This may get deleted but I'm mad!

[MichaelHarris]

the breaking news on MSNBC a few minutes ago ran with a story about glass jars containing notes written more than 15 years ago by children who may have documented sexual abuse by five members of their own family. She needed to tell the truth, THESE PEOPLE ARE MORMONS! Offshoot or not, THE LDS CHURCH HAS NEVER DENOUNCED THEIR ACTIONS!

Tell the truth MSNBC, this family thought it was OK to molest children based on their beliefs.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5icSy8xJFicnYGfHRB1LFS2xAXAewD9BTLH8G0

When you read about abuse on such a large scale most of the time you find some LDS connection. I'm working on my semester paper on Christian and Mormon involvement in the destruction American Indian culture and religion, Christians destroyed through conversion, Mormons did it through a desire to find the "proof" for the Book of Mormon. Either way, we lost a massive amount of oral tradition.

[NYC_SKP]

1. Three of the five men arrested are lay ministers in the Community of Christ church

from the link in OP:

:Alumbaugh said authorities believe there may be bodies buried on the property once owned by two of the five family members arrested Tuesday. He refused to say to whom any of the bodies would have belonged. The property and a nearby home is currently owned by a man unrelated to the case who is cooperating with authorities.

Three of the five men arrested are lay ministers in the Community of Christ church whose licenses have been suspended, church spokeswoman Linda L. Booth said.

The five are charged with several felonies, including forcible sodomy, rape with a child younger than 12 and use of a child in a sexual performance. The allegations, which include bestiality, forcing children into fake marriages with relatives and making an 11-year-old have an abortion, date from 1988 to 1995."

:wtf:

[Pamela Troy]

114. And the relevance of their religion is...?

[Nikki Stone1]

2. Gay adults, bad. Child Molestors, good.

Jesus, save me from your followers.

[cbdo2007]

14. Actually, the Community of Christ church is very gay friendly.

and they have nothing to do with the Mormons.

[MichaelHarris]

17. yes

they do.

[MichaelHarris]

20. All

Mormon and Mormon sects are "Gay Friendly" right now. From the prop 8 incursion into California they saw the writing on the wall. That writing contained 3 words, "Tax Exempt Status" What is the value of the Salt Lake City property alone?

[Pamela Troy]

115. So you know these guys are guilty because....

[Pamela Troy]

116. Dupe

[liberalmuse]

3. Oh hell...

I moved to Salt Lake when I was 15. I can't tell you how many of my Mormon friends were molested by relatives. It's unreal. I worked with a lady who found out her brother-in-law had been molesting her daughter. There is a lot of incest in Utah, for some odd reason. I think it's because of the sexual repression, and the Mormon church putting a tight lid on everything. The problem is, like a pressure cooker, that kettle blows, and in very bad ways. I had a friend when I was 20 who was molested by her father as a child, and when she told her Bishop (church leader), he swept it under the carpet. No one would help her. I had another friend who was raped right in the Mormon shopping center downtown by some guy in a business suit when she was 12. Story after story. I swear to God, 3 out of 5 women I knew had been victims of sexual abuse. And that is just the number who would talk about it. :(

[MichaelHarris]

4. I have a theory

that I wish I could prove. I believe that the church was founded partly as a way to "get at" young women. The story of the LDS group in South America tells the real story. The church the guys above has over a quarter of a million members. That number alone tells us this is an epidemic.

[ArbustoBuster]

40. You're probably right.

When Joseph Smith (the founder of Mormonism, who before his life as a prophet had made his money by pretending to search for treasure by staring at stones in a hat - and I'm not making that up) was in Ohio, he was attacked by a mob and nearly killed because of what the leaders of the mob called Smith's attempt steal their land and to create a dictatorship among the credulous and easily-swayed, and for taking liberties with one of the mob-leaders' sisters. Smith seems to have been as sex-obsessed as any modern cult leader.

[MichaelHarris]

47. Ever ask a Mormon

how Smith was able to run from those bandits carrying hundreds of pounds of gold tablets? He must have been very strong.

[era veteran]

106. I always wondered where that gold went

I think all organized religion is superstitious bullshit.

[boppers]

41. Study more religious history.

LDS was part of wave that rejected existing doctrine of the time, founded in the same wave as the other 1800's churches... if you study them, you may come to different conclusions than I, but you'll have better background on what was happening, and why.

[MichaelHarris]

46. I have a very good

background, thanks for the tip though.

[mwb970]

81. Their crazy "theology" is definitely male-oriented.

The Mormons have softened some of their more extreme, whacked-out "doctrines" for public consumption, but I have read several books about this "religion" and it is even crazier than most of you may realize. Men are elevated to the status of gods and women and children are treated like dirt. It is a nightmare "religion", based on the obvious lies of a sleazy charlatan. It just proves that people will claim to believe anything, as long as it lets them do what they want to do. And we have seen what LDS members want to do!

BTW, I hear that Glenn Beck is a Mormon.

[rd_kent]

92. All theology is crazy.....

none is more wacky than another.

[mitchum]

96. Yes, Mormonism was founded as both a land grab scheme and a...

fuck the young girls scam

[Marr]

113. Bring 'Em Young.

:P

Yep.

[MadMaddie]

5. The Mormon Church, The Catholic Church and Fundamentalist

Christian churches = The Taliban and other extremist religions....

They are a danger to this country and it's citizens.

Last night on the news they were covering two American born Muslim extremist who stand outside a Mosque in New York and rant and rave about killing American soldiers and American citizens.

The religious Christian right and the hate groups in this country have themselves to blame because the very laws that protect their gay bashing and racist bashing (insert all other bashings) protect these two idiots and others like them. Everthing comes full circle..

[BuelahWitch]

82. That was my experience with them too, liberalmuse

A friend of mine was raped by her brother-in-law. He also molested his step-children and went to jail for that. But no repercussions from the Church.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. The Mormon church started out as abusive to women and children as most other

religions. Those who break off from religions seeking to become fairer, are often seeking to retain their perversion.

I don't do religion well myself at all.

As for these a-holes, they need to be thrown in a hard prison to be raped repeatedly.

[Angry Dragon]

15. Religion and "Churches" are two different things

[MichaelHarris]

18. In the

Mormon faith the Church is the religion.

[Angry Dragon]

19. Not totally

If that was the case then there would be no one leaving the church

I had sent you an email a little while ago....If you care to talk further we can do it by email...

[MichaelHarris]

24. I'll remain

public, why in the world would you want this discussion to go private? Sorry, I read the email but I still want to remain public. To answer your question, it took months and months gathering my sources and weeks of interviews. Two reasons I can't share my work and resources with strangers, as you will find out the LDS are rewriting history as we speak, it has become a nightmare for the researcher. I will give you a tip, research every author. If you feel a piece of history has been rewritten then chances are you found a BYU author. One example is the rewriting of the ghost Dance Movement. The second reason, I wouldn't want to make it easy for someone to "rewrite" my work. I hope you understand, good luck with your book.

[Angry Dragon]

26. I have read much on the rewriting of LDS

and I would not rewrite your stuff. That would not be within me.

[MichaelHarris]

29. I'll give you a great

starting point, a page or two from my work:

The Catholics came to convert; the Latter Day Saints came to prove their faith, one early example of this “proof” was Quetzalcoatl, the most well known Aztec God. The name Quetzalcoatl is derived from the Nahuatl language, quetzal meaning emerald plumed, and coatl meaning serpent, in other words, feathered serpent. The story of Quetzalcoatl is very interesting in and of itself, volumes have been written about Mesoamerica culture and religion. The Mormons or Latter Day Saints point to Quetzalcoatl as evidence to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon tells the story of Christ being resurrected in America shortly after crucifixion. The story goes on to explain early American, Mesoamerican, and even South American religion and culture.

Lamanitish tradition has preserved the account of the ministry among the ancient inhabitants off America of a white God called Quetzalcoatl...Quetzalcoatl was a favorably disposed man, of grave aspect, white and bearded. His dress was a long tunic...He told them that in time to come...he would return, and then his doctrine would be received. Almost without exception Latter-day Saints have associated these traditions with the ministry of the resurrected Christ among the Nephites. President John Taylor, for instance, has written: 'The story of the life of the Mexican divinity, Quetzalcoatl, closely resembles that of the Savior; so closely, indeed, that we can come to no other conclusion than that Quetzalcoatl and Christ are the same being. (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie)

The problem with this account is very important, the only description we have of Quetzalcoatl came from Spanish missionaries driven to convert the conquered. Any story post contact should be considered suspect, no native description exists that depicts Quetzalcoatl with a flowing robe and white skin. In truth, the pre-contact glyphs and steles show the exact opposite, nothing known of Aztec legend implies that he had been a white man in his human form on earth. Pre-contact art depicts either a feathered serpent or a human wearing a mask. Depictions without a mask consist of a black face, sometimes with yellow stripes and a red mouth. It is quite possible that the Spanish conquerors created the myth of Quetzalcoatl’s return in the form of Hernan Cortes, the white, bearded Spanish explorer famous for conquering the Aztec empire.

As ethnohistorian Nigel Davies points out, in “native” versions of the myth there is no mention of any prophesy about the return of Quetzalcoatl in the year I reed, or in any other year. Davies concludes that it was after the Spanish Conquest that the original legend was transformed with the story of a prophetic return. It therefore seems doubtful that Motecuhzoma was ever fully convinced that Cortes was the returning deity. Rather, what apparently happened was that Motecuhzoma, seeking to explain the presence of the strangers, deduced that because Quetzalcoatl had disappeared in the east the strange new chieftain coming from that direction might be the ancestral king returning to claim his throne. More recently, anthropologist Susan Gillespie has argued convincingly that the whole story of Cortes as Quetzalcoatl was created after the Conquest by Aztec historians in an attempt to make sense of the Spaniards’ arrival and victory, interpreting it as the outcome of a pattern of events established long ago, in the remote Toltec past. (The Aztecs, Richard F. Townsend, p.18)

The misconceptions don’t end with the Aztecs,if the Book of Mormon were true, Native Americans would have DNA that can be traced to Middle-eastern ancestry, archaeologists could go to the remains of ancient Native American towns, excavate down to the levels that were active between 600 BCE and 385 CE, and uncover evidences of Nephite or Lamanite writings, domesticated horses, old world plants, chariots, inscriptions, and metal objects. The Excavation of Comorah Hill near Palmyra, NY should reveal countless artifacts left by the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who died there in the two major battles discussed in the Book of Mormon. The evidence however, tells a different story, genetic and blood testing studies have found that Native Americans are related closely to the inhabitants of Siberia and not to the ancient Israelites, as the Book of Mormon states, some Mormons have claimed that records and inscriptions such as the Bat Creek Stone, the Kinderhook Plates, the Newark Stones and the Phoenician Ten Commandments" Prove the Book of Mormon; all have been proven forgeries. (L.C. Scott, "The Mormon Mirage Zondervan, (1979), Pages 77 to 85)

Finally, no artifact or inscription has ever been found anywhere in the New World to support any claim made in the Book of Mormon.

Here is a prime example of a culture being stolen to prove the LDS belief. The Catholics converted, the Mormons stole the culture and history.

[Angry Dragon]

31. I just read something about Quetzalcoatl the other day........

[MichaelHarris]

33. the

key thing to think about with Quetzalcoatl, the Mormon description is identical to the description of Cortes, white, bearded, robes...you get the idea. No where will you find pre-contact art that will depict Quetzalcoatl in this form. Another good tip is the "spaceship" Quetzalcoatl. Every indigenous group has held birds, especially the eagle in high regards. The gold inscription Mormons turn to to "prove" the Quetzalcoatl/Christ space connection is actually Quetzalcoatl on the back of an eagle. Everyone except Mormons can see the carved feathers.

[boppers]

49. Good track, here.

The Egyptology/Mormon/Catholic (etc.) work is similar, actually.

Religions tend to adapt, and adopt, based on beliefs held at the time.

[Angry Dragon]

56. Any links to go with that??

Maybe it is just me but I really do not see much adapting in the Catholic Church. It just seems that they allied themselves with governments to gain control of the people.

[MichaelHarris]

58. Dragon

this would be one of those areas I warned you about. You have a member of the LDS church here attempting to "blame" the past on some religious pathway. Stick with the fact right in front of you, force the finding of the "white" Aztec God. Don't let the discussion be steered toward some connection between religions that are meant to cloud the question. The only question before you, was Jesus reborn in the Americas? Was the Garden of Eden in Missouri? Focus on specific claims, watch for misdirection.

I have to get back to writing, letting you know so "no one" can claim they ran me off with their "proof." Good luck with your work. Look at the Ghost Dance Movement, the massacre at Wounded Knee and the Latter Day Saint involvement. The US sent an ethnographer to the reservation right after and found that the Mormons had been greatly involved. Read about the "Ghost Shirts" and compare those to the "sacred garments" of Mormonism. The Ghost Shirts didn't stop the bullets. Hope that grabs your interest. :)

[Angry Dragon]

62. I have always found what works the best for me is not to fear the devil but embrace it

I do not fear the dark side. It is only by challenging the dark side can one learn of it. Well good luck with your writing. Reading Wounded Knee now.

[MichaelHarris]

65. Don't forget the

comparison between the Ghost Shirts and the Sacred Undergarments the Mormons wear. That's very, very important. Men, women, and children died believing in the Ghost Shirt:

The shirt was firmly believed to be impenetrable to bullets or weapons of any sort. When one of the women shot in the Wounded Knee massacre was approached as she lay in the church and told that she must let them remove her ghost shirt in order the better to get at her wound, she replied: “Yes; take it off. They told me a bullet would not go through. Now I don’t want it any more.” James Mooney The Role of Ghost Shirts & Ghost Dance Dresses

[Angry Dragon]

66. Thank You......have a good journey

[Hannah Bell]

97. interesting again, & fits with my own vague speculations about the founding of mormonism.

look into the leadership's family & business connections too.

it's been awhile since i looked at it, but i seem to remember there were some interesting bits.

[boppers]

72. Let me know when catholics are monotheists, instead of worshiping the gods of their areas.

Has "mary worship" been purged, yet?

Do catholics still pray to her?

[Angry Dragon]

87. No.....,I believe she is a very large part of their prays

Even as saints are prayed to.

My belief is that if a church as the true path to a god that they promote and do not share every aspect of that church is suspect. Any church that uses force, threats, changes things, is suspect.

[Hannah Bell]

99. they all do. so there you have it.

[Hannah Bell]

95. interesting. to mention a couple of other things: religion/missions historically serve functions

besides simple conversion that you don't mention:

spying/intelligence

resource/land scouting

pacification

tribal division (reducing potential of united front v. invaders/settlers)

& of course, creation of cadres who'll follow orders thinking they're doing god's will, = workers, political allies, soldiers, etc.


the coincidence of the mormon migration/settlement w/ the cross-continental railroad i find interesting:

No state nor people figures more prominently in the story of the Pacific Railroad than do Utah and Utahns, particularly the Mormons. Mormon pioneers blazed the trail for much of the route of the railroad. The Mormon empire in the Great Basin provided much of the incentive for construction of the railroad. Mormons were among the first to petition Congress to construct the railroad. Brigham Young was one of the very first to subscribe to Union Pacific stock. Mormons provided much of the labor and capital in construction of the railroad, doing some of the surveying on Union Pacific and the grading on both Central Pacific and Union Pacific through Utah. It was in Utah that the railroad was completed. Ogden, Utah, became the terminal point and the junction for the two railroad companies. Utah was site of one of the first branch lines on the Pacific Railroad. And Utah was to a peculiar degree both benefactor and beneficiary of the railroad, both as to passenger service and freight, for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints utilized the railroad greatly with its missionary and immigration programs, and the mining industry could be developed extensively only with the aid of railroad facilities.

http://cprr.org/Museum/Stewart-Iron_Trail.html

The Mormon pioneers were members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as Latter-day Saints, who migrated across the United States from the Midwest to the Salt Lake Valley in what is today the U.S. state of Utah. The journey was taken by about 70,000 people beginning in April 1847, and ending with the completion of the First Transcontinental Railroad in 1869.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_pioneers

[MichaelHarris]

100. and that

is some wonderful information :)

[Angry Dragon]

28. I have studied religion for over 40 years and

have decided it is time to write the things I have found out about it. So this is not something that just came to me

[MichaelHarris]

32. I posted a

pretty good starting point for you.

[Wickerman]

7. the church has severed connections with them

Booth, the church spokeswoman, said none of the Mohlers served in leadership roles in the congregations they attended "nor did they serve as volunteer youth workers, teach children or youth church school, or work with children or youth."

"The church takes seriously the allegations that have been made and suspended the priesthood licenses of three lay ministers: Burrell Mohler Sr., David Mohler and Jared Mohler," the church said in a statement.

from the link in the OP

[MichaelHarris]

11. I'm actually

Talking about the mainstream church publicly denouncing the LDS splinter groups. I should have been more clear, sorry :) I know the mainstream church has severed ties but they have never made public declarations condemning these actions. The stories coming out of South America and the LDS communities there are an example. They should be issuing statements condemning that.

[hfojvt]

8. where do you get that?

the business that "this family thought it was OK to molest children based on their beliefs"

because that sounds like a leap of your faith.

Are you claiming that that entire denomination teaches or practices molestation or something?

Not sure how your semester paper ties into this, except that it is another 'reason' for your hatred of Christianity and Mormonism.

[Dreamer Tatum]

10. I read it that way, too

But wholesale attacks on certain religions are nothing new here.

[MichaelHarris]

12. No hatred

I happen to be a Christian, nice try though. You can read and understand the stories from Texas, this story, and the South American LDS members locked up for child abuse any way you like. I see a pattern, I know the history of the Latter Day Saints. "A vision for polygamy" Smith's wife had a vision for multiple husbands. Know what happened? Smith had another vision condemning multiple husbands. Odd huh?

"Joseph was commanded to take more wives and he waited until an angel with a drawn sword stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that command he would slay him."
- Hyrum Smith, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson's Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903

"I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him."
- Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and Manuscripts

Revisionist Mormon history: "I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives.... I am innocent of all these charges.... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers."

—Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6:410–411

If you don't like the history, change it. The new LDS motto

[NJCher]

34. oh please

You need to do your research on this sick "religion."

This religious front for pedophilia and other sick behavior (like polygamy) has been going on for a long, long time. It is appalling and disgusting that the political establishment and law enforcement have not had the courage to deal with it.

Don't you recall what happened when they tried to rescue those children in the last go-around with these nutcases?

Pitiful--and the main criticism of that lone courageous effort probably came from people as uninformed as you.


Cher

[MichaelHarris]

36. People

have been killed throughout the short history of the LDS faith for speaking out against the church. I think the last person I remember was in the late 70s in Denver, a radio personality I think. Their main thrust right now is re-writing their history. BYU historians,anthropologists,and archeologists are spreading out across the Americas scrubbing and re-writing. It's so very important to research the author of every book before you use it as a source right now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. More local coverage

Search in family sex abuse case also is for bodies, Lafayette sheriff says

Police Search For Bodies, Notes In Sex Abuse Case

Sheriff: May Be More Victims In Sex Crimes Case

Pictures: Bates City Sex Crimes Investigation

[cbdo2007]

13. These people are NOT Mormons. The RLDS broke off from the Mormons

like 150 years ago and are now the Community of Christ and do not practice the same freaked out things the Mormon's practice.

In fact, Community of Christ are one of the most liberal Christian groups around and it would benefit you to do some research before you just spout off some stupid sh*t:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_christ

[MichaelHarris]

16. wiki

as fact? The place where anyone can update? I've done my research and it still stands. Seriously, I can do pages and pages of research for you but it won't do any good. You're defending an organized religion that has flaws and is attempting to re-write it's history as fast as it can. They recently fired from BYU, and excommunicated a well respected DNA researcher because he published results discrediting the native American connection. They purchased Rootsweb, once a great place for tribal research and stripped the scientific links from the sites.

Nothing I'm going to tell you will mean a thing, the blind faith monkey has eaten your soul.

[boppers]

38. wiki means "quick".

It's helpful to understand your sources properly before you credit, or discredit, them. The LDS wikipedia articles have had some amazing scholarship poured into them, and a lot of BS dumped from them... they're a good team. I work on the Scientology team (another controversial belief system), because I'm too close to LDS arguments (WP:COI).

As far as mainstream LDS "tidying up" their history, well, welcome to religion, and religious studies.

Most modern Christians, for example, had a shitload of "tidying up" to do when they decided to worship a man as a god... it caused quite the stir, until they came up with a compromise where a man was (a) god, and wasn't (a) god, was a man, and wasn't a man, and was born, but not of sex... yeah.

[Kitty Herder]

110. What has any of that got to do with the Community of Christ?

The Community of Christ (RLDS) has nothing to do with BYU. How could they have anything to do with firing the DNA researcher?

The Community of Christ purchased Rootsweb? I thought that was the LDS church?

What has one got to do with the other in this day and age? The two religions went their separate ways in the 1840s and took very different trajectories.

I'm not defending either religion. I just think it's important to have your facts straight.

[MichaelHarris]

22. Tribal info

I found this while researching the fee land acreage for the Shoshone-Bannock tribe. I found it very interesting but I didn’t have time to verify the newspaper sources. I may use some of it in my paper for my Native American Indian Anthropology class. It’s a huge paper but this fits into my story pretty well.

Paraphrased to make it a more cohesive story:

Members of a self proclaimed LDS splinter group called, "Church of the Firstborn and General Assembly of Heaven" want to build a church on Shoshone-Bannock tribal land
Idaho State Journal article- Sept. 15, 2009

Reports are that about 30-40 people moved onto a rural lot located on the Fort Hall reservation on reservation road, early this summer. They are members of a self proclaimed LDS splinter group called, "Church of the Firstborn and General Assembly of Heaven." They've moved into the home owner's house and have crowded a few trailers on to the lot. The lot has a well that is shared with 4 neighbors. The septic system is designed for normal family occupancy, not 40+ people, every day- all day. Neighbors are concerned that the excess use of the septic system will cause it to overflow/fail and contaminate the aquifer.

The church members want to build a 18,000 square foot, motel-like structure on the property that is 3 stories tall, which will contain 38 rooms. People are concerned about the number of people on the property and the strain it will put on rural septic and water systems. The 3-story structure will also give the rural area a commercial look. After the meeting, the group was asked why they didn't just go buy land out in the middle of nowhere and build on that property. They replied that they could not afford it.

There is controversy about this group. The FBI, Secret Service and Child Protective Service raided their Magna, Utah residence prior to their mass move to Fort Hall. At that time, the Salt Lake Sheriff's Office said it found nothing to substantiate the allegations made by former members. Tony Galloway Sr., Chairman of Fort Hall Land Use Policy Commission, said he had expectations of a large crowd based on the number of calls the Tribal Council's office received prior to the meeting. He also said there were some concerns the debate would become heated.

"We had a cop here, the lot owner is not a tribal member, it's fee land. In any case, it is highly doubtful that the Tribes will allow them to build a high density occupation dwelling in that area. There is not infrastructure support for that many people.”


From the Idaho State Journal: 9-21-09
"Members of a religious sect making waves in Fort Hall claim they were led to Pocatello area by the spirit. Their mission: to serve the members of the Shoshone-Bannock Tribes as well as others in the area." Harmon says the group was told by the Lord a year in advance they were to move to the area and would end up on the reservation.




From the Journal 9-25-2009:
Church says they need time to mull the situation, "We haven't made a decision. We need a little more time. We counsel with the Lord in all our doings and we need to do that first." - Geody Harman, one of the church's leaders.

Their request to build an 18,000 square foot, 3-story, dormitory style building, containing 36 bedrooms and 15 bathrooms, sleeping, eating and living quarters, a garage and rooms for prayer meetings and spiritual teachings and also the intention to use portions of the facility for small business endeavors, including construction services, has been denied by the Shoshone-Bannock Tribes' Land Use Commission.

During the September hearing, 25 people spoke against the permit. Sixteen non-residents of Fort Hall and two non-Indian residents of the reservation also submitted written comments opposing the application. Several neighbors submitted lengthy written statements opposing the permit and one neighbor submitted a petition with 108 signatures of individuals opposing it.

Except for the applicant's own statement in support of the permit, no comments in support of the application were submitted. The occupants of the lot were cited. The Land Use Commission wrote, "You are in violation of the laws and regulations of the Shoshone-Bannock Tribes. Your current use and that of the numerous occupants of the property violates the Tribes' land use policy ordinance..."

The letter also ordered Ahlstrom to "Immediately cease and desist further misuse of the residential property." If the property doesn't comply with the approved use for single-dwelling residence, the Tribes will pursue all available legal remedies and seek payment of civil penalties, costs and attorneys fees.

The decision by the 3 member Land Use Commission indicates the number of people occupying the residence and living in trailers exceeds the number allowed for a single-family dwelling unit. It also states the current use of the property is inconsistent with its agricultural land use designation and it strains the surrounding water resources.

"It over burdens the existing septic systems,, endangering the underground water resource and the health and welfare of reservation residents. The large number of people coming and going is disruptive." The application claimed the structure would be for a single family comprised of 35 people - 16 adults and 19 children - but the commission determined the individuals do not actually constitute a single family.

The group claims to be sealed to one another spiritually and thus constitutes one family.
Contrary to the applicant's representations, the commission stated, "It is clearly not a single-family residence." While the Commission respects the groups freedom to believe and worship as it sees fit, "Their beliefs are not consistent with the tribal law definition of what constitutes an immediate family or marriage."

The Commission's letter said the proposed use of the land would cause detrimental and unacceptable sewage disposal consequences. The existing sewer system does not come close to meeting the increased load of approximately 35 people, nor does the proposed septic system adequately address the sewage disposal interests.
The 'Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven' has decided it will move to another location after being denied a permit to build their compound on the fee lot on reservation road in Fort Hall.

"We're going to be compliant with their requests." Church Leader Geody Harman told the Journal. The church came here to serve the Shoshone Bannock people, not argue with them.
Comments left on AmericanIndian.com:

Just lovely, we’re gonna get missionaried again...

If the Lord told them, I wonder why He didn't tell the Shoshone-Bannock Tribes as well as others in the area."

I hope they can get them out of there before they do irreparable damage.

Now the hard part, getting them to move out

As of Monday, 19 October 2009:
Most members of a religious sect looking to establish a permanent base on a tribal reservation in eastern Idaho now have until the end of the month to vacate the property.
Leaders of the Shoshone-Bannock tribe say they don't expect any problems with the Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven to meet the Oct. 29 deadline.
But tribal attorney Mark Echo Hawk tells the Idaho State Journal the tribe is prepared to take legal action if necessary to enforce the deadline.
Members of the sect set up residence on the Reservation earlier this year after moving from Utah and hoping to build permanent structures.
Last month, the tribe's land Use Policy Commission rejected a permit for the sect to build a three-story, 18,000-square-foot building on nearly four acres.


There is more than one splinter group. I don't know why I'm even bothering

[TicketyBoo]

25. From your link…

Community of Christ points to Jesus Christ as the living Word of God and affirms the Bible, along with the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture for the church.

Since they accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, it does sound like they are still affiliated with Mormonism.

[MichaelHarris]

27. Thank you

for a very important point. I would ask the defender who posted the Wiki link to also find me a public statement form the Mormon Church denouncing this splinter group.

[boppers]

30. Since they accept the Bible, it does sound like they are still affiliated with Christianity

Has the pope personally denounced this yet?

[MichaelHarris]

35. In the LDS

faith, the Bible is supplemental. The BOM in the blessed scripture.

[boppers]

37. Blatant, anti-Mormon, Bullshit.

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

#8 in the Articles of Faith.

Wikipedia link:
http://tinyurl.com/yacv3qy

You obviously have no idea, whatsoever, about what you're talking about.


edit: fix DU square bracket markup

[MichaelHarris]

39. I do

the difference between you and I is I don't have the blind faith preventing me from seeing the truth. Which article of faith forbids you from reading anti-Mormon literature? If you don't know it I have it in my notes. Not sure you want to do this though, I'm not blinded.

Did you want to describe to the readers the "as far as it's translated correctly" or should I? Did you also want to say which one is held in esteem over the other?

[boppers]

43. No article of faith blinds me. Your notes don't have one, either.

Your notes are likely about things other than the Articles of Faith.

FWIW: I was raised as a LDS believer, now I'm not.

Please re-read the above before responding....

and again....

Thanks. You're making false assumptions, and it makes you look bad.

As far as "translated correctly", I learned to read multiple translations, and later, I learned some Koine and the many variants of Hebrew, so I wasn't blinded by translation errors. Finding such translation errors (and resulting dogma) in modern churches is what led me to reject quite a few faiths as "true", actually, as they can't even be bothered to admit their errors.

Anyways, getting back to bible basics, here's a simple exercise: can you explain JEDP, without looking it up, or do you actually know very, very, very, little about biblical scholarship?

The reason I ask is that I'm totally willing to exchange in dialog with people who understand a topic, but arguing relativity with people who believe in a flat earth is a bit of a time-waster.

[MichaelHarris]

45. So

the lost Egyptian language Smith claimed does exist? No Egyptian scholars have ever heard of such a language. I'm not claiming a knowledge in biblical scholarship, nice attempt to change the debate though. I'm talking about The Book of Mormon being the word of God.

[boppers]

54. I haven't seen any proof for that language, no.

However, if you're claiming knowledge of *any* text being the word of God, it might be good if you actually knew the language, wouldn't it?

[MichaelHarris]

55. Only Smith

claimed to know the language.

[boppers]

71. How much Koine do you know?

I'm guessing none.

That would explain some things.

[MichaelHarris]

75. Not sure

what a form of Macedonia has to do with the form of Egyptian that Smith claimed to know, that no one has ever seen since has anything to do with the discussion other than to dilute. You keep trying trying though, someday you may find those ancient coins in the mounds, you may find Egyptian inscriptions next to rock art, hell you may find the Garden of Eden in Missouri. I doubt it but if that mythology gives you peace then have fun with that. Don't mind my laughing.

[boppers]

79. Good luck on your antho degree.

[MichaelHarris]

57. my notes actually

do contain that information. I have copies of letters that say that Church members should not read anti-Mormon literature and that it was OK to lie to defend the BOM. Dated in the 1950s and I'm looking for them now. I use a Kindle and a Sony eReader as well as paper notes so It's a bit of a mess. you know they exist but you'll deny it.

[FreeState]

59. You dont know what the Articles of Faith are do you?

Im no longer a member but seriously if your going to try and attack the faith you might want to understand its terminology before claiming things that are simply not true.

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html

The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

1) We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2) We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3) We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4) We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5) We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6) We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7) We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8) We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9) We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10( We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11) We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12) We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13) We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

---


That is what is called the Articles of Faith. Its a set of beliefs Joseph Smith outlined - you memorize them as a member when your a young adult.

[MichaelHarris]

60. yes I do know those

I also know of the ones written in letters between the Elders, protect the Church and the BOM, if you have to lie it would be forgivable. If you see anti-Mormon literature don't read it. I have the source, I just can't find it right now. I guess that means I don't know what I'm talking about. The letters I have are in reference to the articles of faith and how the Latter Day Saints handle the attacks on the church. There is a public Church and a hidden Church doctrine, I'm sure you found that out.

[FreeState]

61. You still dont understand what Im saying

earlier you said in a reply to the 8th Article of Faith: "Which article of faith forbids you from reading anti-Mormon literature? If you don't know it I have it in my notes. Not sure you want to do this though, I'm not blinded."

There is not one - if you know even basic LDS beliefs you know what the articles of faith are - they are 13 short statements of beliefs. Thats it - there are no more.

[MichaelHarris]

64. Yes

you are correct and I didn't say what I meant very well. What I meant was there are letters between elders and Presidents that define what can and can't be done to protect the Church and history (the BOM) and stay within the Articles of Faith. Take for example 13, the one about lying. The letters, copies from the 50s say it's OK to lie to defend the Church.

Article 8 has has the disclaimer, the translation one, I don't have them in front of me. The letters say that no other book will be held in esteem over the BOM. The translation clause in 8 is the reason given. In the late 50s and early 60s documents started disappearing, the information in these letters came from one of the elders who actually composed them for approval. It's OK to doubt me, I can't put my finger on them right now.

[boppers]

70. Yolu're thinking in Catholic terms, about Mormon belief.

The error should be obvious.

[MichaelHarris]

42. Is this the word of God?

Indians/Native Americans are a filthy and loathsome people   “And it came to pass that I beheld, after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.” (BoM, 1 Nephi 12: 23)

Indians/Native Americans are cursed with dark skin   “And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity…as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.” (BoM, 2 Nephi 5: 21)


Mormons should marry Indians/Native Americans to make them white   “For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles.” Joseph Smith, 1831 (Leonard J. Arrington and Davis Bitton. The Mormon Experience, p. 195)  

“Brigham now teaches that ‘the way God has revealed for the purification of the Indians, and making them ‘a white and delightsome people,’ as Joseph prophesied, is by us taking the Indians squaws for wives!!’ Accordingly several of these tawny beauties have been already ‘sealed’ to some of the Mormon authorities.” John H. Hyde, Jr. (Mormonism, pp. 109-10)

I can go on for a very long time, I do know what I'm talking about.

[boppers]

44. My belief: God doesn't write in english, or any other human language.

So that would be a "NO" from me on it being the literal word of god.

Of course, the "mark of cain" was long a part of christian slavery, and oppression of those who looked different, but that's not a white thing, that's a "people who don't look like me thing".

As far as the mormons trying to marry/convert indigenous people, believing them to be ancestors, that's a bit touchy. There's some clear racism in there (as in the rest of the modern western, and eastern, religious texts), along with arguments to co-opt the peoples.

[MichaelHarris]

48. He writes

in a lost Egyptian language found here in America that no other scholar has ever heard of. Don't you believe your own book?

Heward, Grant (1927-1998): Doubting the authenticity of the Book of Abraham, he submitted Joseph Smith’s Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar to some of the world’s top Egyptologists. When they declared it a fraud, he openly challenged the validity of the translation of the Book of Abraham and was excommunicated from the LDS Church.

[boppers]

50. Not my book.

Jousting against strawmen is not effective.

[MichaelHarris]

51. You deny

the Book of Mormon then?

[boppers]

52. I don't deny the power of faith to any religious book.

I might as well ask you if you deny the Gospel of Judas, so, do you?

[MichaelHarris]

53. you want to

do The Bible next week and finish the BOM this week? Changing the book isn't going to prove anything. I'll ask again, do you believe the BOM to be the word of God?

[boppers]

68. Which bible?

You seem to have brought a knife to a gun fight.

Do you believe in unicorns? They're in some bibles.

[MichaelHarris]

76. hahahahaha

re-read my post and dodge it once again, here I'll repeat it: "I'll ask again, do you believe the BOM to be the word of God?"

Unicorns, hahahahahahaha what will you use next to dilute, gold fish? You're not that bright are you?

[boppers]

78. I don't believe the BOM or the Bible to be the word of god, Works of man are tainted.

Clear enough for you?

Do unicorns exist?
Do rabbits have multiple stomachs?

The bible says they do.

[Kitty Herder]

109. Not true.

I took four years of Mormon seminary as a teenager. Two of them were focused on the Bible. Only one year was focused on the Book of Mormon. The other year was about the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price and church history.

Mormons see the Bible as flawed in translation, but as vitally important scripture.

[Angry Dragon]

63. What would the Pope have to do with that??

[boppers]

69. The OP was about denouncing things connected to belief.

See the absurdity yet?

[TicketyBoo]

74. It was my understanding that

all Mormon sects are also Christian sects because they do accept the Bible.

Has the Pope denounced what? As far as I know, the Pope doesn't have much to do with other Christian religions outside of Catholicism, so I don't get your point?

The person to whom I replied said that the church under discussion had nothing to to with Mormons, citing a Wikipedia link. I was merely pointing out that that very link says that they are a Mormon sect.

But I think you knew what I meant because it is rather obvious. So I guess you were being argumentative about it, or took my comment as a slam against Mormonism? It wasn't meant that way.

If your point was that the Mormon Church has cast out this sect (which it may well have done, for all I know), that doesn't keep them from following the Book of Mormon, so I would consider them Mormons, since they do. That was my only point.

[cbdo2007]

84. MichaelHarris isn't even worth responding to and his lack of knowledge regarding this.

Although Community of Christ was originally founded as a break-off from the Morman religion, you would get confused stares if you asked most COC members about this and would probably just get laughed at if you asked the Mormon's about the RLDS (COC)

And in regards to Wikipedia, people like to spout off how inaccurate it is because anyone can edit it, yet I have very rarely seen inaccuracies in topics I've researched on there. It's easy to "debunk" them just by saying anyone can edit it yet I think you'd have quite a hard time finding any falsehoods in the Community of Christ link I posted. You're welcome to try, but then again you seem more willing to just argue than to do some research because they're just crazy bible-thumpers.

[MichaelHarris]

88. yet

you did.

[Kitty Herder]

108. I was raised Mormon. Believe me, the Community of Christ (RLDS) is NOT Mormon.

I agree with much of what Michael Harris (any relation to Martin? ;-) ) says about Mormons. Their treatment of Native Americans has been reprehensible. Their Indian Placement Program was unforgivable in its attempts to assimilate native children.

But WTF? Do you(Michael Harris) know anything about the RLDS(Community of Christ)? They are not the same church at all. I can tell you that people in the the LDS church certainly don't think of them as Mormons. They're hardly aware of them, except as the people who own some of the historic sites of the early church, including the Kirtland temple. The RLDS broke off shortly after Joseph Smith died, they rejected polygamy and they never moved out west with the rest of the Mormons. Their beliefs are different and they're a more open and liberal church than the LDS church. They even ordain women. Not a bad lot at all, in my opinion. I tend to think of their existence and their ownership of historical sites important to Mormons as Emma's revenge. Lord knows she deserved some.

What these child abusers did was unforgivable. But to try to link it to the entire Community of Christ (RLDS) let alone to Mormonism? That's a hell of a stretch. And that's coming from someone who is highly critical of the LDS church.

Michael, you say the LDS church should denounce the actions of these horrible criminals. Why? Aside from the general principle that all people should denounce such actions, why the LDS church specifically? What have they to do with them? Nothing. Nothing at all. I'm not sure if you understand how wide the divide is between the LDS church and the Community of Christ.

[Missy Vixen]

21. Michael, you've read "Under the Banner of Heaven", right?

Chilling book.

I'll bet your paper is pretty interesting, too.

[MichaelHarris]

23. Thank you very much

I have that book on my list for the Bibliography.

[Kitty Herder]

107. But what does that book have to do with the RLDS?

The RLDS were adamantly opposed to polygamy from their founding. Remember, they're basically Emma Smith's branch of the LDS church. They claimed that Joseph Smith forbade it and didn't practice it.

Plus, they never came out west. They have nothing to do with the FLDS that Krakauer talks about in his book.

[kid a]

119. That book has everything to do with everything LDS FLDS and RLDS

The book's foundation lies in the infancy of the Mormon church, prior to Joseph's "visions", when he was a charlatan, crystal ball reader.
The book traces the development of all the LDS branches, including RLDS. The RLDS DID NOT claim Joseph Smith didn't practice it - in fact, the split by Emma Smith and the creation of the RLDS were precisely BECAUSE Joseph Smith secretly, then openly practiced polygamy and pedophilia.

Krakaur leaves the RLDS back east as he traces Brigham Young's migration West, but returns to talk about inner fighting in the RLDS about polygamy late 1800s and early 1900s.

[tkmorris]

67. You're all quite mad, you know that yes?

Mad as hatters.

[boppers]

73. I think your hat size is small.

The question is not about madness, but about degree.

edit:typo

[MichaelHarris]

77. with you

it may actually be madness

[timtom]

80. Are you kidding?

This has been one of the best discussions of this type on this board. Even the insults were intelligent and thoughtful. Seriously.

[tosh]

83. +1.

[MichaelHarris]

89. Thanks for that

:) I've done a ton of hard work and plenty of long hours doing the research. Talked to an adviser today about it and I may get a chance at a journal publication. I still have to finish the early contact stuff. You have to imagine a bit but think about what aboriginal creation stories would be like without missionary contact? We have no idea, the stories were either banned, some people were even killed for telling them. Think Pueblo Revolt of 1680. When the stories weren't completely destroyed they were incorporated. Could this be the reason most tribes have a flood story?

[MichaelHarris]

102. just another wall

I hit tonight. I had to get some data from rootsweb again and they have completely removed the DNA work now, not just broken links now, it's gone. Worst than that, real historical figures have been replaced with Mormon figures and missionaires. Two days ago this site had DNA broken links, they are now gone: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~idreserv/fhhist.html

The historical figure, Wilson Price Hunt is now directed to a broken link named xMission. The only "historical" person is a Mormon missionary named John Ball, he wrote a Mormon account/diary of his travels. The traditional account has been replaced with a Mormon account. This is happening to me every night. I am going to publish this work, I amgoing to include the LDS matter.

[timtom]

105. I believe most of us are with you on this fight.

I am a cultural archivist of another sort. Fortunately, my area is not politically influenced.

[MichaelHarris]

111. thanks for that

I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. I've alerted a number of professors and grad students.

[Odin2005]

85. Religion is evil.

:grr:

[Angry Dragon]

86. No.........far from it

religion is just a personal path.......even people without a god have religion

Churches that promote rigidity are the evil.

[MichaelHarris]

90. From my paper

The question is not whether there is a higher power or not; that is something best left up to the individual and should be respected. The issue this essay addresses is how religion, especially the missionary system, has been used. Religion can be a peaceful thing, it can also be used to destroy past knowledge and in some cases, the very life of the people they claim as ancestors.

One can hypothesize that from the deepest, darkest cave of prehistory, to the late 19th Century, religion had been used to control the minds and the will of the people. Religion can be considered a means of dominance as well as an inspiration for proliferation. One could even argue that Religion has achieved its goal within civilized societies; control and population growth are the norm. When populations grew beyond the hunter gatherer status; when growth expanded out of the cave and into the villages, tribal leaders sought a means of control. With roofs over their heads and walls for protection, people began to think freely. Dissent often arose from those who gathered under the protection of shelter, especially those who suffered at the hands of violent rulers. These tribal leaders and the ruling elites developed an omnipresent entity, one who could see through the walls and roofs, to achieve their basic need, control, and the basic need of a community, propagation or growth. This common theme has weaved its way throughout the history of mankind and religion. When we needed an “angry” God to control the savages, the Old Testament prevailed with its fire and brimstone approach. As societies became more civilized a new peaceful God was desired, this desire gave way to the New Testament and Jesus. The methods of the old world found their way to the new world with religion and its voice, the missionary.

Few people accept that when Christopher Columbus stood on tiny Guanahani Island and “took” possession of the New World he was following the rules of Christianity. This “take possession”, also known as The Doctrine of Discovery, became one of the tools used to eradicate the traditions and beliefs of almost every culture in North, Central, and South American. The amount of history lost is immeasurable. It can been said that, the French came to trade, the English came to expand, Spanish came to convert, and the Mormons came to prove, this is certainly true throughout the early Americas. From early contact to the Pueblo Revolt of 1680, to The Ghost Dance and Wounded Knee massacre of the 1890s, America’s aboriginal people fought to recapture their beliefs, beliefs that have become an amalgam of traditional ways of life and Christianity.

[rd_kent]

93. "even people without a god have religion"...Really? I do not have a god and I have no religion.

Please explain....

[MichaelHarris]

98. Sorry

didn't mean it that way. I think it no longer matters if there is a God or not. If you believe religion was "created" to control and multiply then it has achieved it's goal. The Bible has its "rules" and most people don't kill, most people don't steal.....

Everyone is doing some "begating", we have generations of begating, 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren.

So now, even the most hard core atheist lives a "golden" life, and they even have babies! In a sense, religion has achieved it's purpose. The only other use for it today is to make us feel safe and good. I'll take a good chocolate malt, some need the good book.

[Marr]

117. Are you suggesting that social tabboos against murder and theft...

... and even the drive to procreate, are the results of religious teaching?

These are the natural values of a social animal. Religions reflect these values-- they didn't create them. There were laws against murder and theft long before Christianity was around. I suppose you might say religion has provided a kind of shorthand reference to them, but these ideas are pretty well baked into us anyway.

[butterfly77]

91. The good ole bible belt..

these are the people who want us to follow their values,bullshit..

[MichaelHarris]

94. What is making it

harder is this "rewriting" of "historical" cover-up that is going on. The early Catholic Church actually made the Bible forbidden to read for most people. The faith that is on a massive campaign of historical cover-up is the Mormons. Now you will see that someone will post an attack because I said that, they'll do the minority cry that they are being picked on, and they'll call me a Christian basher. They are not the minority religion. Truth be told Mormonism is the fastest growing faith in the world.

This is the religion that baptized Hitler, this is the religion that baptized those who died in the Holocaust. This is the religion that will baptize your loved ones into their faith, you will have no say so in it. Will we ever see Egyptian coins and inscriptions dug up in the mounds in and around the Caddo and Mississippian cultural sites? Will we find artifacts from the great battles the Book of Mormon tells us happened around those mounds? Will we realize the Garden of Eden was in Missouri? I doubt it. The reason that I mention these things is books are being written right now making these claims, thousands have already been written. The North, Central, and South American indigenous people are having their history and religion stolen from them every time a doorbell rings on a Saturday morning and you find two young men in whits shirts and ties. When the door opens a little "truth" dies every time.

When you purchase a history book from now on I implore you, research the author!

[butterfly77]

101. The same way the repugs..

have been writing books for all of these years,especially during the bush years trying to re-write history. The only problem is there is too much to cover up.

[Naturyl]

103. LDS is organized sex abuse of multiple kinds.

Yeah, that's what I said. Deal with it. Religion is not a harbor for criminal behavior.

Oh wait, yes it is, historically. But it shouldn't be. Yeah, there, I said that too.

[MichaelHarris]

104. Now they

rewrite history, it's been an amazing thing to see, facts change right before your eyes.

[Pamela Troy]

112. And you know these guys are guilty because...?

This story sounds waaaay too much like the unfounded cases that cropped up in the '80s and '90s. "Repressed memories," "ritual abuse".... Does the name "McMartin Preschool" ring a bell?

And I'm especially disturbed by your invoking these guys' religion, as though the fact that they are Mormons indicates they must be guilty.

[Pamela Troy]

118. Could one of the zealots in this thread please cite for me

the evidence in this case beyond the bare accusation?

And could one of you ...just one of you... stop for a moment and consider how -- if someone pointed a finger at you and declared you had molested them twenty years ago -- you would defend yourself.

And what it would do to your life to have your name plastered all over the media as a child molester -- even if you ended up being eventually cleared.

Is ANYONE here old enough to remember McMartin? The Wee Care case? Has ANYONE learned ANYTHING from those horrifying fiascos?

I don't know whether these guys are innocent or guilty, but I'm horrified by the dearth of evidence that's been presented so far -- and by the raw prejudice displayed in this thread. Saying, "They're (fill in religion here) so they MUST be guilty of the heinous crime they're accused of" is the worst kind of religious bigotry.