind we look back over the last 8 years and see how many got thrown under the bus.

Gore vs Bush. We got bushed. That is the reality that followed the dem party division of 2000. Enough!! Too much!! Just stop it!!

[Dream Girl]

25. Yep. Naive...it really is about the "lesser of two evils"

Sorry to say, if you don't get that you end up with eight years of George W. Bush. How soon they forget...

[JAbuchan08]

49. So let me get this straight...

The center can't be bothered to make any concessions to the "left" (whatever the hell that even means anymore), yet when we don't vote for them because they don't represent us it's our fault that they lose.

Funny how they can't seem to pick up the necessary votes from the center they're always running to and so they are forced to make progressive noises (a la 2008) so they can get elected.

Funny how, as milquetoast and inoffensive as he was in general, Obama won by making appeals to progressive populism. Of course he made his statements intentionally vagues so he could walk back all that "hope" and "change" talk once he got elected, but it was there and its what won him the election.

[FrenchieCat]

16. Right......Now's the time!

[fascisthunter]

22. Don't You Fools Realize that Accepting Fascist Policies from our own Democrats

is different from the GOP. Sheesh! :sarcasm:

[TheWatcher]

41. How many times do I have to tell you, Mr. Hunter?

When OUR Football Team does it, it's OK.

When THEIR Football team does it, we have to be upset and indignant, and ONLY then.

What about "life is like an NFL Rivalry and everything therein must be treated as such" don't you get?

Now, Watch three American Idol episodes and call me in the morning.

And if you need to, watch a box set of '24' while you're at it, if it will help you get your head straight.

Any set after season 2 will do.

Sheesh, kids these days.

[Kltpzyxm]

23. Amen

This is no high school popularity contest. This is real life.

What kills me, is polls CONSISTENTLY show that real democratic values are wildly popular, yet these DLC sellouts keep ramming the Patriot Act, et al down this country's throat.

[Individualist]

28. K&R

[Truth2Tell]

29. Great post! K&R

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[Thickasabrick]

30. K&R - Screw our corporate masters!!! nt

[treestar]

32. Politics should not be about idealism ever

That would end in violence and civil war.

[JoeyT]

40. Uh huh.

That's why idealism has been behind nearly every good thing that ever happened in this country.
Or do you think fence sitters and hand wringers ended slavery, created social programs, fought for civil rights, ended the great depression, etc?

[shadesofgray]

34. K&R.

[Vidar]

35. K&R.

[merkins]

36. K&R Bravo Daemonaquila !

[WonderGrunion]

38. Your "lost battle" is about to result in

30 million American's gaining health insurance. Keep on losing lefties. While you strive for the perfect and ideological purity, we'll not let you become the enemy of the good and we will continue to ACHIEVE things for the poor and downtrodden in this country.

[JoeyT]

42. And in the meantime

You've forced the country to bail out corporations that screwed us, Wall Street who also screwed us, pharmaceutical/health insurance companies that've been screwing us for years, and in doing so racking up a ridiculous amount of debt in programs that didn't really accomplish anything other than making the rich and powerful more rich and more powerful. You've also managed to let the right wingers define well to the right of center as socialism so if they manage to regain power they can get down to some real hardcore fascism. You've also continued torture, continued attacks on civil rights, continued attacks on the constitution, continued attacks on the middle class, and are trying to privatize anything you can get your hands on. (Edited to add: I almost forgot. Continued the war on drugs, and continued to give ridiculous amounts of money to private contractors that should've long since been jailed. You know, like Blackwater, Lockheed, KB&R, etc. While hurling actual groups that do real good under the biggest and ugliest bus you could find. You know, like ACORN.)

Then somehow it'll be the fault of liberals when actual independents/moderates can't tell the difference between the two parties and can't be bothered to show up and vote. You know, just like the last time.

[WonderGrunion]

43. You know, when the Titanic hit an iceberg

Nobody said "Don't get into any lifeboats, after all it was a boat that got us into this mess". Sometimes you have to bring everyone safely to shore first, then you can insure there will be no more Titanics on the sea. Almost everything else you've described requires action by CONGRESS before the President can sign anything. You act like the fact that you've cast one vote for a Democrat (Obama) that you've done all the heavy lifting in politics. If you want to change politics, start going to your local monthly party meetings. Start at the local level and then you control the party when it chooses who gets nominated at the national level. That's how the Reich Wingers took control of the Republic party.

I'd address all your individual assertions, but they are so filled with hyperbole and mis-characterization to make it pointless to even enter discussion with you.

[JoeyT]

47. That's an accurate comparison.

After all, didn't most of the people on the Titanic drown?

You act like you know what I've done in politics. I manned phones, donated, and knocked on doors to get Democrats elected. What have YOU done?

"I'd address all your individual assertions, but they are so filled with hyperbole and mis-characterization to make it pointless to even enter discussion with you."
You could've easily shortened that to "I have no argument. Rah Rah team D!".

[sabrina 1]

56. What you meant to say was that those 30 million poor people will now

be forced to buy insurance from a corrupt private industry that caused most of the problems with our health care system in the first place. Since most of them ARE poor, to comply with this law, they will buy the cheapest 'product' available. The co-pays on what they buy will make it impossible for them use that product when they most need it.

And if they don't or can't buy it, the IRS will go after them and make sure they pay their corporate overlords.

But that's progress for a country where the citizens are so indoctrinated and beaten down that they don't believe they have the right to what citizens of other civilized countries take for granted.

Having a compliant, apathetic citizenry who don't expect much from their government is very important to a corporate state.

Starting off with a compromise, and then compromising on the compromises doesn't look like victory for anyone but the Industry that already betrayed the trust placed in them, costing many lives, who have now been guaranteed they will run the Health Care system once again, until we 'fix it'. We have a habit in this country of rewarding failure. And far too many citizens who excuse it, depending on which team they are rooting for. It's a perfect climate for conmen to operate in.

[Dragonfli]

57. Fining the poor for being poor does not help them, strange that you think it does.

[Le Taz Hot]

44. K & R

Before the partisan posse shows up.

Nevermind -- they got here WAAAY before I did. Nightshift.

[Land Shark]

53. Amen. Lincoln said some principles may and MUST BE inflexible. nt

[Greyhound]

54. As The Party continues to stand for nothing but winning elections,

they lose their identity and relegate themselves to the role of "not republik". Then they are surprised when they are rejected.
:kick: & R

[Odin2005]

55. K&R! No more capitulation to corporatists!

:yourock:

[AdHocSolver]

64. It is easy to explain why the Democratic PARTY is abandoning liberals and moving to the right.

The Democratic Party leadership is abandonimg progressives, liberals, and labor unions in order to convince the wealthy and the corporations to switch their support from the Republican Party to the Democratic Party.

The Republican Party is splintering and is being taken over by goofballs like Sarah Palin and religious crazies. A majority of conservatives and moderates are becoming disillusioned with the Republican Party.

Since the Republicans have already made the winning of elections based primarily on how much money you have to spend, which candidates the corporate-controlled media promotes, and which candidates are favored by the corporations who control the voting machines, the Democratic Party is working hard to prove to the corporate powers-that-be that it is in their interest to switch support and campaign donations from Republicans to Democrats.

The Democrat Party will deliver what the corporations want. Progressive Democrats like Howard Dean, who want what is best for the American people, have to be muzzled, or they will ruin the sales pitch to big business and the right-wing religious fanatics.

The Democratic Party leadership is telling big business and religious right-wingers "The Democratic Party will deliver whatever you want, less a few crumbs to our moderate and liberal constituents, so give us your support and your millions, instead of the Republicans, and we will do your bidding."