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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:07 AM
Original message
More "pearls" of advice on child punishment and submissive wives from Debi and Michael Pearl.
After watching Rachel tonight about Uganda and The Family, after seeing the Stupak amendment occur in the House, after watching the Democrats fail to stand up for women's rights strongly and firmly....I have reached my tolerance limit on people who proclaim to be religious. They claim to be Christian, but for many there is nothing Christ-like about them. I was raised in the church, but I have little tolerance right now.

I never was really aware of this couple until I posted something about it the other day here. I was shocked at some of their techniques of punishment. I mentioned it to someone I was talking to yesterday, and that person told me that most of her friends at church used their ideas. I really felt odd when I heard that. I did not say much in return, but I did ask her about hitting small children with the pipe. She said she did not do that. I don't know what other policies women at her church follow.

I found some more quotes from the Pearls' book, "To Train up a Child", at a book site. They are stunning to me. I find it hard to believe that people treat children like that. I was raised by parents who spanked, but only in really bad situations...and just a quick swat or two on the bottom. There was never any of that hitting with pipes and such as that.

To Train up a Child

Some excerpts from the book and from the Q&A at their website posted at the forum. The website is No Greater Joy

For instance, in one section a woman writes that her husband is verbally and emotionally abusive, has had numerous affairs, and is hurting her daughter, yet Debi Pearl states that the woman needs to stay with her husband because God hates all divorce. Yes, God hates divorce, but he also addresses infidelity and divorce in the bible (Matthew 5, Matthew 19) as well as saying that if anyone harms His children, they are better off to hang a millstone around their neck. Debi manipulates scripture to say that God will not save the woman's child if she leaves her husband.... how audacious to declare that God, who created the earth, will not save a CHILD if her mother leaves her abusive husband!


More apparently from the Q&A section:

PHYSICAL ABUSE OF WIFE AND CHILD

Later in the answer to the letter, Michael Pearl chimes in saying that it is only abuse if the husband hits his child and a red mark remains for at least two hours. TWO HOURS. Let's say it only remains for an hour and a half... oops! not abuse? I honestly think not. The emotional effects of abuse last long beyond the physical implications. He then says to send your husband to jail (something that is not likely to happen... physical abuse of a spouse or child rarely resorts to imprisonment), and to spend the time he is in jail writing love letters and having steamy phone calls. Honestly, if you have had need to send your husband to jail for beating you and your child, how does one think that God would desire you to stay with that person? He also says "If your abusing husband fully understands that you have the power of the law behind you, he will learn to keep his hands in his pockets" which is exactly the opposite... those who have been convicted of abuse in the past are the most often repeat offenders!


And this part is unbelievable.

While spanking your child and she cries and is upset about it (very obviously if you are hitting your child with supply line, they are going to be in pain and not happy about it), Michael Pearl says this:

"When she screams or flees, calmly follow through by physically subduing her. Sit on her, if you have to, and slowly explain that you will not tolerate this resistance. Explain in a normal tone (She will eventually stop screaming and listen) that you are going to give her, say, five licks for the original offense and an additional two licks for the fit. Slowly apply the five licks, counting out loud. When I say slowly, I mean with a thirty second gap between each lick and a calm explanation to the screaming child that you are not the least impressed except that you are going to spank harder and she still gets the additional two licks plus one more for her ongoing screaming. When you have finally arrived at five well- anticipated and carefully counted licks, say, OK, your spanking is over; that is the five licks you got for hitting your brother, but now I must give you two more for trying to run away. Give her one lick and say, Now, that is one of the licks for running away; you have one more coming. Give the second lick, and then calmly and slowly explain that all her licks are over now, except for the one additional lick she incurred for continuing to scream during the spanking. After you have finished, tell her that you are going to let her up now, if she stops screaming, otherwise you are going to give her one additional lick. If she stops, or at least makes a great effort to, then you have won. You may never have to go through this horrible time again. But, if she is continuing to scream in defiance, you have the option of continuing to warn and spank, or of ceasing here with a parting warning: Next time you better not run and throw a fit; for if you do, you will only get more licks and harder ones.


And the poster gives the page numbers from their book in which they tell about punishing their children.

The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe whipping their own 4 month old daughter (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of "every child" (p.2) for "Christians and non-Christians" (p.5) and for "every transgression" (p.1). Parents who don't whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferent, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are "creating a Nazi" (p.45). On p.60 of the book, they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them "to get up." On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying. On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming. The Pearls recommend pulling a nursing infant's hair (p.7), and describe tripping their non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water (p.67). They recommend ignoring an infant's bumped head when he falls to the floor, and ignoring skinned knees (p.86).


This section about 3 year old girl "babbling" during the night, rolling her eyes..is straight from the Q&A section at their website. They should be taking that child to the doctor.

From their website No Greater Joy:

Babbling in the night

The question:

We are having problems with our three, almost four-year-old daughter and I can't help but think it is spiritual.

We have enjoyed and tried to put your principles in child training to work in our lives and overall, our children are REALLY well-behaved. I will admit that I didn't get on the ball very quickly with our daughter but have been more consistent recently (I have four children five and under). All this to say, there are times she wakes up in the middle of the night just babbling - things we don't understand (and I get a sort of scared feeling just listening and being with her). This morning as I read the Word with her, she just started to stare into space and when I asked her a question about the passage, her eyes rolled back and she just said "I don't know." We have also noticed some intense rebellion (openly lying) and bad attitudes especially with her. There also seems to be a rift between her and her father and we don't know why. We both try to encourage the relationship but it is usually "Mommy, Mommy, Mommy." Anyway, anything you could offer us would be greatly appreciated - we would like to hear what you would have to say.


The answer from Michael Pearl:

You know there is a malady but you can not determine the cause. Knowing that all disease is best treated with good health, we strengthen the body in every way possible, allowing it to heal itself. So do with your daughter. The first thing is to heal the relationship with her father. She should spend time with him alone, looking to him to supply all her needs, feeding her, reading to her, playing with her. Emotional health is rooted in trusting, nurturing relationships.
The babbling in the middle of the night may just be a half-awake state of confusion. Or it could be a physical issue. Get her checked for worms. Check all her vitalssugar levels, blood pressure, oxygen levels, etc. You said you get scared just listening to her. That concerns me. I dont know if you are over-reacting or if there really is something supernatural about it. I would do a housecleaning spiritually. Make sure she has not been molested. Suspect everyonemale and femaleall ages. Ask her in a non-threatening way if anyone has touched her here or there or in this manner or that. Has she been exposed to any witchcraft? Harry Potter, etc.? Have you allowed her to watch inappropriate things on the TV? Again, if there is a spiritual problem, the cure is good spiritual health. Pray over her, but not in a way that would alarm her. Sing spiritual songs around her and with her. In a relaxed way, tell her the Bible stories of Jesus. Make her happy and holy, surrounding her with the Spirit of God, and the devil will have to leave her.


Yes, indeed, get her checked out, but for worms? For witchcraft?

On top of all that punishment in the name of God there comes Debi Pearl telling a woman that whether she uses birth control or not is the decision of her husband.

About birth control

Question:

Dear Pearls,

I have had 4 babies in the last 2 years. I already had 4 other young children. My husband does not share my conviction on trusting God in the area of how many babies we have. He has been very angry because I refuse any use of birth control. I feel so alone sometimes. We are under such a strain. I must admit I dread coming together. My body is shot. My 4 older children are strangers to me and very disobedient. I am so weary from being pregnant, nursing or taking care of sick kids that I dont have anything left to give them. My husband just stays away as much as possible. I dont even know what I am asking except, help.


Answer:

Deb answers,

The Bible clearly teaches that your husband is your head. He has the rule over you. You are to submit to him, obey him, honor him, and never usurp authority over him. I fear you have not submitted, not obeyed, and not honored. You got your conviction someplace other than the Bible. The Bible does not state that it is sin to use natural means to space your children, but it does state it is sin not to obey your husband. He should have the final say in birth control, unless he would employ a method that would abort a fertilized egg. It is your duty to trust God to direct your man.


The women I mentioned who said her church friends use their methods is not a friend, but just someone I was talking with. I don't know which church, but it alarmed me to hear her say it.

These methods just do not sound like something Jesus would do.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. Things like this just infuriate me. These people are right down there with the wife-spankers.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Consensual adult/adult spanking is fine
as long as both parties consent and enjoy it. Whatever turns yer crank. But this stuff is some sick, sadistic shit. Using the gentle teachings of Christ to encourage people to torture their kids into submission is despicable, and ought to be against the law.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. I dunno. Those wives might be consenting to the spankings, but
I personally think it's demeaning to allow your husband to paddle you when you are wrong. Just my two cents.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Who said anything about being wrong?
Some people may use that as their excuse to indulge in spanking play, but it's ultimately all just scenario building. If it's actually demeaning, you're probably doing it wrong. Not that I'd have any personal experience or anything.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I was speaking specifically about these people, which I was reminded of by
the ones described in the OP: http://www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/how_to_discipline.html (The section called "The Application of Discipline to Your Wife")

Sorry I wasn't clearer in my earlier response. Forgot people can't read my mind. :P

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Shallah Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. a salon article on 'Christian Discipline'
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/08/22/christian_discipline/

But then you get into the not-that-fine print. The disavowal of nonconsensual "discipline" is grudging at best ("Though we believe the Bible gives a husband the authority to use spanking as one tool in enforcing his authority in the home with or without his wife's permission, in today's world we recognize the legality that mandates that all CDD must be consensual. Therefore we do not condone nonconsensual CDD as a rule"), leaving the site one lacy loophole away from greenlighting wife beating. (Again, not altogether news news, but sheesh -- always striking to see in print.)

And then there are the blogs http://christiandomesticdiscipline.com/blog.html . If you haven't already started to suspect this from the glossary -- which, for instance, defines "maintenance spanking" as "spankings given in regular intervals for the purpose of maintaining a submissive mindset in a wife, correcting minor faults, and/or reinforcing marital roles" -- the blogs are where it becomes clear that at least some couples who practice CDD are not talking about "discipline"; they're talking about discipline, in ways that, not uncoincidentally, echo those who support spanking as the proper way to "train up" a child http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/05/25/the_pearls/index.html .

Writes Debbie Lee http://debbiesblog.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/ : "I went to the library on Tuesday thinking that everything was just fine and dandy. When I got back my husband told me to send our son out for a walk. I knew something was up because he seldom disciplines me during the day but I could tell from the way he was acting that he was going to do just that. What did I do? I asked -- incredulous that I had managed to mess up that bad while in the library. Come to find out, I had left the burner on the stove and burnt a pan black before my husband noticed it. I could have started a fire! I still can't believe I was that absent minded. The only excuse I can muster is that I was hurrying to make the library before it closed. I couldn't argue that this was exactly the kind of thing a discipline was designed to manage. I was taken into the bedroom and told to lean over the foot of the bed with my knees on the bed."

On her Amazon blog http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Domestic-Discipline-Spanking-Collection/dp/1430309199 , Leah Kelly writes: "I've been having a hard time keeping things in order. My husband thinks a maintenance session might help me get back on track. I have neglected my health as of late and have been a bit ill, followed by an exacerbation of fibromyalgia. I am behind on housework a bit (just a bit -- I've been careful to keep that going). I'm behind on homeschooling. My husband calls these the three H's -- Health, House, Homeschooling. Letting these slide will get me in trouble faster than anything."
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I just posted that link in my reply above. I was absolutely floored the first
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 07:54 PM by GreenPartyVoter
time I saw that site. Unreal!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. Disgusting!
:puke:
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. These people are horrendously sick...
They are using religion as an excuse to live like complete animals.

They treat children like objects and have no respect for them. They condone abuse. They
are sick, sick, sick people who justify their dysfunctional behavior with religion.

How can people be stupid enough to follow this nonsense?

Those poor children.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. I especially like the part where he says if you don't beat your child you are raising a Nazi, since
Hitler's father beat him often, and one of Hitler's defining moments, according to him, was when he swore to himself that he would not cry out when his father beat him next. Instead, he counted the strokes until his father gave up. He considered this a triumph of the will, and that became a major theme in his life.

These vicious animals are EXACTLY the type of people who create Nazis.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. Exactly!
It is those people who are raised in authoritarian families who are attracted to authoritarian politics.
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
58. Either that, or they reject the family values completely.
Penalty for 'going against your raising"? Alienation and no family but a happier life, good self-esteem, and no moral confusion.
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BanzaiBonnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
5. Breaking a child's spirit --- sick
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
6. I stopped reading at "... God hates ..."
A psychological operation?
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. Whipping and Nazis and Jesus
Alois Hitler -- Adolph's father -- regularly whipped him, with an actual whip. Thirty strokes on one occasion, according to his sister Karen Hitler.

Alice Miller, a German psychoanalyst, has made it her life's work to detail this "poisonous pedagogy" that until recently held all of European culture in its grip. It was a long, destructive practice, culminating in Fascism.

The Pearls, http://nospank.net/dobson1.htm">James Dobson, even ex-cute-kid-actress Lisa Welchel are just the cutting edge of the Christian Child Abuse movement in America. BUT ... I have not personally met a Fundy who is an enthusiastic kid-whacker in years, and I live in an area with four major Bible colleges. Many (possibly most) of them are giving up the practice, and there are several anti-abuse Christian child-raising books that preach that "the rod of discipline" is clearly a metaphor. After all, shepherds don't whip their sheep with the rods, the use them to poke the animals on their "shoulders" to make them change direction.

Another change has been the acceptance of spanking as a form of sex play. It is far from a universal form of bedroom fun, but it makes for funny comedy material, so it has been much talked about in recent years. There have also been several incidents of pedophile contact involving spanking, and a couple where the word "spanking" is a drastic understatement. The very idea alone that corporal punishment can sexualize children has led to a greater scrutiny of the practice.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits." The metaphorical fruits in question are very real, very damaged human beings -- by the millions.

--d!
Project NoSpank
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. .
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. I hope so
I posted before I read yours, but yes, there is a real messed up child abuse movement out there that leads to right-wing authoritarianism, similar to what you listed Alice Miller as describing in Europe with fascism. I do hope you are right when you say this movement is changing and giving up that practice, it's horrible all around.
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tmyers09 Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. Wait...BLAIR FROM THE FACTS OF LIFE?!?
HAHAHAHAHA! Who would have thought?

For real, this is some sick shit. I almost turned red reading about physically holding the kid down and beating them. WHat the hell is this, a fucking UFC fight? People should not, under any circumstances, be allowed to do shit like this and then claim innocence through some invisible authority.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
29. One of my wive's friends is a fundy
Oddly enough, she's not a native North Carolinian, but someone who moved here from upstate New York.

Anyway, she does spank, regularly, with her hand. What I found most shocking was the time when, on a play date, she spanked her six-month old baby for crying. Spanking a baby because they are crying? Whoever or whatever their God is, it's not one I want any truck with.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. I honestly don't know what would happen if I was there. It'd turn ugly, fast. -nt
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. And she smiled while she did it, a little guiltily
But pretty much all infractions in her household are spanking infractions. How it is that crying is somehow an infraction, I don't know, but there you have it.

I'd unfriend her if it were up to me, but it's not. She's otherwise nice, and seemingly normal, except for the sex swing and the sex toy tupperware parties, which is a little odd for someone so allegedly pious.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
64. Good info - I think the sister was Paula Hitler though
"Adolf challenged my father to extreme harshness and got his sound thrashing every day. He was a scrubby little rogue, and all attempts of his father to thrash him for his rudeness and to cause him to love the profession of an official of the state were in vain. How often on the other hand did my mother caress him and try to obtain with her kindness where the father could not succeed with harshness ..."

http://www.auschwitz.dk/Paula.htm
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. If only one could arrest these two for abating child and spousal abuse
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
65. I think the word you want is
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 10:16 PM by BlancheSplanchnik
'abetting'. Abate means to reduce; and what they're doing is certainly not reducing abuse.

I want to apologize for being a grammar-nazi, but in this thread, the humor of that feels kind of inappropriate...



anyway, yes, it's truly sickening to see these two gaining fame for spreading this pathological crap.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
9. Reading the spanking narrative, I heard the voice of John Malkovich.
Weird.

--imm
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Tuvok Obama Donating Member (380 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. If I saw someone physically punish a four-month-old baby
I started to say what I'd do to that person, but it's too awful

The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe whipping their own 4 month old daughter (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of "every child" (p.2) for "Christians and non-Christians" (p.5) and for "every transgression" (p.1). Parents who don't whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferent, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are "creating a Nazi" (p.45). On p.60 of the book, they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them "to get up." On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying. On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming. The Pearls recommend pulling a nursing infant's hair (p.7), and describe tripping their non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water (p.67). They recommend ignoring an infant's bumped head when he falls to the floor, and ignoring skinned knees (p.86).


What's the name of that book they're selling? "To Fuck Up A Child"?
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PSzymeczek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. My father
was an excommunicated Mennonite. When I was 9 months old, he knocked me out of my high chair onto a concrete floor because I hadn't eaten enough supper to suit him, even though I was no longer hungry.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 03:09 AM
Response to Original message
12. 'do not sound like something Jesus would do'
may be your MOST understated statement, madfla!

I've never been a believer, and ONE reason is that I decided when young I could not (and how could anyone?) worship or follow any who would 'command' some of the things I read in prayer books (in synagogue.)

I'm sure that your children and mine are and will be better off than those of the others you describe above.

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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
13. I couldn't even finish reading that, it made me sick
I think people like this and Dobson and, to an extent, the home school movement are all about making kids submissive so that they are broken down and always have to follow an authoritarian leader. They need a magic helper like that to tell them what to do, how to think etc etc. It's like they whip a whole right-wing authoritarian army into shape from the time they are born, just so they can grow up and hate all the same things these whackjobs have always hated.
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
66. I think it's a symptom of living in a world of animality
where animality could be described as an instinctual state of fearing the strong and bullying the weak.

I'm thinking this frame of mind is not consciously thought out in terms of seeking a leader to make decisions for them, or to foster future minions. Instead, it's a state of life, permeating thought and emotion, where people are ruled by fear of those stronger, fawning and groveling to those they see as stronger; and in turn, expressing the rage of the trampled onto those weaker.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
14. "Beware of those with a strong urge to punish" . . . !!!
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. Was it Nietzsche or Goethe who said that? I get conflicting search results. -nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
52. Picked that up a long time ago and have no memory of who said it . . .
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 10:23 PM by defendandprotect

Right now can't join you in an internet search -- !!

:)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
55. Gave it a quick check and quote is slightly off . . . it's ...
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 11:34 PM by defendandprotect
Beware of all those in whom the urge to punish is strong

But whether Nietzsche or Goethe I have no idea --

As best I recall I picked it up in a book and it was as I remember it commenting on

our Supreme Court, capital punishment - and their other horrors such as executing the

mentally retarded!


THE URGE TO PUNISH
36k - Microsoft Word - View as html
Beware of all those in whom the urge to punish is strong.' Nietzsche, possibly from Goethe. ... The urge, the instinct, to punish, while to some extent ...
www.howardleaguescotland.org.uk/docs/DrHollowayDec04.doc

THE URGE TO PUNISH Notes on a talk given to the Howard League ...
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THE URGE TO PUNISH. Notes on a talk given to the Howard League ... Beware of all those in whom the urge to punish is strong.' Nietzsche, possibly from Goethe. ...
www.howardleaguescotland.org.uk/docs/DrHollowayDec04.pdf

zx10r cam shaft changes - Sportbike Forum: Sportbike ...
zx10r cam shaft changes Drag Racing ... "Beware of those in whom the urge to punish is strong". ---Johann Wolfgang Goethe. MySpace ...
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
15. A lot more churches use the Ezzo materials, which are just a bad,
but with more of an emphasis on neglect than physical abuse.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. MF, I have a crazy fundy cousin who would think all of this is JUST FINE
She was the one a few years back refused who refused to have an abortion though the baby was dead inside her.

With her last kid, she nearly died and spent the last 3 months in the hospital at the taxpayers expense. Hey, but she wants to have more! I seriously have lost count. Am not sure if it is 5 or 6. No competition for the Duggars, but just as bad.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. When Bush was elected using the religious right....
it was the first time I really realized fully what kind of an area we lived in. First time I realized my family had been taken in so much by the conservative bloggers and writers. It was as though Bush's campaign enabled them to be louder and more annoying.

I knew this was a conservative area, I knew most of my family were Republicans...but it never mattered before. They were educated intelligent people, and we never really disagreed that much. Then came Coulter, Limbaugh, Malkin, etc...and there was a huge divide in our family. I never backed down, still haven't. One wrote me that he was seeing my points now, others still are the same.

Educated intelligent people who still believe in those voices....I make no excuses for them. So much harm has been done to this country supposedly in the name of God.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
18. Sick
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
19. You got an inkling as to why I despise Christianity?
Just reading what this pair of assholes write makes me sick. What angers me further are all the brainless boobs who mindlessly follow this shit. These assholes can do anything they want and as long as they invoke Jesus, it's OK. Truly, you cannot have a working brain in your head and fall for anything as stupid as Christianity.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. these people are not believers in christ message
they USE the bit`s and pieces of the bible to weave an excuse to justify their perversions. these people are mentally ill not spiritually enlightened.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. This has nothing to do with Christ
Maybe they do believe in Christ, but the Old Testament comes first in fundyland.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Conservative Christians as a rule don't believe in Christ's message.
Christ was a pacifist and a communalist. He taught that the rich should give everything to the poor, and that we should love our enemies. What right-wing Christian believes those things?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
61. Hear hear!!!
Me too
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
21. This sounds like a cult.
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
23. "then you have won"
This book should be called "Battle your children, and win!"
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
24. They are documenting and publishing their own crimes?
Fascinating. Why are these people still free - they published a confession, after all?

:shrug:
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
60. exactly...why are they not in jail?
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. That is really puzzling
Freedom of speech is one thing - you can't be put in jail for writing a book or publishing an article, but you certainly can be charged with crimes if you confess to them publically in writing. No one has charged them, apparently.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
25. Institutionalized - Suicidal Tendencies.
Sometimes I try to do things but it just doesn't work out the way I want it to, and I get real frustrated and then like I try hard to do it, and I like, take my time but it just doesn't work out the way I want it to. Its like, I concentrate on it real hard, but it just doesn't work out. And everything I do and everything I try, it never turns out. Its like, I need time to figure these things out, but theres always someone there going hey mike, you know we've been noticing you've been having a lot of problems lately, you know? You need to maybe get away. And like, maybe you should talk about it, you'll feel a lot better. And I'm all like oh, nah, its ok, you know. I'll figure it out. Just leave me alone, I'll figure it out, you know? I'm just working on it by myself. And they go well, you know, if you wanna talk about it, I'll be here, you know? And you'll probably feel a lot better if you talk about it. So why don't you talk about it? I go no, I don't want to! I'm ok. I'll figure it out myself! But they just keep bugging me, they just keep bugging me, and it builds up inside.

So you're gonna be institutionalized. You'll come out brainwashed with bloodshot eyes.
You won't have anything to say. They'll brainwash you until you see their way.

I'm not crazy - institutionalized
You're the one that's crazy - institutionalized
You're driving me crazy - institutionalized
They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution
To give me the needed professional help to protect me from the enemy, myself.

I was in my room and I was just like staring at the wall thinking about everything, but then again I was thinking about nothing. And then my mom came in, and I didn't even know she was there. She called my name and I didn't hear her and then she started screaming Mike, Mike! And I go what? Whats the matter? She goes whats the matter with you? I go theres nothing wrong, mom. Shes all don't tell me that! You're on drugs! I go no mom I'm not on drugs. I'm ok, I'm just thinking, you know? Why don't you get me a Pepsi? She goes No! You're on drugs! I go mom, I'm ok. I'm just thinking. She goes No! You're not thinking, you're on drugs! Normal people don't be acting that way! I go mom, just get me a Pepsi! Please, all I want is a Pepsi! And she wouldn't give it to me! All I wanted was a Pepsi, just one Pepsi, and she wouldn't give it to me! Just a Pepsi!

They give you a white shirt with long sleeves! Tied around your back, you're treated like thieves!
Drug you up because they're lazy! It's too much work to help a crazy!

I'm not crazy - institutionalized
You're the one who's crazy - institutionalized
You're driving me crazy - institutionalized
They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution
To give me the needed professional help, to protect me from the enemy, myself.

I'm sitting in my room, when my mom and my dad came in. they pulled up a chair and they sat down. They go mike, we need to talk to you. And I go ok, whats the matter? They go me and your mom, we've noticed that lately you've been having a lot of problems, and you've been going off for no reason, and we're afraid you're going to hurt somebody, and we're afraid you're going to hurt yourself. So we decided that it would be in you're best interest if we put you somewhere where you could get the help that you need. And I go wait, what are you talking about, WE decided? MY best interests? How do you know what MY best interest is? How can you say what MY best interest is? What are you trying to say? I'M crazy? When I went to YOUR schools, I went to YOUR churches, I went to YOUR institutional learning facilities. So how can you say I'M crazy?

They say they're gonna fix my brain. Alleviate my suffering and my pain.
But by the time they fix my head. Mentally I'll be dead.

I'm not crazy - institutionalized
You're the one who's crazy - institutionalized
You're driving me crazy - institutionalized
They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution
To give me the needed professional help, to protect me from the enemy, myself.

Doesn't matter, I'll probably get hit by a car anyways.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
26. This totally dispels the myth that the human animal is "intelligent". We are no better
than wildebeest or lemmings or any other mammal that blindly follows the one in the front of the herd.

I say "we" fully realizing that some of us do not fall into the herd animal category, but judging from the state of the world, I find no solace in that because the numbers are such a small percentage of the total.

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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. On the contrary.
The vast majority of folks who are not complete nutball dirtbags and who don't do suck stupid destructive shit to their own kids proves that the human animal is intelligent.

It is a common belief that humans have the ability to raise above our animal natures. However, there are some who choose not to do so. These people should be stopped but then pitied.
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
27. This entire thing is horrifying
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
53. Exactly . . . !!!
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Blue Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
31. Takes ya right back...
...to the stone age
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cleverusername Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
34. The cycle continues
I was reared in an abusive home and Alice Miller's work has been very helpful to me. My children have not been hit or mistreated and they are well-adjusted and secure. I broke the cycle. The children reared by these religious nuts will have a long road to break the cycle. I hope that they find the information and support that they need to stop the violence.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
35. It is torture.
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 02:27 PM by juno jones
I'm sure of it. And not hyperbole either.

Physical abuse is commonly used as a form of indoctrination. People are simply more suggestible after having been put thru physical abuse (endorphins might have something to do with it) a fact exploited by torturers, cult fanatics, and players of SM games. The regimen they are endorsing stinks of mind control, all centered on a little jeebus cult as defined by 'daddy'. Debi is probably a 'stockholm syndrome' herself. I think it speaks volumes that this is the kind of childraising some sects endorse. Perhaps I shouldn't say 'sects', CULT sums it up much better in practice.

This stuff is just sick. K&R for sunshine!

On edit: Here's an interesting site which deals with the large-scale societal aftermath of systematic parental abuse of children.

http://www.psychohistory.com/
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
40. How???? How do psychos like this reproduce?????
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 03:40 PM by Initech
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dugaresa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
41. lunatics justifying their bad behavior with the bible
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TheMightyFavog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
43. Wonder what Fromm would have to say about this.
His theories on authoritariaism and sadomasochism seem to fit these "people."
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
44. Here's another I never heard of. A Roy Lessin spanking technique.
I surely must be naive and unaware, but I never knew stuff like this went on so much. A search on this names leads all kinds of places.

http://www.nospank.net/fenimore.htm

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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #44
56. Roy Lessin--you are lower than scum
Only a sick and depraved slimeball could do such evil things to innocent children! If there is a hell, Roy, you belong in its lowest level forever.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
46. SICK! SICK! SICK!!
:mad: :grr: :nuke: :spank: :banghead:
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Shallah Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
48. Please read For Your Own Good by Dr. Alice Miller
For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence
http://www.nospank.net/fyog.htm

Dr. Miller has granted permission for the entire text of her book to be posted at the above website.
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Shallah Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
57. Kathryn Joyce has a chapter on the Pearls in her book on the Quiverfull movement - link
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
59. Those people are so sick and admitted child abusers...
Where the hell is the sheriff? Why are they not in jail?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
62. Well SOMEONE has to train our next generation of serial murderers. nt
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lunasun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
67. Wow I started following some of those links on this spanking trend
These people are freaks in many ways

Jesus Christ check this out>http://stores.lulu.com/rebeckahmarkham
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 02:08 AM
Response to Original message
68. That kind of abuse can have two harmful results (aside from the obvious physical injuries)
1. A child who grows up angry and bitter and eager to hurt someone.

2. A child who grows up with no self-esteem whatsoever and lets people walk all over him/her.
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