Tonight is why I voted for him.

[cliffordu]

He understands there is no quick fix. And no walking away from something we helped completely fuck up.

He is willing to do this difficult thing. Or at least try.

+++++++++++++++


I think it's too late, though. I think we are too far down the extremist partisan shithole (on both sides of the isle) to recover any decent sense of national self, any healthy national identity.

Too far gone to understand when some sacrifice is necessary, some commitments need to be fulfilled, and there are places and situations in this world that cannot be taken back to Customer Service for a refund like a pair of jeans that makes our ass look big.


This is a crying shame as far as I'm concerned: In spite of one year of his best effort to stop a worldwide financial collapse, extract us from Iraq, and now finish the job - yes I said it - by giving the country we've been tearing apart for 8 years JUST two years of real effort towards some kind of stability, some kind of future without becoming a total narco state, or another Somalia, that he is reviled like the men that started this fucked, fucking adventure.

It's disgusting.


Let's get something straight:

I hate this war. I hate these fucking wars with the same fury I that hated the war in VietNam.

I know what the price is for these kinds of adventures. But I know the prices others will pay if we just walk away, too.


I hate this war but I cannot advocate leaving these people to their own devices after COMPLETELY destroying their 9th century infrastructure.

And that is the ONLY reason I back the President in this. We have to leave them something other than weapons and the greatest narcotics business in the world.

+++++++

If we turn our backs on what we allowed to fester in place for 8 years, if we walk away without at least TRYING to set right what the NEOCONS 'achieved', then there is little hope for us, I think.

It means that we have no more honor, we have no business in the affairs of the world of any import. That our word is no fucking good.

I would hope that at this late date we are better than that, that some things are worth the debt, the effort, the blood. That maybe we CAN leave things better than the NEOCONS left them when they left town in the middle of the night like the sociopathic carpetbaggers they are.

We, as Democrats, are supposed to be different than that.

++++++++++++++


This latest gambit will likely fail. Afghanistan is by all available evidence the Sword of Damocles wrapped in a Gordian knot.

We as a country are too broke, and as a people are unwilling to serve any interest but our own, most of the time.

But we do have to TRY to set this right. We have to.

Or the sacrifice of every soldier who died is a waste, every civilian in Afghanistan who believed in us has to become an acceptable casualty when we are gone.

And that we are not to be trusted to serve any interest but our own capricious adventures, Our own immediate self interest.

Even at this late date I cannot believe that is we have degenerated that far.

And if we have, we are just like the fucking NEOCONS:

We'll fuck your shit up and then leave town. Just like they did with the economy, New Orleans, both Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Bluerthanblue]

1. uncomfortable words- but probably pretty accurate.

K&R

[cliffordu]

3. Thank you.

[Bluerthanblue]

24. no, thank YOU-

for saying what you did, so well.
:hi:

[Gnome Sane]

147. Great Stuff...

Way to nail it, Cliffordu...As much as I loathe the thought of more war...there are predicates, and logic to this Prez's decision. I was in 'Nam in '68...Joined the VVAW...and continue to wax optimistic.

[Maraya1969]

258. Welcome to DU Gnome!

:yourock:

[cliffordu]

361. Thanks, and welcome to DU!!!! The more vets, the better!

[Patchuli]

496. Welcome Gnome!

And thank you for your service... :patriot:

[pjt7]

189. Obama is owned by the same people

you hate.

pathetic.

[Bluerthanblue]

388. wth??? you talkin to me?

i don't think so-

:hi:

[mikekohr]

478. Outstanding! Bravo!!!!

mike kohr

[C_Lawyer09]

2. What a profoundly stated post

Couldn't add much to that. It is what it is, and we can only do what we can. My only caveat is, that unlike Vietnam, at that time, the risk of allowing failed states to become terrorist controlled havens risks not only our national security, but world national security.

[cliffordu]

78. Yep.

[bevoette]

4. good post, and dead on (nm)

[cliffordu]

8. Thank you.

[NYC_SKP]

5. I have the greatest respect for our veterans, cliffordu. K and R.

If this shit was easy, well, it's a fucking mess.

And fuck this bullshit "It's Obama's War".

I guess it's his to end, but fuck anyone who says he's doing anything else than cleaning up an inherited fuckstorm.

Whatever.

I've got your back.

[cliffordu]

6. Thank you, my good and dear friend.

[Sebass1271]

7. Thank YOu.

I admire your honesty and foresight.

[ginnyinWI]

9. He's a very brave man.

It's about being a grown-up, responsible head of state. He won't "cut and run". He will stay and try to salvage our reputation in the world community, even though he personally didn't create this mess. Cleaning up the elephant crap. And all the while Cheney, our mentally ill ex-veep can only boo from the bleachers and take no responsibility whatever for what he helped destroy.

But back to brave. Obama is brave because he is doing what is right despite criticism from the left flank as well as the far right. He's going to try to get it right no matter what.

It's so easy to say "No more war, war is bad, get out now." But then what happens in that failed state? And Pakistan right next door? I think there is a case to be made for helping them out and preventing the wrong factions from taking hold again.

[cliffordu]

12. Yep - precisely.

[impik]

159. Yep. And you can see how much he hates this whole thing

How much all he wanted was to reform health care, reform education, build new economy, all those "hope" things. But they just left him with so much garbage to clean. It's heartbreaking.

[apnu]

261. Shit, I don't care about our reputation, its toast. I care about putting Afghanistan back together.

It is very important that we fix it, we broke it, we own it, and now that the adults are in charge, we should fix it. We owe it to the Afghan people to give them a functional country back.

[pmorlan1]

502. Fixing Afghanistan is NOT Part of Obama's Agenda

Shit, I don't care about our reputation, its toast. I care about putting Afghanistan back together.
Posted by apnu

It is very important that we fix it, we broke it, we own it, and now that the adults are in charge, we should fix it. We owe it to the Afghan people to give them a functional country back.

But that's not what Obama said. You ought to check out today's Greenwald's column.

Here's a snippet

As Ben Smith correctly notes, Obama did not even mention -- let alone hype -- the issue of women's rights in Afghanistan. There were no grandiose claims that the justness of the war derives from our desire to defeat evil, tyrannical extremists and replace them with more humane and democratic leaders. To the contrary, he was commendably blunt that our true goal is not to improve the lives of Afghan citizens but rather: "Our overarching goal remains the same: to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaeda." There were no promises to guarantee freedom and human rights to the Afghan people. To the contrary, he explicitly rejected a mission of broad nation-building "because it sets goals that are beyond what can be achieved at a reasonable cost and what we need to achieve to secure our interests"; he said he "refuse to set goals that go beyond our responsibility, our means, or our interests"; and even vowed to incorporate the convertible factions of the Taliban into the government.

Not only did he refrain from those manipulative appeals, he made explicitly clear that we are in Afghanistan to serve our own interests (as he perceives them), not to build a better nation for Afghans. Nation-building, he said, goes "beyond ... what we need to achieve to secure our interests" and "go beyond our responsibility." We're there to serve our interests and do nothing else. That should throw cold water on all on the preening fantasies of all but the blindest and most naive "liberal war supporters" that we're there to help the Afghan people.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/12/02/obama/index.html

[fascisthunter]

267. yeah... he's a brave man for sending others off to a foreign country

to die.

[treestar]

296. That statement would have applied equally to Truman

and FDR and Churchill.

That's saying we can never send troops out to die. We only do it because we think civilians would die if we didn't.

Your statement says we can never do it.

[cliffordu]

364. What about sending them off to build??

More than half of them are going to do just that, but you won't comment on that, will you??

[fascisthunter]

419. ahhh.. sorry, I'm against "Nation Building"

and this isn't about the people there, it's about a pipeline. If you come from the point of view that this is a good thing, well then, we will have to disagree.

Also, now that I think of it, your response to me was ridiculous.... I was responding to the "Brave" part. Sorry, but sending others into danger is NOT brave. What's brave are the soldiers who do as they are told to do... they are the brave ones, who trusts the decisions of mere mortals.

[cliffordu]

420. What about nation repair?

just undo the damage to the craptastic infrastructure we destroyed.

I marvel at how little the Afghani people matter - in real world terms - to people who are supposed to be liberal democrats.

Confounding.

[fascisthunter]

435. Not my country... and we have done enough damage as it is

That's how I know this isn't about humanitarianism, so sorry, but that line isn't going to work on me. I also met several Afghanis in Germany, and they told me most Afghanis like Americans, they just hate our government for making things worse than they already were. Yes, I'm a liberal and I Am Proud to be against this occupation. You won't guilt me into changing my mind, because I know the truth is opposite of what you claim this occupation is about.

don't be confounded, you just made a bad assumption. I do care, that's why i want the US to leave.

[cliffordu]

441. What happens to the people that allied themselves with our effort??

back to Kabul Sports Complex and youtube violence porn???

[fascisthunter]

442. you want to know what happens? They FIGHT for themselves

like Americans did! THAT'S how democracy started, and that's why it spread far and wide. It's their country, not ours.

Democracy has to be voluntary in order to have a chance.

[RaleighNCDUer]

545. One word.

Cambodia.

[RaleighNCDUer]

544. Infrastructure building is not nation building.

Nation building is the creation of political tools that support the development of a functioning civil sector. That is the Afghans' job.

But it's fucking hard to think about developing political structures when you have no fresh water, when sewage is flowing in the streets, when there are no roads, no power, and 10% of the people have no shelter.

And it is hard to build those infrastructures when people are shooting at you.

That's what the first order of business is creating sectors that work, security bubbles if you will, where people are NOT shooting at you. In those places, infrastructure can be rebuilt. And from those secure places will come the people able to develop their own nation.

And it is NOT about any fucking pipeline - any close look at the costs will show that it is much more profitable to not have a fucking insurgency going on where any pipelines are going to be continually sabotaged. We very rightly dismissed the notion that the Iraq war would pay for itself with oil revenues - so how can we claim that a pipeline is the driving force behind this? How many decades will it take to be profitable? it's bullshit.

[fascisthunter]

566. sorry, but it is over a pipeline

and even if it weren't, it's still not our business. The reasons for the crumbling infrastructire is due to other countries going into their and fucking things up more and more. And people wonder why there are so many extremists in the Middle East.

And yes, they want to rebuild infrasture and bring security to the area to be able to build a pipeline. Until they do so, there will be no pipeline, and that's why we are there.

[winyanstaz]

525. and would Obama send his own kids off to war? I don't think so

Its always other people's kids that go die in these wars.

[RaleighNCDUer]

561. If his girls were to sign up to serve I'm sure he'd be proud of them.

But that's not going to happen because these wars will be long over before they're eligible. He's seeing to that.

[winyanstaz]

599. Riiiight :) ....

[ginnyinWI]

560. just curious:

Is there any reason you would approve of sending American troops to fight on foreign soil?


We have alliances all over the world, otherwise known as diplomatic relationships--friendships, actually. Where do we draw the line when one of them needs us?

[quiet.american]

10. Thanks for having the patience to put into words what I'm too frustrated to say. Well done. nt

[cliffordu]

14. Thanks.

[WildEyedLiberal]

11. Great post K&R

[bigtree]

13. I think that, overall, we've hurt more than we've helped

I don't think doing more of that is the answer. WE are the main disruptor in Afghanistan. Our troops are targets and their offensive activity against Afghanistan's Taliban is just going to create even more resistance (which the president represents as akin to al-Qaeda). All of this with no clear prospect of positively affecting ANY of the unrest and agitation in Pakistan. Our grudging military mission against the remnants and ghosts of al-Qaeda will NEVER be in the security of stability interests of either Afghanistan or Pakistan.

[cliffordu]

23. Look -

Three brigades are combat troops and the rest are construction/trainer/educators.

I think he understands that we have to leave it better than Bush left it, and I also think he knows he has to use the tough guy rhetoric to give the fucking 'liberal' media something to chew over.

CNN won't talk about a bunch of fucking schoolteachers.

Like I said, I believe the effort is doomed, but we really have to try.

[Vattel]

71. So you believe we should sacrifice the lives of our soldiers

for a doomed effort? Gotta disagree with you there.

[cliffordu]

That's fine.

I also said some things HAVE to be attempted no matter the odds.

[parasearchers]

130. Agree, spot on, a DOOMED effort

[TankLV]

506. WE didn't "sacrifice" them - BUSH* and the REPUKES did...!!!

Sorry, but what they are doing has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this country's security or protection.

Ouf soldiers fighting there is a WASTE of their lives and our treasure.

Sorry, but the only solution is to get them HOME - YESTERDAY!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. +1

[Chan790]

136. Neither is leaving at this point...

withdrawal will be viewed by these same unstabilizing-parties as victory.

This is a victory we cannot allow them to have if we want them to remain beaten and scattered to the wind. A lesson learned from action films...when your enemy's hanging on for dear life, you stomp on his fingers and make sure that bad-guy falls to the alligators in the river 1000's of feet below; sure, you can try to save him or walk away but then he ambushes you and flings you over the edge. If we leave, the Taliban will return to power, our allies will be slaughtered in the streets as infidels and regardless of what the pre-9/11 relationship was between the Taliban and Al-Qaeda was, we've certainly pushed them together as strange bedfellows. A recoup of power by either will institutionalize both within that region. Staying radicalizes yet more individuals. Obama inherited a clusterfuck.

While I have great respect for your POV, it's too late for it. It's the answer to "Should we go to Afghanistan in the first-place and what will be the outcomes?", a question nobody asked. At this point, it's simply too late...the die is cast, we've crossed the Rubicon. It's our mess to end properly. The "peace and withdrawal" solution isn't on the table, nor should it be because it's completely unworkable. We make the best of bad situations and choose the least shitty solutions because that is all that has been left to us, what we cannot fail to do is make sure we lay all blame at the feet of those responsible in the first place.

[goclark]

263. Absolutely nt

[The Wielding Truth]

277. Wouldn't the terms of us leaving determine if we win or lose?

If our terms would depend on the Afghan state be absolute hard line deterrents of a Taliban uprising, then we would extract some sort of assistance. It might make them stand against the Taliban and keep their government from weakening.

[Duende azul]

305. You want victory?

With every civilian you kill in Afghanistan, there will be family members left who turn against you.
So unless you are willing to commit a wholescale genocide, there may be no option to leave victoriously.
With the line of thinking you are defending the US will never leave. And the longer you stay, the greater the victory "these same unstabilizing-parties" can claim.
In the end they will have more followers recruited.

You (as a nation) will have far more blood on your hands.
You will have more of your sons and daughters lost.
You will have more veterans come home with serious hurt physically and psychologically. And not all of them will wind up at DU, where they are respected and can find someone who relates to their pain. And DU can't heal everything.
You will have a far greater number of people with serious disorders who have already killed roaming your streets. The streets of a nation where guns are easily available.
And the thought of the completely unaccountable thugs who work for your "civilian" contractors is mindnumbing.
Your country will go more bankrupt then it is already (if that is possible).

This list could go on and on. To keep it short:

You have a point that this is a no-win situation or as you say a clusterfuck.
The only wise though uncomfortable move would be to cut your losses. Out now.

And the chance of leaving perhaps even winning was blown, when the democrats denied to prosecute the warcriminals who started the mess.
The world seeing the US going after their own criminals - imagine that.
That would have send a powerful message of real will to change.
And if you add the possibility of reparations to the destroyed countries - who knows what would have come out of that.

I think the momentum was clearly there. And it wasn't partisan nor was it bipartisan.
Let's call it transpartisan. It was palatable even abroad.

But it was soon drowned in bipartisanshit and appointments of the usual suspects.

The choices Obama was left with until yesterday:
leave now and cut the losses, blaim the mess on the real culprits
or
stay unlimited with greater loss and in the end hold the bag alone. And be complicit in the guilt. Perhaps this will weigh in Obama more than one can imagine because he is a sensible empathic human being, not a sociopath fuckup like his predecessor.
Now that ship has sailed.

[MissDeeds]

140. Well said n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

152. Your first sentence says it - we HAVE hurt more than we HAVE helped.

Obama is not bush. He has a plan, a strategy, and a timetable. It is time to try to undo the more egregious mistakes made under bush and then get out - but pulling out now will leave them with ONLY the bush legacy.

There are moderate Taliban who are looking for reconcilliation, and radical Taliban who want only to regain total power (something they didn't even have when they were IN power). By stabilizing the security situation, dealing with those who will deal, and marginalizing those who won't; by keeping pressure on AQ and the radical Taliban on this side of the border so that Pakistan's efforts on that side of the porous border are not wasted; by providing training to the Afghan national army and police based on a professional military model rather than a CIA School of the Americas model; by providing economic alternatives to the poppy farmers; we can leave them with a chance at avoiding Afghanistan becoming Somalia.

So who cares about Somalia? The difference being, Somalia is surrounded by other 3rd world nations. Afghanistan has nuclear powers on 3 borders. It is easy to envision a Taliban controlled Afghanistan giving assistance to radicals in Kashmir, culminating with a nuclear exchange between Islamabad and New Dehli.

This is not a 'dominoes' scenario. It is a very real assessment - and far likelier than any terrorists getting their hands on nukes. A chaotic Afghanistan destabilizes an already wobbly Pakistan, which can't control radicals getting involved in Kashmir, causing a conflict between Pakistan and India - what do you think the intent of the Mumbai terrorist attack was last year?

We broke it - now we need to fix it, or at least give them the tools and time to fix it themselves before we abandon them as we did in '91.

[kristopher]

156. +1.

[NYC_SKP]

432. +1 We need more OPs like this replie. n/t

[truedelphi]

353. Well said. Thanks. n/t

[eqfan592]

15. After reading some of the so-called "peace" posts on this forum...

...your post damn near made me want to cheer. I'm glad to see I'm not the only person on here that feels the same way you do.

I was involved in the peace movement against the Iraq war, and I'd still do it today if I had to. But something I realized is that many of the people in that movement are struck with the same drooling-mouthed zealotry that afflicts many members of the conservative, pro-war movement. They've lost the capability for rational thought when it comes to the issue of war, and concepts like honor are something to be spat on.

And of course, if you don't agree with them 100%, you're a "warmonger." Fuck those people, and fuck their drooling-mouthed zealotry.

[AllyCat]

91. Thank you very much for the compliment. Sorry you hate people who don't want to kill so much.

[ima_sinnic]

104. aww, a "former" peacenik. Is that like a "former" democrat?

so happy you've looked into the eyes of "the peace movement" and found its soul to be "the same drooling-mouth zealotry." You will surely be missed at the peace rallies--your commitment to peace is SOOOO huge. So nice you've found your niche in life, cheerleading certain wars that "the peace movement" must somehow misunderstand and lacks "the honor" to appreciate and even fight in.
Yes, murder and mayhem are "honorable," so when are you signing up?

[Bette Noir]

111. For a presumed peacenik, you sure have a nasty mouth.

Flies and honey, you know.

[ima_sinnic]

112. excuse me? yeah, I always treat BS artists with "honey"

but I reread my post a couple of times and fail to see what could be judged as being "a nasty mouth." Did you reply to the wrong poster? Or did my post touch a nerve, eh?

I thought maybe I had put some offensive, off-color swear words in it but really see nothing like that. I am perfectly within my rights to tell the poster exactly what I think of it, b/c I am the one being dissed by its post as a "drooling-mouth zealot." Is that not nasty? I should just laugh it off and say, here, have some honey, sweetie?

[eqfan592]

427. Sounds like you're projecting

I never stated that I thought ALL members of the peace movement were drooling-mouthed zealots, only that "many" were. I didn't even say that a majority were. Seems to me like you placed yourself in that group, not I, which would be projecting to a degree I believe.

[eqfan592]

202. Thank you and the above poster for proving my point so clearly. (nt)

[ima_sinnic]

230. your "point"? of calling people in "the peace movement" drooling zealots?

I don't think I drooled in my post or acted "zealous." I do have a really huge dislike of fucking hypocrites, though. You obviously do not belong around "the peace movement" since you have no understanding of it whatsoever, no real desire for peace (peace isn't some shade of gray between wars you don't like and others you "approve of." Peace means lack of war--so you are not "for" peace) and regard those who are disparagingly.

But I give you way too much credit by taking your words so seriously. As I said, a "former" peacenik is analagous to the mythical "former" Democrat who wrote all those LTTEs during the 2008 election saying he could no longer vote Democratic--as though the values of the Democratic Party are some superficial little list of talking points that nobody really believes in and can adopt or throw off at will. You're either for peace or for war, so stop the bullshit about how you USED to be "for peace." Only phonies and mentally disturbed people like David Horowitz "convert" from being leftist to cheerleading for war.

[uppityperson]

375. "many" does not = "all". Many are zealots. Some are not. Like always.

[RaleighNCDUer]

546. It is astonishingly easy to be for peace

when it is not YOUR door being kicked in and not YOUR father being dragged out onto the street to be shot. When it is not YOUR daughter being beaten to death for going to school. When it is not YOUR mother getting her finger cut off because she dared to vote and bore the mark of it.

[fascisthunter]

265. pretty extreme statement regarding anti-war activists

Zealots, because we don't go-along to get along is quite the opposite. Look in the mirror...

[uppityperson]

376. "many" does not = "all". nt

[pjt7]

407. What do blood-thirsty war mongers look like?

eom

[uppityperson]

564. Poor logic again.

and poorly written. "eom" or "nt" goes in subject line for a purpose. Putting it in an empty message is rather redundant since obviously that is the end of the message.

[NoSheep]

134. ditto. What I hear sounds just like freepers, they have to make up lies to back up

their opinions. The first and biggest being that Obama is equal to George Bush. Amazing isn't it?

[moodforaday]

201. Show me the lies

Show me the lies coming from the (real) peace movement. Show me one big lie worthy of a freeper.

On the other hand...

"The first and biggest being that Obama is equal to George Bush"

This is not a lie. It's an expression of opinion. It is neither true nor false, and you're free to disagree. In the end, it doesn't matter if Obama "is like" Bush. What matters is what he chooses to do.

What's true then is that Obama has chosen to continue Bush's wars, to send more troops and drop more bombs. What's also true is that Obama is supporting his choice with arguments not unlike Bush's, even if they are phrased in better English and without the smirk.

[cliffordu]

367. I'd be kicking people off this board for that if I were in charge.

disgusting.

[moodforaday]

193. Honor in killing innocents?

"They've lost the capability for rational thought when it comes to the issue of war"

Oh, tell me what's rational about war, about killing people, about increasing the military budget year after year. Tell me all you've learned from Henry Kissinger, another Nobel Peace Prizer.

"...and concepts like honor are something to be spat on"

So when the choice is between honor (better described as saving face) on the one hand, and bombing innocent men, women and children on the other, you choose your "honor"? Really?

There are a few words for such an attitude, among which "jingoist" is one of the kindest.

[eqfan592]

203. Be mindfull of the drool around your keyboard.

Reliance on straw-man arguments is a sign of either a weak mind or a weak rationalization, and sometimes both.

[moodforaday]

238. Is ad-personam all you have left?

That's an argument from a thinking adult if I've ever seen one. I'd say you've just lost the argument, but you had none to begin with. There is no way to justify more war, it just can't be done, ever.

[eqfan592]

426. You came at me with a ridiculously massive straw man argument...

...and you wanted something of substance in return? Kiss. My. Fat. Arse.

If you want to debate and discuss, I'm all for it. If you want to spout off insulting straw man arguments, then I'll call you out for it, hence the "drool," as in "drooling mouthed zealot with little substantive to offer to the discussion."

Forming a rational argument is more than using "big words." Just because you know what "ad-personam" means doesn't mean you know your arse from a hole in the ground.

[Kajsa]

195. And it really sucks when one ( who I shall not name-no "calling out" per DU rules)

damn near has a fan club here, all the while plugging his book/book tour.

[pjt7]

221. Who?

Obama is dropping more bombs,why hold back on this?

[Kajsa]

374. Can't name names openly on the board.

I'm not "holding back".

It's considered "calling out" members and it's against
DU rules.

Not gonna do it.

Not too many members here are plugging a book/book tour.
That's a big hint.

[liquid diamond]

499. Your post made me want to stand up and applaud.

Thank you!

[Vattel]

16. If "this latest gambit will likely fail"

then why sacrifice the lives of hundreds of soldiers not to mention billions of dollars just to say that we tried? If anything is clear, it's that we shouldn't stay if we will probably fail.

[Sebass1271]

22. probably.. something we don't know

[Vattel]

34. The OP says that this strategy will probably fail.

My point is that if the OP is correct on that point, then we shouldn't adopt the strategy.

[Sebass1271]

45. The op is not claiming to be correct on his opinion, he

wants to give the President a chance to do his job and bring the people of afghanistan some kind of peace after what we have done there. It is our moral obligation to bring these people to at least into the 15th century after destroying their country. He said, we should at least try. If we don't try and run away like repubs do, we have no moral obligation to ask later why they hate us.

Pretty much of what is happenign now.

[Vattel]

62. Huh?

The OP "is not claiming to be correct in his opinion" that Obama's strategy will probably fail? We destroyed their country? OK, I'm lost.

[cliffordu]

28. Because we fucking said we would.

[Vattel]

40. Really?

We promised to keep fighting even if failure was likely? Well, that was a dumb promise.

[Sebass1271]

47. Did we say otherwise? When?

[Vattel]

64. Huh?

Are you asking whether and when we said that we wouldn't keep fighting even if failure is likely? I'm lost again.

[Bobbie Jo]

17. Nicely done...thank you for this.

K&R :kick:

[cliffordu]

29. Thanks.

[Parker CA]

18. Exce-freakin'llent post!!! K&R

[cliffordu]

32. Thank you.

[redqueen]

19. K&R

[Fumesucker]

20. I know that you know this..

America will never put the non-military resources into Afghanistan long term that it will take. Afghanistan is not a military problem anywhere near as much as it is a social, economic and cultural series of problems.

At some point we will end up walking away, America and Americans simply are totally unable to think long term enough to do this, our culture's ability to focus on the long term has been largely destroyed by corporatism focus on the immediate bottom line and popular entertainment which brings all problems to a close within at most a few hours.

Afghanistan will take a minimum of a couple of decades of intensive effort, most of which will not be military. We don't have the focus and stick-to-it-tivity to quote Jiminy Cricket to do the job as needs to be done. You can't forcibly bring a culture from the seventh century to the twenty first from the outside in a few years.

Better to cut our losses now than five or eight years from now after we have spent vastly more sums of blood and treasure for naught.

[cliffordu]

38. I have to respectfully disagree.

I think we CAN make the place a little better - the twenty first century is too far out, but the 15th century might be.

[Fumesucker]

65. Even the twentieth century wasn't all that civilized..

Let alone the fifteenth..

Sobibor, Verdun, the Gulags, Nanking, the Long March, Pol Pot, Idi Amin.. The list is all but endless.

There are enough Americans who don't even want their fellow Americans to get "something for nothing", do you really think they will let us send billions and billions of dollars to Afghanistan as anything other than bombs and guns?

This is not the same country it was in 1945, nowhere near.

[cliffordu]

68. I could be deluded. Probably am.

But I have to believe we are, finally, capable of something or it's back to the laughing academy.

++++++

People talk about the war profiteering these days -

One of the stories that IBM doesn't want you to know is that during WWII they sold punch card counting machines to the Germans through Switzerland so the chermans could track the people headed for the gas chambers.....and IBM got rich....

and of course there were the rubber companies who got wealthy beyond all belief as well as an old girlfriend's grandfather who make about 5 million selling soybeans to the military at hideously inflated prices.........

[Fumesucker]

77. I think you mean well and I don't mean to disparage your optimism..

I was aware of IBM and I know full well that war profiteering was a time worn tradition when some well connected Egyptian carpenter got a contract to outfit Amenhotep III's cavalry with chariots.

The difference between you and I is that I never left the laughing academy.

:fistbump:

[cliffordu]

79. Well......

:rofl:

:hi:

[subsuelo]

21. Except, Obama didn't say that. What he said was

"If I did not think that the security of the United States and the safety of the American people were at stake in Afghanistan, I would gladly order every single one of our troops home tomorrow."

[NYC_SKP]

35. Right, and our Security Depends on What We Do Now. The OP and that quote are not inconsistent.

Post-Bush we have NO credibility, NONE.

Our security, long term, is closely related to how we conduct ourselves in Afghanistan.

No doubt about it.

[cliffordu]

41. He said a lot of things tonight, I think I'll rely on what KIND of soldiers he is

sending over.

Three combat brigades (about 15000) and the rest trainers and construction dudes and dudettes.

I think the combat people WILL be coming home in two years and the infrastructure will continue to be worked on for some time.

[moodforaday]

207. That's what they always say, isn't it?

"If I did not think that the security of the United States and the safety of the American people were at stake in Afghanistan, I would gladly order every single one of our troops home tomorrow."

Tony Blair said the very same thing before Iraq - and we know what happened. Unlike Bush, Blair may even face legal troubles down the line. And you still believe a politician when he or she says you must go to war and kill more people? You really do?

[bertman]

371. "That's what they always say, isn't it?" Excellent point, moodforaday. If we're doing this

"surge" for "the security of the United States and the safety of the American people" then a far better investment would be to pull ALL of our troops out as soon as possible and in an orderly fashion. That would allow us to spend those $billions$ of surge dollars on energy independence here at home, thus providing good jobs for Americans, energy security, and a windfall of $billions$ to use for healthcare, mental and physical care for our vets, and a stronger America.

Please note that I did not say that we would use the surge $billions$ for additional funding for beefing up our security apparatus. We currently spend enough on the military, the CIA, NSA, Homeland Security and the scores of other "security" operations, that the taxpayers fund that these guys should be able to make the transition to robust, efficient, and effective police-type actions that would protect us from the likes of al Qaeda.

[LiberalAndProud]

25. +1

I know that our President agonized over this decision and the far-reaching ramifications. I will hang on and hope.

[cliffordu]

43. His entire presidency depends on it.

[moodforaday]

210. As long as it's the military and the corporations

that ensure his presidency, then yes, you are right.

[cliffordu]

224. If I were as cynical as you are I'd have killed myself decades ago.

What a black hole you must live in....

[moodforaday]

209. "I will hang on and hope."

You might to better to send some boxes of blankets and bandages to an Afghan family that's about to be bombed or become homeless.

[dred654321]

26. you seem genuine

but we have been there for 8 years already. What are we going to accomplish and fix in 18 months that we havent done in 8 plus years. This is a guerilla war with a completely corrupt leader. Several different tribal factions and the Taliban mixed in to boot. And they are in Pakistan, Somalia, and other countries. And we armed and funded the people we are now fighting 20 years ago. Obama has not though this through and has bought into the "more bombs" "more troops" is the solution.

[eqfan592]

31. in that 8 years....

....we never committed the resources necessary to accomplish what we needed to. Now we have a shot at that.

[dred654321]

39. we have had 70,000 plus troops there for a long time

with NATO supports, Drones, intelligence. What exactly is the magic number of 30,00 more troops going to do? Afghanistan is a large rugged country and putting in 100,000 more troops would still spread our forces very thin over the entire country. If its a numbers game we would need upwards of a million more troops there. Like I said, this is ill thought out.

[cliffordu]

46. We'll see now, won't we?

[dred654321]

63. We have no choice but to wait and see

We did plenty of bombing and war making for 8 years. Im not at all against Obama. I think he is being poorly advised, but has his heart in the right place. Sadly, the powers that be probably told him to "get with the program". And he is doing as much.

[moodforaday]

211. So what good is his heart?

I think you are right.

But then, if your mother turns into a zombie, is she still your mother, or are you going to defend yourself? It's a serious question, seeing as so many Dems have apparently invested too much in Obama to see the cold, corporate-sponsored, warmaking politician they are supporting.

[RaleighNCDUer]

563. Actually, we've had 70,000 troops there for barely six months.

He ordered more troops there in March, to try to bring the levels up to what the military said were needed, and it took several weeks for them to be deployed. That was just to stabilize the situation, not enough to improve it.

A million troops deployed stupidly can be less effective than a hundred thousand deployed intelligently. It is NOT just a numbers game.

[Sebass1271]

37. We haven't been there for eight years.. that is a lie..

Iraq had 160K troops while afghanistan had 40K troops.. Bush totally misplaced his focus and left that poor country to the lions.

[dred654321]

54. we have been there since late 2001/early 2002...that makes it about 8 years

and we have had more than 40,000 troops there for a long time, along with NATO support,intelligence, etc. Im asking what the magic number of 30,000 more troops and 18 months is going to accomplish. We surged in Iraq and it quelled the insurgency for a small time. Violence is back on the rise there and corruption still abounds, along with the old sunni/shia tensions. Afghanistan is rugged, mountainous with a porus border and tribal. Obama may think he is doing the right thing. Its not the right thing. No one is attacking Obama personally, its his ill advised policies that are faulty.

[Sebass1271]

60. whatever sooths you better, you can find the answer to your

statement in other posts posted here as well.. if you don't know how to comprehend (like repubs) i can't teach you that. you are an adult.

[dred654321]

67. thanks for your concern

you already said I lied and that you cant teach me. Ive not been condescending to anyone. We HAVE been there roughly 8 years, and Ive read the pros and cons. Obama is being poorly advised. and 18 months from now, I suspect crickets from those who support this escalation. Its finny too, because the OP himself stated its likely to not succeed, and I am agreeing with that. Its not about giving Obama a chance, its that he is buying into a false premise.

[uppityperson]

100. You changed from "70,000 plus" to "more than 40,000" Which is it, since you seem so fond of "magic n

numbers"?

"No one is attacking Obama personally" so this is not the right thing for him to do? good grief.

[cliffordu]

169. Yo, uppity!!! Howareya??

Are you French, yet??

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

366. As we say "May we"

Going back to norski-land to visit me old pa for a few days. You doing ok in town?

[cliffordu]

369. Yep - I like living the life of the Landed Gentry......

Not riding the bike as much as I used to, so there is terrible guilt there, but I'll survive...

:rofl:


Grantcart is threatening to come up this spring for a nosh and a palaver - I'll let you know and well gang up on the little fucker for a couple hours, OK??

Could be fun.

c

[uppityperson]

378. I'd enjoy that, let me know

[cliffordu]

44. Uh, we didn't do SHIT for 8 years.

Two years of real effort seems a fair one.

[SOS]

192. A historical point

After the Soviets withdrew in 1989, the idiot Bush 41 ended all aid to Afghanistan.
In the 1980s, the US blew $3 billion in the largest covert CIA action in history.
And once the Soviets left, the US didn't do a damn thing.
That vacuum led to years of hellish internal fighting, with the Taliban taking control in 1996.

Abandoning Afghanistan in 1989 has proved to be a mistake of monumental proportions.
Obama isn't a Bush, as many are saying.
He is trying to rectify the colossal idiocy of both Bush 41 and 43.

[cliffordu]

213. YES!!!! EXACTLY!!!

[redqueen]

231. Thank you!

It's so nice to see clear thinking. Drama and demagoguery are all too popular.

[NoSheep]

135. Perhaps having a president with a brain and no personal financial interests will help

get us out of there without simply running from a disaster.

[cliffordu]

171. Yep - that would kinda rock my world.

[WCGreen]

27. Amen, brother, Amen K&R

[cliffordu]

49. Thanks, WC -

[Sebass1271]

30. We can sleep better tonight. Our nation is in good hands

with our commander in chief. Count on it!!

[moodforaday]

212. I'm sure you're safe

as long as your Commander in Chief commands enough bombs to send a mid-size country back to stone age, especially one unlucky enough to have had it done to them a few times before. I'm sure you felt just as safe under Bush, 'cause he was doing the same thing.

For your information though, peace movement is not about "Oh my God, they're killing us, they must stop!". It's about "Oh my God, we are killing them, and we must stop!" In other words, it's not about YOU being safe. You already are.

[ohheckyeah]

33. My dad and I were discussing this today.

He's a WWII veteran and he hates war with a passion, but he also knows that there are times that a nation must live up to it's responsibilities and promises. He often talks about Harry Truman and how Truman's question for any policy position was "what is the right thing to do?"

And that's what the question is here. What is the right thing to do for everyone involved? I'm not smart enough to know that answer but I have to believe the rest of the world doesn't want to deal with any nation whose foreign policies change every 4 - 8 years based on the capriciousness of the American voter. There MUST be some consistency in foreign policy and once the U.S. made promises to the government and people of Afghanistan, I would think living up to those promises would be the "right thing to do." Our nation is only as good as it's word.

[cliffordu]

51. Precisely. Only as good as it's word.

[MadMaddie]

36. You have summed it up very well!

[cliffordu]

52. Thanks, MadMaddie

[Greybnk48]

42. It pains to say that you're right on. We can't just leave them as is

after bombing them to oblivion, among other things. We have to be better than that.

[JNelson6563]

266. +1

[redqueen]

48. I might be mistaken...

but I seem to remember no small amount of DUers saying that we needed to get troops out of Iraq, but send more to Afghanistan. And I don't remember them being called chickenhawks, or being told to enlist.

DU sure has changed.

[Strelnikov_]

55. You are not mistaken n/t

[redqueen]

167. Thanks...

good to know I'm not the only one who remembers that.

[cliffordu]

56. It sure has.

[redqueen]

170. I normally don't agree with those "DU has changed" posts...

but now I do see a difference.

[Number23]

600. A negro fella's in charge now. All the rules have changed, don't ya know??

[redqueen]

602. Sadly it seems that is the case... when DUers wanted Bush to send more troops to Afghanistan

that wasn't controversial... now one is branded a chickenhawk, called names, and told to go enlist.


Really makes one wonder...

[moodforaday]

214. Any lie will do

when you have to justify killing more people.

[redqueen]

219. What are you talking about?

What lie?

[moodforaday]

250. The untrue insinuation

that people who want no more war in Afghanistan today did want war in Afghanistan when Bush was bombing Iraq. You may be confusing DUers with Henry Kissinger or Michael Scheuer.

[redqueen]

252. You weren't paying attention. Many DUers said as much. (nt)

[HipChick]

50. Great Post!..He's cleaning up Bush's big pile of shit...I don't like the war

but I still support him

[cliffordu]

58. Thanks.

[Strelnikov_]

53. Yep. It's a big shit sandwich served up by years of Republican incompetence

and we're all gonna have to take a bite.

[cliffordu]

59. Yep. Perfect.

[Amonester]

459. No, too many MORE 'unfortunates' will have to take a bite.

Unless you run to the nearest recruitment office to enlist, don't talk about having to take a bite.

Thanks.

[Strelnikov_]

489. cluckcluckcluck

And who says I was only referring to AfPak?

[Saboburns]

57. Thank you, you nailed it

I feel EXACTLY the same way you do

[cliffordu]

61. Thanks.

:hi:

[CherokeeDem]

66. Thank You....

It is nice to read a lucid and thoughtful comment as opposed to the lunacy that is running rampant on DU right now. You have to wonder if some of these people ever listened to Obama during the campaign or can understand that sometimes the right thing to do is the hardest. Not that I am saying I agree with what he is doing, I don't. However, for anyone on this board, who is not a troll, to compare President Obama to Bush and the Neocons is just not paying attention. There is a long time DU member who posted an "editorial" about Obama a little while ago and I found it to be ridiculous. He apparently decided to make up his mind before the speech and he made some really idiotic comparisons of Obama and Bush. I took some of his comments and compared them to the text of Obama's speech. It would have been a good idea for this person and others to really look at what the President said before they started pounding on their keyboard. Obama is not George Bush.

I want the troops home, yesterday. I cannot abide these deaths for a war that Bush started but let's not forget, Afghanistan was the right place for us to go after 9-11 and now we know that the military wanted to end that action years ago. We also now know that the Bush administration diverted troops and funds to their private little Iraq war instead of getting the job done where they should have. Has Obama done the right thing? Time will tell but I think he did what he knew he had to do. The fact is the Bushies left him with very little choices.

[cliffordu]

70. Yep - the Bushies left him with almost NO room to move.

it's like they crashed the whole fucking thing to make sure he fails.

[Hekate]

69. Cliffordu--thanks. Hard words, but true enough. "Capricious" was certainly Bush's way...

For the past several years I have wondered if the damage to the collective psyche of our own country was just too great to ever recover who we once thought we were: a nation unafraid of boogymen, a nation unafraid of open borders, a nation that would not throw away its most cherished freedoms in the name of a false sense of security. A nation that would never build its own "Berlin Wall" on its southern border. A nation of laws.

Bush and Cheney did a good job of remaking a significant portion of this nation in their own twisted image. On the eve of the election last year I wondered here if Obama or anyone could ever help us get it back again. It was a shameful chapter in our history, and it's not over yet.

Trying to clean up Bush's gawdawful mess -- which is OUR mess as it was done in OUR names -- is something I think Obama has to do. I'm very sad about that, but I'm glad that he took the time to think over his options, unlike the previous "gut-instinct" occupant of the WH.

Hekate

[cliffordu]

72. Yep - you just summed it up beautifully.

These are perilous times and there are no easy markers.

I'll be happy to settle for less than the complete destruction of the country.

[lwcon]

73. What on earth does this refer to?

"I think we are too far down the extremist partisan shithole (on both sides of the isle)"

What extremism exists on the Democrat side of the aisle? Christ, the Democrats are so far down the Republican side of the aisle, you can't tell them apart.

Seriously, I know it's a swell talking point for Village "journalists" and for Obama's "centrist" stump speeches, but what connection to reality does this frame have???

[cliffordu]

74. I dunno - doesn't seem too hard for a lot of folks here to understand....

But if you REALLY don't know what the fuck I'm talking about, you haven't been reading the latest avalanche of bullshit by the anti-obama crowd on both sides of the isle.

But that's OK, you've been busy or something.

[lwcon]

75. In other words, it's pap that we're just supposed to accept as true

The Republicans (and apparently you) are too happy to paint our right-centrist elected Democrats as extremist lefty wackos, so I guess you've been paying excellent attention to their avalanche of bullshit, from whatever "isle" you're living on.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shanti]

141. do you HAVE to curse at everyone so much?

geez...:eyes:

[lwcon]

154. Dang, and I missed it!

I'll assume I'm a terrible person, as I surely must be.

[cliffordu]

373. I don't know why they deleted the insult, it wasn't even one of my best efforts.

I'll try to do better next time.

[cliffordu]

173. Well..yep.

[moodforaday]

218. "bullshit by the anti-obama crowd"

Not anti-Obama. Anti-war. Anti killing people. Anti military spending. How's that sound?

Today you cannot support Obama and be anti-war. You just can't, without Orwellian doublethink. It realy is that simple.

Want to help Afghanistan? Send in construction crews, engineers, doctors and teachers, and pay their salaries. Instead, Obama wants to "help" them by sending more troops and killing more of their people. That's a very peculiar concept of help.

[cliffordu]

232. I haven't seen to many posts that have so many errors as yours.

I won't even begin.

[apnu]

298. One problem with your point

Want to help Afghanistan? Send in construction crews, engineers, doctors and teachers, and pay their salaries. Instead, Obama wants to "help" them by sending more troops and killing more of their people. That's a very peculiar concept of help.

Afghanistan is so messed up and so criminal (after years of Bush/Cheney neglect) that any infrastructure support you send in there will either be stolen or used as a bribe. Before that can be done the place has to be secure for the contractors, educators and doctors to work. In half the country, nobody can walk down the street unless they're armed hand have a few armed pals coming along. Until the place is secure to start rebuilding we can do any of that.

[omega minimo]

80. Tonight is because *you* didn't support impeachment/investigations.

[cliffordu]

82. I support the Hague and public executions

[Postman]

81. Nice words. I disagree. The war is a black hole for money, lives and military readiness.

At the same time that the country (ours) is in the throes of another Great Depression/Recession..

WE CAN'T AFFORD IT.

[jaysunb]

83. Cross post

from here:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7128493

My service in Vietnam didn't require me to think too much about policy or ideology...but I did. And now I see the near same situation repeating itself on a smaller yet deadlier scale.
I could have told both LBJ & Westmoreland back in 66 that the exit was to the left.
The Vietnamese had repelled all comers through out their history...now, so will the Afghani people.

I've watched the past 8 years slide by with nothing constructive happening. It took less than a thousand special forces troops to route and basically destroy the Al Qiada base. Yet, while everyone was focused on Iraq, Afghanistan turned into a quagmire of no end.

Right here at DU many posters observed and reported the handcuffs that were being put on the next administration by Bush/Cheney et al. We knew it was the end result we're confronted w/ today.

Doubling down in Nam didn't work. The end game didn't match reality, and it won't work here.

That being said, it's time to clean up what we can and get the hell out. There are no Afghan leaders to negotiate a withdrawal with, so it's up to the President to redefine this mission and safely back us out of this "empire graveyard."

Good post.

[cliffordu]

84. Thanks - and I think you're completely correct -

clean up what can be cleaned up and get the fuck out.

[Withywindle]

85. Great post!

Obama knew going in that cleaning up the elephant shit was going to be a gigantic and unpleasant task. He chose to do it anyway. That's courage!

Afghanistan never completely recovered from the Mongols, much less the Russians and the British and everyone else who's seen it a must-have for the Empire more recently.

I know Obama has empathy and compassion and ability to view things in the long term, qualities the previous administration so thoroughly lacked that it's hard to view them as fully human. I just wish I were more optimistic about this meaning anything more than more quagmire of blood and death.

[cliffordu]

86. I see no reason to be optimistic about any of it, but some things cannot

simply be turned away from. We helped fuck this up and maybe it SHOULD be expensive enough that we don't ever pull something like this again.

[Truth2Tell]

87. I respect your view but disagree

Your position only makes sense if you believe that we will do more harm by leaving. I've seen no convincing evidence of that.

[grantcart]

88. The adults are back in charge

[cliffordu]

89. It's about time, eh?

Howareya???

Thanks for letting me start that shitstorm the other night with that screed you let me publish.

People fucking blamed me. Now I have professional enemies.....

This place has been a fucking zoo all day long.


Back from your trip yet??

[AllyCat]

90. Then if this is true, why can't we stop the nonsense in Iraq and focus on this?

I'd believe it all if we were moving out of one war and into the next. Sort of. This is crazy. Where will we get the money? Where will we get the troops? At what price to the rest of our economy? I don't think this is the end of it. We will be asked for more money, more troops, and more resources. We'll continue to be at war forever.

Call me a neocon if you want. I just don't act like one. I'll continue to protest. Feel free to villify me and the others who cannot and will not support this shit.

[cliffordu]

94. Neocons are the opposite side of the coin -

In spite of their rough talk and Cheney-esque posturing, they just fuck stuff up and then cut and run.

We should be better than that. I'll not vilify anyone for what they believe, but I'll tell you this:

IF we leave NOW, more will die in the next year than if we stay and help rebuild the Army and straighten up the fucking police force.

And build a couple hundred bridges, and clinics.

[SaveAmerica]

539. We're moving out of Iraq, my husband is watching it happen first hand

Do a search for 'largest movement of troops and equipment' and 'Iraq'. That's why it amazes me that people are not appreciating the magnitude of what Obama has to fix. Clean up on aisle 43 - NeoCon Wars. Everyone get a mop or broom. And I do mean everyone.

[DWilliamsamh]

93. Thank you for speaking this uncomfortable truth. (N/T)

[cliffordu]

95. Thanks.

[silverweb]

96. There are no really good choices here.

I believe that our President has not disregarded any information brought to him, and has sought the best opinions and advice from all sides -- unlike his predecessor, who left him this mess.

He has obviously struggled to balance the realities, needs, and unimaginable military, geopolitical, diplomatic, humanitarian, and logistical complexities of the situation before making his decision -- unlike his predecessor, who left him this mess.

I trust the President's judgment, support his decision, and hope for the best outcome.

[DFW]

97. And that's the most inconvenient truth of all

Screwed if we do and screwed if we don't.

Obama is faced with two evils, and only history will reveal if he chose the lesser of them.
There are a lot of people who profess to know that in advance. I am not one of them.

[pundaint]

117. I agree with your assessment of both outcomes - but I'd rather be screwed with

our servicemen home and lower debt, than screwed, bleeding, bankrupt, and a better armed civil war left behind.

[cliffordu]

204. Yep - and all those that think they do are fools, I think....

[berni_mccoy]

98. Thanks Cliffordu! Damn Fine Post.

[cliffordu]

166. Thanks, Berni -

[PJPhreak]

99. I believe we have no choice but to clean up the mess that the Bushco Mafia left,

Otherwise we will have problems that will take decades to fix...like the amount of Afghani heroin that is pouring into the US.

Just ask any junkie where their dope is coming from at the moment.

East Coast....Afghanistan.

West Coast...Afghanistan and the Far East.

Just like us cannabis smokers that were smokin all that Black Afghani Hash in '86.

Ya'll Remember that crossed machine gun stamp that said said "Smoke The Russians"?

I Do.

Just One Example.

Thanks Cliffordu For speaking the truth,No matter how much we don't wanna believe it.




Edit for Spelling

[cliffordu]

176. You're welcome and thanks for the kudos.

[moodforaday]

223. How are you going go "clean up the mess"

by continuing to do the same?

[cliffordu]

365. Is he doing the same??

30,000 combat troops??/ REALLY??

[BigBearJohn]

101. You almost persuaded me, until I just now heard this on Ed Schultz. I transcribed it for you becaus...

I was so impressed with what Rep. Eric Massa (D-NY), Armed Services Committee, had to say to Ed Schultz about
Afghanistan and the President's speech:

---

ED SCHULTZ: "Has the President said anything tonight that might warm you up to what he is
trying to accomplish?

REP. MASSA: "NO. And I would have to ask a question:
Why 30,000 troops and not 40?
Why 30,000 troops and not 20?
Why 18 months and not 16 or 24?
These are artificial time lines and numbers
that have no true military significance
as planners sit down and develop
what's called "troop to task" requirements.
There is nothing that I heard toni te that
would convince me that we are embarking
on a strategic mission that is both vital
and necessary. We invaded Afghanistan with less than
1,000 special forces personnel and killed or captured
over 98% of all the terrorists that we could identify.
And now with the remaining few, less than 100 according
to the national security adviser, we are going to deploy
an army of 100,000 to rebuild a nation?

"The President says, as one of his major points, we are
going to act as a partnership with the Afghan government
and yet we all know, anyone who has studied it,
anyone who has his eyes and ears open, that that government
is corrupt beyond malice. I think and I hold strong
objection to sending American soldiers into harms' way
and combat to prop up a government that is more corrupt than
Tony Soprano and his lieutenants. And so, no, I heard nothing
tonight that would sway me against my absolute objection to
what I consider to be a fool's errand.

========================

ED SCHULTZ: "Why shouldn't the President be given an opportunity to
fix this? He didn't create this. He inherited this and
his generals have now come to him with plans that could stabilize
the country. Shouldn't the progressive caucus give him the benefit
of the doubt and let him make his mistake on this if it is one?

REP. MASSA: "Ed, no, because we are dealing with a mistake that deals with the
lives of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. And so, no, the
answer to that is very clear in my opinion. My life's experience,
24 years in the United States military is yelling at me.
Telling me that is impossible to build a nation where there is
fundamentally no Afghan identity. We hear over and over and over
again from Afghan nationals that they are going to be there with
whoever is there with them. We cannot stay forever and I think
it objectionable and wrong to send Americans to fight and die for
that which the Afghan people will not fight and die for. You just
saw a series of interviews. Able bodied military aged males. Why are
they not in uniform? Why are they not standing and fighting for their
own freedoms and why do they expect us and our men and women in uniform
to do it for them? This is not an issue about politics. This is not an
issue about standing with the President, one president or the other.
It's about deploying 5, 6, 7 times American military personnel to do
what is militarily impossible. And I think that we must raise our voices
not as liberals or progressives or conservatives or Republicans or Democrats
but as thinking common sense Americans who have seen this movie before and
we know how it is going to end.

ED SCHULTZ: Let's look at what Bernie Sanders had to say tonight, the
Independent senator from Vermont:

"Why, in the midst of a severe recession with 17% of our people unemployed
or under-employed and one out of four kids on food stamps -- are we going to
be spending $100 Billion a year on Afghanistan when have so many pressing needs
at home?"

ED SCHULTZ: Do you think that's where the American people are tonight? The populace
view of this?

REP. MASSA: I think it is certainly a view that's worth understanding. The President
has said that we are going to operate in partnership with the Afghan government. Then
we hear behind the scenes that we are talking about bypassing Kabul and the corrupt
Karzai regime and going directly to inject money into the villages and towns in the
countryside. We can't get money injected into the villages and towns and cities back in my
home district to get people back to work. Why are worried about building an infrastructure
in a country that neither wants one or will do one for themselves?

ED SCHULTZ: Because the President said tonight that our security is at stake. You don't
believe that?

REP. MASSA: Well, I disagree with that analysis. If our security is at stake to the extent
that we must rebuild a nation because there are 100 terrorists in Afghanistan, then we better
be willing to occupy every single nation on the face of this planet and do the same. Our mission
is to identify, locate, kill or capture, with malice of forethought any terrorist anywhere.
That does not call for a standing army of 100,000 people executing an occupational strategy
in a foreign nation. We have tried this over and over and over again and it has never once
worked. You cannot achieve this militarily. PERIOD.

[cliffordu]

181. I cannot disagree that he has good points -

but I feel like this is worth TRYING. If we don't TRY to set something right before we leave, then we are no better than the Bushies.

[LiberalAndProud]

183. They don't want an infrastructure. That's really great.

Because the rest of the world keeps blowing up whatever they might manage to build anyway.

This sentence, "Why are worried about building an infrastructure
in a country that neither wants one or will do one for themselves?" makes all the rest suspect in my view.

[cliffordu]

196. Nobody in that part of the world wants an infrastructure, don'tchaknow.....

:sarcasm:

[uppityperson]

102. I listened at work. Hit the wall when he said "30,000" and turned with tears in my eyes

then he said 18 months and I stayed to listen for a bit more.

I didn't get to listen to much because I was at work, but from what I heard, thank you Cliffordu for writing what I am thinking.

No, I didn't leave a mark in the wall, couldn't do that since they're spending soooo much money fixing the place up to look pretty.

It was interesting, talking to people there afterwards. Some very rightwingers and some like me, most all were very sad at having to face the last 8 yrs of what has happened, and not, in Afghanistan, and most all were still ok with doing this now.

See what can get fixed up, give it the chance it should have had after Afghanistan was attacked, then get the hell out if it is unsalvagable.

So, thanks c.

[pundaint]

118. 18 months is only the start of withdrawal.

A Whitehouse spokesman was on Bill Press this AM saying that the RATE of withdrawal is to be determined then. So that 18 months will be true in the President's mind if 1 troop is returned in 18 months, and the rest stay in perpetuity.

[cliffordu]

205. Nah, false logic - he says he'll draw them down and any responsible

field commander would assess the situation before pulling too many too quickly.....

We'll all get to see, now won't we?

[cliffordu]

182. Thanks, Uppity, you're the best.

:fistbump:

[ima_sinnic]

103. you act as though war is the only possible option

gee, isn't it convenient that their "9th-century infrastructure" is destroyed so we can't possibly stop murdering them?

What does death, destruction, mayhem, and creating a hell on earth have to do with "not leaving these people to their own devices"? The Afghan people can't kill each other as well as we can kill them? And how dare they not want us there killing them!

A whole lot of money thrown at them as we go about minding our own goddam business for once in the entire history of this greedy, warmongering, imperialist nation would certainly help, as would conservation, employment, health, literacy, and other positive programs--but that would be beneficial to the Afghan people and might even advance them! No, only murdering them will save the Afghan people from the Afghan people.

on edit: btw, I unrec'd your post.

[quaker bill]

107. when in the middle of a war

generally, war is behind you, present with you, and in front of you. The people shooting at us will not necessarily stop if we call "timeout". This is one of the very good reasons to never start a war, they are simply quite difficult to end once the killing starts.

The apparent problem with throwing money into this situation is who to give it to. Corruption is apparently rampant and there is little evidence that a cash transfer to the central government will benefit the people in any significant way.

[ima_sinnic]

109. maybe teams of positive developers, then, instead of murderers

a "peace army" of road and school builders, well drillers, etc., with US funding, training or organizing the Afghanis to accomplish rebuilding and really emphasizing education/literacy and development of jobs to repair infrastructure--ironically the very same things we need here.

Or give the money to organizations like CARE that have the structure and personnel to do just this kind of thing, rather than simply handing it to corrupt government officials (and I do agree, that would be a problem).

[cliffordu]

194. Three combat brigades out of the 30,000- the rest are trainers and

construction people - support staff.

[cliffordu]

241. soldiers are murderers, then? That says it all.

[stranger81]

436. what do you think they're there to do? serve ice cream and distribute fluffy bunnies?

Soldiers, I hate to break it to you, are trained to kill people. You can tell yourself all you like that they're there giving horticulture lessons, or bravely rebuilding the country, but that doesn't make it true.

If you seriously don't understand why our soliders are there, I guess that explains your OP.

[cliffordu]

448. Having done a tour in a combat zone, I would like to inform you that

you are either full of shit out of ignorance or you're just here to spread lies and half truths

Fewer than 13% of any group of soldiers ever fire their weapon in anger. Ever.

Fuck right the fuck off you ignorant troll.

[winyanstaz]

523. Having been married to a career military officer.....

Your numbers are simply not true. Nor is your argument that fewer than 13% ever fire their weapon (in anger or otherwise) true.
It depends on the war and the situation..always.
And to say soldiers are not for killing is simply denial. Soldiers are trained to kill..that is their job..killing the enemy. That is what soldiers do...they go to war and they kill.
It may be to defend their nation..which is good..
or it may be to defend the drug routes and oil supplies...and the corporations..which is bad...
but whatever...their job is basically to kill.
p.s. Thats why we give them guns and bullets and bombs...duh.

[cliffordu]

526. Sigh. 13% is the number the Pentagon used to figure combat/support ratios

Go to the Pentagon's website and look at the fucking numbers. The VA will have the same ones, I believe.

And if your husband really was a career officer, he knows better, or he can find out.

If I am wrong then show me the real numbers.

And I find it interesting that you are supposed to be married to a career military officer and claim all of them (us, really) are just killers.

What disgusting horseshit.


And for what it's worth, I think you are a fraud. No career officer would perpetuate the ideas you espouse.

kill kill kill

[winyanstaz]

534. Once again you are wrong...

and you obviously cant read.
I said..and I repeat...it depends on the war and the situation.
My husband served TWO terms in Nam.
His men were ORDERED to cut the EARS off of the people they killed to keep the numbers up to what the military wanted them to be.
He saw entire villages wiped out and murdered by us soldiers...to "save the village" from the vietcong.
He served on the USS Henderson, the USS ISLE ROYALE, the USS BRIGET, The USS EPPERSON and the USS TRUSTUN and in China Lake as an investigator with very high clearance into the theft of military supplies (and he found them too :))
He and his troops were coming BACK from being deployed to Cambodia (where they killed a lot of people) when they heard ol Nixon tell his lie on the radio about never being in Cambodia..and that opened his eyes to the lies....
He served 20 years honorably but he knew his government was lying to the people and he hated the wars.
His swift boat ran into a mine in the water on the may cong delta and he was blown through the metal roof of the boat...he had his face rebuilt and an eye replaced and shrapnel removed and some shrapnel left in his back because it was too close to his spine.
ALL of his crew were either killed in the wreck or murdered by the Vietcong as they laid on the muddy banks. He was shot but the helicopters came in time and saved him..thank God. He hurt over that for many years until the day he died. He hated losing his friends and comrades that way.
He was awarded the Purple Heart among many other medals and he is DEAD you stupid son of a bitch from all the agent orange the government sprayed him and his men with in Nam.
Many the nights I held him after he would awake screaming from the dead and dying he saw and the things he had to do.
I am the woman that took care of him day and night for nine years while he fought for every single breath he took. I am the one that held him while he wept for his dead comrades. I am the one that fought the doctors and the military for him to get the care he needed.
His children are the kids that grew up hardly knowing their dad because he was always gone off to wars.
Don't tell me about the military you desk jockey. I could give a shit LESS what numbers the pentagon posts. Ask ANY platoon on the front lines. They kill.
I am a military widow and I know damned well what goes on.
Every single man in his platoon killed..every single one...NOT no 13%...100 % OF THEM...EVERY SINGLE ONE and they did it many many many times as did ALL the troops on the front lines on the ground in Nam.
I am sure it is the same in any war.
He was a wonderful man, a true warrior and he loved this country and I am very very proud of him. I miss him terribly.
So take your head out of your ass soldier and own up to what a real soldier does.
A soldier is trained to kill.

[cliffordu]

540. My original number stands.

13% of all the soldiers in Vietnam fired their weapons in combat, your hubby being one of them.

Perhaps all the men in his platoon did, but only 13% of ALL the soldiers there were the ones doing the fighting.

I'm interested in how you got so hateful and damaged as to say all soldiers are murderers.

And the story about the ears is bullshit. No one was ordered to do that, guys did it for sport, although the rumor was they were ordered.

My outfit was one of the helicopter battalions that ferried people to the Cambodian Border.

I was no desk jockey. But you're more interested in spewing the lie that soldiers are murderers than actually having a conversation.

If what you say is true, your husband has my utmost respect and gratitude. And you have my sympathy for obviously suffering for so long that you believe all soldiers are murderers.

If it is not, you should be ashamed of yourself.

I've met the wives and family members of dozens - if not hundreds - of combat veterans - regular army strait leg grunts, SEALS, Rangers, Marine Recon members....deck apes from battleships and a couple of tunnel rats...and I have NEVER met ANY family member that says all soldiers are murderers. Never.

So you'll understand my skepticism. Okay??

[winyanstaz]

565. whats wrong with you?

I am saying all soldiers are trained to kill. That is their job.
I also said..for the third time now..how many solders kill is not some number put out by the pentagon...but DEPENDS ON THE WAR AND THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND.
Twice now you have insinuated I am a liar and a fake. Now you are claiming I think all soldiers are murderers and I am full of hate for the military. sheesh.
My grand nephew is going to Afganistan this month. My nephew is in the marines. My sister and my brother were in the Navy. I am a Navy war widow. We are a military family and I do not hate the military so you can stuff that where the sun doesnt shine.
However I do believe that ALL solders are trained to kill...sorry but since my father TAUGHT martial arts and self defense in the Army to the soldiers going to Korea and my husband taught men how to use their rifles to shoot people...I believe I am correct. I will say it again.
ALL soldiers are trained to kill.
How many soldiers kill is based NOT on some number pulled out of someones butt in the pentagon but on the WAR and the SITUATION ON THE GROUND at the time.
I do think very little of people that have to be right so bad they twist things around and insult people.
Dont bother to reply as I shall not be able to see or read it..as you are now the fourth person EVER to be thrown into my iggy pit.

[cliffordu]

574. I owe you an apology. I just re-read the entire sub-thread.

I thought you jumped with response #109. Everything I said after that was NOT aimed at you but the person who stated that soldiers are MURDERERS.....I thought that person was you.

If you look at my responses, I hope you understand that I felt as though I was being called a murderer, and responded (wrongly, at you) as such.

I am a nasty jerk lots of times, but never out of sheer cruelty.

I am deeply sorry for attacking you, and whatever I can do to repair the harm is fair. Let me know.

Clifford.

[winyanstaz]

580. Thank you for your message...apology accepted...

I hope you also got my email apologizing for my terrible temper in return.....I can be a firebrand when I get my dander up...I am working on my temper but it still gets away from me at times.

[stranger81]

557. who said anything about firing in anger?

You certainly don't have to do that to be killing Afghans without justification.

Now that we know you're also current or former military, there not much mystery anymore about why you're so sanguine about all this (no pun intended).

As for your last comment, the chutzpah of telling someone on this board that they're a troll because they don't support escalating a war is stunning. There are plenty of communities online that cater to your views better than this one, including a little site based in Fresno.

[cliffordu]

559. ah, when you run out of arguments, play the Fresno card.

My OP stands for itself,

My figures are true, and I have NEVER heard any family member call soldiers murderers. Ever.


I love the people here who think just waking away makes us not murderers.

And, firing in anger is another way of saying firing in combat.

Fuck me teh dumb is strong around here sometimes.

[stranger81]

578. speaking of "teh dumb," you might reread this entire subthread and notice

that I'm not the poster that used the "m" word, either. My only point was that we have soldiers there to kill people. Not to build roads, or plant crops, or provide medical care, or teach children, or anything else that needs doing . . . . to kill people. Whether you think that's murder or not is another discussion, but not a discussion that I ever engaged in.

[John Q. Citizen]

531. It's not murder because it's not against the law. But yes, soldiers are paid to kill other people.

Or to facilitate the killing of other people, even if their part of the job isn't the actual killing part of the job.

That seems pretty basic. I'm amazed it hasn't occurred to you.


Let me ask you this; Do you look forward to foreign soldiers invading your neighborhood because you believe that will make your life and the life of your family and friends better?

It really appears that you believe that's what the people who live in Afghanistan think. So I'm wondering if you also believe that abouyt your own town or place you and your family live?

[Fire1]

311. Developers and consruction workers are not going to train and

build their forces (those that are left) and strengthen their government.

[RaleighNCDUer]

543. And who is going to protect that 'peace army' when the Taliban starts

lobbing mortar shells at them?

i'm a cynic, my ass. I'd say what you are, but the rules disallow it.

[cliffordu]

186. Unrec whatever you want. I pity people who only see us as a destructive

occupying force.

Your maudlin hysterics have nothing to do with what I wrote, but don't let that stop you.

[ima_sinnic]

105. oh, and "this gambit will likely fail"--do you even read your own BS?

the gambit will likely fail, but we have become a nation known for rushing in where even fools fear to tread and achieving failure. We would not be true to the American Spirit if we did not pursue a failed war.

But, really, it doesn't matter who "wins," because the big winners are the military-industrialists, the corporatists, the warmongering "defense industry"--in fact, the entire U.S. economy! No matter the outcome, they are laughing all the way to the bank even as they invent a new boogeyman, a new "threat," a new scenario of some "evil" force next door to a "good" force on the other side of the world that we MUST sacrifice our own nation's soul for.

So bomb away, it's all good, failure or not, who cares?

[cliffordu]

188. Why are you a hater?

[NuttyFluffers]

106. "physician heal thyself." nice sentiment, i understand you, but remember the path to hell...

it is paved with good intentions.

let me answer one of your worries:

"It means that we have no more honor, we have no business in the affairs of the world of any import. That our word is no fucking good."

we have no honor. we have no business in the affairs of the world of any import. our word is no fucking good.

"We, as Democrats, are supposed to be different than that."

we can try, but first the sick must be healed before healing another. the sinner must confess (acknowledge, be aware) and stop sinning before acting out contrition (make restitution, seek forgiveness).

"We as a country are too broke, and as a people are unwilling to serve any interest but our own, most of the time."

yes. but it can be different if we reinvested in our people -- to heal ourselves. only then can we have a hope of success in the future.

"But we do have to TRY to set this right. We have to."

... i will agree with you here. but you are aware that having to set this right, and having to do so immediately are two different things, no? yes, seek to fix the wrong. but you can only do this once well.

"Or the sacrifice of every soldier who died is a waste, every civilian in Afghanistan who believed in us has to become an acceptable casualty when we are gone.

And that we are not to be trusted to serve any interest but our own capricious adventures, Our own immediate self interest."

every soldier who died is a waste. every civilian who believed in us is an accepted casualty. we are not to be trusted to serve any interest beyond our own capricious adventures, our own immediate self interest.

this is regardless whether we stay a second longer. we have no virtue from which to stand. we are too dissonant to understand our failings, our victims failings or needs, and how to carefully move towards reconciliation. again, the only recourse is to pull back, heal ourselves, and --once we have shown a willingness and capability to reform our behavior -- ask with humility and consideration what can we honestly do to help. anything else is hubris, be it noble or not.

"Even at this late date I cannot believe that is we have degenerated that far.

And if we have, we are just like the fucking NEOCONS:

We'll fuck your shit up and then leave town. Just like they did with the economy, New Orleans, both Iraq and Afghanistan."

yes, cognitive dissonance is an unpleasant thing to accept. but the first stage of healing is acceptance. there is no escape, we have degenerated that far.

whether we are like the neocons or not is immaterial. only through leaving town and accepting despair, and seeking redemption, can we do the one thing they can never do: return back with apologies and an offer to be of service to alleviate the suffering.

the junkie must reach rock bottom before a positive turnaround; we are addicted to war, power, and naivete that imposed ideals are welcome. addiction must be recognized. then the process of healing can begin. only after recovery can tentative steps towards forgiveness begin.

i empathize with the cri de coeur of a soldier's honor in the face of awareness of war's sickness. nevertheless, we must leave. we must feel despair, shame, dishonor. we must heal ourself. only then do we have the power and clarity to do what you want -- attempt to right our wrongs by seeking permission. there are no shortcuts in learning from agony.

[quaker bill]

108. I don't agree with every point

but I agree with where you end up. Thanks

[cliffordu]

190. Your welcome and thank you.

[madokie]

110. I'm in your camp Clifford

[cliffordu]

215. Thank you, my brother.

:patriot:

[pundaint]

113. Yeah and Nixon was giving 'Nam "One last try" too

We do the same thing for the same reasons, but it's not at all the same because it's a different place, a different corrupt government being supported, a different population with an ancient civilization ready to acclaim democracy for the first time, and a different country which has never been overrun by a foreign aggressor. This country has different looking indigenous people who you can't be sure will not be attacking you when your back is turned. It's just not the same thing as repeating the same damn failure all over again.

[debbierlus]

199. It isnt' going to work but we have to try? This post is incoherent emotion

This is what Obama has reduced his base to defending....the indefensible.

[cliffordu]

208. Ignorance is bliss, just like they say.

What's latin for NIMBY??

[closeupready]

303. Completely agree.

n/t

[cliffordu]

206. No, Nixon didn't.

And this situation looks like Vietnam to people who don't know anything about Vietnam.

[tandot]

114. Agree with you. Thanks for posting :)

K & R

[Stinky The Clown]

115. They'll get plenty of money from the narco biz we built for them. They'll do fine.

Maybe a better strategy would have been to declare defeat and ask *them* to support *us*.

Don't cry for them. They'll be fine in short order.

[pundaint]

120. Surprise! Russia is the big narco-client for Afghanistan.

[blondeatlast]

116. I hate this war, but I also hate what has happened in that region of the world. EXCELLENT post and

it needed to be said.

[cliffordu]

222. Thanks.

[nightrain]

119. when you find yourself in a hole, don't keep digging....

Obama is in a hole and is worsening the situation by sending more troops and contractors (1:1 ration??). This escalation plan is utter stupidity AFAIK.

[dbmk]

137. But if you dragged someone else into that hole with you..

.. stabilising the sides might seem the right thing to do before you crawl out, and not just crawl out and care less if it caves in on the other dude?

Unless you want to find yourself alone in all the holes of the future.

[nightrain]

158. no. It still applies--stop digging. apologize and get out. do humanitarian works.

Read "Three Cups of Tea".

remember the UK's attempt, also Soviet. oh yeah, Genghis Khan and others...

War is not the answer.

[RaleighNCDUer]

562. Actually, he has ordered severe restrictions on the use of contractors,

including the end of 'no bid' contracts.

Sometimes, if you find yourself in a hole, the best way out is to dig at the side of the hole to get more dirt under your feet so you can climb out.

He's not Bush. He is not digging downward.

[nightrain]

571. ha! What other Nobel peace prize winner escalated a war?

Let's count the increased number of wounded/dead/maimed/PTSD'd.

War is not the answer.

[nightrain]

601. nope. see TPM/Rachel data on contractor numbers...

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/so_how_many_private_contractors_are_there_in_afgha.php

currently--


"Third Country Nationals 16,400
Local/Host Nation 78,400
US Citizens 9,300
Total 104,100"

and that's without the escalation!!!

It's worse than 1:1!

[truebrit71]

121. Well said...

..and I agree...I think things may already be too far gone in that country, but we cannot simply up sticks and say "You're on your own"...

[HughMoran]

122. Or, to put it bluntly, "he is willing to take responsibility even though he didn't start this war"

It's easy to sit in your office chair and say "we failed, let's get out now", it's another to look at the big picture as you've described it and say "well, there'll be no winners here, but we have an obligation after what we've already done in destroying your country to at least TRY to set things straight."

Oh, and the exact thing the right-wing trolls (who got us into this mess) are complaining about is really the missed point by so many on the left - "he announced an exit strategy" is what the right-wingers are whining about today. For the first time ever, we've set a date to start pulling out of Afghanistan! This is significant! This puts pressure not only on our generals to be focused and not waste resources, but it also puts pressure back onto the Afghans who need to stop relying on the US for support. This was the right decision.

[cliffordu]

227. Precisely.

Nice.

[alcibiades_mystery]

123. Good post

:thumbsup:

[LynneSin]

124. Thank you for saying it better than I could

:pals:

[cliffordu]

235. You're welcome and thanks.

[defendandprotect]

125. "Adventures"? These are illegal/immoral wars intended to steal resources . . .

from other nations ---

These are imperialistic "adventures" . . .

Wake up!



MIHOP --

[dbmk]

143. They might have been started for that reason

But just leaving a mess behind and point to guys reponsible would not exactly be taking reponsibility as a nation, would it?

[defendandprotect]

449. The first responsibility is NOT to prusue wars of aggression . ..

Do you think if the Chinese had invaded America that we would want them to stick around

to "take on their responsibility" . . . ?????

:eyes:

[cliffordu]

236. And what resources are we stealing in Afghanistan?

[defendandprotect]

450. Location, location, location .....

which has to do with oil pipeline --

not to mention another permanent foothold in the Middle East --

and HEROIN . . .

As the British said of us . . . The Americans just love to sell drugs!!



:eyes:

[lame54]

126. And in 2 years when were still there?...

and handed a shitload of similar excuses why we can't leave?

What then?

[MineralMan]

127. Recommend.

I hate warfare as much as you do. President Obama has to play the cards he was dealt in this mess. As you say, an immediate pull out is simply not possible without leaving a vacuum that will result in far more deaths of innocent Afghanis that will occur under his plan.

Blame Bush. Let President Obama take his shot at this.

[cliffordu]

243. yep.

[StopTheNeoCons]

128. Thank you, I support our President...nt

[parasearchers]

129. oh bull, we need out now, we are fighting this war on BORROWED money

[truedelphi]

357. i think most Corporate owned politicians realize - better the American people fight

This war on borrowed money than the politicians need to turn to the banks for loans for their campaigns.

It is all about having those campaign coffers filled to the brim.

[swilton]

131. There Will Also Be a Price to Pay if We Stay

By our own troops and the innocent civilians we kill in Afghanistan.

We ought to just pay them (and the Iraqis and the Native Americans and the Serbians and all the other innocent countries that we 'liberated') war reparations. Once it hits our pocketbooks, we might think twice about invading other countries.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

132. thank you--very well said.

don't have time to gather my thoughts, let alone post them.

thank you for saying it. Maybe I'll be able to say something later.

[Javaman]

133. So in other words...

we have to continue to shovel shit against the tide until the tide goes out.

Fine, but remember, the tide always comes back in.

When we declare "the job finished", let me tell you, it won't be. History has shown that time and time again.

There is an old saying in the script writing field, that I think I can directly apply to this situation: A script is never done, it's just completed.

So if Obama feels the need to complete the script and call it "finished", fine, but the blow back from the Democrats won't be pretty. And it really won't be completed.

And considering that Obama himself has stated along the lines of "if I'm a one term president, then so be it". I honestly hope he understands and fully embraces that concept. Many a leader has said pretty much those same words only to find them regretting them later.

The power of the situation, in regards to Iraq and Afghanistan, has long been out of the publics hands, pretty much since these two messes began.

The government spurred on by partisan insanity sealed that fate. And the war machine industries are doing all they can to keep furthering this cash cow.

The Democrats are going to pay a high price in 2010, once again showing, they have this incredible ability of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I have never in my life seen a political party such as our current incarnation of the Democratic party do everything they can to destroy themselves. The Repubs can't even surmount an intense spit ball fight, yet, the Dems keep blowing off their feet.

Frankly, it no longer matters what we think, say or do, we are feeding more people into a region that countless civilizations have tried to change, take over and conquer and all have failed.

What honestly makes us so special? Nothing.

What the war in Afghanistan is, is a massive example of mission creep. It starts off as one thing, morphs into another, then finally changes to yet another form. Resulting in something that no longer even resembles what we started off trying to accomplish.

Every rational has been tried, all excuses have been put forth, yet, here we are almost 9 years later and everything is pretty much how we started. The names have changed, the bodies have piled up, and the soldiers still only have the flimsiest of definition as to what the mission is supposed to be.

There is no reasonable excuse to keep them in country any longer. Another 30K troops, honestly, isn't going to amount to much at all. It just delays the inevitable.

[Fire1]

168. Hell, WE know that! Obama KNOWS that!! But it takes fuckin

TIME, DAMMIT, to get pakistan to TRUST our stupid asses and become a strategic ally to watchdog the crazies!!! You obviously DON'T GET THAT!!!

[cliffordu]

245. Many here don't get it at all. Won't fit on a bumper sticker.

[redqueen]

341. ouch

Sadly true, though.

[Javaman]

514. 9 years isn't long enough?

LOL

give it time, not enough time, blah blah blah. Now were have I heard all that before?

man oh man.

[cliffordu]

527. I KNOW THAT since Obama has had us there for nine years that

things won't change....Oh, wait....

[Javaman]

542. Oh you believe in the magic wand theory...

have fun with that.

This conversation just came to screeching halt, when you pulled that one out.

Whatever, keep dreaming.

[cliffordu]

549. Three combat brigades out of the 30,000- the rest are trainers and

support staff.

Bushy never did that in 8 years.

I just love the fact that there are hundreds of otherwise intelligent people here who refuse to even WONDER what the physical effort entails now as opposed to what bushy didn't do.


IF they see no difference in the focus and effort, they have my pity and condolences.

[Javaman]

554. Thank you...

but I don't need your pity.

I can clearly see on my own. 30k for 18 months won't amount to a hill of beans other than killing more people.

Call me crazy, but I recall a little book call 1984 that said something about "war is peace", but what do I know?

[cecilfirefox]

138. I'm with you, I support the President's deision. nt

[SteveG]

139. Very Well Said!!!! (nt)

nt

[Tippy]

142. I support President Obama...K&R

No matter what anyone says this is Bush and Chaney's War....They allowed Al-Qaeda to escape from Torra Borra...America is not safe until Bin Laden is dead and Al-Qaede is put out of business. Do I want to see more military lives lost, certainly not, I have a Grandson who will be shipping out soon. The President needs our support and so do those who are serving our President and Country.

[moodforaday]

228. Watch Fox much?

[Spazito]

144. Excellent OP!

The US fucked up Afghanistan beginning with it's war by proxy with the former USSR, using the mujahadeen aka Bin Laden et al as it's army and then left when the USSR did, both countries leaving Afghanistan in total chaos. It is appalling, imo, that 'the left' now wants the US to do that which was decried the first time. The US OWNS this and that includes each and every citizen whether they supported going in after 9/11 or not.

Finally there is an adult in the White House who is taking responsibility for what his country has done and acting accordingly.

Recommended.

[cliffordu]

246. I thank you.

[Jester Messiah]

145. K & f'n R

It's about time some sanity got posted today.

[FirstLight]

146. I cried last night as i listened to the speech

why...? for ALL the reasons you listed above.
Obama was handed a steaming plate of crap and is doing the best he can to make something out of it... I honestly believe that he would much rather be working on the things he envisioned when he spoke of hope during the campaign.

Instead he has to try and get these messes born of our 8 years of Cowboy Arrogance under control....and try to keep things from spiraling any further into destruction as he does so.
~~
I don't like the bankers getting the deals while the rest of us are groveling to survive
I hate wars and wish our troops were more skilled at building infrastructure and diplomacy with the peoples of these nations that have been razed by greed - rather than using bullets and bombs.
And Healthcare may end up being a shadow of a bill instead of what it should be.

But the road to recovery is never a straight and easy path and we have been in an abusive relationship with the NeoCons controlling our country for more than 8 years

And I have to trust that the man who has 2 young children and wants to ensure they HAVE a planet and a country full of opportunity is working hard to make that a reality... (because honestly, what else have we got to hope for?)

[Bobbie Jo]

149. Amen, Sister.

You said it.

...and another kick for this dose of reality. :kick:

[goclark]

153. Excellent Post!

It was so well said, I want to see it in print again....

YOUR WORDS.....
Obama was handed a steaming plate of crap and is doing the best he can to make something out of it... I honestly believe that he would much rather be working on the things he envisioned when he spoke of hope during the campaign.

Instead he has to try and get these messes born of our 8 years of Cowboy Arrogance under control....and try to keep things from spiraling any further into destruction as he does so.
~~
I don't like the bankers getting the deals while the rest of us are groveling to survive
I hate wars and wish our troops were more skilled at building infrastructure and diplomacy with the peoples of these nations that have been razed by greed - rather than using bullets and bombs.
And Healthcare may end up being a shadow of a bill instead of what it should be.

But the road to recovery is never a straight and easy path and we have been in an abusive relationship with the NeoCons controlling our country for more than 8 years"

[FirstLight]

175. Thanks, and let's remember it is about more than just US

There is so much anger, even here at DU about so much of the decisions being made to repair the damage that bushco left us ...

...what keeps coming to mind is the Ghandi quote "Be the change you wish to see in the world"
Perhaps that is how we DO this recovery thing...

I use the analogy of being in an abusive relationship with our country/leaders because it really does fit. As an abuse survivor, I recognize there are often times one seems to take steps 'backwards' in the healing process... if we can apply this to ourselves and our socitey as a whole, perhaps we can foster additional compassion and release from our pattern of fear and agression.

then again, I am an idealist... and I believe people are inherently GOOD. So I will continue to hold for that.
:grouphug:

[Fire1]

184. The anger is coming from CHILDREN with NO SENSE OF

responsibility!!!! It's ALL ABOUT, MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[cliffordu]

254. That's right.

They think the Oval Office is the Customer Service center of the government and their mp3 player sucks.

[Tigermoose]

336. lol-good one.

[goclark]

187. I'm with you all the way~ nt

[goclark]

461. Americans were abused by Bushco, we don't trust anyone

now.

However ~ it is a shame that we are eating our own.

[cliffordu]

467. Sure enough.

[cliffordu]

247. Amen.

[Dawgs]

278. Nice post.

I was disappointed in the troop increase a few days ago, but not anymore. Once again President Obama showed me why he's the best person for the job. I couldn't imagine having his responsibility.

[OneGrassRoot]

370. Bravo, FirstLight! Thanks for an inspiring post. :)

:hug:

[hellsbeagle]

148. cliffordu you nailed it on the head

I truly believe that war is murder, and that war is mankind's lowest endeavor. But to my sister and brother peaceniks out there whining about US casualties consider this: we fucked the Afghan people five ways to Sunday when we walked out on them after the Soviets withdrew in 1989. Just like we did to the Vietnamese people in 1975. We owe the people of Afghanistan a chance to have a good life.

[cliffordu]

248. Thanks, and

Great username, by the way....

[TankLV]

150. Tonight is NOT why I voted for- him - or more acccurately - against the OTHER idiots!!!

LBJ II.

ONE TERMER.

And that will be a GOOD thing...

unfortunately, the OTHER team will be even WORSE...

[redqueen]

356. "ONE TERMER. - And that will be a GOOD thing..."

"unfortunately, the OTHER team will be even WORSE..."

:crazy:

[TankLV]

504. Of course you wouldn't understand...

Obama is fast proving himself incompetant in doing ANYTHING.

Plus the fact that he actually SUPPORTS most of the crap that bush* instituted and HAS WORKED HARD TO PRESERVE WHAT bush* INSTITUTED!!!

If he's a ONE Termer, that will be a GOOD thing because he can't do any more DAMAGE.

But the only way he will be a ONE Termer, is if the opposition defeats him - which will be WORSE.

Not so hard to understand...

[redqueen]

556. If he is replaced by someone worse, that's somehow good... yep.

Got it.

[goclark]

151. Thank you for your post

That is just about the way I feel but could not express it that clearly.

What if we just packed our bags, brought our treasured troops home and walked away?

That would certainly have repercussions.

One thing I know for certain --- if the Republicans were still in office, we would have been looking in the wrong place again and the "winner ? " of the war would be Blackwater and Bush for $$'s and Company.

I don't believe that the current President is in it to get "$$$'s for Pay Pals" or to prove that he "Owns The World" and yearns to strut around in his Mission Accomplish Jumpsuit!

I sincerely believe that he does not strive to be the 21st Century Superman.

I will be supportive of his decision and I sincerely believe that he wants to have PEACE in the World.

[cliffordu]

249. yep, and thank you.

[riverwalker]

155. thanks for saying what needed to be said

I support President Obama and I trust him.

[ecstatic]

157. K and MF'in R

[Fire1]

160. "We'll fuck your shit up and then leave town." In a nutshell. n/t

[boomerbust]

161. You are correct sir

And beautifully put into words.:patriot:

[gratefultobelib]

162. Good post. Thanks.

[get the red out]

163. Thank you for what you wrote

I feel the same. And so many would rather rage than discuss here at DU, I hope some sanity returns.

We are all conditioned to instant gratification, and no, pointing out these things doesn't make someone "pro-war". There was a mess when the President entered the White House and because everything isn't roses right now, and difficult choices must be made, people declare war on him, forgetting how much is at stake.

I am tired of the rage and screaming on both sides in our society. It is time for more positive discussions and reasoned reactions. Democrats enjoy pointing out the unreasonableness of the other side, but we must start thinking of our own reactions.

[cliffordu]

256. Yep.

[NJmaverick]

164. I took great comfort watching him and listening to him

and knowing the Country is in his hands instead of that blitering idiot Bush

[graywarrior]

165. I don't walk away from a good leader just because I disagree and am not getting my way

Great post, BTW.

[Fire1]

172. That's because you are a THINKING ADULT!! n/t

[graywarrior]

177. Don't tell anyone here

[cliffordu]

268. Not to worry - many have no short term memory left, and are distracted

easily by shiny objects.

[moodforaday]

233. How much thinking does it take

to figure that killing people who are no threat to you is a good, adult thing to do? Must be a lot! You sure must have liked it when Bush was bombing Baghdad, did you? That was a show for Thinking People!

[Fire1]

244. And YOU KNOW they are no threat?? I assume you've SEEN

the intel reports.

[cliffordu]

239. Thanks.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

174. what a load of horse manure

The doublethink on display is astonishing. So when Obama follows the same path as Bush he is an "adult' while Bush was a "dangerous idiot"?

There is NOTHING for us to do there, don't you understand that yet? Your ideas that we can change in Afghanistan are the dictionary definition of hubris, amigo....and we all know how that works out. YOU HAVE NO CONTROL.

The good news for you is that we will see exactly how your support of this escalation turns out. Enjoy it.

[Fire1]

179. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why do you think

he is TRYING TO BUILD A STRATEGIC ALLIANCE WITH PAKISTAN??!!!!! SOMEBODY WITH SOME SEMBLENCE OF GOVERNMENT AND ORDER has got to KEEP those fuckers in CHECK!!!!!!!

edit to add: Cause, if they DON'T keep them in check, the next thing you know, they'll be in YOUR BACK YARD AGAIN!!!!

[moodforaday]

237. I think it was Scott Ritter

who said there are two kinds of anti-war people. Some are anti any war, because war is wrong no matter how you look at it (unless you are defending yourself on your own ground). But there are more of those who are anti LOSING a war. There's been a lot of the latter on DU since Obama took office. During Bush you couldn't really tell the two groups apart so easily.

[Fire1]

251. It's more, "mission accomplished" than "winning." We all know

this cannot be "won."

[cliffordu]

270. Tell the class how these paths are identical.

Your posit is bogus.

[closeupready]

178. Must be a very comfy position you find yourself in, then, huh?

Want some nachos to munch on in your Laz-e-boy?

[cliffordu]

272. WTF are you saying??

Are you drinking?

[closeupready]

289. English is your second language, I see.

n/t

[arcadian]

180. Thank God It Passed!

[pjt7]

185. CliffordDU,

I wonder if you support Tim Geithner or Larry Sumners?

[cliffordu]

274. Nope. Misspelled my user name, too, which oddly enough has

nothing to do with DU and everything to do with my first name and middle initial. Been using it online since around 1996.

[ShortnFiery]

191. Last night is why I won't be voting for him in 2012 ... nothing will change that FACT.

It's so depressing to realize that your President is nothing more than a puppet of the MIC and Wall Street.

However, let's reflect? Almost EVERY action has either ben neutral or been IN FAVOR of multi-national CORPORATE interest of our ruling elite.

President Obama serves the moneyed RULING ELITE, he does not serve the Average American and he sure as Hell could care less about the welfare of our honorable Military.

I will NEVER again cast a vote for a Corporate Democrat. Not after last night. :grr:

[cliffordu]

275. So you'll be moving on to greener pastures, then??

[debbierlus]

197. If that is why you voted for Obama, that is a truly sad commentary

[cliffordu]

280. Sadder is the lack of willingness to repair what two bushes helped create.

And There ain't nothing sad about it. except that it won't pass the purity test.

[debbierlus]

198. If that is why you voted for Obama, that is a truly sad commentary

[Fire1]

288. Many voted for "secular issues.' Not the man or the party. n/t

[cliffordu]

316. Glad I could make you feel better.

[RoadRage]

200. K&R! I'm soooo SICK of the "Anti-War"

crowd that think that by leaving tomorrow we'd be saving more lives. Is it better to go in and kill AQ and Taliban, or hurry up and leave so that AQ & the Taliban can then go on to kill everyone who they want to opress but can't? All of the innocent people who just want to work and live, and not be subjected to the mob rule of the land that the Taliban want to impose?

If we can stay for 2 years and help set up some sort of a structure for the Afghan people to run with - then yes, it's worth it. I realize that this doesn't come with any guarantee.. but then again, nothing does. There is no guarantee that if we leave tomorrow, 20 more terrorists won't be here in 2012 ready to blow up the subway and train stations.

Stability = peace.

[pjt7]

216. & I'm sick of the lies of 9.11

that our polytricksters use over & over & over.

[Chulanowa]

229. Most anti-war people are just out there to look hip for their friends

This was the case in the 60's, and it's the truth now. Of course there are some truly earnest and dedicated anti-war people in both periods, but mostly? It's people trying to score political fashion points.

"Just leaving" doesn't equal peace. As you say, stability is peace. You can't have peace unless you provide a reason for people to not fight.

Advice, though? Don't start wanking the "we're fighting them over there so we don't fight them over here" - that's bullshit.

[cliffordu]

282. Yep.

[Amonester]

470. And I'm sooooo SICK of the "Fear-Monger"(s) who bring(s) back...

the made-it-happen-on-purpose "gulf-of-tonkin-type" ghost every time they try to justify illegal invasions for greed into which tens of thousands of fellow citizens lost their lives or/and sanity to enrich the already wealthy-enough EMPIRE builder$.

Now go and crawl under your bed for the night. Hope you'll feel safe enough to take a subway ride someday.

A few crazy tea-baggers might wanna do 'em too... u no?

Sanity = peace.

[PatSeg]

217. You said it so well

I haven't forgotten eight years of Bush/Cheney and know the mess they left won't be a quick, easy fix. The realist in me knows we can't just walk away, even though the peacenik in me would like it to end quickly.

[cliffordu]

283. Thanks.

[Turbineguy]

220. Well said.

We have to fix what Bush broke.

And we knew that in 2000.

[pjt7]

279. O played the fear card

right down to the b.s. 19 hijackers.

I looked in his eyes & saw a bullsht$r, puppet.

[Fire1]

320. Somebody should have played it before 3,000 people got killed.

[stranger81]

225. I cannot believe there are this many war supporters here.

Killing and maiming is apparently A-OK as long as the person ordering it has a "D" behind his name.

I can't even count the number of times I heard the same "we must destroy the village in order to save it" bullshit from neocons supporting Bush over the last eight years. And now, it's DU orthodoxy.

Sad and pathetic.

[NoSheep]

234. Oversimplification probably due to short attention span.

sad and pathetic

[stranger81]

242. Tell that to all the Afghans who will be dead by the end of next year as a result of this decision.

I'm sure they'll appreciate your nuanced complexity.

[Fire1]

255. In such chaos, they would be dead anyway and nothing to show

for it but corruption and more chaos spilling over into other countries.

[blindpig]

271. Nothing to show?

What's something?

[Fire1]

273. I don't talk to "dining room tables." n/t

[NoSheep]

321. I would tell them this:

Pakistan, a nuclear power, earlier this year, allowed the Taliban to implement Islamic law in the Swat Valley (until we were blackmailed into giving them more money to prevent further encroachment by these extremists)then they started fighting them again. Remember that from this past summer? I think we are trying to make Afghanistan more stable so the two countries can stand up to the extremism. Two-thirds of the new troops are intended to train Afghans in security. I think we are trying to help them get a vital security force so the Taliban can't take over and the fact that there is an imaginary line drawn between the 2 countries doesn't seem to matter much. There are no plans on the table to continue that indefinitely which was explained very clearly last night. We can't afford it. That's exactly what Obama said. It isn't simply about "not liking" the Taliban and wanting to kill Afghans. I think it's about stabilizing the region as much as possible without going way further into bankruptcy. We do need to keep Pakistan from becoming vulnerable to enemies because they are a nuclear power now.

I understand the Taliban to be a fundamentalist extreme right wing Islamist group who, because they do not recognize the laws enacted by governments, destabilize the areas they are in. They actually provide some services apparently that lead folks in a place such as these impoverished areas of the Middle East to join up and fight for territory with them. al Quaeda is an international terrorist group that while started in this region, finds safe haven as well as recruits in many destabilized areas. In the Middle East, they are kind of existing side by side. There are many who join these groups due to having ZERO security otherwise. These areas are extremely poor and led by rival tribes. This is why things are kinda murky there to say the least. If we can pull enough citizens away from the allure of marginal security the Taliban provide and allure of seeming purpose that al Quaeda provide, we may be able to train them to keep stability in their region, HOPEFULLY making it safer for everyone, especially because of Pakistan's nukes. We have to prop up Pakistan otherwise we could have nukes in the hands of the Taliban. Instead of paying them bribes all the time I think we are sending our people in there to train them to take care of themselves or at least we are going to try. We could go on and on like this or go over ourselves in earnest and try to deal with it by training the poorer people in the region to provide their own security because the Bush administration DIDN'T DO THAT. (they had no interest in it because they wanted the war to continue. It made them richer) I think we are trying to get SOMETHING for the money we spend over there and then get out. That's what I think is happening.


And as for the 'more deaths" theory...if the Taliban implement sharia law all over the region, women ESPECIALLY don't stand a chance. Because this is the real world and not an ideal one, I think the lesser of 2 evils has been chosen. It sucks. Life sucks.

[cliffordu]

338. Great fucking reply. It should be it's own Original Post.

I mean it. Please post this as it's own OP so it doesn't get lost in the shouting.

[NoSheep]

347. It's actually 3 replies cut and pasted together. What would I title it?

edited to spell properly

[cliffordu]

384. The Taliban, Pakistan, Afghanistan and the problem with leaving them alone.

Or something like that.....

You make excellent points. make more of them...You see a bigger picture than I do.

[RaleighNCDUer]

548. I agree, with one exception -

I think the danger of Pakistani nukes comes not from the Taliban seizing them (if it got THAT chaotic we'd send special forces in to take control of and remove those nukes - then after the fact say we were asked to do it) but from the Taliban and AQ destabilizing Pakistan to the extent that a war is provoked between Pakistan and India (the intent of the Mumbai attack last year). It is easy to see a 5th Pakistan/India war going nuclear.

It would be interesting to see how the region stabilizes after Islamabad and New Dehli have nuked each other.

[RaleighNCDUer]

551. Maybe that depends on which Afghans you want to see dead -

the ones that are shooting at us, or the ones who have been trying to re-establish civil government since 1979.

Cuz I guarantee, if we just up and leave, THOSE Afghans will be executed in soccer stadiums again, by the thousands.

[cliffordu]

285. What's really pathetic is that is all you can see in my OP.

Disgusting, actually.

[blindpig]

286. The curtain has been ripped away.

The 'big tent' is on fire.

[cliffordu]

395. Bogus posit unsupported by the real world facts. Keep on keepin' on, though

[Chulanowa]

226. You said exactly what i've been trying to get across to people for the last week

"I hate this war but I cannot advocate leaving these people to their own devices after COMPLETELY destroying their 9th century infrastructure.

And that is the ONLY reason I back the President in this. We have to leave them something other than weapons and the greatest narcotics business in the world."

Dead fucking on.

[cliffordu]

290. Thank you..

[GeorgeGist]

240. Fool me once

[tclambert]

253. Excellent post. The extremists present a false dichotomy--war or bring home every single soldier now

But those are NOT the only two alternatives. We should learn something from the very different outcomes in Korea and in Vietnam. We left about 30,000 troops in South Korea, not fighting anybody. Their real mission is not to fight, but to prevent a new fight from starting. For over 50 years, they have succeeded. They are, in fact, the most effective military force America now has. (The American forces in Germany for the past 60 years deserve a nod for helping to deter the Soviets from invading and starting World War III, but nuclear deterrence played a part in that, as well.)

In Vietnam, we pulled all our fighting forces, leaving no Korea-style "tripwire" force behind. Two years after we abandoned Vietnam, the North invaded again, and the security forces we had trained in South Vietnam (a million of them) fell apart. Had we left some troops behind, the North might have thought better of restarting a war for fear of bringing on another massive American response.

Military historians and generals often have a problem with this sort of military application. They can fall in love with battles. Historians will write in loving detail about battles. But who wants to write the 50-year history of keeping the peace in Korea? Generals can fall in love with the fighting, too. That's where they earn glory. Who wants to command a peace-keeping force that just patrols a fence line and never fires a shot? Where's the glory? Yet South Korea survives and has become an economic powerhouse, while South Vietnam was absorbed and is still a place of misery.

My solution: Leave some troops, but NOT for fighting. Leave them to discourage invasion and allow the infant nation to grow into something worthwhile. Declare a cease-fire. And make it last 50 years. It turns out cease-fires are a lot less expensive yet a lot more productive than combat.

[cliffordu]

293. I believe what you are describing is what Obama is working towards.

Some small presence to allow the pretense of civilization....or let one grow....

[JNelson6563]

257. What I don't get

What is progressive about totally ruining a country and then leaving. I think we owe it to those poor people to help them try to pull it together. It's the least we can do.

Julie

[Fire1]

262. Frankly, I don't think any of us believe they will EVER get it

together. That's why it's really not about "winning" a war and more about responsibility and keeping them in check.

[moodforaday]

264. How are you going to help Afghanistan

by doing more killing? Can you please explain?

Want to help Afghanistan? Send in construction crews, engineers, doctors and teachers, hire as much local workforce as you can and pay their salaries. Wouldn't that be a bit more progressive than dropping bombs?

[cliffordu]

297. Uh, not to be too smug, but that is exactly what the extra troops are going

to start -

Three combat brigades and the rest are construction and training specialists.


And someone to protect the fucking red cross.

[JNelson6563]

411. Our troops cana do those things

There aren't just combat troops there. Training and rebuilding. That's what's needed and we owe them at least that.

Not quite as dramatic as your "dropping bombs" schtick but hey, it's all I got.

Julie--not enjoying the current episode of hysterics on DU

[apnu]

259. K&R you expressed my opinions better than I could have. Thank You. (nt)

[Catamount]

260. As someone who has always been against this war (all wars) from....

the beginning, I also agree with you.

No matter what, this man has been thrown to the wolves and cannot do anything right in some people's minds.

While I personally wished that he had fired Mc Chrystal and withdrawn us from this quagmire immediately, I am willing to believe that our president has a strategy to win the hearts and minds of the people in this region.

I am willing to wait and see, before I criticize him for this, when he always said that he needed to complete the mission in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Suddenly everybody is surprised?

Sad as I am today with his decision--I am still proud to have President Obama in office.

K&R

[cliffordu]

300. thanks, catamount.

[blindpig]

269. So I guess you voted for this too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7135014

[Fire1]

281. Fail.

:thumbsdown:

[blindpig]

284. Explain

Come on, I know you can.

[Fire1]

302. I've "explained" throughout this thread. The President

"explained" and dumbed it down as best he could last night. I will not attempt to comepete with willful ignorance.

[closeupready]

292. Apparently.

n/t

[cliffordu]

306. When you're out of ideas post photos of corpses.

Got any of the taliban beheading of women in the sports stadium??

What about the Taliban throwing acid in the faces of schoolgirls? I got a few of those we can trade !!!!!

And you can go rub them on yourself, or whatever.

[closeupready]

314. yes, because of course, corprses have nothing to do with warfare.

:sarcasm:

THAT'S WHAT WAR IS ALL ABOUT!!!! :mad:

[cliffordu]

318. What Obama is doing is NOT all about war.

But since you cannot understand that, it's all war all the time.

FWIW -

under half of the troops going are combat troops. Over half are trainers and construction outfits and support staff.

Build some infrastructure, train some guys, protect the UN and the red fucking cross, stop the bleeding and get the fuck out works for me.

But in your black and white world none of this works...

[closeupready]

322. self-delte - nver mind, i'm done here.

n/t

[Amonester]

483. Sorry to burst your bubble, but none of these things...

"Build some infrastructure, train some guys, protect the UN and the red fucking cross, stop the bleeding and get the fuck out"

NONE of these things (except the get the f**k out part) stand a frickin' chance to last more than 5 minutes after we'll get the fuck out, be it tomorrow, in 3 months, in a year, two years, ten years, or a hundred (IF LIFE ON THIS PLANET STILL EXISTS).

And that, whether or not 1, 10, 487, 3,529 MORE US and NATO troops & civilians lose their lives, limbs and/or sanity.

You have the right to believe any rosy script all you want, though.

Hope you won't feel too disapointed around June '11.

Take care.

[blindpig]

325. Ah, good for the goose, eh?

Afghanistan had a perfectly women friendly government until the US government started mucking things up. Much more women friendly than the regime which we have installed, in fact.

Oh yes, the fucking genius who came up with that one has this president's ear.

Btw, I don't see the US government intervening in other countries where women are oppressed, like say Saudi Arabia.

[cliffordu]

331. None of that changes the fact that if we need to fix SOME of what we have

destroyed so far.

[blindpig]

351. Yeah, right

firepower is so good for fixing things.

So I guess we will destroy Afghanistan in order to save it. Where did I hear that before?

http://revcom.us/a/027/vietnam-destroy-village.htm

[cliffordu]

393. False flag or strawman?? Your argument is a bogus posit based on the

ignorant assumption that all the troops going are combat troops.

Three brigades are combat brigades the rest are trainers and construction.

Obama is NOT doing what bush would do and it's pretty fucking ill to think that's true.

[blues90]

276. This insanity has been going on far too long .

You can write the words and lay out the praise but none of this will ever erase the reality of what the US has been doing for decades.

None of these are wars that can be won , they are power grabs for resource promoted by corporate interests. None of these are wars that can be justified ever.

All the soldiers and citizens died for greed of corporations.

We hear all this spill over of the same talk the last admin let out and the reality is we cannot change Afghanistan or act for a second that they voted for a government. It's a tribal land with a puppet government.

Sending 30,000 more will never fix this and there will never be a government. All that will result from this is more death and more hate.

[cliffordu]

309. OK - What resources did we plunder out of Vietnam? korea??

Out of Somalia, out of the Balkans???

Bogus posits are bogus posits....

Just cause the war in Iraq was based on oil, doesn't mean any of the rest were.

And what possible fucking grab are we trying in the second worst place on the planet??

[blues90]

359. Vietnam brought us trade with China thanks to Kissenger

This all came out 5/26/ 2006, read up on it. And now we have trade with vietnam . Capitalisms push for cheap labor= corporate greed.

Afghanistan the goal has always been and still is the pipeline.

Time will tell but sending 30,000 more is not going to change a damn thing other than to create more death to no end.

Would not it make more sense if we fear terrorist attacks here to secure our own borders and keep the troops here to do so? After all they need to get in this country to pull off attacks and they can't swim here.

And it's not always about resource but also global position and power and power gives control.

Right now the focus is on Afghanistan and Pakistan , Pakistan has nukes , wonder how that happened? The border between the two is the focus.

You tell me what you think we can do to fix Afghanistan . They have been hit many times over and went right back to where they where before. They want us out as did Iraq.

[cliffordu]

382. We need to fix what infrastructure we destroyed, which is considerable,

We need to wean the farmers off of the narcotics and teach them to grow crops that will help feed the country,

We need to protect the red cross and the red crescent and other aid outfits so SOME semblance of medical care can be set up......

Protecting a humanitarian mission is my idea of a decent use of combat troops.

People like Doctors without Borders.

We need to finish training their fucking army so they can wrestle with the border along Pakistan and run off the foreign fighters....


Little stuff that MIGHT make a difference.

There are many here that think those things are useless to America. I do not.

[western mass]

287. so you're saying: "We got to get 'er done!"

Not much more substance to your argument than that.

[closeupready]

294. That's what I think. Very basic argument wrapped up in pretty paper.

Not buying.

[Fire1]

295. Not much substance in your opposition, either. Typical amurkan.

[cliffordu]

310. Sure there is.

It's not my fault you're too ignorant to understand it.

Nice try, though.

[Taverner]

291. Well written, but I disagree

Every day we spend in AfPak is a waste. There is no good we can do there. If you want to "win" the war, well we already did. Our guy (Karzai) is in charge. Time to raise a flag and declare victory.

If we want to destroy Al Queda, they aren't in Afghanistan. They're in Pakistan.

[skepticscott]

429. Karzai in charge?

You must be joking. He has no control at all over large areas of the country, and his government is a joke. He barely qualifies as mayor of Kabul, and if it weren't for US support, he wouldn't even be that.

[Taverner]

430. I didn't say he did - but managing his own country is his problem, not ours

We paved the way for him to have his seat, the rest is up to him

He is Afghanistan's Ngo Dinh Diem.

[skepticscott]

455. And yet you proclaimed it our victory

and not his. How is having a weak puppet who has no real power and will be ousted or dead as soon as we leave in office a "win" for the US?

[The_Casual_Observer]

299. The 30,000 after this one will be done quietly, like the 30,000

before this were, to avoid having to give the speech again for a couple of years.

[Matariki]

301. "after COMPLETELY destroying their 9th century infrastructure"

It would be FAR more responsible to give aid to help REBUILD that infrastructure - along with building schools, programs that foster women's rights and so forth. That would go much, much further to oust the Taliban from the area then INVADING their country with 30,000 more troops.

Common sense says that it's easier to send in troops than to withdraw them.

Supposedly we were going into Iraq to 'liberate' them - but then committed atrocities like at Fallujah using white phosphorus and depleted uranium. Raping, murdering, and killing the families of 15 year old girls. Abu Ghraib.

Tell me, how will this be different?

[stopbush]

304. Excellent post. Quite refreshing to see it, what with what passes for

received opinion at DU these days.

Obama has made the right decision, the necessary decision. Just the way Eisenhower/FDR et al made the right decision to launch D-Day, even though it meant thousands of lives would be lost, and even though there was no guarantee of success.

Unfortunately for Obama, the country and the world, his decision was in large part influenced by the disaster wrought by cheney/bush over the past 8 years. Serious, adult leaders can't walk away from the mistakes made by their predecessors. They have to fix those mistakes as they best see fit. It would be a mistake to assume that Obama is continuing a mistake or making a new mistake in Afghanistan. He is providing a plan with a way out while trying to leave something better in Afghanistan that cheney/bush left.

Yes, more Americans will die, but those deaths are the responsibility of, shall we say, the starting pitchers (cheney/bush), not the relief pitcher who was brought in in the late innings to hopefully salvage the game.

When I voted for Obama, I voted for a man who I felt had the intellectual capacity to see things a different way that had been seen by cheney/bush. I didn't vote for a man with whom I agreed on every issue. I am willing to give his strategy time to work, be it on Afghanistan or health care. I've got to believe that he has access to information that the rest of us don't, and that - unlike cheneybush - he will make a decision for the good of the country, rather than for his personal gain or ideology.

It may be naive on my part to feel positively about Obama's decision, but it would be far easier to be negative about it. After all, being negative is almost always a win-win: if things go south, you can say, "I told you so." If things go well, the negative remarks are quickly forgotten and everyone bathes in the sunshine of, "I guess he was right after all."

Fair weather political support is as plentiful as it is worthless.

I owe this man my support. Not blind support, but support informed by the rationale that led me to support him when I voted for him in the CA primary and later, for POTUS. Those reasons haven't changed, because at heart, the man hasn't changed. If the vast majority of my fellow DUers feel differently, so be it.

[cliffordu]

312. Excellent response, thank you.

[impik]

541. Applause, applause. Really. The

best comment i read in the madness of the past day.

[liquid diamond]

584. This is one of the most beautiful posts I've read here.

Thank you.

[grahamhgreen]

307. The war there should be on poverty. Reconstruction. Building. More troops is the wrong direction.

You will never win there by killing people and propping up the corrupt narco-state/ Islamic republic that we have set up.

IMHO.

Good luck, but if this plan fails as it has for 8 years, please listen to us eventually.

In the mean time, we need to fix out country before we can fix others.

[Fire1]

308. Wrong. The TALIBAN doesn't want us there.

edit: to respond to your original post prior to editing.

[grahamhgreen]

317. I stand corrected! It's the air strikes that they want stopped.

"People were also questioned about the use of air strikes by US and other foreign troops. Was this acceptable, they were asked, because it helps to defeat the Taleban and other anti-government fighters - or unacceptable because it endangers too many innocent civilians?

Sixteen per cent said acceptable but 77% said unacceptable.

Among other key findings:

* 59% think the government is making some or a lot of progress in providing a better life

* 48% think the government is doing a good or excellent job, down from 59% last year and 80% in 2005
* 52% think President Karzai is doing a good or excellent job as against 63% last time and 83% in 2005.
* 63% support the presence of US forces - down from 71% in 2007 and 78% in 2006 "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7872353.stm

[Techn0Girl]

319. Wrong. The Taliban in charge will respond to WHATEVER makes them wealthy and powerful

Bribes have worked so far just fine.
And bribes cost a LOT less than the number of Americans that will be killed and injured there.

Not to mention that there isn't an Afganisti in the country who wouldn't forever decry the Taliban for the equivalent of a few thousand U.S. bucks which is a small fortune there.

Give the people houses and farms and they'll tell the Taliban to kiss their Islamic ass.

[Fire1]

324. So, you think you can get rid of the "mob" just that easy, huh?

Theorist.

[Techn0Girl]

342. Come back and talk war AFTER YOU go.

Better a theorist than a Chickenhawk.
I'm not the one proposing to have more Americans killed.

[Fire1]

352. Riiiiiiiight. n/t

[grahamhgreen]

446. Peace is how all wars end. nt

[cliffordu]

315. Most of the soldiers going are NOT combat troops.

THree brigades out of 30,000 are. the rest are trainers and construction/ infrastructure specialists.

[Techn0Girl]

323. Good things cooks, medics, truck drivers and trainers never get blown up in war...

Ever been to war?
Didn't think so.
You should go. It would do you some good.

[cliffordu]

327. Uh.....

:rofl:


Maybe you should look up 'vietnam service medal' on the google...

:rofl: :bounce:

[Techn0Girl]

334. My bad and my apologies then to you ...

I made an assumption (not an unreasonable one under the circumstances as you well know). I served as well. I will now assume that you are actually telling the truth and are a Vietnam Vet. I've met a LOT of military posers on the internet but I will assume that you are not one of them.

Still though I cannot fathom why , having served when and where you did, that you would wish the same on anyone else. We will have to agree to disagree. We will never see eye to eye on this.

I served in the Army as a medic. I know, as well as you what happens and what this is going to do to another 10,000 to 30,000 men and women and I do not want it to happen. Not for this. Not so Haliburton can make a better profit.

[cliffordu]

343. Someone always makes loads in war.

IBM made billions during WWII selling punchcard machines to the NAZI's who used them to count people headed for the concentration camps (and IBM KNEW it.)

This is about setting something right. This is not a simple expansion of the war. Please understand that, he is NOT sending thirty thousand combat troops. Most of them are trainers for the police and the military and construction people.

[Techn0Girl]

348. The woman in my earlier story who got her leg blown off...

She worked in motorpool.
This was does NOTHING to insure the safety of America.
Nothing.

It will kill and injure over 20,000 more American young men and woman.
It does NOTHING to insure our safety.
It didn't when Bush was in power.
It doesn't now.
Nothing's changed.

[cliffordu]

358. I don't think you are really TRYING to understand the difference.

[Techn0Girl]

362. No I am not trying to understand...you are right

It is true that my mind is made up and the only thing that would change it is clear evidence that Afghanistan poses a direct threat to America. Nothing else is worth sending in young men and women, thousands upon thousands of whom will be sent back in a box or forever disabled.

Other than that my mind is made up.

[Techn0Girl]

313. Tell that to the parents of the next 5000 sons and daughters who will die there....

Or the next 10,000 Vets to come home with traumatic brain injuries...
Or the next 50,000 who come home with PTSD....

So glad you made the right decision.

Here is a graph showing U.S. troop levels in Afghanistan over the years

For 2010 you will need to DOUBLE the height of the rightmost bar.
That's right, it will go to the all the way up to the top of this post



There is a cost to war and you aren't paying it are you?

[cliffordu]

326. None of this would be necessary if the Bushy boys along with the

other idiotic NEOCONS hadn't drug us into this rathole.

And apparently you have Afghanistan mixed up with Iraq. Different levels of troops actually doing the fighting.



I came home with PTSD and a nice purple heart. I've worked with homeless veterans for years off and on - don't you dare fucking lecture me on the cost of this business.

Some things are worth the stretch. Sorry you don't understand that.

We have to help rebuild what we fucked up over there or we are no better than the NEOCONS.

[Techn0Girl]

330. Well I am a Vet as well... so I'll continue to lecture...

I can not understand how someone who has served when and where you did and had been injured in can be pro-war... but having been in the military I see it does happen . A lot. So I'll absolutely continue to lecture.

I've lived and worked with disabled Vets as well.

I remember one from two years ago. A young woman. "non-combatant"
She got her leg all but blown off by an IED while she was riding in a jeep in Iraq. She came back homeless and with severe PTSD - took her about a year of therapy to just begin to get normal. Young , in shape woman. Can't walk without a cane now. Had to fight the V.A. for over a year WHILE she was psychologically disabled in order to get full benefits. Ended up living in a homeless shelter for Vets but moved into a Veteran half-way house and started going back to college at the end.

Good on you for serving and sorry that you got injured but why you would wish this on the tens of thousands it ill happen to (as you WELL know) is completely beyond me.

[cliffordu]

337. Because what is going to happen there is not completely about the combat.

Because we need to right something we fucked up.

There will be a short sharp increase in violence and IF our people there can help start the repair of the infrastructure and the training of their people, we CAN start getting out in two years.


After 8 years of tearing shit apart, 2 years of attempting to make it right is the LEAST we can do.

Walking off just fucks everyone over there, including thousands who believed in what we said we were going to do when we kicked the door down.

Some stuff is worth the stretch.

[Techn0Girl]

339. It's not an "either-or" proposition...

We don't have to just "walk off"...
We can give weapons to the Afghastinis...we can arm and train the Pakistanis...we can use our intelligence and CIA and remote drones (like we are currently doing in Pakistan right now) to help fight. We can give aid and arms to Pakistani farmers. We can destroy Poppy foelds with drones...

So many options...
But instead we escalate a war that kills Americans and makes profit for War Contracters.
Unacceptable

[cliffordu]

346. he is doping exactly everything the first part of your post says -

to read what he is doing as a simple escalation is wrong.

[Techn0Girl]

354. Didn't say that he was not doing some of the other things...

Just that we DO NOT need the amount of troops we have in there.

There is ONLY about 100 Al-queda in Afghanistan. Did you know that? Look it up - I would not lie to you about any of this. We're both Vets. Its a fact.

Did you know that the brother of the current Afghan President is Afghanistan's major heroin exporter? Look it up - it's verifiable. Is THAT what we are fighting for?

Afghanistan poses NO threat to America.
There were NO Afghanis who were involved in 9-11. 15 of the 19 terrorists on the planes were citizens of Saudi Arabia.

Who cares if Afghanistan come under Sharia law?
Do we care about China having prison sweat shops? Do we invade every African country that has an evil dictatorship?

Afghanistan poses NO direct threat to America and we should NOT be sending Americans in there to die. There are other ways.

[Fire1sKid]

414. We cant rip a country to shreds and then leave

without leaving their government some sort of fundamentals and basis of rebuilding their country (which we fucked up),how to rebuild it,and finally help them develop a stable military to keep the Taliban from overthrowing the government that we will help them rebuild as well.Secondly a lot of people have to understand that THIS IS POLITICS,no politician in history will ever have a one-sided agenda,YES I SAID IT,NOT EVEN OBAMA.I often hear on here of Obama's campaign promises,well one of them was to be bipartisan (which I disagree with for the most part)and in carrying out this promise he has to feed the neocons there meat as well as please his supporters which he is doing by putting a deadline on this entire situation.

[Fire1]

349. No. You're not gonna lecture to anybody that doesn't want to

be lectured to!

[Fire1]

328. Nobody is justifying the casualties under the bush regime.

So, you can stop that lie, now. Iraq was a farce from jump and everybody knows it. So, don't blame us! We didn't put that fool in office for eight years.

[BlueJac]

329. The Bull shit "we can't leave these people in this kind of mess"....

justification is total nonsense. We will never leave,we will fuck with elections, assassinate who ever we want to and run this puppet government how we see fit. I am tired of running the entire world through bullshit colored glasses. Stop this nonsense and bring the troops home. Quit using "support our troops" slogans and really support them by bringing them home and giving them their lives back!!!

[Fire1]

333. He WILL bring them home and ON TIME. He's a politician

remember. You don't honestly think those trips to the middle east were photo ops and benevolence, do you? This is a strategic plan in more ways than one.

[Techn0Girl]

335. Really he missed his Iraqui pull-out date by over a year if we pull them out next summer....

but NEXT time will be different, right?

What are you drinking?

[RaleighNCDUer]

340. Right - when, exactly, did he say he would have the troops out of Iraq

by the summer of '09? I seem to have missed that.

[Techn0Girl]

344. Actually he proposed March of 09 during his campaign...He actually said that he had a plan to do tha

And if you don't know that or don't have the wherewithall to go take the two minutes to look it up than you're just being ingenuous and not worth talking to further

[cliffordu]

360. Um.....

:rofl: :bounce:


Being ingenious.......

:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

380. I cannot find it because he NEVER SAID IT.

He was fully aware that it was logistically impossible to remove all the troops from Iraq in one month.

He did say he would like to begin removing one battalion a month starting in the summer of 09, with all combat troops out in app. a year and a half. But that was before he got into office and got any briefings about the situation on the ground. He is still aiming at that 1 1/2 year mark, but the drawdown will be faster because it started later.

In THIS situation, he's not only been briefed on the situation on the ground but he has studied it extensively - he as been in office for 10 months now - and if he is announcing a timetable it is because he is confident that it can be achieved.

[Techn0Girl]

390. READ AND LEARN WHAT OBAMA SAID...

New York Times... Obama puts forth a plan to remove ALL troops by end of 2008 .
The money quote (stated in 2007):

"“The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq’s leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops,” Mr. Obama said. “Not in six months or one year — now.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/13/us/politics/13obama.html?pagewanted=print

Just because you refuse to see doesn't mean it didn't happen

[RaleighNCDUer]

403. From September 07 - was he president then?

Had the surge taken effect then?

The purpose of his proposal was to make the Iraqi leadership sit up and take notice - which they DID (though that was brought about by the surge, not his comments on the campaign trail). Casualty rates are reduced, violence is reduced, civil government is exercising its authority there. And his plan to get out of Iraq is still on track.

I think it could be going faster, but then, I don't know shit because I am not in any position to know.

You take a hypothetical, founded not in reality but in heartfelt desire, and bitch because he didn't live up to the fantasy.

That's sloppy thinking.

[Techn0Girl]

410. Sloppy thinking ?

Silly little me.
Actually thinking that the man bith knew what he was talking about back then and believed in what he was saying.

Sorry. My bad.

[RaleighNCDUer]

552. So you really believe that he had the authority, a year and a half before

taking office, to order the withdrawal of troops from Iraq?

:rofl:

[Fire1]

363. I'm just dandy, thanks. Got some of that PROZAC they were

passing out to you all, during the bush years.

[cliffordu]

350. I hadn't thought of that.....

Just in time for the 2012 election.....


Bwaha ahah ahah ahah

Unless this doesn't work, then we are screwn.

[SemperEadem]

332. well said. I agree.

[Swamp Rat]

345. Speaking of New Orleans, we could use a few billion dollars to fix our levees and pumps,

all of which are broken and do not work. It floods every time it rains hard, and we cannot even take a CAT 2 hurricane (officially, but I don't think we can even take a CAT 1 that has a high storm surge).

We also have a 100 yr old water and sewage system that is disintegrating as I type. Just a few blocks away a water main burst 2-3 months ago causing a mini geyser in the middle of a major avenue... no one has even started to fix it and cars are crashing nearly every day into a ever-growing sink hole (there are many all over the city). This is one of hundreds (thousands?) of busted pipes. We are paying 25% of our water bill to pay for an EPA fine, so we will NEVER have the money to fix the system... it's like we've flipped on a mortgage for the entire city infrastructure... Our drinking water has fecal coliforms in it!!!

There is the absolute worst chemical and waste dumping going on in New Orleans East and St. Bernard Parish, probably the worst in the USA because NO ONE IS STOPPING THEM FROM DUMPING EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! FUCK!!!!!! :mad:

:hi: cliffordu :patriot:

[cliffordu]

355. Howdy, SwampRat!!!

Sorry your city is completely fucked up - If I could change it I surely would.

You seem fit as a fiddle, though....:rofl:

I'm surprised Obama hasn't been aggressive with fixing N'awlins.... It sure seems like that would be a winner for the national psyche as well as the folks who live in your fine city.

:hi:

[wicket]

368. A-fucking-men

:yourock:

[cliffordu]

372. I thank you.

[Generator]

377. Ha ha ha-of course you did!

Where do you think the money is EVER gonna come for you know this country-America? I missed the part about my duty to Afghanistan as an American citizen. I guess we must nation build because LORD knows every ting is just fine and dandy in America.

Just like the neocons-well they had no intention of EVER leaving Iraq or Afghanistan. Sure Obama says we are going to leave but I believe that as much as I ever believed anything that came out of Bush's mouth. The Pentagon/CIA rule this country and war is what they live for. We will be a third world shit hole in another 25 years. No health care, no infrastructure, nothing for America. But yeah-let's spend billions into the endless hole that is Afghanistan. I sure prefer that to affordable health care for all. And who the fuck are you lying to but yourself? Do the deaths of however many Afghans matter to you? Oh No! We can't talk about that. More drone attacks. More death. Thousands more wounded soldiers. How many people are we really paying to fight these wars? 74,000 military contractors-those are just the ones we know about. And how many more soldiers? We learned noting from Vietnam. And apparently eight years of Bush/Cheney wasn't enough for the likes of people like you. I really see no difference in Obama than Bush when it comes to war. Yeah, Obama will be more competent at killing I guess. He gives much better speeches. Death is still death. And the military/CIA still rule.

Glad you got what you voted for!

[cliffordu]

379. And I'm glad your hatred can be expressed here dressed up as

activist politics.

We broke it, we need to fix a little of it.

Bush fucked their country up worse than it already was, (difficult to believe but true..) and then walked away to the fun and games in Iraq.....and you're willing to walk away, too.


That's fine. Thanks for showing your true colors. Can't be inconvenienced to right what the NECONS fucked up in YOUR name. Perfect.

[truthrocks]

381. BEAUTIFULLY STATED! Obama's Courage, Integrity & Intelligence on full display in

this difficult decision. This IS who we elected and WHY we elected him.

[TheCML]

383. Exactly!

It takes an unmeasurable amount of courage to send someone else's kids to an unwinnable war on the other side of the globe. Some of you people are insane, do you honestly think these 30,000 troops being sent over there are going to "fix" anything? It was broke a long time before we got there, and news flash, we aren't sending our troops over there to rebuild infrastructure, if anything we will be doing a whole lot more "breaking". The Afghans don't want us or the Taliban there, there is no "winning" this war.

[cliffordu]

385. perhaps your information is wrong. Perhaps a little more study is in order...

OR not

:shrug:

[TomClash]

386. I have but one question

You use the pronoun "we" a lot in your post. Who is "we"?

From where I sit I don't see "we" doing anything. I see soldiers dead and maimed, children and grandchildren paying for a war "we" still refuse to pay for, and "we" caring a lot more about Tiger's SUV and Twitter tidings.

"We" don't have any skin in the game; someone else is paying, someone else is dying, someone else is watching. There isn't any "we."

[cliffordu]

387. We pay as a country.

We as a country are as only good as our word. Only as good as our follow through.

You cannot distance yourself from that WE no matter how strenuously you object.

I know we are all supposed to be individual beautiful snowflakes, but really, most of the time we are just happy campers slave to our own self interests....and in this country, convenience fit for royalty.

So distance yourself from this we that is the US, if that makes you feel better, but, finally, you are part of the we, like it or not.

And I do not advocate thirty thousand combat troops, which is apparently what many here think this troop increase means.

three combat brigades are going, and those will replace troops who are due to rotate out. The rest are trainers and construction staff and ancillary staff.

What I advocate is summed by post #382

[TomClash]

389. No we don't

There is no shared sacrifice. It is a bullshit notion.

I know two people going. Neither is "ancillary staff" - both are medical, they will both be in country and in battle.

You don't add 30,000 soldiers by rotating out.

You can't cut it any other way - the President is sending a whole new group off to suffer and die. Most of the DU cheerleaders have no idea what that means.

[cliffordu]

391. I am sorry if your friends do not want to go. Don't look at the figures.

But please don't read what I actually wrote, just jerk the knee and be upset.

[TomClash]

400. I read what you wrote

I don't agree with it.

FWIW, I don't think you do either.

[cliffordu]

409. OOps-

I meant to write:

I'm sorry your friends have to go if they don't want to.

I wonder how many soldiers would volunteer if that was the only way you would be ordered to go there.

I think someone on one side of this argument would be surprised...

[TomClash]

413. They're doing tours 4 and 5

They go so the intelligentsia can stay home to ponder "policy." I wonder how many soldiers in country would go home if you could simply pack up and leave. I know I wouldn't be the one surprised at that number.

[cliffordu]

415. duplicated screed....

Fuck Rummy and Cheney and Bush and their "leaner and meaner" bullshit.

[cliffordu]

416. How many tours under Obama?

Fuck Rummy and Cheney and Bush and their "leaner and meaner" bullshit.

[Lindsey]

397. I absolutely agree, cliffordu. Obama CAMPAIGNED on this..

He wanted out of Iraq (which he is currently withdrawing troops) but he's always said Afghan is a different story. He's doing what he felt he has to do even knowing the criticism. If we just pulled out, where would we be? 9/11's would start happening all over the place and THEN what would people be saying. The president is very smart. He gathered all of the information from the people who are experts at this and came to his conclusion.

[cliffordu]

399. Yep.

[TheCML]

401. Where have we heard this before?

"If we just pulled out, where would we be? 9/11's would start happening all over the place and THEN what would people be saying."

Oh thats right, every Republican ever during the last 8 years of Bush. Your statement given your avatar is ironic.

[RaleighNCDUer]

550. Not true. Actually, every Republican ever during the last 8 years of Bush

has been adamantly avoiding talking about Afghanistan at all. The moment that Bush declared the whereabouts of bin Laden to be irrelevant, there was only one war - Iraq.

It has been the Democrats who decried the abandonment of Afghanistan who have been warning about the resurgence of the Taliban and the continuing threat from Al Queda.

[TheCML]

567. Thats not what I meant

I was referring to that specific justification for war. "if we don't fight them there, they will kill us here". Saying if we pull out 9/11s will start happening everywhere is a page right out of the Republican play book.

[NYC_SKP]

392. Oh look, this thread didn't sink, then die, then bloat and rot and float away....

YAY!

:hi:

:kick:

[cliffordu]

396. I'm bloated, does that help??

:rofl:

:hi:


Trick is to answer nearly everyone who responds - particularly the ignoramuses.......Heh.

[NYC_SKP]

417. It would seem the Zombie Quotient fell significantly over night....

I'm crack-fucking-up that they locked Nance's OP, but left a shit-storm of crybaby whiney posts open.

Near Beers Cheers!

:toast:

[cliffordu]

418. Boo ya!!!!

They locked Nance's piece???

Fuck me I thought it was brilliant.

Root Beer toasts for the Zombies all around!!!!

[winyanstaz]

394. "Fixing" the disaster we caused is why we have stayed in Iraq too....

I am sure the thousands more dead and tortured and raped Iraqies LOVED our staying to "FIX" things.
Let's say china bombed and raped and murdered and tortured us for eight years...
Would we want them to stay and "FIX" things or get the hell out?
I say we have "FIXED" the middle east long enough.
Bring our troops home NOW!.

[cliffordu]

398. Obama is responsible for NONE of the crimes and missteps you list.

Are you confusing him with Bush, oh, and by the way - he's reducing the number of troops in Iraq as we speak........

Some will go to Afghanistan, most will not.

[winyanstaz]

405. If Obama escolates this war..he is RESPONSIBLE.

And shifting our sons and daughtors out of one illegal war and into another is bullshit too.
End the wars.
Bring the troops home. NOW!

[JuniperLea]

402. Well done, cliffordu!

Obama gained nothing from this political suicide... he must truly believe he can turn this thing around. I'm pulling for him.

[cliffordu]

404. He ain't afraid of the political fallout, that's for sure.

I'm going to be haranguing all the negatrons if this works. It might.

[JuniperLea]

406. It very well might...

I'm trying to stay positive. It's hard because I have thought it was far too late for a very long time now. If he pulls this off, it's nothing short of a miracle. We could sure use one.

[TheKentuckian]

408. Taking another shit on the Afghans and getting far away

is probably bad long term but if trying to help make up for the trouble is going to result in half the country rising up to kill us for then all we can really do is cut bait and try to bribe them or something.

You can't help the host clean up when they are trying to throw you out.

Sometimes you can't unscrew the pooch. The gotta try is for life and death struggles not dicey onesided moral decisions. We can't make them let us clean up the mess. If they would or I really believed the powers that be types could be bothered then I might agree but the words "pissing up a rope" keep coming to mind.

[cliffordu]

412. IF half the country rises up, I'll be advocating getting the fuck out right now,

But I don't see it - mostly roadside bombs and hit and run attacks that can be carried out by very few people.

I get the feeling that most folks near the cities will be fine with the construction efforts and the training,


Maybe (and probably not in the tribal areas near Pakistan - where this will be won or lost BY THE AFHGANIS AND THE PAKISTANIS, not us and not nato.

We will not win this militarily, But we can fix what we can before we bail, though....

Or we can say "Great Job, Brownie" and hand out a couple of medals and claim we did a great job, while the Taliban behead everyone who supported the effort.

[Amonester]

503. When we'll (finally) pull out in 18 months or so....

the Taliban will not behead everyone who supported the effort?

How? (I wish they wouldn't behead anyone, but I live in this sad reality thingy.)

'Care.

[cliffordu]

529. I think that's why all the trainers are going along...to end their influence,

or at least limit the fuckers to the tribal areas...

[Jefferson23]

421. I don't agree with Obama's decision on this, but I appreciate your OP none the less.

We all want our soldiers home and this insanity of endless needless war to end.

[cliffordu]

424. I want them home, too....More than anyone who thinks I support war in any way

thinks I do...

[Naked_Ape]

422. Damn us Democrats...

We could just walk away from this Afghan nightmare. We could 'kick the can down the road.' We could do any number of things to just weasel out of this mess and blame it on Bush... but we won't. We will take the responsibility upon ourselves. We will beat ourselves up over the horrors of the war we are now running. We will cry ourselves to sleep, blame Obama for doing... the only thing he can do. The right thing.

We don't have to like it but we should take some pride in being the responsible ones. There is no fixing that place and we will certainly take the blame for the inevitable fallout of ongoing death and destruction. Nevertheless, we aren't walking away. We will find a way to pay for war amid the dozens of other neglected priorities that have been waiting for us to return to government. Thankfully it is Democrats that have the opportunity and obligation to do the heavy lifting of setting things as right as they can be made to be. Nobody else is willing to try.

But that means putting treasured and long neglected projects back on the "Some other day..." list, because we know we cant do everything at once, Damn us.

[emsimon33]

423. Then let's get rid of the mercenaries, get back the draft

and stop privatizing the military. If we are committed to this, then we need to be committed as a country--there is no such thing as a little bit pregnant but that's how we have approached both Iraq and Afghanistan.

[cliffordu]

425. I don't disagree entirely.

The draft kills wars faster than anything.

[emsimon33]

428. No, it makes us think twice and going to or continuing a war

should take a lot of deliberation. No one has ever won in Afghanistan. The war the the USSR waged there ended their empire and it will end ours, probably for the good of the rest of the world but not for us.

All of Obama's pretty words only mean that we will end our empire sooner rather than later. In 2012 oil will no longer be bought and sold in US dollars and by then the dollar will be worthless. Money spent to build a real economy and to ignite innovation might make the transition smoother for us. Throwing more money down the rat hole of military intervention and military contractors who rape and lie and steal will not build our economy for the 21st century.

And this war will doom Obama to one term and give the Republicans a free ride to the White House and control of the Senate and Congress.

Way to go, Obama!

[NYC_SKP]

431. Dayum! You're just behind Pit Bulls and Pot for greatest number of replies...

Better lock this thread!

:kick:

[cliffordu]

438. Aw, kiss my

nevermind....

Hey, SKP- howarya??

[NYC_SKP]

443. chillin...

Stressin' a little with the old man coming home from long term care, still has dementia, can't be there all the time and my old mom can't save him from himself.

I got helpers, but may need to go fulltime with helpers.

He's an old Navy vet, 26 years, WW2, Korea, Viet Nam.

Parents...precious.

Hey! Did you ever pedal down through California? I think you said you might come down in October.

:shrug:

[cliffordu]

454. Nope - Sorry about that but My mother in law turned for the worse and then

passed away - and now it's too late for this year to ride the coast -

In the spring I'll try to get out once the dust settles around here - the good news in all this is that we are now out of abject poverty.....and actually have a house now......

due to the thrift and largesse of my mother in law who hated me with a passion that can only be compared with some of the fuckers around here.

She called me Satan.......ah well.....

Other than that it's all good - going to get a real mountain bike tomorrow and rip the woods around here...Big fun for those of us who refuse to grow up...


Sorry about your pops. Tell him I salute him and his service, and I hope you two get all the quality time the heavens can give you.

Life is too short. Completely unacceptable.

[thegoodfight]

433. This is mostly hypothetical

and you do NOT play hypotheticals with innocent lives. To do so, just proves to me, I don't care whether you disgaree with the war, the fact that you're still for it and THINK, think, do not KNOW, that this will improve conditions in this poor country is all I need to know. Shove the flag up your ass because I KNOW that an escalation means more deaths, more corruption and more hate from the Afghan people.

[cliffordu]

439. Aw, wassa matta.....

:hurts:

Nice try, welcome to DU!!!!

[NYC_SKP]

444. Oh dear. I don't think "shove the flag up your ass" is a nice thing to say to a Veteran.

Does your mom know you're on the computer?

:spank:

[cliffordu]

456. I thought that was kind of precious, too....

:rofl:

[meisje]

434. Go glitz or go home!!

lol

[mistertrickster]

437. I agree with everything you wrote except for one thing: "as a country, we're broke."

We're not broke. The massive wealth accumulating at the top needs to be tapped -- those who benefit most need to pay more.

Maybe that's the real war that needs to be fought: the class war. BTW, good post, K'd and R'd!

[cliffordu]

440. Thanks, and you're right about the rich.

Tax the fuck out of them. Most got rich on the backs of people like the Afghanis, so......

[stray cat]

445. An intelligent post on DU lately is rare - thanks for a refreshing perspective and good insight

[cliffordu]

457. Thanks!.

I don't often do anything around here but snark the idjits, and it's encouraging to know people agree with me in some serious matters.

[quickesst]

447. Thanks...

..for getting it, and so eloquently too.
quickesst

[cliffordu]

458. Thanks. Much appreciated

[Tumbulu]

451. well said, I agree (nt)

[cliffordu]

460. Thank you..

[caseymoz]

452. You've lost your mind. We try to set this right? And if it gets more wrong . . .

the more we try, are we required more to set it right? This is a slave mentality. The most common way to put people in slavery is to put them in a debt they can't pay. This has nothing to do with honor. Nothing.

Unlike Iraq, Afghanistan, is a country that was totally screwed up long before we touched it. I mean, even before the Soviets invaded, and then there was long years of vicious civil war, how can we be held responsible to make that right? Meanwhile, the Afghans see their problem as us being there. Without us, they'd have to at least take responsibility for their other problems, after they stop fighting each other, one would hope. Too bad we failed to help, but we don't owe country anything. And all we can deliver is more woe.

And don't play the "impossible dream" bullshit, that we know how unlikely it is but we have to try because if we don't, all those who died would have died in vain, or because it's a greater good. You are clouding this issue with operatic emotions and playing romance music. This is the only good way to look at it: all that is going to happen if we keep troops there is that more will die. Then we'll have to stay longer so that those additional heroes didn't die in vain.

So, we'll just feel we owe more to more families and more to Afghanistan if we stay there. Again, the best way to put yourself into slavery is to sink yourself into a debt you can't pay.

We have been there for eight years fixing it. What could possibly go right if we give it another three years? And if we stay there, the neocons are still able to exploit it.

[cliffordu]

462. The single error in your entire thoughtful reply is that we have NOT been

there for 8 years fixing anything. We've been there for 8 years blowing shit up and generally not paying attention.

Much of the material that was SUPPOSED to go to Afghanistan was diverted into Iraq on the down low -

My posit is that 8 years of blowing up their 9th century infrastructure deserves TWO of trying to make it right.


This ain't a Bushy escalation, Actual training and repair that will occur.

[caseymoz]

492. We are not going to be there three more years fixing anything.

Obama has not changed the Pentagon in one year, nor the industry that supports it. I am sorry to say, if we are there at all at this time it's because somebody has money to make on it. I don't think there's a Peace Corps side to the Pentagon, it's efforts to reconstruct nations are . . . mixed, to put it generously. If Obama is increasing troops, it is because the military brass is in charge of the information he gets.

Having the same military there for another three years is going to result in largely the same thing that happened in the first 8-- especially now that Afghanis are shooting at us more.

[captn_nomad]

453. I have to agree cliffordu

This is my first post here, but I just wanted to chime in agreement with cliffordu.

This is not simply a matter of whether the war is right or wrong, the current administration is tasked with the responsibility of repairing the world view of the United States for generations to come. The Bush administration spent eight years effectively transforming our International image into an enormous-ego-fed-consumer-driven-manifest-destiny-machine, out to run over any culture that we don't like. Whether we like to admit it or not, the actions performed by the United States government during those eight years will not be remembered in history as the action of George W. Bush, but as the actions of America. Obama is doing his best to try to rewrite the American play book. Not just because it is the right thing to do, but also because it could effectively alter the historical perception of the United States both at home and abroad for generations to come.

[cliffordu]

463. Yep - exactly -

I believe that the repair of our reputation and security abroad is directly linked to how Obama handles Afghanistan.

I'm just fucking amazed that so many people here don't get that.

[SeattleGirl]

464. What you said!

:applause:

[cliffordu]

465. Thanks!!

[Agony]

466. So...How many more people have to die before your guilt is assuaged?

[cliffordu]

468. How many have to die before you'd feel any guilt at all?

I mean the Afghani's slaughtered by the Taliban, if we leave tonight.

I find it very interesting how many 'democrats' don't give any kind of shit whatsoever about the afghans.

It's like nimbys and the homeless.

:shrug:

[Agony]

471. your faulty assumption that I feel no guilt and your 1-bit color world view are problematic

in my opinion.

[cliffordu]

475. Hmm. I find your response as stunted and intellectually flaccid as your

original screed.

I overestimated you, sorry.

[pmorlan1]

505. What are you talking about?

Did you listen to what Obama actually said in his speech? He isn't staying in Afghanistan to help the Afghans. He's staying there according to him to protect OUR interests, not the Afghans interests.

But there was almost none of that in last night's speech. As Ben Smith correctly notes, Obama did not even mention -- let alone hype -- the issue of women's rights in Afghanistan. There were no grandiose claims that the justness of the war derives from our desire to defeat evil, tyrannical extremists and replace them with more humane and democratic leaders. To the contrary, he was commendably blunt that our true goal is not to improve the lives of Afghan citizens but rather: "Our overarching goal remains the same: to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaeda." There were no promises to guarantee freedom and human rights to the Afghan people. To the contrary, he explicitly rejected a mission of broad nation-building "because it sets goals that are beyond what can be achieved at a reasonable cost and what we need to achieve to secure our interests"; he said he "refuse to set goals that go beyond our responsibility, our means, or our interests"; and even vowed to incorporate the convertible factions of the Taliban into the government.


Not only did he refrain from those manipulative appeals, he made explicitly clear that we are in Afghanistan to serve our own interests (as he perceives them), not to build a better nation for Afghans. Nation-building, he said, goes "beyond ... what we need to achieve to secure our interests" and "go beyond our responsibility." We're there to serve our interests and do nothing else. That should throw cold water on all on the preening fantasies of all but the blindest and most naive "liberal war supporters" that we're there to help the Afghan people.
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/12/02/obama/index.html

[cliffordu]

524. I know what he said and what the pundits wrote....

What kind of troops has he ordered up?

Three combat brigades and the rest are training/support/construction people.

Thirty thousand COMBAT troops would fit what that guy wrote, but the boots on the ground tell a different story.

In the scheme of things, 30,000 combat troops wouldn't mean shit. The country is too big

15 or twenty thousand trainers, support people and construction people will.

The combat troops will protect the other workers until the training and construction is as far along as it can be.

That's the tactical reality in what he is doing.

But that's alright - he has doomed us all so we might as well not even try.

[NYC_SKP]

469. (giddy with anticipation of the response in store for this bit of deep thought) nt

[cliffordu]

472. Well......

BWAHAH AHA HA HAHAHAHAHHAHA AHAH A HAH A

:rofl:

That one is almost a complete ass, but not quite.....

[NYC_SKP]

476. I hate when people want to visit their agony upon others.

It talked back to you.

Go on now....

:popcorn:

[sendero]

473. Another load of revisionist bullshit..

... Afghanistan was FUCKED before we went there and it will be FUCKED within months of our departure. There wasn't a time when it wasn't FUCKED because that's the kind of place it is. And will always be.

Politically, Obama took the easy course as always, we'll give the old college try to try to fix a society that is built on corruption from the ground up, we'll let a few thousand of our soldiers die, many more thousands of their people will die and they will HATE US for that and in the end it will still be up to the Afghani people to decide their fate.

What a load of bullshit trying to spin some honor in our actions. More generals full of hubris willing to gamble away the lives of thousand of grunts in the vain hope of some kind of victory. Bullshit.

[cliffordu]

474. Well......

Not really willing to repair the stuff WE fucked up because it was already mostly fucked up???

I guess that's OK.

Prolly. Maybe.

[Name removed]

477. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cliffordu]

479. DING DING DING

Stupidest fucking post of the day.

Read "Charlie Wilson's War..." Pay attention to what happened after the Russkies left......like the fact that funding for the mujahadeen was cut off and the fucking country went south....

We did lay the groundwork for the taliban, and refusal to see that is just willful ignorance, plain and simple.

[sendero]

480. DING DING DING..

... biggest moron on DU, but everyone knew that.

[cliffordu]

481. Bwaahaha haha haha ha

Out of 'facts'??

[sendero]

482. As if anything..

.... you say is a "fact".

I'll be here in 3 years 4 years 5 years when all of these adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan have FAILED and morons like you are left to try to defend your idiotic position.

[cliffordu]

484. At that point, you may have my most sincere apology.

But I don't think that will be the case.

Best to you and yours. Buy insurance. Get the sure deal. Invest frugally.

[liberation]

494. You are citing "Charlie Wilson's War" as an authoritative source on the Afghani conflict?

What is next, referring us to Bush's memories as authoritative opinions and facts when discussing the Iraq war?

Why don't you invest your time in a real history book of the area. You can start all the way back to Alexander the Great times... and read upon how many foreign powers have managed to invade and hold ground for a significant period of time in that hell hole.

The Afghanis don't want us there, NATO wants to get the hell out of there ASAP, and I am sure that most Americans would like our troops to be safe and sound... rather than having to repair a place that has been f*cked from way back and which its national sport is playing polo with a live baby goat.


The thing is, that nobody wants to come to terms with the fact that this is one of the few things that is relatively politically safe to keep the economy from collapsing. Military expenditure is going to be once again the approach used to soften a recession. Because, it turns out that our society seems to have no problem (from a political standpoint) in wasting copious amounts of money we don't have in bombing back a country to the stone age (and if they are already there, like Afghanistan, to keep them there). The same money that could be used to foment and create a comprehensive and meaningful (read it benefits most Americans) health care reform.

Obama knows that this just cost him the liberal base, but he doesn't care. Have you seen take a similar stance in support of actual real health care reform, which would put him in a collision course with the conservative contingent? No, of course you won't see him do any of that.

I think after last night, we finally see where Mr. Obama stands. And no amount of furious pompom swirling is going to change the overwhelmingly hypocrisy of those who would have screamed bloody murder had Bush done anything similar, while they try their damnest now to find all sorts of justifications (however far fetched may be) to this. Because in the end, I realize that it is always party before country.... just like it was for the bush bots during those 8 long years.


I am just not interested in seeing this movie again. We're acting more and more like an Empire, and Afghanistan is where empires go to die. And some of you are all to happy to cheer along the ride down the drain... god help us.

[Bluesbreaker]

535. If you really want to understand what we've gotten into . . .

Read the Pulitzer Prize winning recent history of recent Afghanistan -- Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001, by Steven Coll.

[NYC_SKP]

485. Dude, have you even BEEN to a Pottery Barn???

At least some of our membership has served our country and, for the most part, their contributions to this board have a value added that all the epithets in the world can't dent.

Dude.

Chill.

[cliffordu]

486. There is a picture of my wife at the local pottery barn.

I put the picture up and told the people there to throw her out. No more Pottery Barn crapola.

[NYC_SKP]

487. I can't go there anymore, not since "the Incident"...

But that's another story... :P

[cliffordu]

491. Sorry about that....Didn't that have something to do with a cocktail waitress

and a napkin ring????? I heard about it on the local news...

Notice that the zombies are back???

It has to be a medication timing thing. Fock me.

[NYC_SKP]

513. Way to advertise it, sport.

:rofl:

Zombies, heh, I've got my shit ready for a short trip to San Diego, so I'll play whack a troll...

[cliffordu]

532. lol.....

target rich environment, indeed....

[Cha]

498. lol.

[Cha]

488. And, I think Pres Obama does too.

"I hate this war. I hate these fucking wars with the same fury I that hated the war in VietNam.

I know what the price is for these kinds of adventures. But I know the prices others will pay if we just walk away, too."

[cliffordu]

493. I think so, too....

[pmorlan1]

490. Gingrich Supports Obama on this too

Looks like you and Newt Gingrich are both supporting Obama on the war.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4168748

[cliffordu]

497. Um.....I don't base my attitudes or beliefs on what anyone else thinks or believes

And that goes doubly for the infants who think if I can be painted with that brush I'll feel bad.

Fuck newt, and for that matter, you too.

Jesus.

[Cha]

501. ..

Yeah, fuck newt.

[Kansas Wyatt]

495. I never expected any Democratic President COULD just walk away.

People, keep in mind... Bush & Cheney are the ones who launched all of this mess as a means to get to Iraq. Whether you like it or not, we have fucked a lot up over there and pissed a lot more people off. I'm not saying escalating it and blowing more money on it is the way out, because there is NO easy way out of the curse that Bush placed on the United States. Just like everything else, Bush & Republicans, Inc. made sure to fuck everything up for a long time, just to prevent anything good from ever turning out for the American People.

And whether you like to admit it or not, the Middle East still plays a big part in our fragile economy. Remember gasoline at $4 a gallon? Pull out of the Middle East, and you will see it rapidly pass that and keep rising, and who would that hurt the most? Don't get pissed at me for saying it... I'm not the one who set all this shit in motion years ago.

And when you put all this crap with those so called 'new technologies' being outsourced to the very country that we are borrowing money from to pay for this damn mess, I am not very 'hopeful' that anything will ever 'change.'

Now, go ahead Pom Pom Squad, let me have it for not being 'hopeful' enough for 'change.'

[cliffordu]

500. Yep.

[TankLV]

507. The WARMONGERS on this thread just DISGUST me...

it's beyond sad...

[NYC_SKP]

511. You forgot that "sarcasm" smiley thingy, Tankster. n/t

[cliffordu]

517. Haven't seen one warmonger yet.

Cleaning up the fucking mess is the right thing to do.

[winyanstaz]

598. Well now..that should be real easy wont it?

Especially since the number of contractors now in Afganistan far out number the troops we have there already. :)
Oh yes..we are all posed there for some major work to be done.
After all...we have more bases to build and a pipeline to lay.
Why I bet by the time we are done "fixing" Afganistan it will look just as good as all the "fixing" we have done to Iraq's infrastructure.

[Martin Eden]

508. Excellent post, but you need to elaborate on one major point

If the effort is bound to fail, why sacrifice additional blood and treasure to merely delay the inevitable? The end result will be the same in Afghanistan, but more people will have died and our country will be deeper in debt.

I understand and agree in principle with everything you said about honoring our commitments and fixing what we fucked up, but ultimately how do we honor that commitment if we undertake this effort believing in advance it will fail and we don't actually fix what we fucked up? That smells a lot more of covering our ass than a good faith honoring of commitments. But at least we can say we "tried" and maybe point to how many died (in vain).

Let me clarify something here:
I'm not saying that is what President Obama is doing. I'm questioning the logic in your post. President Obama may actually believe this escalation will achieve the goals he outlined. He is better informed, and at least as intelligent as you or I.

I share your skepticism about the chances for success in Afghanistan. Even if our forces can achieve what they set out to do on the ground, I have no confidence that the Afghan government can hold it together after we leave.

I understand the president's dilemma. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. It is IMHO a no-win situation militarily and politically. What would happen if Obama announced an immediate withdrawal, and before too long the Taliban was celebrating their victory in the streets of Kabul, burning American flags and boasting they defeated the Great Satan?

Sadly, that will very likely happen anyway -- but at least Obama will not have "cut and run." And if this fucked up war has not been winnable for several years (probably never was) it won't be the fault of Barack Obama. He was put in this position because the previous administration royally fucked us over and that was allowed to happen because of how fucked up our politics and many of our fellow citizens are -- and because the real power in this country pulled the strings like they have so many times before.

One of the big questions many of us has is, to what extent has Barack Obama been able to cut those strings?

[cliffordu]

518. The point I was trying to make with that is

That no matter what the short term risk, we HAVE to try. We have to. If we walk away right now, it will seal our reputation as an ally that cannot be trusted.

It very well COULD fail, but we have to try to make it right where the NEOCONS willfully failed.

And fuck the cynics who think believing we can make a difference is Kool-aid inebriation.

[Martin Eden]

509. Excellent post, but I have one major question:

If the effort is bound to fail, why sacrifice additional blood and treasure to merely delay the inevitable? The end result will be the same in Afghanistan, but more people will have died and our country will be deeper in debt.

I understand and agree in principle with everything you said about honoring our commitments and fixing what we fucked up, but ultimately how do we honor that commitment if we undertake this effort believing in advance it will fail and we don't actually fix what we fucked up? That smells a lot more of covering our ass than a good faith honoring of commitments. But at least we can say we "tried" and maybe point to how many died (in vain).

Let me clarify something here:
I'm not saying that is what President Obama is doing. I'm questioning the logic in your post. President Obama may actually believe this escalation will achieve the goals he outlined. He is better informed, and at least as intelligent as you or I.

I share your skepticism about the chances for success in Afghanistan. Even if our forces can achieve what they set out to do on the ground, I have no confidence that the Afghan government can hold it together after we leave.

I understand the president's dilemma. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. It is IMHO a no-win situation militarily and politically. What would happen if Obama announced an immediate withdrawal, and before too long the Taliban was celebrating their victory in the streets of Kabul, burning American flags and boasting they defeated the Great Satan?

Sadly, that will very likely happen anyway -- but at least Obama will not have "cut and run." And if this fucked up war has not been winnable for several years (probably never was) it won't be the fault of Barack Obama. He was put in this position because the previous administration royally fucked us over and that was allowed to happen because of how fucked up our politics and many of our fellow citizens are -- and because the real power in this country pulled the strings like they have so many times before.

One of the big questions many of us has is, to what extent has Barack Obama been able to cut those strings?

[grantcart]

510. An interesting side note to the speech

He signalled that American Civilian Aid would be channeled directly to the local agencies that are working effectively.


This could be a significant factor in eliminating corruption at the federal level.


Whether this 'fails' or succeeds actually will have little to do with the military side of the equation but a great deal more on the civilian side.

If there is an escalation on the civilian side then it has an excellent chance of suceeding, atleast in the areas that are not the most remote and tribal bound.


In any case we are now bringing in the first team for the first time.

[cliffordu]

519. Yep.

How's the road??

[Zhade]

512. You are so wrong -- and innocent people are dying for ignorance like yours.

NT!

[cliffordu]

520. No, they are not. And you should really do a little reading. Please.

[Captain Hilts]

515. Afghanistan was fucked up before we got there, but, yes, I think it's up to us to try to fix it. nt

[cliffordu]

521. Yep.

[rufus dog]

516. Nice job

I was very impressed by his speech even though I am in a small minority. It is a fucked up situation but I believe he is trying to do the right thing. I would like to add that I nor very few posting on this board have access to all of the intel but I expect the strategy is to contain the boarder from both sides and cut off supply lanes.

[cliffordu]

528. Thanks...

[boomerbust]

522. You are correct sir

And beautifully written.:patriot:

[cliffordu]

530. Thanks...

[SaveAmerica]

533. I volunteered for Obama's campaign, have someone in Iraq right now

and this someone (my husband) could very well end up in Afghanistan next. I just wanted to tell you thank you very much.

I have stressed over Obama's Afghanistan decision for weeks now. My husband and I both support Obama, we both know the truth about Iraq and how we got there. At the same time, our commitment to the military runs deep.

I don't know what part of a person compels them to stand up and give of themselves to protect their country, but I cherish those who do. I do know that when I chose candidates to volunteer for in 2008, I looked for people who had our servicemembers' commitment and the promise they give our country in mind. My husband and I both had just about enough of our guys in uniform being used at the whim of their Commander in Chief.

I agree with you, I applaud the deliberation that I've seen and I sincerely believe that President Obama has internalized each event of the past month that involved our military, each meeting he went into about what's going on in Afghanistan, and he has not taken this decision lightly.

I salute almost every word you wrote - I have more faith in this plan's success and I think that more years can be added to how many it's been that Afghanistan has been used for other countries' gain. She's been used for decades now.

If anyone has been listening to what's going on in Afghanistan the past few months they'd know that we have missions that are not being supported correctly. It takes a strong person to step up and take a challenge like this and work hard to correct it.

I've never been so disappointed in Keith Olbermann as I was last night when he said that Obama started the Afghanistan war again. I would love to tell him that "You, sir, are wrong. This is George W. Bush's war, started 8 years ago. President Obama is trying to repair the damage of the past, get in there, get it done and let us get on with our lives".

Everyone - this situation is not as easy as it looks. Don't you think I'd love to have them home right now? I bought some presents today and I wish I was hiding them in the closet to be opened with the family on Christmas day instead of mailing them to the desert in the morning.

You just can't fix a mess of this magnitude in 11 months.

Signed,

SaveAmerica, the person who is always trying to bring about peace when friends and family are fighting and who was against the Invasion of Iraq from Day 1 - my current situation is more painful than I can put in words.

[NYC_SKP]

536. SaveAmerica, I would love for your reply to become an Original Post.

I fear, however, that it would be met with a cacophony of dissenting voices, insults without substance.

I hope you'll save it to your DU Journal for others to find.

Either way, I'm glad I found it and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

And I thank your husband for his service to our country.

NYC_SKP

:patriot:

[cliffordu]

538. I agree completely.

great idea, NYC_SKP

[SaveAmerica]

576. Thanks for your words, I wrote to bring real life perspective to Cliffordu's post

Thanks, you guys, for your thoughts and wishes.

Sometimes you have to have been there and done that or are currently living it to really understand it. If you're lucky, you'll help someone else understand along the way.

[cliffordu]

537. Thank you for your support, I hope your husband - and all our people -

come home healthy and soon.

Tell him I salute his service.

And I salute your sacrifice.

[kjackson227]

547. Great post, and although I totally dislike this war, I stand behind this president in his effort ...

to try to right this mess. He's holding true to his campaign promise of "we must be careful getting out", and leaving in 2011.

[cliffordu]

553. Thanks....!!

[NYC_SKP]

555. So, I'm reading and posting from an airport...

...and your shit STILL makes sense.

:applause:

SMF to SAN, overnight, southwest.

I wonder if you're familiar the character "Kenny Tarmac", "We Just Landed!"...

A recurring guest on radio's "Bob and Tom Show".

later dude...

:P

[cliffordu]

558. Have a good one -

Who knew this idiotic post would have these legs????

[NYC_SKP]

568. Somebody keeps poking at it...

Die, hell, this thread can't even sleep!

So, WTF San Diego? They're playing "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" outside... on Steel Drums.

:wtf:

[cliffordu]

569. Go north, young man, to Venice Beach....

Bwahaha aha ha aha hahah

[NYC_SKP]

570. I left my roller blades and clove cigs and colored chalk for sidewalk art at home...

...dammit!

Actually I have to work, then fly back tomorrow afternoon, and get ready to do the same for a little gig next week in Pasadena.

Hmmmm, what shall I bring?

[cliffordu]

572. Everclear.

And chocolate and condoms.

[NYC_SKP]

573. And crack and an anorexic hooker.

Torn stockings, hair fallin' out.

Might as well make a party of it.

:party:

[cliffordu]

575. Don't forget a towell!!!!

[NYC_SKP]

577. OK, since this thread has taken a hard left turn, let me tell you what I did on my last trip...

So I was on a job in Palm Springs... "the Company" was putting us up at a posh fancy-boy golf resort place called the LaQuinta Spa and Resort. (like I care, I like Homewood Suites)

Anyway, everyone gets a "casita", some face the pool, some have their own private yard.

The "Chief" had a private yard with pool and spa, big ass pool, too.

I changed from a pool side to a private yard. These have a tall wall and you use your cardkey to get into the yard.

You need your cardkey AGAIN to get into your casita.

My private yard:



So, I was there for a week, the weather was great, and sometimes NYC_SKP is known to get up in the morning, au natural, and go outside for a smoke.

It was 4:30 am when I went out for a smoke, nekkid, and after putting my butt out in that ashtray on that table in the pic (you can see a bic lighter), I realized I'd shut the door on myself-- locked my nekkid ass out of my own fuckin' casita.

No robe, no cardkey, no cellphone, no laptop, no keys to my car... locked out bare ass naked.

It made for interesting conversation later at breakfast.

:P

[cliffordu]

579. You put your butt in an ashtray????

EWWWWWWWW

Glad I stopped smoking....

:rofl:


So: Finish the story: How did you get back in????

[NYC_SKP]

581. lol!

So, I was pretty upset. The main office is hundreds of yards away, there's not going to be any staff wandering around, I'd seen a security dude on a bike on a different night--figured I'd have to post by the door to the outside world and hope he'd pedal by..

But I had left my laptop case out on a chair, and in that case is a swiss army knife I made (because they don't make a model with wood saw, pliers, phillips, and the standard tools, so I took several apart and made what I wanted. I even went to Victorinox stores IN FUCKING GENEVA and they didn't have exactly that--you have to either get a corkscrew in lieu of a phillips, or have a fish scaler that I don't want or a metal file that I don't want, so I made my own goddam swiss army knife).

So, first I thought AH HA! I can pull the hinge pins on the doors that open out. No such luck, they're commercial, pins don't slide out.

Then I went to check each window, casement windows that swing out by turning a crank inside, and YAY, one was not locked.

But I could only get that puppy open about an inch, so I rocked it in and out and it opened slowly enough to get my wrist in, but no further.

So I was able finally to reach the knob (usually it's a crank, but this was a knob) and it seemed difficult to turn.

I thought maybe I have to pull it up to release it to turn, but when I did pull on it it popped off and went to the floor.

So I was left with the stubby post. No way to turn that.

This is where the pliers on my swiss army knife that I assembled myself saved the day. Little by little I turned that motherfucker and got the window open enough to fit my fat ass in, leaving nothing but footie prints on the wall outside, and inside, but didn't need to break anything.

And, unbelievably, I was able to go back to sleep for a little bit.

When I got up a bit later, I placed my second card key in the fork of a tree in the yard there.

It's probably still there.

:P

[cliffordu]

582. Not bad.....

Were you red-cheeked???

:rofl:

[NYC_SKP]

583. No, red-cheeked is what happened at Avila Beach when I floated all day on an inner tube in the ocean

...before ANYONE ever heard of the term "SPF Factor".

Good Times.

:P

[cliffordu]

585. I did that in the Virgin Islands......

Yep, great times.....

Fock me. we've taken this OP wAAAAY of track. More power to us, I was getting tired of defending myself.

Although the name calling was lots of fun..

[janx]

587. This is one of the funniest sub-threads I've ever read on DU!

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

589. Well.......

"thankyouverymuch......."

(In my bestest elvis voice, naturally...)

[janx]

590. By the way, I agree with you.

But this conversation you just had with NYC_ SKP just cracked me up!

[cliffordu]

592. Thanks!!!

It's all his fault, though, he ALWAYS drags my fine and thoughtful posts into a conversation about his butt, sooner or later.....

[NYC_SKP]

593. You know, that never occured to me!

I think you're right!

:rofl:

[cliffordu]

595. My wife just said I have to disinvite you....

:rofl:

[NYC_SKP]

597. I could stay in the old Airstream.... stay out of the new place... bring an old sleeping bag.

Where I can wander around nekkid and stuff.

Congratulations on that house, by the way!

[cliffordu]

603. Thanks, man....

My brother in law lives in the airstream now - you two will hit it off great, though, as long as you like to discuss arcane engineering ideas at three in the morning. He's a little manic.

[NYC_SKP]

604. Ask him if this number is significant: ~1.6180339

Or if he can solve this equation for X:

1+X = 1/X

If he can answer either, he and I will hit it off1

:P

Gotta run, flight at 2:00 PM back home...

[cliffordu]

605. Later

[NYC_SKP]

586. WARMONGER!!!

There. How's that?

Take care, cliffordu!

:patriot:

[cliffordu]

588. You too, my good friend-

grantcart is threatening to come up to Washington and hang for a couple hours, or, days if I can get him arrested.....

You should figure out a way to make a trip up here at the same time one of your "bid'ness trips"

I can show you brutes Fort Worden, the county jail, maybe an outpatient clinic and the drunk tank.....Good times, indeed.

[NYC_SKP]

591. cool, lemme know...

...I've got some miles I can burn on alaska air...

:toast:

[earth mom]

594. Why isn't the U.S. at war with Saudi Arabia? The so called hijackers were mostly Saudis.

Continued bombing the hell out of innocent people does NOT set anything "right".

Which is why your argument doesn't make a damn lick of sense. :thumbsdown:

FYI-It's NOT the U.S. job to police or control or fix the world.

Let's fix this country first because it's gone to hell in a handbasket at lightning speed.

[cliffordu]

606. This is no longer about 9/11 even though everyone keeps referring to it.

It's about cleaning up a fucking mess WE HELPED CREATE..


And if you think my argument doesn't have a lick of sense, you have my condolences.

[FarLeftFist]

596. ***GREATEST THREAD EVER***

[cliffordu]

607. Don't be hatin'....

:rofl:

[NYC_SKP]

608. I will vote for him again.

I'd like to see how he does with a term that doesn't follow the worst presidential term ever.