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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:06 AM
Original message
He's not playing chess.
They will pass an insurance/big pharma giveaway bill and call it reform. Those of us who can't afford private insurance will be fined. People will die.

And Obama will claim it as a victory, as part of his legacy. This is the "change" he promised. The "hope" part was just to get us to contribute to his campaign.
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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. So you believe this bill that we are getting was Obama's actual goal?
That he failed on purpose?

Bryant
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I believe one thing, if they wanted a good bill they would use reconciliation. Why won't they? /nt
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. They say they can't get the reforms in reconciliation (pre-existing conditions, etc).
I think this bill is bullshit and should be killed.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Funny, what support are they looking for? The insurance companies? /nt
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. They can't use reconciliation until something is passed
Right now, nothing is getting past the asshole Lieberman.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. I didn't know that, thanks /nt
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. That could very well be true actually!
Also, failure is just a matter of perspective and position. The fact is that passing a very weak bill could be considered a victory by many including Obama. One thing is certain, whatever passes will be hailed as a great victory when in fact it will not be anything close.
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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Who is going to hail it as a victory?
It seems like the liberal base is opposed to it and the conservative base will hate it as well (as they would any bill even remotely connected to Obama).
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Sadly, the majority of people in this country are neither the liberal or right-wing base
Sucks, but this is how it's been for many, many years.
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el_bryanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. So they will be pleased with this bill even with Conservatives and Liberals lamblasting it?
I mean i know that there are plenty of moderates and apolitical people out there, but that doesn't mean they don't hear what the two sides shout.

I suppose they could come to the conclusion that if both sides hate it, it must be good.

Bryant
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. They'll surely hate it when they get socked for shitty mandatory underinsurance n/t
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Here's to hoping this will force them to fix the affordability later
Once people are forced onto insurance, it would be wrong to kick them off, so they'll have to make it affordable.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. Problem is, the rich men in the senate have no concept of something
as basic as insurance being 'unaffordable'.

If someone is paying a $6000 monthly mortgage, he's not likely to see that $900/mo for insurance is unaffordable. It's not even on his radar. They pass a bill that cuts that $900 to $800 and call it a good job.

Depending on the rich men to make something affordable to the middle class is the ultimate in pie-in-the-sky.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Last night there was a caller to Mike Malloy's show
whose wife was recently diagnosed with breast cancer. They are both self employed and have health insurance that costs $700/month. But its "catastrophic" insurance with a $10K deductible. They have to spend $6K more this month to get any costs covered this year. When Jan 1 starts they have to spend $10K. These people are not counted as uninsured. But even with insurance they are going to spend a lot of money. This is the kind of situation a lot of people are going to be in.
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. what is the cost to those that have to pay?
I've heard that it's going to be $857.00, but is that a month???? Gauddammmint, that's two weeks take home. There is no way this onethatcares could afford to pay that without starving myself, my family, the dog and the vehicles.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #28
48. Like hell they will. We are nothing but disposable human garbage to them n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. Yes, most of us are to the left of the liberals
Which is why so many don't even bother to vote.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Obama thinks any bill will do.
And the less it pisses off the corporate cash stations, the better.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. Obama is looking for a bill, any bill for political gain.
Whatever he may have wanted, he stood by on the sidelines and watched it become a shitty bill.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. This is why he's called a messiah and his followers cultists:
Everything good is his doing, and nothing bad is ever his fault, just like "God". Despite a corporatist and calculated legislative record, he's depicted to be the great vox populi and shining light of the common man. Not only are his allegiances too much with the power elites, his will to actually risk something and make a specific stand is effectively nonexistent.

Hiding behind Congress, he gives himself plausible deniability, while standing poised to take credit for anything good that happens and distance himself from anything bad, while fully willing to misrepresent any hack-job chicanery as a great achievement. Meanwhile, he ambles on in his amiable way currying favor and carefully crafting policy that is pathologically ultramoderate, and thus doomed to not really please anyone, and certainly not work. This is showbiz writ big, and if some sense isn't screamed into him by a few people with some ethics, he'll never learn anything and never know what hit him as he winds up being swept away into the dustbin of history.

No, I don't think that he wanted to fail to make it look like he tried, and I don't think the thread starter thinks this either. It's actually sort of worse than that: it seems to be playing the field with an intent to get something passed, but with the prime concern to seem personally virtuous.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. I place blame squarely on the Senate.
Obama didn't help - even kind of enabled this clusterfuck of a process - and didn't set very high standards. But all the barriers came from the Senate. They are the broken axle in our Democracy.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Obama set the stage for a clusterfuck, by not laying out the terms and fighting for them.
Turning it over to Max Baucus?

:puke:
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Its like a parent with a handful fighting screaming kids.
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 10:17 AM by undeterred
He stands in the doorway and says, "you folks work it out by the time I get back, ok?"
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. He should have started at Single Payer (HR676 - a 27 page bill), and negotiated from there.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. True the obstacles came from the Senate. However, there was no shortage of stories from the jump
about Rahm beating on the progressives and insulting the left leaning groups fighting for PO. Did you see one hint, one leak, one whisper of anyone in this administration having any heart to hearts or dust ups with any Blue Dogs to push this bill back to the left. At each stage this bill became more of a blow job for the insurance industry. And, still, not one iota of an indication. Not one even mildly worded statement about Joe's obstructionism. Just Rahm, same as it every was, pushing the legislators to cave to the industry friendly obstructionists. Yeah, I tried to believe the reports, early on, were inaccurate. The results, however, speak for themselves. I wish one progressive would stand up and threaten to filibuster a bill without more help for the people. Of course, then we would see a Senator called to task for obstructionism.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. No doubt everyone had a role...
but in the end, if Congress handed Obama a bill with a strong PO, he would've signed it.

Can't say the same for a majority of the Senate.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Perhaps but the administration did not intervene to get any of the conservatives on board with PO
and they did intervene to get the progressives to cave on it.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
11. Sadly, even the "people will die" is not supported as 150,000 - 440,000 will NOT die
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 10:23 AM by HughMoran
...because of this bill based on Ezra Klein's words & other analysis. As much as this bill sucks, it will save tens of thousands of lives - let's not pour the false rhetoric on too heavy. Yes, more will die than would with a better bill, but this bill will still help many thousands of Americans get insurance.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Insurance premiums going to get more expensive, not less.
There is no force to make the price go down... how does that work out to more people being insured with insurance they can actually afford to use?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. It's required. People will be angry. Separate bills will be passed to make it affordable
It's not the "right" way to do this, but it does set the ball into motion.

I'm not happy - I'm very angry, but I'm also trying to keep some perspective though it all.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. Separate bills will be passed to make it affordable
Forgive me but is this yet another carrot dangling in front of us to stifle opposition to this industry blow job of a bill?
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. ...and NAFTA will be renegotiated! And your children won't be living in feudalism! and...
more lies.

...and I remember when we were told we needed a veto-proof majority...
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. Yes...because the Democrats have such a good track record....
...of going back and "fixing it later".....not.

They said the same thing about NAFTA, the Patriot Act, and every other piece of shitty legislation they have co-signed.

"We'll go back and fix it later" = biggest LIE told in Washington.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. The vast majority of people without insurance don't have it because they
can't afford it. How does making it mandatory make it any more affordable?

The only mandate is that people MUST buy insurance - there is no mandate that insurance companies pay off when claim are filed, which means people will STILL avoid going to the doctor, people will STILL be thrown into bankruptcy, and people will STILL die for lack of money. Without a public option, a Medicare for all, the bill in nothing but a giveaway to the insurance companies. AND those companies will be free to do whatever the fuck they want with premiums, AND nothing takes effect for years, which gives them years to screw with the pricing BEFORE it goes into effect.

If the bill passes, and we don't get fixes in immediately, the entire system will melt down within 15 years. I guarantee it.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
43. Who?
Yeah, I've been reading your silly posts! Please explain who exactly will be helped by the latest bill?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Ezra Klein is the fellow who was on Keith Olbermann last night.
"Ezra Klein doesnt want this bill (such as it is) to fail because even in its present form, hundreds of thousands of lives will be saved."
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. He's playing three card monte,
and has been since the beginning. It's just that more people are beginning to catch on now.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
15. I think we should all be relieved they won't need our campaign contributions for 2012
They have insured the industry campaign contributions take care of them for the reelection campaign. I read, early in the debate, that Rahm was pushing to kill public option and make sure the industry was happy with the bill. The article said he was looking to make sure the industry campaign contributions would go to Democrats. I did not want to believe this. I wanted to believe President Obama was really fighting for reform for the American people. I believed Rahm was fighting progressives but always thought if he went too far in gutting the real reforms in the bill President Obama would rein him in. After watching this for many months, I can't help but conclude this is exactly the bill they wanted to wind up with. I think 60 votes in the Senate was an inconvenience for them because it made it more difficult for them to cover their tracks. I think if Joe was not doing the bidding of the Administration, at this point, we would have seen some kind of harsh words coming out of the White House. There has been no shortage of leaks about Rahm's insults hurled at progressives or his battering of the progressive caucus to cave. I have looked for and not found one story of anyone in the White House pressuring the Blue Dogs. Not one. I know we don't know everything but this has been a pretty leaky administration and I do believe had their been any fight there from the other side of the debate we would have seen some hint of it. We have not. As I have seen here in another post recently, the president was playing chess. We were just mistaken as to who he was playing against.
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itsrobert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
19. He is playing chess. Except his opponent is the American People.
He never was on our team.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. Checkmate.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
21. +10,000!!!..you got it!! eom
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
26. Why did Obama put Lieberman back in power after the election?
I know Obama was a warm and fuzzy bi-partisan after the election (although Dems warned him).. but after Lieberman had stabbed him in the back.. it's just amazing that Obama let this happen?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. They are old friends,
which makes sense now that Obama has revealed himself to be nothing more than a younger, hipper Joe Lieberman.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
46. Obama hasn't been around long enough to have "old friends"
from the Senate.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
36. "Why did Obama put Lieberman back in power "
..because his Corporate bosses at the DLC told him to.

The same reason Obama gave Wall Street a TRILLION Dollars no strings attached.

The same reason Obama is going to give the Health Insurance Cartel a TRILLION Dollars.

The same reason Obama expanded the WARS and INCREASED Military spending.

The same reason Obama gave the Bush Administration a FREE PASS on War Crimes and Torture.

The same reason EFCA was dropped down the "Memory Hole" on day one.

The same reason Obama will expand "Free Trade".

The same reason "Entitlement Reforms" is next on the chopping Block.

The same reason Howard Dean was banished after the election.


"By their works you will know them."



The DLC New Team
Working Class Democrats need not apply.

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)


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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
40. And this slimy shit has Rahm Emanuel's filthy hand prints all over it....
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 01:05 PM by LaPera
just playing politics for image...fuck the people...just please the corporations as is the DLC motto and get this weaken, watered-down shit bill passed, and call it "REFORM".

While making this pile of shit bill the center of Obama's State of the Union Address next month and Rahm feels he's done his job and it's been a success and their on their way to 2012.

Fuck the people who are truly hurting & dying.

To this administration it's obvious it's was never about the people, they've never counted, Just a bill - any bill so say they got reform....it's so disheartening, that's all they were playing to...No wonder why obama never got behind a strong public option, and played along with the republican & Snowe & Lieberman when all Obama really wanted was a bill, any bill, a symbol...

Even if the bill does nothing to stop the insurance companies monopoly & greed, health care for obscene profits....just about image, something to parade around as victory...as we'll see again & again, uh (Afghanistan) pretending to be tough, playing to image, just getting the image & spin down to re-election 2012.

Fuck the people...that's not what matters or how to go about it.

This DLC cocksucker Emanuel should be strung up!
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
42. If he is, it's a stale mate, not a check mate.
I can't believe our party leaders have blown such a huge lead this year and rendered health care reform yet another industry marketing program.

Our health care costs are NOT going down. They're going up. The problem of insurance companies deciding who gets what kind of care, or whether they get care at all, will continue.
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change_notfinetuning Donating Member (750 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
44. Wake up, Barack! You can't win by only taking pawns! n/t
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