Alec Baldwin is a human being. And he's a good, decent human being.

[shance]

Of course he has been a vocal individual brave enough, caring enough, and COMPASSIONATE enough to confront the Administration and even other agencies who remain unaccountable.

Don't believe me?

Read his articles at Huffington post.

And of course what happens to those who oppose anyone in the Administration or those who can hide behind an agency?

They are watched, stalked and eventually, with any vulnerable slip up, are set up in any way possible.

That is the case here, as it is in so many other cases of primarily those trying to address the truth in the wrong doing happening in our country.

This obviously makes Alec a target.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

Just look at all the others they've pointed their guns at.

That's how they work. That's what they do. Look at the leaders we've lost because of these type individuals.

They inflict harm and try and destroy anyone who gets in their way.

Either literally or figuratively.

If YOU have been their target, then of course you know this.

We all have said things we wished we had not, especially towards those who we care about the most.

It is no secret that the Baldwin/Bassinger divorce has been a challenging, volatile one - what's new about a divorce being volatile, especially when there was any amount of passion involved? All I have to do is look back to my own parents and remember their marriage all too well. I actually believe the question lies much more on the one who GRANTED this recording than the one who said it. There was no threat, however there was anger and obviously hurt and pain behind it.

This of course could not have been made public, if it had not been for sadly an angry vendictive, rejected ex spouse.

Who else would have released that tape?

I was a child once, and I know how we can act even in trying to protect one of our parents who we may believe needs protecting.

There is much, like SO MANY things coming from our misleading media, we are not being told.

Something to consider......

[grasswire]

1. I heart Alec Baldwin

Things will be so much better for him when this girl turns 18. I hope he can be calm, be present, be the adult, and remember it's only six more years until the issue of custody will be gone.

[lligrd]

2. Apparently Progessives Have To Be Perfect

While criminal, corrupt, incompetent Regressives are allowed to be President.

[Honeycombe8]

28. There's something in between perfect and corrupt, isn't there?

Like a decent human being who makes some mistakes? This behavior goes beyond that, IMO.

But it has no bearing on his political statements, which I'll cont. to listen to and read. My opinion of his character has changed, though.

The reds are laughing tonight. And Baldwin has only himself to blame. He should get into anger management classes ASAP.

[lligrd]

36. I Judge A Man By Deeds Not Words

and Baldwin has done far more good than even most of us on DU.

[Honeycombe8]

53. A man's words ARE his deeds, aren't they?

They can't be separated.

That was the argument against Imus, wasn't it? Even though he did all this good, raising multiple millions of dollars for charities, and supporting autism legal issues with Congressmen and so forth....all of that was wiped out by his words. Correct? On the basis that words do harm?

[Big Pappa]

And the truth shall set you free!

Spot on. BTW welcome.

[lligrd]

61. Not For Me

For you maybe.

[shance]

71. Really? Like the Iraq war is a "success"?

Words are just that, words.

[Honeycombe8]

82. You made my point exactly. Saying that the IW is a success IS a deed...

a bad deed. As you just pointed out.

And although the initial poster meant well in pointing out that Baldwin is a human being...that's a bit ironic, since one of the things he yelled at an 11 year old girl was that she is NOT a human being.

Some things are NOT okay. Yelling at a child that she's a pig is not okay. Ever. Under any circumstance. Ipso facto. End of story.

The fact that he did it twice...then yelled other things....then said some things that imply there's going to be a physical altercation....well, the WORDS speak for themselves. Words do harm. Words show character. Words create results. Words have consequences. Ask Imus.

[lligrd]

87. Not At All

Invading Iraq was a deed. Saying it was a success was a lie. Which was worse? I think the invasion and the killings that have occurred because of it are worse.

[happydreams]

156. I do to, but women on the other hand....

should be seen and not heard. :evilgrin:

[Little Wing]

3. wow

I'm suddenly even more glad I don't have tv

[live love laugh]

154. .

[Big Pappa]

4. First.

I will agree that whoever released that tape was an ass. But, no one forced Baldwin to belittle his child in such a way. I mean he is the adult here right? I think that entire family needs major therapy.

[poverlay]

47. You are talking about the most emotionally charged relationship in the most difficult and

emotionally charged setting knkown to human relationships. I have a wonderful relationship with my 12 yo whom I adore and she can still be the meanest little demon-bitch-hellspawn I've ever seen. While I've carefully nurtured that quality in her over the years and often delight in it, it can be breathtakingly painful when it's turned on you in its strongest and most malicious aspect.

In short, Mr Baldwin deserves the benefit of the doubt if not understanding.
In the absence of more information I'm saving my censure for the greatest and most immediate influence in the girl's life: the mother.

[Tinksrival]

187. As the mother of two teenage daughters........

you said that perfectly. When they hit twelve and those hormones kicked in, well their poor Dad could do nothing right.
I had to dress them down far worse than Alec did for how they treated him. It's a difficult time for sure and it takes a lot of patients cause it can last for years!
The girls are now 17 and 18 and it's been back to "Dad can do no wrong" .
They got smart and figured how to wrap him around their little fingers! :evilgrin:

[poverlay]

188. OH no kidding. My 12yo can play me like a harp when she puts her mind to it.

I don't think she knows exactly how she does it just yet, but I can not resist those big blue ones! :nopity:

Once she figures it out, I'm done for.
As several of the other posters apparently don't understand, the emotional pain she can put me through at times is definitely the worst I've ever experienced. Bar none.

I'll look forward to that 17 to 18 range.

Thanks

[uppityperson]

5. Alec Baldwin is a human being. To err is human. To acknowledge and take responsibility by DOING...

something is a really good thing.

[silverojo]

14. To err is human, true...

But to leave an angry message like that on someone's voicemail -- esp. when you KNOW a bitter ex and the Repukes are just waiting for something to pounce on -- is sheer stupidity at its worst.

It's similar to how Bill & Hillary knew about the "vast right-wing conspiracy", yet Bill stupidly didn't keep it in his pants.

Alec, Alec, did you not learn from this? :(

[aquart]

52. Has he done that?

It breaks my heart to hear that tape, to hear the alcoholic repetitions in his speech. He is a talented man who thinks just as he ought on many subjects, but it's obvious he's a mean drunk. I'm so sorry for his family, and dismayed that he hasn't been able to recover from this. I hope he will.

[MadBadger]

6. Here is the problem

We dont know Alec Baldwin, so how can we make a statement on him being a decent person? Just because you agree with him politically, doesnt make him a good guy.

[Ava]

7. right you are

political views do not make a person a good or bad human being. he treated his child like dirt - that's not ok in my book.

[Duppers]

83. agreed.

Baldwin is a mean drunk and that's never to be excused, especially if the wrath is aimed at demeaning a child---not just scolding or punishing them, but DEMEANIG them.

Never ok.

[shance]

10. That goes both ways of course Hnm. How can we demonize someone on a soundbite?

On an angry outburst when there have been YEARS leading up to this.

Let me reiterate, there was nothing malevolent in this outburst. It was a PARENT. An angry, hurt parent.

That is all we know, other than the fact that Alec Baldwin has suited and shown up for his country in addressing the issues created by this Administration.

Have to add, haven't seen Ms. Bassinger doing the same. Well, I take that back. She has been an advocate for animals which I heartily applaud.

Any which way you look at this in my opinion, its a set up. It doesn't reveal the entire picture and reality of what happens in divorce and frankly, how some parents can play their own kids against the other parent.

It happens all too often.

[MadBadger]

13. You are right that it does play both ways in the fact that we dont know him as a person

But I disagree with the assertion that what he said wasnt bad. WHat he said is awful and no parent should utter that to the young child. I talk to my parents today about that, to see if I was overreacting, and they were just as appalled as I was.

[shance]

26. Have you ever said anything that you later regretted Hnm? I'd wager if you're a human

you've said things you wished you could take back.

However, unlike Mr. Baldwin, I bet you weren't then placed on EVERY channel on the networks blaring that mistake you had made for everyone to see and place their self-righteous judgement upon. How would you feel if you'd made a choice, that again I will reiterate was not in any way malevolent in intent but simply reflective of being hurt and/or even perhaps being manipulated in some way? Again WE DON'T know the background. We simply have no place to judge unfairly, because we have only been given what the "mainstream media" has wanted to feed us.

All we get is the accusation and the character assassination. Because that is the agenda. To accuse and declare guilty.

Look at it this way.

What he did caused some short term pain. We've all been kids, and we know how resilient we are.

Look at the long term damage being inflicted by this Administration on thousands of families and thousands of deaths.

Now YOU tell me what is more important to be airing to the public.

[MadBadger]

32. Just like I cant, you also cannot speak for the well being of this child.

[shance]

46. Nor can you. Look at the incident. That is all you have Hnm.

That is all any of us have.

And with that, I think we can conclude a negative comment is in any way life threatening*******

If that were true, my blessed parents with all their gifts, would have done me in ages ago!

;)

[MadBadger]

51. Nobody is saying what he said is life threatening. But that doesnt mean it may not have hurt her.

[shance]

Absolutely Hnm. You are right.

I don't think anyone would argue that fact.

[Cha]

170. And does the corporatemedia EVER

play the horrible shit that bush and cheney say..OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER AGAIN? LIKE MY MAN'S DEAN SCREAM?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

[Ava]

22. it was emotional child abuse

you never call your own child those types of names - not when you claim to love them.

I don't care WHAT he has said about the Bush admin - what he said to his child was wrong. Tell me, if he were a republican stomping for the war would you be feeling the same way right now?

[shance]

35. Oh come on Ava. Emotional child abuse is a chronic, pervasive mind control

It is a constant erosion of someones self esteem. The emphasis is constant.

Its not an isolated incident, certainly such as this. To call someone a pig, is certainly not nice, but it is not in any way a permanent disabling!

However, to call someone this continuously and with intent to create self conciousness is another thing - that is most definitively abuse.

This is what it is, an isolated incident.

Are you saying when someone has called you a name one time, you were then a victim of emotional child abuse and you were irreparably damaged?

You need to put this in perspective.

[Ava]

37. ok, i guess physical child abuse is only when it occurs more than once

so if a parent gives a kid a black eye - but only once - that's fine.

ok.. i get it now :sarcasm:

you don't know if it's an isolated incident just like i don't. YOU need to put things in perspective.

[uppityperson]

41. Strawman Ava. If you can't answer you respond with another thing?

[Ava]

44. i didn't attack

did you see any personal attack? as a matter of fact i've said that alec baldwin could be a good guy could be a bad guy. my point is that none of us know him personally and none of us know. regardless he said some pretty screwed up things and instead of worrying about how the public views him and making apologies to them, he should be trying to work through this with his daughter and hopefully let her know that he didn't mean what he said.

[uppityperson]

50. Answering a post about definintion of emotional abuse with this is a strawman

"ok, i guess physical child abuse is only when it occurs more than once
so if a parent gives a kid a black eye - but only once - that's fine.
ok.. i get it now :sarcasm:
you don't know if it's an isolated incident just like i don't. YOU need to put things in perspective."

It does not address the issue of what is "emotional abuse" but relies on "the best defense is a good offense". Though you are right, off to change the word "attack".

Now, how about replying to what is emotional abuse, a isolated incident of who knows why nasty message or "Emotional child abuse is a chronic, pervasive mind control. It is a constant erosion of someones self esteem. The emphasis is constant."?

[philosophie_en_rose]

59. It's not a straw man. The logic is the same.

The frequency of an injury does not define whether an injury occurred.

[Ava]

150. thank you, that's the exact point i was trying to make

got late last night and I logged off without responding.

[uppityperson]

151. That is true, my point is 1 hateful statement does not=emotional abuse.

Edited to add, who amongst us has NEVER said a hateful thing? Who has never said a hurtful thing to a friend or a child? Who has NEVER had this happen to them? By calling an isolated incident "emotional abuse", but minimize emotional abuse.

I have heard others say they were emotional abused as children because their parents:
told them no, they couldn't have/do something and it ruined their whole day
yelled at them or scolded them when they were uppity or teens pushing for a reaction
lost their tempers once in a while
were told they were worthless, stupid pigs, over and over and over and over and over

Which was emotional abuse? Which was parents being human?

Please do NOT minimize emotional abuse by calling an isolated hurtful thing that none of us know the whole story behind emotional abuse.

[aquart]

57. You're kidding, right?

My father made one rotten remark to me and I didn't talk to him for ten years. Couldn't hug him when he was dying. One lousy, selfish statement and the pain is still with me when I remember it. It would have been a lot easier if he'd hit me and said nothing.

[shance]

81. Of course I remember things verbatum that my parents said to me, and I will be honest

there were times it was their old stuff coming into play and then there were times they were right and being honest and I didn't like what they said. You can't qualify everything into one basket.

It's easy to say you would have rather them hit you Aquart.

If you've been hit before and hit hard, you'd retract that. That's bullshit.

I know what rage is like and verbal abuse is bad and certainly on an ongoing level, but physical abuse can be terrifying and immobilizing to a kid, especially if it is an ongoing threat.

Don't tell me one incident of calling someone a name is the same as a solid punch in the face or the gut.

Forget about it.

[lligrd]

64. So True, If This Is Child Abuse

I doubt anyone here hasn't been a victim, a perpetrator or both.

[mzmolly]

185. I find it hard to believe this was an "isolated" incident.

The perspective is up to the child. Baldwin needs perspective, not us. He was wrong, period. Shance I like you and your posts, but I have NO tolerance for this kind of treatment of a child.

[AJ9000]

74. You're right Ava. And to quote the great "gravity" Alec defenders are hypocrites.

[lligrd]

114. Wow, You Find It So Easy To Judge Others?

I don't.

[Duppers]

102. I agree, Ava

I have a 20 yr. ADD old son who has tried my patience numerous times---too many to be counted. I've cried and even some times screamed at him to stop some behavior, but I have NEVER called him NAMES. I've told him that he hurt me and disappointed me, but never did I call him a name, never did I degrade or demean him as a human being who is worthy of love. Those stinging, hurtful things stay with a person for life.

And, although I appreciate and respect Mr. Baldwin's progressive work, dollars to donuts this is not the first time he has demeaned his child. He abused his compassionate, beautiful ex-wife too.

When did the progressive community become so black & white, so nonobjective?

The best way of creating a republican? Demean and overly control them as children. Their repressed anger will find its way.

I hope Mr. Baldwin gets some good therapy, along with those crazy brothers of his. Some parenting they must have had, uh?






...........

Every year, since he was 11, on my son's birthday, I've written the following in a card:

You are Loved

I know sometimes you doubt it,
And you don't hear it often enough,
But know this one thing as you walk this earth:
You are loved.

In your finest hours and weakest moments
You are loved.

Covered with dirt or fresh from your bath,
Respected, rejected, defamed or acclaimed,
You are loved.

You may wear that love proudly as a red flower,
Or keep it silent as cat whiskers,
But, one thing you may never do with that love,
Is doubt it. This is your guarantee
And your obligation.

Because as surely as you live,
You are loved.

...........



If you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else you do matters very much.
-- Jackie Kennedy Onassis

[Ava]

149. I'm sorry to hear you have to go through that Duppers

I think Mr. Baldwin should follow your footsteps in parenthood :hug:

[Duppers]

167. thank you. I said it only to make my point

I was pointing out my son's ADD ONLY to make the point that he, in the past, has put me through tremendous stress. Yet when under such tremendous stress, it is still NOT OK to demean children. Such behavior should not be so easily forgiven, contraire to what some here are saying.

I am not advocating, however, that Mr. Baldwin is a totally bad person, nor is he a totally good person who does not deserve great condemnation for what he said to his daughter. It's not black & white.

Be objective, folks; judge the act, not just the person.

And folks, remember Jackie Kennedy Onassis' quote on parenting and BELIEVE it, please.

[JerseygirlCT]

177. I agree with you. It's both the names, the anger in the call and

the complete lack of proportion in the situation.

He FLIPPED, and verbally pounded a 12 year old. Because of a missed phone call.

THIS is how a sane adult behaves with children? No, it's not.

He needs serious help before he should be interacting with children.

[mzmolly]

184. Ava, you are absolutely correct

IMO.

[spoony]

161. Nothing malevolent?

When this kid is fifty, she'll still remember her father calling her a pig. The man is a pig, and to excuse his behaviour because he doesn't like Bush is fucking stupid.

[BrklynLiberal]

8. Just another distraction from the dead and dying in Iraq!!!!!!

The media will run with anything so as to avoid having to face the REAL STORIES!

[MadBadger]

9. The only people I see doing what you are doing is Faux

Otherwise, it was mentioned, but not more than that really.

[Ava]

12. it was replayed on CNN all day long

i saw stories on it several times

[MadBadger]

15. I dont watch CNN

SO I guess I inadvertently missed it.

[Ava]

16. what do you watch then?

MSNBC only?

[MadBadger]

19. I watch MSNBC mostly and flip to Fox.

Since I know somebody will ask, I watch Fox because I want to hear the outrageous things they say.

[BrklynLiberal]

21. Olbermann played it on MSNBC

[MadBadger]

34. And Would you like to make the accusation that he is hiding the facts of Iraq?

That is what the poster was saying. ANd we all know that KO uses his last story for some of the non-serious news.

[BrklynLiberal]

39. Actually his discussion of it was whether or not it was being used to distract the public from more

meaningful news.

[IChing]

25. You have been blessed with good parents and you have not had children

It is wrong on both sides. and it is wrong to talk about this.
It is a distraction for what is important.

Their divorce sounded like mine
"I hurt you and you hurt me."--pretenders
but We finally got over it.

[Ava]

31. you NEVER take a divorce out on a child - no matter what

and no, i was blessed with a good mother and a good stepfather. i won't go into personal details, but i feel deeply for ireland.

i don't care about alec balwin's political standings. if he treats his daughter like this very often then he is a crappy father. if this is a first time - one time thing, then he just made a HUGE mistake and did something really bad. however, i do not know if he is a good person or a bad person - i do know what he did was wrong.

[uppityperson]

152. Indeed, you do not use children to get back at other parent

Number 1 rule that some people forget. UPJr is suffering from yrs of hearing how bad I am, everything from guns, to sex to money to etc etc etc. When Jr was 11, asked how to believe who was telling the truth because no matter how much I said that people have different views of the same incident, what was heard was too far apart and "it is tearing me apart, someone is lying and I don't know who". I gave Jr a tool. I look and see if a person does what they say they are going to do and takes responsibility for what they have done. That helps me determine who is trustworthy. Jr said thank you and got quiet and that was the last I heard about it. I wish Jr could get past the hurt enough to get some professional help, but in the meantime stay open to communications and do the best I can.

You never involve kids and I am glad that you are ok.

[WildEyedLiberal]

166. Amen!

"i do not know if he is a good person or a bad person - i do know what he did was wrong."

That nuance seems lost on a good percentage of DUers in this thread. :crazy:

[Missy Vixen]

158. I never had children, either. Does my experience not have validity?

>It is wrong on both sides. and it is wrong to talk about this.<

Why? Our experiences as children colors who we are for the rest of our lives. I was the oldest child of a verbally and physically abusive alcoholic father.

I don't know what is happening in the Baldwin/Basinger relationship. One thing I can say, though, is that both parents need to grow up and stop rehashing what went wrong in their relationship via an impressionable child.

IMHO, YMMV.
Julie

[Smarmie Doofus]

29. No, the entire Noise Machine has it now.

Hannity talked about it non-stop on his radio show today.

[Ava]

11. well gosh, now that Anna Nicole's baby's daddy is revealed

they have to have SOMETHING new to cover, you know that isn't real news.

[Disturbed]

17. This man lost his temper and said things he should not have

said. His ex wife took full advantage and set out to destroy him with his statements. The Rethugs are so gleeful over this. Now they are out to destroy him, as well.

[Honeycombe8]

24. The old "boys will be boys" argument. That's an explanation, but not an excuse.

There's no excuse whatsoever for his behavior.

And we don't know for sure it was Basinger who released the tape. It is possible that the child got it to TMZ herself, possibly with the help of some friends. If it was the mother, though, she's about as good a mother as he is a father, then.

But her releasing the tape to the public isn't the main issue. It's HIS behavior that set the whole ball rolling and is the crux of the matter.

I'm willing to accept his apology, though. And I will still listen to his political statements. But I'm not so sure his daughter will be able to forget her father yelling at her that she's a pig. I know I wouldn't be able to, even if I tried. That sort of thing stays with you.

[shance]

18. How true Brklyn. How heart breakingly true. Its unfathomable that we

are being held hostage by a media that is doing essentially everything to withold the truth from us.

How can we trust anything the 'mainstream media' tells us when it is so contrived, carefully manufactured and sensationalized?

[lligrd]

45. You Got It

and it is working even here.

[live love laugh]

159. .

[Honeycombe8]

20. There wasn't much sympathy for Imus, when he said same thing.

Imus said he was a good person who did a bad thing. But even so, there wasn't much sympathy for him.

So....don't know if that'll help Baldwin much, after saying what I think may be an even worse thing than what Imus said.

Before you flame me, think about it. He yelled at an 11 year old girl that she's a pig. Twice. And that girl was his daughter. And he didn't stop there. He then yelled at her that she's not a decent human being. And he didn't stop there. He then yelled at her that he was going to fly down there and personally visit with her and impress upon her that she would NEVER not answer his phone call again.

Now I see why Basinger left him.


(As I told my mother while going through my divorce from a guy she thought was a "good person"...you never really know what someone is like unless you're married to him. That "good person" wasn't so good to his wife.)

[shance]

42. Good point Indie. Imus also spoke out against Dick Cheney and this Administration.

People seem to forget that fact. It's important because it wasn't Hannity or O'Reilly who were fired. It was one who dared to oppose the Administration.

[sandnsea]

65. Oh so incredibly horribly ridiculously wrong

Nappy Headed Ho - and a 30 year history of saying bigoted bullshit is not remotely, anywhere in the same hemisphere - the same thing as a father getting angry at his daughter.

You're defending a man who hired someone to tell "nigger jokes" and calls women tuna-licking bitches and calls his own wife a ho. How in any kind of right mind can you compare that to ONE incident of a an angry father.

[ComerPerro]

135. well said

[spoony]

162. It isn't the same thing: it's worse

Imus wasn't talking to his young children. Baldwin was. It's much, much worse to say such hurtful things to your child than a stranger.

And you're acting like this is the first time Baldwin has shown himself to be a hothead. You really think this is the only time he's said such things to his family members?

[sandnsea]

181. One incident vs 30 years???

Wow.

We KNOW Imus said slurs and vulgarities repeatedly. Absolutely no question.

If Baldwin had a history of calling his child filthy names, don't you think she'd have released a worse tape than this one??

[Maat]

23. I'd outsmart Ms. Bassinger (if I were Alec).

I'd agree (and have the court order, if necessary) ongoing weekly counseling with my daughter with an objective counselor. It would put an end to the issue, make him the one with a great relationship with her, give him some quality time with his daughter, and eliminate the possibility of another incident like this.

And, parents under this type of stress frequently say very hurtful things. I was a kid who was basically a tool for a very manipulative (sweet victim to the outside world) mother. She did everything she could to ruin the relationship between my father and I. Luckily, she didn't. We were very close, after I became an adult, for decades, until he was diagnosed with dementia; however, right before that, she snuck back into his life and got him to make her trustee of his sizable estate, and I'm dealing with that now, but I digress ...

Anyway, just my two cents' worth.

[live love laugh]

171. It is sad how children are used as pawns in divorce. I have seen it

and usually both parents are at fault when this game is played. The child is ultimately the one harmed. But I don't think the harm comes from one conversation like this one. It takes much more than one bad remark to ruin a child's life.

[Maat]

180. I agree (n/t)!

[Laurab]

182. I've seen it too, many times.

Selfish, immature parents who try to turn their young children against the other parent - usually in my experience it's been the custodial parent who does it. It is far worse to do that to a child than to say unkind things on an answering machine, IMO.

The child grows up thinking all sorts of bad things about the other parent, and it won't be straightened out until the children are old enough to see for themselves how they were manipulated. Children are sometimes the only way to "get back" at the ex-spouse, and many, many people abuse that, never taking into account how they are screwing up their child, in fact, possibly not even knowing, because they just believe they're right.

Honestly, I'm embarassed that I even know about this conversation - I can think of thousands of conversations I've had in my lifetime that I sure as hell wouldn't want to hear on the news, voice messages I've left when I knew the person was there, and just wasn't answering the phone, and times when I was just frustrated, or angry.

I cannot believe a mother would release something like this to the public, if she really cared about her child. If in fact, it was a concern, it should have been taken to a court, a therapist, or a lawyer. It's just not my business, and I feel sorry for the child, and for Alec Baldwin. I think Kim Basinger should get help, as much as, and probably far more, than Alec Baldwin.

This has been my only post on this, mainly because I just can't believe it's become something that so many people, who can't possibly know the whole story, think is their business. I don't think it's my business, but I added my 2 cents anyway.

[Nikia]

189. It is probably the case in the Baldwin instance

And how much terrible for the girl if she got that message after her mother told her that she was bad or hurting her if she answered that phone when her father was calling.
I went through that crap when I was a child. Both parents told me that the other parent was bad, that I was bad because I was like the other parent, and that I was bad if I ever sided with the other parent. In addition, I had to keep secrets from the other. I dreaded being asked what I wanted to do in regards to holidays or vacations because it wasn't really a choice in what I wanted to do, it was choosing to cause the least harm to each parent and to myself and my sister. I suffer to this day because of this.
What Baldwin said to her really bothered me because he was blaming his daughter for what were probably the actions of his ex wife.

[Solo_in_MD]

27. Or maybe in addition to being a vocal liberal, he is also an asshole and wretched father

Occams razor and common sense say his politics are not related to his inability to control his temper, something that was well known previously.

The gossip rags and websites are running with this, not because of some dark Rovian conspiracy but because it sells, even in the M$M. Like most of the Hollywood crowd, Baldwin is a zero politically with no real following. He gets some play at friendly venues, but is bereft of any real influence. That is what doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. Quite literally he is not worth the effort on anyones part to discredit. He has no following and could be counted on to self destruct.

Sometimes a messy divorce is just a messy divorce.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

30. It feels really creepy to me the way people are intruding into this man's private life

People are assuming a lot of facts that aren't in evidence. We don't know what might have brought this man to say that to his daughter. Did she say something or act in a way that was even worse and that might have caused him to see red? Everyone gets angry. Everyone has a temper that sometimes gets away from them. What, you don't get angry? You haven't said words you regret? Are you a Saint? Oh, but that was different because....? To try to extrapolate an entire life's history between this man and his daughter based on one word is just not warranted, not from intelligent progressives at least. And I certainly hope that people are not just using this, latching on to a couple of facts to trash this man's entire life just to advance a personal agenda they might have, whatever that might be.

[uppityperson]

33. Exactly and thank you very much.

[shance]

38. And its happening all over the place. We need to confront how our privacy

is being assaulted by this Administration and those they are employing (with our taxpayer money) to do the invading.

The celebrities being assaulted are the most obvious casualties of this abuse. However it is happening to many citizens as well.

It has happened to many of us.

It is their true "War on Terror". It is a war on anyone choosing to oppose this Administration's policies and ideology.

[lligrd]

43. Why Can't People See This?

You are so right. Only against those who this administration wishes.

[shance]

48. Don't know sweetie. Only hope people are waking up!

Here's to hoping and spreading the word!

:toast:

[lligrd]

55. Hear Hear!

And a payback toast.

:toast:

[lligrd]

40. Agreed! nt

[spoony]

163. It feels really creepy to me the way people are defending child abuse

"just to advance a personal agenda they might have, whatever that might be."

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

173. Well, the language WAS abusive and it was said to a child

But then a parent angrily yelling at a kid saying "Johnny for the 10th time go clean the crap out of your stinking lousy pig-stye of a room this instant" is also crude and vulgar, but I don't think many people would consider that child abuse. Look up the term "abuse" in the dictionary.

But to put the two words together to form the phrase "child abuse" has a whole special set of meanings, especially in this day and age. It's a term I don't like to see tossed around as freely as a lot of people are doing, as that word is a powerful talisman that seems to end all reasonable conversation and all thought processes and leads to ultimate condemnation of the accused so-called "child abuser" as the most terrible person on earth. People who see child abusers under every rock and around every corner only serve to weaken the meaning. Parents losing their tempers at children are not child abusers, per se. Otherwise, virtually 100% of parents would be child abusers.

And to suggest that I am defending child abuse is utterly ridiculous. I am defending the person's right to privacy and I am defending reason. I'm attacking those who assume they know everything about this father-daughter relationship based upon one recorded conversation that is being exploited by this man's angry ex-wife and her lawyers in a divorce proceeding. That's a very particular set of circumstances that only those in their position can understand and appreciate.

[WildEyedLiberal]

49. He's an opponent of Bush therefore he's a super guy

Not necessarily. Maybe he is a fantastic guy who just fucked up just this once. Or maybe he's a serial abuser with an anger management problem. Neither you nor I know.

But your premise - he is against Bush therefore he must be great and we should defend him - is ludicrous. Kim Jong Il and Ahmadinejad are against Bush too, but they're also despotic lunatics. Opposing Bush =/= being a good person.

[shance]

56. Alright Wild eyed, annie up my friend. Where'd I say that?

I said he was human.

Apparently your SUPER human.

Please elaborate.

[MadBadger]

58. You said he was a good and decent guy

and to back it up, you pointed to his politics.

[shance]

96. Absolutely. Anyone who chooses to be politically involved and take risks that

certainly would cost him endorsements and contracts because of his willingness to speak out for what is right and about what is happening to our country due to this Administrations policies when it would be that much easier to keep their mouth shut is most certainly a good and decent person.

It has nothing to do with being a guy or a girl. It has to do with being a good citizen and a good human being.

[philosophie_en_rose]

68. Ad hominem arguments don't address the issue.

Your argument is - "He's human." "Everyone makes brutal statements to children, so it's okay." And then "You think you're better than everyone else, because you and everyone you know don't make brutal statements to children."

Your argument fails for several reason. First, most people don't treat their children like that. Second, refraining from demeaning children does not make one super human. Most people aren't bubbling with rage, or, if they are, don't need to insult children to feel better.

[lligrd]

78. Brutal?? If Calling Someone A Pig Is Brutal

Then most kids are guilty of brutality by the age of 7.

[MadBadger]

80. Okay, so then Alec Baldwin is as mature as a Seven Year old.

[lligrd]

88. Come On, Most Of Us Have Reverted Back To Acting Like 7

during fits of anger at one time or another.

[MadBadger]

90. So he reverted back to an age that is younger than his own daugther

Who according to him is 12...or was it 11? Who cares!

[lligrd]

93. Maybe she reverted back to a 2 year old

and this thread is getting quite juvenile itself.

[MadBadger]

95. I agree with that

I just have a problem with people sticking up for him because of his politics. Its funny, because a Republican could be the best family man in the entire world, but because he disagrees with us, he is scum.

[lligrd]

97. Actually, I Stuck Up For Mel Too

even though I found his comments personally repugnant. Glad we can agree on something though.

[MadBadger]

100. I couldnt stick up for Mel Gibson

As a Jewish person with a grandfather who survived the Holocaust and lost all of his family in it, there is no way I can say anything nice about him. I hope he doesnt act in anymore movies that look really good such as one of my personal favs "The Patriot," because I refuse to give that rude and thoughless little pig and money what so ever. Now that was an appropriate time to use that phrase.

[lligrd]

103. I Loved "The Patriot" Too

But I walked out on his Christ movie. I personally won't pay for another movie of his but neither would I demand that he be put out of business. So sorry to hear that your family was personally affected by the Holocaust which is one of the most horrifying episodes in history that I know of. (Of course, the more I learn the more horrifying all of humanities history and possible future becomes,)

And yes, I will have the last word on this thread, dammit. lol

[MadBadger]

105. I believe he should be put out of business the same way Imus should have

By people turning away from him. By people stopping to go see his movies. Hit him where it hurts most, in the wallet.

[lligrd]

106. I Could Go For That But That Isn'tWhat Happened With Imus

He was taken out by threats and the threats that counted were from the right wing and the big money they controlled not our rants. I told you - the last word and I am determined. And DU is getting very sluggish, you should just give in.

[MadBadger]

113. I was saying that I wish that was how Imus was taken out

And he was taken out by threats from the left, not the right (Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton).

[lligrd]

115. Give Me A Break - Since When Does Sharpton Or Jackson

have any real power unless the right wing hands it to them? You are getting sleepy -- very sleepy...

[MadBadger]

116. I am getting sleepy

but the right wing didnt think he should be fired. Fox news did their best to defend him.

[lligrd]

117. Faux News Did Its Best To Keep The Story Going

Did you seriously not see that? I am really searching for answers on this one because it really was a charade. Where was there outrage at Rush calling people halfricans? Where is your outrage at that?

[MadBadger]

175. I saw Hannity doing his best to defend him.

But the difference between my feelings of Imus and Rush is that I think Rush is a racist. I just hoped that people will tune them out instead of censoring them.

[liberal1973]

126. I think that the republican is scum.

The republican so-called family man is the best family man ,yet he is a real ahole to other people in the world.

Kind of like with Iraq. Attack Iraq but the republican scum would use others to do his or her dirty work.

[druidity33]

127. children are capable of brutality at around 3 yrs old... n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

89. You called him a "good, decent man" in your OP.

Your reasons for believing that are because he speaks out against Bush.

Ergo, speaking out against Bush = good and decent person, according to your OP's logic.

[shance]

101. I think it is decent to speak out against any criminal conduct WE*** Am I wrong?

It's not easy speaking out against this Administration. I speak from my own experience.

So yes, I will say anyone who has the compassion and the concern to speak out against the criminality that is happening against all of us is yes, a good, decent human being.

What those are doing in Washington, affects every single one of us. Sooner or later it affects all of us, even those who think they won't be affected. That is why everyone needs to be viewing the big picture.

[lligrd]

104. Well Said

Only the brave speak out these days and this will keep others from speaking out.

[WildEyedLiberal]

118. What Alec Baldwin said to his kid has nothing to do with politics.

And speaking out against Bush doesn't give anyone carte blanche to be a dick in the rest of their life. Sorry - being liberal isn't a "get out of jail free" card for bad behavior.

Maybe he actually is a decent guy and just got way, way, way out of control in this one isolated incident. Or maybe he's a habitual bastard to his daughter. No one besides the family knows for sure and speculating is impossible. I just have a problem with the logic that "well, so and so is a liberal, so that outweighs anything bad they could ever do." Let's not be like the right and sweep any misbehavior committed by people on "our side" under the rug and pretend it doesn't matter because we agree with their politics.

[lligrd]

119. I GIve Up - You Guys Are Right

If you have ever spoken against Bush you deserve to be secretly taped and played on national television while ranting at your children or spouse. You win, enjoy the repercussions!

[WildEyedLiberal]

122. Wow, talk about a straw man.

I'd ask you to point to exactly where I implied that anyone who has ever spoken against Bush deserves to be secretly taped and played on national television, but it would be a waste of both our times because you know as well as I do that your post is nothing but alarmist, overreactive hyperbole. Do you realize how insane that sounds?

I have no idea why discussions in GD *inevitably* devolve into such over-the-top hysterics for no real reason.

[lligrd]

124. Do I Realize How Insane Your Post Sounds?

I wouldn't call it insane, maybe a bit ludicrous but not insane. Nope, I would need far more proof of your mental state to call you insane. What's that? You meant my post was insane? Why? That is exactly what has happened here. Baldwin was secretly tape having a private conversation with his daughter which ended up on national television and you are judging him by it. Insane?

[spoony]

164. What people say in private is far more telling than what

they say when they know they're being watched.

[WildEyedLiberal]

165. He wasn't "secretly taped" and your arguments are getting ludicrous

He left a VOICEMAIL. His private, real-time phone conversation wasn't secretly wiretapped. Anyone with a brain knows that a voicemail is an actual recording which will exist as long as the owner of the cell phone wants it to exist. Nothing "secret" about it.

I'm still waiting for you to point out where anyone has said that BECAUSE he is anti-Bush THEREFORE he "deserves" to have his private conversations aired in public. You alleged a causation that does not exist in reality.

And, once again, you make an allegation that is wholly unsupported by fact. I am not "judging" Baldwin. I said in several different posts that WE DON'T KNOW if he's a great guy or a scummy guy. The only people judging Baldwin here are you and the OP, who have already judged that, based on the fact that he doesn't like Bush, he must be a great guy. You have made far more assumptions about his character than I have.

[lligrd]

60. Nope, He Dares To Speak Out About Bush And Therefore

any mistake he makes, even in private should be played to the hilt while Gonzos lies get little play. And Roves fingerprints become invisible again, as do the deaths of our soldiers and Iraqis.

[MadBadger]

62. Im actually confused. Are you blaming this on Rove?

Second, Gonzo has gotten a lot of play from what I have seen on MSNBC, CNN, as well as the print media.

[lligrd]

Not Playing As Well As Baldwin

Even on the Progressive radio shows or here.

[MadBadger]

70. I guess we are watching/listening different things

[lligrd]

75. Or Wearing Different Shades Of Glasses nt

[lligrd]

67. And I Wouldn't Doubt Rove Does Have His Fat Finger On This

Probably called all his news sources and told them {run with it, those liberals will eat it up."

Edit: Just taking advantage of DU double post to rant some more.

[MadBadger]

63. Delete

[gravity]

54. You're shit doesn't stink

I don't care what about their political views, an abusive asshole is an abusive asshole.

[lligrd]

66. I Guess That Make Us All Abusive Assholes

unless your shit doesn't stink?

[gravity]

69. My shit doesn't stink

Everyone is an abusive asshole except me:evilgrin:

[lligrd]

73. You Got Me There

Every action has a reaction. If there is imperfection there must be perfection. If some people's shit stinks there must be people who's shit doesn't. Hope you are in the stall next to mine.

[live love laugh]

132. "You're"? nt

[JohnnyRingo]

72. Family Matter

No one's business.

After hearing Hannity and others tonight cry for his arrest, I was shocked by the fake outrage from conservatives who normally long for the days of corporal punishment in school. Colmes pointed out that Sean talks like that to people all the time. (he promised to show a clip)

Most savor fond memories of their father's harsh discipline and credit their strict upbringing for their current own high morals and would never approve of parenting through public committee. (remember how they responded to "It take a village"?)

But not if it's Hollywood's most reviled liberal.
No, no, no, he has to go to prison.☼

[lligrd]

76. Exactly. Leave It To The Family

(and perhaps the family court and professionals) to decide. Not a matter for public debate.

[MadBadger]

77. Well, you see, the problem with that is the other dumbass parent leaked it.

What a great set of parents Ireland has!

[lligrd]

84. Now That I Can't Argue With That

Am quite happy that my parents were not celebrities because although they were great parents, I would hate for everything that occurred to be played in public.

[AJ9000]

86. What is your source that Kim leaked it?

[shance]

94. You tell us who else would leak this??

n/t

[AJ9000]

107. deleted duplicate.

[AJ9000]

108. Lawyers. Or maybe the daughter showed it to someone who put it out there.

Frankly Shance I'm disgusted w/ the way he talked to her. If he was a Republican, I doubt you would be out here defending him. In fact you'd probly be criticizing him like I have been.

And you nor I really know how he is personally, but he does have the rep of an arrogant prick.

[AJ9000]

85. Your wrong buddy. Child-abuse is everyone's business - and that's what this was.

But you're right on re: the right-wing hypocracy of course.

[lligrd]

91. You Are Wrong And You Guys Are Making A Mockery Of Real

Child abuse.

[AJ9000]

109. This WAS real child abuse. It's verbal abuse. You don't talk that way to your daughter ever.

[shance]

110. Is it child abuse just because you deem it so AJ? You offer no reflection, no legitimate

contributions to the argument and/or points being made, just your absolute authority on the subject.

There have been those willing to share their own experiences and thoughts, but you offer a simplistic statement.

Give us more AJ.

Can you offer some other statement than one with no backing?

[AJ9000]

123. Are you really arguing that this was not verbal abuse, or that there is

no such thing? This should not take much explaining.

"You offer no reflection, no legitimate contributions to the argument and/or points being made."

Yeah well I did most of my pontificating regarding this thing on another thread. BTW, how is it you know Alec is a compassionate, decent human being. Have you ever met the guy, or are you just blinded by his like-minded politics?

[PegDAC]

172. Well,

when I was a single parent , and my daughter was young, I raised my voice telling my daughter to clean up her room. No name-calling, although I do recall uttering the word "damn", as I had worked a series of graveyard shifts. One of the neighbors came to my door and threatened to turn me into the Sheriff for verbal abuse.

[lligrd]

112. Still Wrong, Child Abuse Is A Hideous Crime

and this doesn't come close. By your definition, nearly every single person is a victim of child abuse by someone. Your definition demeans those who are really being abused. Accusing someone of child abuse is serious and should not be done lightly or without complete knowledge of the sitution.

[AJ9000]

120. I guess your one of those who need to see burns or broken bones.

[lligrd]

121. Nope But I Would Like More Evidence Than One Secretly Taped

phone call. Unlike you, I might add.

[ComerPerro]

136. this is hardly child abuse

[Cameron27]

79. It was a lousy

and hurtful thing to say to his daughter, but he also sounded pretty hurt and angry to me. I don't know what it means. Maybe he's a horrible abusive father, maybe not. I won't judge the man by a one-sided phone conversation.

[Control-Z]

92. Thank you, thank you

thank you for saying what I've been thinking all day.

I have teens with cell phones and believe me, there is nothing that angers me more than their use of them against me as taught by their father. Hanging up on me when they don't like what I'm saying. Turning their phones off when they are out too late and breaking my rules. It's infuriating, especially when you pay the bill every month, especially when you know their father encourages it.

[lligrd]

98. Not Sure Teens Need Encouragement To Do Such Things

but it sure doesn't help.

[shance]

99. Bless you Dancing**** you hang in there!

And thanks for adding your thoughts and posting.

xo, shance

[earth mom]

111. I can't believe the posts saying what Baldwin said was abuse.

Like :wtf:

Good parents are there for the good, the bad and the ugly. That Baldwin called his kid out on her ugly brattiness is a what he should be doing as a parent unless he wants to raise a spoiled brat! It's not like this is an everyday event that could be called abuse, but obviously a parent that was DONE with the crap he was getting from his kid. That Bassinger chose to expose him this way speaks more about her than him.

[AJ9000]

125. This from someone who's screen name is "Thegoldenrule." nm

[earth mom]

190. My user name has nothing to do with the topic...but FYI...

my name is in REACTION to the fundie bullshit * & Co was feeding everyone back in 2004 when they stole the election. Yeah, when they filled the airwaves with how pure and virtuous they-the rethuglican reich wing were "supposed" to be. Except one thing: they had not a clue about The Golden Rule! They've spent YEARS practicing everything BUT the Golden Rule or anything that approached ANY kind of ethics, values or morals. Christian or not.

BTW-I don't "pretend" to be good or moral or ethical. Instead, I TRY and live my life ethically and morally as a non christian. I ain't perfect and don't pretend to be. And neither is Alec Baldwin or any other parent out there. Who are YOU or I or anyone on this board to judge him as a parent the one time we hear him reprimand his kid? A knee jerk reaction about this is simply not fair.

Now, * & his cabal...well, that's a COMPLETELY different story since they have a VERY long history of corruption, crime, and evil deeds.

[sadiesworld]

128. So now Baldwin was being a good parent by "call[ing] his kid out on her

ugly brattiness..."? Gee, did you get that one from the Dobson school of parenting? He called his 11 year old daughter a pig. Twice. A parent (particularly a father) shouldn't be comparing his child (particularly a daughter) to an animal considered to be fat and dirty. And just because it may not rise to the level of actionable abuse doesn't mean it isn't abuse.

I will say this: I practiced divorce law for about eight years and if this tape were produced in court (assuming the case was otherwise reasonably close) the parent who went on this rant might as well give up any notions of gaining primary custody.

[earth mom]

191. Who are ANY of us to judge based on a single incidence?

Sure hope you don't make a parenting mistake that comes back to bite you in the ass.

BTW-To err is human.

[robcon]

129. I disagree with the OP

Alec Baldwin is not a 'normal' human being. He's a monster.

He's not a good, decent human being. He's an egotistical jerk.

[InvisibleTouch]

130. That may be, but...

...I wouldn't want to be his daughter.

People do wonderful things in some areas of their life, and not-so-wonderful things in others. It's completely possible to have great insight and passion for the state of our politics and our world, while still being a spoiled brat with a volatile temper in one's personal life. A person can be highly intelligent while still being emotionally immature. It's possible to commend them for the good they do, while disliking the not-so-good.

Funny, but the responses to this incident seem to be falling into 2 camps: those from parents who have themselves been driven to the point of lashing out in anger at their kids, and those from people who remember being treated that way as kids and are having their bad memories triggered all over again. I guess I fall into the latter category.

On edit: I'm not saying he should be crucified or ostracized or demonized. I'm just saying he did something reprehensible. He's apologized for it, but the only mark of a true apology is if he doesn't do the same thing again. I guess only his family and his close associates could tell you if this was a one-time incident or a pattern.

[Annces]

131. It occurs to me from reading your OP

that though Baldwin was being mean and nasty, he was trying to communicate with his daughter. The mother probably wants to shut Baldwin out of her own life, and does not care about the daughter's need for a father.

[The Backlash Cometh]

133. I haven't heard the tape.

Can someone recap? Is it something that a father wouldn't tell a daughter under any circumstance? Or could it happen to any one of us?

[in_cog_ni_to]

134. Kim Basinger outed the tape because she hates her ex husband and doesn't want him to share in

custody of Ireland. Is Kim a RW operative? I don't think KKKRove was behind this one and I am one of the MOST suspicious of this cabal. I trust NOTHING they say or do, but in this case, it's just a custody battle. Kim did it to make Alec look bad in the eyes of the judge. This whole thing will blow over after a few months. The people will be engrossed in the next sensationalized MSM story.

This too shall pass.

[Evergreen Emerald]

147. that does not really make sense.

The judge had heard it a week earlier, and prohibited contact with the child pending a hearing on the issue. It would do no good for Kim B. to disclose it to the media. In fact, it would harm her. Since it was in a court file, plenty of others had access to it.

[undeterred]

137. He may be in the proper place politically but he's still a narcissistic asshole.

Its possible to be both. He's wonderful to listen to and look at, but keep me at a safe distance, because as a man relating to individual women, you can tell the guy is a total prick.

[rocktivity]

138. What Alec said wasn't good. Leaking it to the media as divorce fodder

wasn't good either. And if he weren't a high-profile liberal, I doubt it would be news.

:headbang:
rocknation

[LibraLiz1973]

139. After all Alec has done to keep this relationship this is a real shame

He has been fighting this battle for YEARS.
Court cases, accusations, Kim blocking any attempt to see and talk to his daughter.
As far as the phone thing goes, he had to go to court almost a dozen times to get Ireland her own phone
because Kim would not let Ireland talk to him on any line she paid for. She would not answer the phone and let him know
how his daughter was either. It's been YEARS and he continues to fight for this child. Do you have ANY idea the amount of
money this must be costing him? Kim will end up bankrupting him in her efforts to destroy his life.
He moved to NYC for work (That is where 30 Rock is filmed) but he flies to LA every other week to see his child for 4 days.
It's written into his contract that he can take that time- He got less money from the show to be able to do that.
Kim makes it difficult to see Ireland because she (Kim) refuses to see Alec because she hates him so much. So unless there
is a third party available to do the pick up and drop off, Kim wont do it at all.
He's had to fight tooth and nail to be able to have ANY say in his child's education & health care.

He's not been able to keep a relationship going because women end up resenting the amount of time and money
he spends to just maintain any kind of relationship with his daughter.

Because he is a man the presumption is that HE is in the wrong- that he deserves this.
Interestingly enough no one but Kim has ever had anything negative to say about his parenting.
There are plenty of people who will talk about her mental issues.

It must be extremely hurtful and frustrating to have your child becoming more and more like her mother.
She's 11 years old and she is already starting to play head games. It's not her fault, she's a victim of
the machinations of Kim. But after spending years fighting that woman and millions of dollars doing so, do you think
he might be mad when the person he has been fighting for starts treating him like shit? If that was you, do you think
you might eventually hit your boiling point?

What he said in that message was wrong. He reacted like a human being who was hurt and angry instead of like a father who needed
to keep alot of that to himself.

Kim has carefully maneuvered for YEARS to get him to this point. She knew at some point that he would say something dumb.
And the second he did, she passed that message off to Harvey Levin at TMZ. That is some great parenting!

That poor kid. One parent said some jackass stupid shit, the other took that private moment and released it to the world.
Now millions of people know that child's business. That must be mortifying.

Alec continues to fight an uphill battle to maintain any kind of relationship with Ireland. I have to say, if I was him, I might just throw in the towel. Maybe in a few years she will realize that he loves her and that what her mother did was wrong.
The harder he fights for her, the crazier Kim gets. It might be easier for all involved for him to walk away and pray that at some point Ireland comes to her senses.

[Berry Cool]

142. If he is so mad at Kim, let him take it out on Kim.

Not their child. No matter how much he feels she is being manipulated by Kim. If she is, that's bad enough without verbally lashing out at her for the situation on top of it. You don't think she already knows she's being used? You think she has much of a choice? Does HE think she has much of a choice?

Parents involved in a messy divorce seem to forget one thing: No matter how furious they are at each other, they should never, NEVER take it out on their children. Not even if they think their children are following the instructions of a cruel and manipulative parent. Why? Because they are, in the end, JUST CHILDREN. The parents are supposed to act like ADULTS. They need to remember that the things their children do are the actions of children--and that if they seem insufferable, and they seem to be so because they are being dictated by a manipulating parent, yelling at or punishing the child for being controlled by the other parent is a misplacement of their anger.

Was it wrong for this message to be leaked? You bet. But was it wrong for it to be delivered in the first place? That too. It makes both parents look hideously ugly, and makes me wish Ireland didn't have to be with either of them so that she could be detached and deprogrammed from the treatment of BOTH of them and live a happy life.

Honestly. Why do people like this end up getting together in the first place? (I suppose that's a naive statement.)

[LibraLiz1973]

155. I think if he could talk to Kim, he would

I think he was wrong to leave the message.
But, not so wrong that it has become OUR business.
If I had to choose, I would say that releasing the message was worse than leaving it.


I do understand your points though!

[Rosemary2205]

140. "Good and decent" people can still be abusive to their kids. nt

[Evergreen Emerald]

141. It was abusive and ugly. Anyone who treats their child that way...

..does not deserve our respect, no matter who he votes for.

There have been articles about his abusive, domestic-violence type behavior for years. His violence was the cause of the divorce. The child's mother is doing everything she can do to protect her child from that ugly debilitating CRAP.

I am stunned at the attempt to white-wash that behavior because of his politics. Hypocritical.

[opihimoimoi]

143. I stand with Alec...I think the kid did sumpthin to make him mad...

[Evergreen Emerald]

145. ...and when a kid makes you mad...all bets are off

rage away...
?

[opihimoimoi]

157. Who sez the kid and Kim don't have bullyism in them...a personality disorder of some kind...

maybe anbd maybe not...but his reaction indicates, IMHO, that something is not right...and its not ALL HIM...

[slackmaster]

144. Christopher Walken is a better man than Alec Baldin - HERE'S PROOF!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPioxo10fjg

[live love laugh]

169. lolol

[Greyhound]

146. Do you know him personally? n/t

[Beelzebud]

148. Anything to distract the sheep from issues that have concequence in their lives.

[Bucky]

153. I have a question: After the mom released the tapes, how guilty does that daughter feel?

As a given: Alec Baldwin was being a grade A ass. I doubt you become a powerful celebrity without having that ability.

As a second given: parents sometimes fly off the handle with their kids. Lord know I have. If the parent is also dealing with the pressure of an estranged and strained relationship and is being kept away from his kid, the chances of flying off the handle are multiplied many times over.

But problem here also includes the mother using the daughter as a pawn to hurt her ex. I'm a divorced parent who used to have to struggle to see my kid and I can't describe how much it hurt, what it's done to me as a man. Today I have sole custody and actively encourage my daughter to maintain contact with her mother, even back when it was a little painful for both of them, because I know they'll do better in the long run--but also because I know how deep that pain can run.

I don't think Baldwin's a complete innocent victim in all this. He almost certainly did something to set his ex off on a course like this. Something tells me they're all being a little selfish here. The two tragedies are (1) that they're not seeking real therapy for this hurtful behavior and (2) Baldwin's political opponents are using his family troubles to hurt a very worthy cause.

[JerseygirlCT]

178. I totally agree with you on the selfish part

Using the kids as pawns in their fight is just wrong, on both sides.

They both need to grow the hell up and start behaving like adults -- at least WRT their kids.

His behavior was absolutely wrong. There's no excusing it, and I do think it was abusive.

Her behavior in releasing the tape was also wrong.

Were either of these selfish babies thinking of their daughter?

Sure doesn't seem like it, at all. I think that's just despicable.

[roguevalley]

160. He spoke out when it cost something. He has guts. He has my

respect. Someday, may they both resolve this matter and move on.

[live love laugh]

168. I agree. Nobody's perfect. The "judges" here amaze me. n/t

[MadBadger]

174. I really thought this thread was dead.

[JerseygirlCT]

176. Obviously a good human being, with some very serious flaws

Not that any of us are without flaws.

But listening to that conversation? That was verbal abuse of a 12 year old, and I'm sorry, there's simply no excuse for that, none at all.

He needs some serious help, and he and his ex need to get the hell over themselves and their feud and keep their kids out of it.

Doesn't matter a whit how good a liberal he is, or what he's done to speak out about issues of the day.

He abused his kid, period. He needs help. That's a wholly different thing than however anyone feels about his political work or stands.

[ScreamingMeemie]

179. I don't know him so it's not for me to judge his goodness or lack

thereof.

But I can comment on that type of behavior. We, as a society (and even within DU on any given day) do that all the time.

[mzmolly]

183. He's a good human being and a not so good father.

Sorry, I see his abuse for what it is. Does that mean I "hate" him or belittle his accomplishements? No. But that does mean I think he needs some help and perspective if he's to gain his child's love and mutual respect.

[mzmolly]

186. Pardon spelling above. Correction...

Sorry, I see his abuse for what it is. Does that mean I "hate" him or belittle his accomplishments? No. But that does mean I think he needs some help and perspective if he's to gain his child's love and mutual respect. ;)