Any speech therapists here? I think Cho had a severe speech impediment from birth.

[AZBlue]

Reports are that his family actually thought he might be mute because even as a child he spoke so little. According to those who saw the video tape, he was so hard to understand NBC used captions at some points. Classmates and teachers said in interviews that they rarely got him to speak and then couldn't understand him when he did speak.

If he did have a genuine, diagnosable speech problem, what could that have done to his mental state if he was also suffering from illness? Many with speech problems are horribly tormented and teased, true?

Seems to me, in addition to mental illness, this tragedy has brought another area in which we fail as a society: the diagnosis and treatment of disabilities (ADD, dyslexia, speech and hearing problems, etc) through school and doctor treatments. And, until we have universal health care for everyone, schools will have to be the first line of defense in this area - how could this have slipped by all his teachers, all these years? Or, are there no resources for teachers who might have noticed it?

What the hell is going on in this country?? We're a "civilized" and "developed" country, yet the poverty, under-education, and lack of care for minor and major issues is appalling!

[burrowowl]

1. I too thought that was something wrong with

his speech and ability to transmit his emotion or feeling, his words were horrible but his speech and face did not reflect what he was saying.

[AZBlue]

2. And it's even more heartbreaking that he was an English major.

As one of his teachers said, although his writing style was not the greatest, his one way of communictaion was through writing.

Every new thing I find out about this continues to break my heart even more.

[Lisa]

30. I was thinking that too, AZBlue ...

I have marked a lot of student work, over the years (not in English but various other topics in the humanities and cultural studies). I forced myself to look at Cho's writings this week, and along with some of the traps I've seen the younger less-experienced students falling into (like overly-dramatic declarations, and excessive violence that doesn't help develop the plot or characters), I had the impression that he was really struggling with trying to understand and communicate his ideas. Even at the very end, when he sent all those pictures to the news network -- a handful, or better yet, a single photo, would have gotten his "message" across much more effectively than dozens and dozens of them. It was as if he just didn't, or couldn't, understand the concept of "enough", and when to stop ... and unfortunately, that seems to have been a major problem in his life.

My guess is that he wasn't the only student in that class who had written something about violence -- family conflict, or a crime -- only the others knew when to draw the line.

[Fresh_Start]

3. autism and milder asperger syndrome both would have the

same effect. And the inability to relate to others or act inappropriately to social signals is very much part of that package.

[CoffeeCat]

5. There's still much to learn...

...about Cho's background, but so far--many things have come to light.

It sounds like he may have had autism. His writings reflected a preoccupation
with being sexually victimized and abused as a child. I just saw one of
his relatives call him "an idiot" on national television.

It sounds like a confluence of negative circumstances shaped this individual
into a very desperate, angry and overwhelmed person who broke off from reality
because he was in so much pain.

There is no excuse for violence and murder. However there were underlying
reasons which led to this violence.

I have compassion and grief for the Cho's victims, but I also have compassion
and grief for Cho. Does that make me a defective?

[Fresh_Start]

6. not to me.

having seen mental illness up close, I understand that the crazy action does not reflect the person as much as it reflects the disease.

He seems to have been stuck with an ignorant and hateful family.

[Kelly Rupert]

14. You should read up on the literature.

The theory that "it's just the disease acting out" is several decades out of date. Challenging behavior is always--always--goal-driven. Persons with autism are rational actors who are fully in control of their bodies and actions. When they engage in idiosyncratic or socially unacceptable behavior, they know what they're doing and they're doing it on purpose.

They might be trying to manipulate you into giving them something. They might be trying to get out of an unpleasant situation. They might just be doing it for internal stimulation (that is, because it's fun). But it isn't like the Autism has just grabbed control of them and started making them bang the desk and scream.

[Fresh_Start]

15. delete

oops

[phylny]

19. Hmm, I really don't agree with you at all. Challenging behavior is most

definitely "goal driven" in that it's reinforcing at some level to the person, but I know plenty of kids and adults with autism who are most certainly not "doing it on purpose."

[pitohui]

7. yeah and you know what you can do about that?

nothing

there are millions of high functioning autistics/asperger's syndrome folks around who are not inclined to chat you up, that doesn't mean we should all now be presumed to be murderers

HEY! i noticed the guy had black hair, that is SOOO easily and cheaply treated every month, for a few dollars a victim, we can dye everyone's hair blonde and this kind of thing would never happen

it's exactly the same logic which is to say it's a stupid idea on the face of it

asperger's syndrome is not a risk factor for mass murder, jeesus pleesus!

[Fresh_Start]

8. the question was whether he might have had a speech

impediment.

[pitohui]

13. because being a native korean speaker and diagnosed with autism wasn't enough for them?

as i've posted before, some of these posters should drop their happy ass in south korea and see how well they communicate

[Kelly Rupert]

10. Not...not really.

Autistics do not resent the world. They do not hate it for its failures. They have difficulty comprehending its more-complex social patterns; which was certainly not a failing of Cho's. He understood his classmates' motives, and he was acutely aware of his social failings. Neither are the case with individuals with Autism. It is difficult, after all, to hate the superficial motives of your peers when they're incomprehensible.

From his social issues, you could make a case he was an Aspie, I guess (or, more to the point, couldn't make the case that he wasn't), but it's not like this is clear autism.

But, unfortunately, the Aspie diagnosis doesn't fit his lack of speech. Speech/language problems, while a diagnostic necessity for Autism, is not at all part of Asperger syndrome. In fact, one of the biggest clues you have an Austism case and not an Asperger is that same cognitive inability. I mean, Aspies are often quiet, yeah. But Cho had actual speech problems, which isn't linked to Asperger syndrome.

This isn't to say he didn't have it. He might have. But if he did, it was extremely mild, and certainly not the cause of this action.

[Fresh_Start]

16. where in my post did I say anything about resenting the world?

are you responding to someone else?

[earth mom]

12. Having Autism or Aspergers does NOT make someone a Sociopath.

We are talking two completely different mental illnesses here. Cho was a Sociopath with an obvious speech impediment. Period.

IMO, spreading this kind of misinformation about the Autism community is utterly careless and does a great disservice to Autistics, the majority of whom are very loving and kind and wouldn't hurt a fly. In fact, they are usually the victim as they often don't know how to fight back nor do they understand the manipulative machinations of far too many people in our society. :(

[Fresh_Start]

17. where did I say it had anything to do with sociopaths?

I said it causes speech problems and problems with social interaction.
Nowhere did I say anything about sociopathic behavior.

[pitohui]

4. oh for the love of!

i was mute for many years as a child and i doubt i spoke w. any real facility until i was 30 but i didn't pick up a gun and start killing people

leave off with the "it's the quiet ones you have to watch" meaning "quiet people are ill and they should all be drugged to their eyeballs because of one quiet guy every decade or so"

sheesh!!!!!

[CoffeeCat]

9. I agree with you....

...that being mute does not make someone a killer.

I think the important variable here---is how his parents reacted to him being quiet and
unresponsive. It sounds like he was ostracized and treated as a defective.

I also agree that labeling people as "dangerous" or "ill" just because they are quiet--is
really dangerous and ignorant.

"Loners" get a bad rap, too. It seems like every notorious serial killer can be defined
as a "loner". At least, that's how all of the serial killers' neighbors describe them--
as the CNN tape rolls!

Loners are sometimes shy or just naturally introverted. That's not a bad thing, in itself.

Violent behavior like this is often the result of a confluence of factors.

[AZBlue]

24. Where on earth did I say "it's the quiet ones you have to watch:'??? Please show me.

Don't jump to conclusions or vent your unspoken anger at me. I'm trying to understand a little more - I have great compassion for Cho and what he went through and I think this may be another piece of the puzzle. If you'd bothered to read my post before attacking me, you would have seen I was trying to point out the need for more attention to possible disabilities early on before they manifest into a debilitating issue. A simple test would have said whether he had a speech impediment, was deaf, was mute, or was simply quiet.

Next time read a post before you respond.

[Blue-Jay]

11. That makes sense. Maybe he was just trying to buy GUM.

Christ. Sometimes the stupid hurts my head.

[AZBlue]

25. Please point out the stupid for me.

I'm obviously too dumb to understand. Thank you for enlightening me so.

[phylny]

18. I'm a speech therapist, and what I thought the minute I heard him

was that he was on the autism spectrum - PLEASE UNDERSTAND, not that people with autism are violent - NO NO NO. Just that he had a flat affect to his voice, and the lack of eye contact plus the social problems all made me think this. Remember, a district can diagnose and help a child only with consent from the parents.

NOW - I know that school district (Fairfax County) and it has excellent special education resources, including autism services, AND ESL resources, and if he had a diagnosis plus an IEP, there is little chance he would have been made fun of, etc., by classmates. Not in that district, and not in the district I worked at in the neighboring county. I've worked in elementary schools, middle, and high schools, and nowadays kids with a disability are accepted by their peers who KNOW there's a problem, and they're not bullied or tormented 99.9% of the time. Kids are so used to having children with disabilities surrounding them, from Kindergarten on, that it's really just normal to them. So, it's possible that his parents refused help from the district and here we are.

One last thing - long ago, one of my professors told us that jails are full of people with undiagnosed communication disorders, so you're not far off in thinking that it can lead to violence if not treated, but FCPS isn't a place where kids are routinely left without help.

[EFerrari]

20. It looks like there was more than one thing going on with Cho

which isn't unusual. We still don't know anything about the parents, do we?

[Fresh_Start]

21. haven't heard from the parents

but grandmother and grandfather have spoken can communicated things like -


he was stupid because he didn't speak
I'm glad he's dead, he ruined his mothers life


Definitely NOT a family capable of dealing with an ill or abnormal child.

[EFerrari]

22. Well, you notice the parents weren't living with the grandparents

and we haven't heard from the parents. There is a lot we don't know about this family.

At different times when my ex got out of hand, members of my family made pretty terrible statements because they loved me and maybe because they felt angry and helpless to make the situation better. But, they also worked hard to accept my ex and to support his efforts. I'd hate to have my family judged by one statement made during one of those episodes.

[Fresh_Start]

23. true enough thats at least one thing the child

didn't have to deal with.

[AZBlue]

27. As I posted in another thread, there's a cultural difference we have to understand.

Being from South Korea means there's social pressure not to shame or embarass your family - and if you do, often the family will to some degree distance themselves from you. We shouldn't jump to conclusions here.

More here:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=710028&mesg_id=710283

[AZBlue]

26. Exactly.

And that's all I was trying to say here - I thought that the speech problem might just be one piece of the puzzle. There are obviously several factors here and I think they were an unfortunate combination that might have even reinforced each other - like a speech problem might have with a person who's already withdrawn or feeling picked on.

And, you're right- we don't have much insight into his family and his childhood and that would certainly have played a role. And we may never understand that part of his life - I do respect his family's right to privacy given the horror they've gone through.

I feel there's so much we can and should learn from this situation about how we take care of and treat others, and this is just one piece of that.

[EFerrari]

28. I understand people wanting to make sense of it all -- I do myself

but you're right. That poor family has a right to their privacy now of all times. :(

DU looks to be thinking pretty hard about this issue and it's heartbreaking that this is what it takes to get a national conversation underway. But out of respect for all the lost life, we could do our best to learn from this tragedy and to demand mental health parity as part of the 08 platform.

It feels too soon to say that, but as we saw this week, it's way, way overdue. :(

[AZBlue]

29. It is very overdue.

And, maybe after this week candidates won't be scared to bring up this issue. We've realized as a nation now that there must be discussion about this and hopefully a little bit of the taboo has been removed.

[BlooInBloo]

31. There was a stuttering high school kid on a sports interview show this morning....

... (going to Duke, iirc)...

When I finally noticed it (as different from simply high-school-kid-on-tv-and-nervous), I was like "aw poor kid - that sucks".

Then after I thought about it, I realized that the kid knew perfectly well he stuttered, and still put himself up on national tv regardless - at which point I was like "rock on with your badass stuttering self!"

No real point - just thought I'd pass it on.

lol!

[LostInAnomie]

32. I personally thought he sounded like he sounded like someone with a weak voice...

... trying to make his voice sound deeper and huskier for a video tape where he wanted to portray an image of an ultra masculine bringer of death.

Kind of like how he was a weak and non-intimidating person in real life but all his pictures in his manifesto had him posing with guns, knives, hammers, etc.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. Disagree With The Complete Premise.

In fact, I'm starting to get a bit amazed at the theories after theories that continue to be thrown around by armchair psychologists just searching for some significantly deeper meaning and cause for all this. I can understand that. It's a basic human need to do such things. But I think it's come to reach a height of utter absurdity.

This kid was just a kid who felt detached from society and learned to hate. Once you learn to hate the hate can grow to immense levels that can turn one psychotic though still rational. He hated everything he saw. He hated his life. He hated our country. He hated his peers. He just simply was filled with hate. When it's all said and done that's all it really comes down to in my opinion. Simple and straightforward. He was filled with hate which grew to rage. Maybe our time would be better spent figuring out how to recognize those who harbor hatred and how to help them release and recover from the hatred. Never hear anyone really talk about those things do ya. It's always about "ohhhhh, he's schizo" or "ohhhh, he must've been depressed" or "ohhhhh, his medication made him do it" or "ohhhh, he should've been on medication" or "ohhhhhh, society didn't diagnose his mental disorders properly" or now "ohhhh, maybe he had a speech problem". Oh for christ's sake. The kid just simply hated the fuck out of everything and had that hatred grow deep enough to the point of coldness. When hatred reaches that level you can kill 32 people no problem. You don't have to be a schizophrenic to feel hatred. Don't have to have autism to feel hatred. Don't have be medicated to feel hatred. Don't have to have a speech impediment to feel hatred. Don't have to have ADD to have hatred. No. You just have to fucking be alive. Then, if left unchecked long enough, it can turn into expressed violence. It can just be that damn simple.

Sorry, had to just vent a little.