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Conventional wisdom has it that anti-war demonstrations caused US politicians to end the Vietnam War

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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:26 PM
Original message
Conventional wisdom has it that anti-war demonstrations caused US politicians to end the Vietnam War
But did they really? Considering events since 2003, I wonder.



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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nothing is the same since Bush's 8 years of terror though... Not sure if it...
was anti war demonstrations back then or not. More likely the fact that the US Administration realized that they could not win in Vietnam, something they should realize about Afghanistan.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Back then the "whole world was watching"
Today, they have American Idol instead...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Media consolidation.
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cowcommander Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. I've always been under the impression that it was because of the Tet Offensive
That single event did more to cripple support for the war than any of the anti-war demonstrations did.
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billyclem Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Reply to cowcommander about TET
You are correct that it was the impression about TET, not the actual outcome that made the difference. The reporting, primarily by Cronkite, that TET was a US failure fortified the North Vietnamese and discouraged the US populace.

At the time of TET I was serving on Navy PBR's on the rivers and canals of the Mekong Delta. We and the others in that area, the Marines, Army 9th Infantry(if I remember correctly) fought long and hard. Casualty rates skyrocketed but we won. Yes we won. The VietCong were finished. It wasn't until that first tour was over and I returned home at the end of May that I found out how TET had been reported. I was certainly confused and bitter because I could not understand how that could have happened. Forty years later, even though I have gone through many changes, there is still some bitterness.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. They had to blame it on somebody, It was basically doomed from the
start, but that would have been too hard to admit after all the troops were killed & all the treasure wasted.
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Tikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. When the Grandmothers and Mothers pushing strollers joined...
the marches...that was the end.

Tikki
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. Burning Buddhist Monk on steps of capital building too.
Horrible image.
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Nicholas D Wolfwood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. If they did, it took nearly a decade for the effect to take hold.
So, no, I really don't think that was true at all.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. +1
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. Tet 31 Jan. '68
Edited on Wed Dec-02-09 01:07 PM by era veteran
War over 30 April 1975. We won Tet on the battlefield. The Viet Cong ceased to exist as a fighting unit. The communist massacred over a 1000 civilians in Hue. Even though we won the battle we lost. Terrible times & my emotions may never come to grips with this war. On 30 April 1975 I was in a cocktail meeting with all the NCO's at our Kaserne , The Rock, in W germany. The Sergeant Major of the Army was the speaker. He was there to prep us for a visit by President Ford. After the talk and during the drinking part the TV at the bar turned on. Pictures of that helicopter on our embassy roof flooded the room. All E-6's and above had been to Vietnam at least once. All emotions flooded that room. Older men than me crying and some throwing their medals at the TV. A memory which will never leave. The anti-war demonstrations certainly did have an effect on ending the war but these would not have happened if their had not been a draft. Universal Draft Now Peace, Richard
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. Back then there were not lonly massive street demonstrations which
as I remember seemed to be continuously covered on Television.

At University and Colleges teach ins sit ins

Flaring up in the background was Weathermen Underground--bombing
something every now and again.

Mixed with this was the Protests for Civil Rights with real real
riots in major large cities.

The volume could be deafening. Activists would be on Televsion.

The Intensity was immeasureable.

These things were happening simultaneously all over the country.

Intensity counts.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. The anti-war demonstations were very constant
with the draft, people were more motivated probably.

The protests for the current wars are sporadic and don't go on for days.
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Frank Cannon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. It was demonstrations + more reliable news + THE DRAFT that ended it
Which is why the "D" word never leaves a politician's lips, and why the Pentagon just fills the ranks with contractors and volunteers as best they can. And why they send soldiers back into fire over and over and over and over again.

And they will continue to run things this way.
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. I think a big difference too
between then and now was the vets that were getting out when their tours were up and then joining the antiwar movement helped to turn the tide. Now they have too many of them stop-lossed and constantly deployed so thy can't do that this time around. It appears that the war machine actually did learn something from Vietnam, they just learned the wrong lesson :(
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Yes
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
14. Not as much as thought
Back then, though, we didn't have "embedded reporters" whose reports were carefully scrubbed before being sent back to the states. People actually saw what was going on, instead of just second-hand reports, and that's what eroded support for the war more than anything else.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. Conventional wisdom is conventional, but not wise
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NYC Democrat Donating Member (234 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
17. uhhh no if that were true we would have out of Vietnam much sooner.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. The Vietnamese won it.
Having lived through it all, as a young person who marched against it in the first big anti-war demonstration in 1967, I can tell you that the only thing we accomplished, with ten years of ever-increasing anti-war efforts, across the board in American society--including, for instance, Jesuit priests pouring blood on Draft records, and a retired AF jet pilot friend of mine deciding to go to Canada if they called him out of retirement--was Nixon's decision, well into the war, NOT to use nuclear weapons on the Vietnamese.

The war continued for ten years, no matter what we did, ultimately slaughtering two million people in Southeast Asia and over 55,000 US soldiers. The sentiment then among many warmongers and war profiteers was that the US should "nuke 'em back to the stone age." It is quite arguably the massive anti-war protests in Washington DC (and around the country) that stayed Nixon's hand on using nukes. Nukes are the only weapons that could have beaten the Vietnamese, a people on fire with a passion for independence and a 5,000 year history of defending it. It would not have been any kind of "victory," though, and may well have brought down the US empire, then and there (if not the planet itself).

When the Vietnamese finally won it, against the biggest war machine in the world, my generation was exhausted and in disarray, and failed to follow up on what the next step should have been: dismantling of the US war machine, reducing it to defense of our borders and removing the temptation to tyrants to use our standing army and war machine for ill purposes. I think we put up a noble battle against one of the most unjust wars in history, but we failed in the decade that followed to address the fundamental problem--the escalating power of war profiteers and global corporate predators over our government.

I also think we scared the beejeebers out of our war profiteers and corporate predators--a generation revolting against war and against being used as cannon fodder in senseless and unjust wars--and they were very careful, for several decades, about overt use of the US war machine as the pre-emptive tool of US foreign policy. It became known in war profiteer circles as "the Vietnam syndrome"--that Americans would not tolerate being drafted into unjust wars. One of the goals of the "Project For A New American Century" signatories--who brought us the Iraq War--was to reverse that "syndrome" and motivate Americans to be willing killers in a scheme of world domination including grabbing control of the world's last oil reserves. This is one reason why the suspicion that the Bush junta permitted or implemented 9/11 will not go away. They stated in their PNAC document that they needed a "new Pearl Harbor" to mobilize the American people behind their scheme of world domination, and 9/11 fit that requirement to a T, in a much too convenient fashion.

I would say that the "nightmare of my generation" has come true: Tyrants did, in fact, reverse "the Vietnam syndrome" and did, in fact, hijack the US military for purposes of world domination. It is a nightmare that we were unable to prevent, though many people kept trying, including those who successfully lobbied Congress, for instance, to prevent the president from waging a war on Nicaragua in the 1980s. The "Vietnam syndrome" drove our war profiteers into covert wars--such as the Reagan horrors in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala and Nicaragua during that era. The US-funded/organized war on Nicaragua was blatantly ILLEGAL, but the result was mere handslaps from the Democratic Congress. Having gotten away with that, the war profiteers ventured further, at first with "little wars" (such as Grenada and Panama) with experiments in "embedding" news reporters and presenting the war as a sort of video game on TV. (A free press was rather a big factor in mobilizing my generation against the Vietnam War--and that, too, has been dispensed with.) They then succeeded in enticing Saddam Hussein (a Bush Cartel ally to whom they had sold chemical weapons) into invading Kuwait and began upgrading the US war machine for bigger plans, which unfolded a decade later.

The Clinton administration, unfortunately, helped them prep the final Iraq oil grab (and slaughter of about a million people) through perimeter bombings (Iraq had no air defense by the time the Bushwhacks bombed Baghdad) and devastating sanctions (erasing Iraq's relative prosperity), and also laid the "neo-liberal" ("free trade for the rich") ground work for the mindboggling plunder and looting of the US economy by the Bush junta.

My generation was denied the leadership of peace-minded, social justice-minded Democratic presidents, JFK and RFK, by means of assassination. The current generation was denied the leadership of peace-minded, social justice-minded Democratic presidents, Al Gore and John Kerry, by means of election fraud, apparently by consensus of our national overt and covert political establishment, which is now in total thrall to the "military-industrial complex" that President Eisenhower, in his final days in office, warned us against. He said that the MIC would destroy our democracy if we were not vigilant. The '60s generation tried to be "vigilant," but we were overwhelmed. And now, as then, the people of the world cannot count on the American people to prevent wars of aggression against them. We are far less powerful now than we were then, and we could not stop a horribly unjust and genocidal war then, for all our ten years of non-stop protest.

Remedy (from this ever hopeful anti-war activist of the '60s): First and foremost, GET RID OF THE 'TRADE SECRET' CODE VOTING MACHINES! Those were the instruments of affirming a rightwing coup in 2004, and are responsible for the paralysis of our Democratic Party leaders now, apparently by their own consent. We cannot even begin to reform our country if a handful of rightwing corporations are counting all our votes with 'TRADE SECRET' code and virtually no audit/recount controls. We MUST restore transparent vote counting, the fundamental condition for empowering leaders who truly represent the interests of the American people.

It's going to be a long hard road back to democracy BECAUSE OF the failure of my generation to deal with certain grave matters back in the 1960s and 1970s, combined with the determination of our war profiteers and global corporate predators to enrich themselves and dominate the world at our expense. To undo the tragedy that our country is enacting, we MUST recognize that the fundamental conditions for democracy do not exist here any more, and we MUST restore those conditions, starting with the vote counting system. The vote counting systems currently remain under state and local jurisdictions, which are more subject to the pressure of ordinary citizens, so there is still hope that this can be changed by citizen effort.

I was personally demoralized by the events of the 1960s and 1970s--the assassinations of our most progressive leaders, JFK, RFK and MLK, within the space of five years--and the continued horror in Vietnam. It was a tumultuous time and I was barely out of my teens--as was true of many anti-war activists and young men facing the Draft. We were a "rudely awakened" generation--awakened out of the slumber and more hidden injustices of the 1950s--and thrown into radical ferment by the corrupt and murderous actions of our elders. It is no wonder that we could not defeat the war machine, and that it, instead, defeated us, in the end. I try to forgive myself for becoming demoralized and pretty much burying my head in the sand for a couple of decades. But it is difficult. If only we had fought harder, and more persistently, on fundamental issues, such as the out-of-control war profiteering, preservation of a free press and honest, aboveboard elections with campaigns funded by our taxes not by corporations and the super-rich!

The regrets of an older person--true--but they do contain lessons for the young. Know what you're up against. Really know it. Don't let yourself be fooled by delusions of democracy. Effective strategy and ultimate success depend on fully understanding what you are fighting. Open your eyes. See it all, and decide where best to put your energy to restore democracy in the US and save our country. Don't be led astray into side fights. Go for the fundamentals of true democracy and citizen power. Stick together on those and do not give up! The people of Latin America are doing just this, and are succeeding at it--and they have suffered a lot more than we have, from both US militarism and corporate rule. Leftist governments have been ELECTED in Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay, Paraguay, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Guatemala--and they are furthermore sticking together in a challenge to US domination and assertion of their sovereignty and independence. If the Latin Americans can do it, so can we.

And know, too, that one of the chief methods of control being used against us is inducing feelings of powerlessness and isolation, for one thing, by nonstop 24/7 corpo-fascist "messaging" in all media, and for another, by manipulations of the election system including outright theft of elections and installation of "Blue Dog" Democrats, as a blockade to any real reform. It is no accident that the people vote time and again for peace, and get war. And that is VERY demoralizing, as I believe it is intended to be. We need to fight demoralization, such as I and others personally suffered in the 1970s and '80s. That was our biggest failure--giving in to feelings of powerlessness.
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I agree with much you say except the idea of nuclear weapons use
No targets except Hanoi and Haiphong, unless you are referring to small tactical nukes. I never heard any talk/rumors on the use of them. I really enjoyed your post. Those times, so long ago, but still so vivid. We obviously learned nothing as a people.
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