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So you'd support sending as many as 34,000 more troops to Afghanistan. What for?

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 12:59 PM
Original message
Poll question: So you'd support sending as many as 34,000 more troops to Afghanistan. What for?
Edited on Tue Nov-24-09 01:08 PM by bigtree
What would you support (recommend) the increased force actually doing there?
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Other. I don't support it. nt
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Agreed. Zero support for war, especially unnecessary, phony "war$"
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Unnessary, phony wars
Edited on Tue Nov-24-09 01:43 PM by LWolf
that have bankrupted the nation and made the goals of corporatists and privatizers even easier to achieve.

What are lives worth, in comparison to that?
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Someone's gotta do the dirty work, directly and otherwise
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Where's the "Get the fuck out now" option?
Seriously, let the Karzai brothers defend their own heroin.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. okay
I'll include one.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Voted
:thumb:
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Thanks
:hi:
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. If it takes 34,000 people to transfer our soldiers out of the country
Then bring on the boats, planes and trucks and get them the f out of there.

Other than that, I don't support it.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. This was my answer too.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. other
If Obama wants it, I will support it. Dumb ass move.. Kudos to Obama for rejecting the 4 plans and requesting plans to bring the troops home. Military heads must have flipped when asked to plan with a goal in mind.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I'll be interested to see if Congress actually demands any teeth
. . . to the 'benchmarks' and 'ramps'.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I doubt they will
but I hope the military identifies what is needed to be done in order to get the USA out of Afghanistan.
We either admit defeat or stand down when the (nice) Afghans stand up. Either cut and run or plan to stay 100 years.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. None of the above. Out Now!
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. How about, "To stop the mighty Taliban Navy from invading Manhattan?"
Which makes about as much sense as the other options.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. I'm not putting that notion past supporters of this initiative to escalate
There's so little justification from them outside of 'trust' for the president and a parroting of the prop we've heard for years from the same Bush bunch running things at the Pentagon now.
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Sukie Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. We can not just pull out of there.
We will leave another country vulnerable due to our original stupid move of going in there. We need to help train the Afghan troops, keep the area safe while doing so, and keep other troops and aid workers safe also. Thank goodness that Obama is the one making this decision rather than some cockamamie blogger who has no depth of knowledge on this issue.
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Same arguments were used to justify Vietnam for years.
Thank goodness we finally got out rather than listening to some cockamamie source trotting out those same arguments. Otherwise, we might still be there today.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. We've been in Germany, Japan and Italy for much longer.
The mission of the troops stationed there has changed from occupation to forward defense.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. 'cockamamie blogger'
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. No, I wouldn't.
I'd support getting all existing troops out of there and out of Iraq, and not sending them back.

After that, let's cut the Pentagon budget for good measure.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
17. I could have sworn there were some escalation supporters here
. . . must have been mistaken
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The line a lot of them have relied on is,
"I will wait until a decision is made" Now it is, "I will wait to hear the super awesome new strategy".

They will be supporting it once they are told the reason. They have to wait for the official talking point to know why they think it is a good idea.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. that may be
Still, I really like to see some independent thinking from supporters and defenders of this initiative. I have read comments from those who believe that the public is incapable of understanding complexities behind the decision. If we are, it's the administration's (and defender's) fault and responsibility to educate us along the lines of, at least, their own opinion.

Actually, administration justifications (as folks understand them) would do for the purposes of discussion.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. A combination of the first 5
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. thanks. Is there any priority?
Edited on Tue Nov-24-09 02:06 PM by bigtree
I think the relatively minor difference in numbers between what was requested and granted makes the priorities for those forces somewhat important.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I would think that if there was a major difference between...
what was requested and what is being reported as being granted, then prioritizing the missions would become important.

The Brits had a problem with this during the Revolutionary War. They had the forces to go into New Jersey but lacked the manpower to leave behind to keep the area pacified.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. for me
. . . the importance is in how many troops are allocated for the 'training' of Afghan forces; how many are used for the nation-building defense of Kabul and the surrounding enclaves; and how many would be used for offensive activity which would include border defense and support for strikes into Pakistan. If there were less than I would think the mission would be a narrow one.

This higher number suggests either weighting the mission to one big push in one direction or a scattering of priorities. In the case of the latter, I would be concerned about how the offensive component would affect the nation-building (aid, development, defense of Kabul).
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Good points.
I think they are all important and if Obama decides to go the route that's being reported, he is providing enough troops to fulfill the missions assigned.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
26. I have to hear his reasons before I decide
The leaked info doesn't sound promising, but I'll let him formally explain to me his intentions before I judge them.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-24-09 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
31. I do not support the troops ...period!
I support spending the money and people power right here in the USA. People who join the military are working against the USA by supporting the spending of money on policy wars. A true patriot works to change what's wrong with his or her country. Only a fool would throw away their life and morals over a policy war. Read up on some George Bernard Shaw or Samuel Clemens sometime unless you think they are stupid. Here's some quotes I read to remind me of the truth of the matter.

"Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy." - Henry Kissinger

“Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth.” - Albert Einstein

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in ev’ry age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patrioism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism–it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots – Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. – Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. – Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. – Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but you own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. – Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! – David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. – Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be “American” before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. – Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. – George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. – Thomas Corwin

5. Three relatively positive assessments of patriotism:

A patriot is somebody who protects his country from his government. Or better yet: who has the guts to protect his country from its government. – Piotyr Dirk

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. – Thomas Jefferson
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