Before you generalize about the major

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/steinberg/1870633,CST-NWS-stein08.article

November 8, 2009

BY NEIL STEINBERG Sun-Times Columnist

See? This rampage by Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan who shot dead 13 people at Texas's Fort Hood Army base Thursday, confirms everything I've been saying all along -- psychiatrists are dangerous, unbalanced individuals; they go into the profession seeking the mental help that they themselves need . . .

Scratch that. Bad joke. But of course, Hasan does represent another suspect group in our society -- Virginians. Edgar Allan Poe was from Virginia. Shirley MacLaine, too. They're not stable people . . .

No one is suggesting that, maybe because the bias against psychiatrists is more of a mild suspicion, and general dislike of Virginians began to ebb after 1865.

But Hasan is also a Muslim, and people who would laugh off the psychiatrist/Virginia slurs view that aspect differently, because it scratches a shameful itch.

"We should seal the borders!" said a friend of mine, someone I generally respect when he isn't saying stuff like that.

"Tell me," I challenged him "how the actions of this Muslim American indicts all Muslim Americans?"

He sputtered, and I went on.

"If a lady murders her kids and says that Jesus told her to do it, does that indict all Christians? All ladies?"

I've said this before, but it bears repeating. There are two false logic threads that define racism. The details don't matter, you can plug in anything.

[vadawg]

1. i think you are missing the main thing about hasan, that he was an asshole

who killed people and probuably used his religion as an excuse.. He may have been born in Virginia, but it was NOVA not in real Virginia :)

[paulsby]

3. exactly. the virginia comparison is absurd

he proselytized his religion during medical conferences
he passed out copies of the koran prior to shooting people
he screamed "allahu akbar" before mowing down innocent soldiers.

none of those factors (and there are more, that's just a subset) suggest his home state had anything to do with his motivation

NUMEROUS facts support his twisted religious views as very relevant

i was going to admit that i lived in manassas for a while, vadawg, but that's northern virginia, so i won't

i also lived in DC. that's EXTREMEly northern virginia :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Which part of his religious views do you find twisted?

[paulsby]

39. the part

that made him think that his mowing down a bunch of innocent soldiers, who were also his fellow countrymen, was JUSTIFIED by his religion.

that's a twisted view of islam.

for pete's sake, he even posted comments on the internet lauding suicide bombers. and guess what? justication for same came from ... wait for it... his twisted version of islam

he yelled "allahu akbar" before mowing those soldiers down. if that isn't a strong piece of evidence his spree was religiously motivated, NOTHING is

[vadawg]

8. aarrrrghhhh manassas i hate that place, tacos tacos tacos is all i have to say...

the taco burger is the worst food on the planet.... but strangely i now feel like getting one...

[imdjh]

10. I dread Manassas, but taco burger sounds good.

[vadawg]

11. trust me it isnt, i foolsihly got a guy i was transporting to north carolina one

went right through him, was awful for both of us having to sit for 6 hours with the cruiser honking..... dude was a real cool guy though and seemed happy to be leaving VA lol

[paulsby]

42. this is also why mcdonald's is questionable

at any time except when you KNOW your shift is over.

you do not want to eat a double qtr lb'er with cheese, large fries, diet coke (of course lol) and two apple pies without absolute certainty that you will be within 10 ft of bathroom for the next two hours.

[vadawg]

46. rofl wouldnt be the first time lights and sirens have been used to the nearest bathroom

i got some of the funniest fecal stories imaginable, but my wife for some reason dosent let me tell them at family functions....

[paulsby]

47. i feel bad for the women

cops who have to take off the gunbelt and all that stuff just to friggin' pee.

when i worked surveillance, for instance, i would sometimes sit in a car for hours. i had a nice big gatorade bottle available if i needed to pee.

women don't have that luxury.

i generally try to make it a point to never sit down on a public toilet seat, but on rare occasions, it's necessary.

[vadawg]

50. trust me nothing is worse than a close contact observation post

you use the bottle to pee in but for other stuff you have a ziplock bag, its not nice for the guys in position with you especially after a taco burger.....

[paulsby]

48. i feel bad for the women

cops who have to take off the gunbelt and all that stuff just to friggin' pee.

when i worked surveillance, for instance, i would sometimes sit in a car for hours. i had a nice big gatorade bottle available if i needed to pee.

women don't have that luxury.

i generally try to make it a point to never sit down on a public toilet seat, but on rare occasions, it's necessary.

[zonkers]

15. Scientology is right... psychiatry kills.

[imdjh]

32. Scientology and EST both took the position that much of psychiatry was crap.

Because a great many people seek psychiatry for unhappiness and discontent based in a lack of self knowledge, understanding, organization, and coping skills. To medicate a person whose life can be dramatically improved through skills and techniques would be a misdiagnosis and abusive therapy.

[paulsby]

44. psychology is a "soft science"

and i say that as somebody who went to grad school for counseling psychology.

it has mediocre predictive value, for example, especially compared with hard science.

and then it IS true that many psychiatrists, just like other MD's, are tools (unwitting in some cases) of big pharma, and think the cure for everything is a pill.

i certainly believe psychiatry has value, of course. but it is an easy target.

i particularly enjoyed the south park ritalin/adhd episode.

[imdjh]

52. Scientology and EST also both recognized that there were people who would not be helped through ...

.... technique and group dynamics. I don't know if Scientology refuses to even try on such people, but I do recall reading that current Scientology doctrine recognizes that some 2% of the population is incapable of benefiting from the tech. EST simply had a disclaimer to the effect that if you were under the care of a medical doctor for psychiatric treatment, or if you thought you ought to be then you shouldn't take the EST training.

[Arctic Dave]

18. What about the Christian fundies in the Air Force Academy,

they proselytize their religion then kill people, are they assholes too?

After all, they were trying to give away bible and dropping bombs on them at the same time.

[paulsby]

45. what about them?

let's not jump down tangential bunny holes.

here's a critical difference.

they KILL people.

soldiers (and airmen) etc. often kill people

kill =/= murder

hasan MURDERED innocents. he also turned on his own countrymen, his own coworkers, etc. and at a time when they were most vulnerable.

if you want compare somebody who kills somebody in warfare, with somebody who starts mowing down unarmed coworkers, feel free.

[imdjh]

4. On WMNF this morning some stupid POS was working overtime to make excuses for him.

First she delivers the standard boiler plate about Islam not being relevant, despite its role in world events at the moment and in the past and in the future, and then three minutes later she's trying out an excuse for Hasan being warped out of shape because he's being deployed and will have to be in a war zone where "his people and culture" are the enemy. The icing on the cake was the show's host, Otis, correcting another caller who referred to Hasan as a Palestinian by specifying that Hasan is a Jordanian.

[TicketyBoo]

54. The caller must have

listened to the NPR piece on it

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120162816

which states that he is the son of Palestinian immigrants.

[imdjh]

59. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Arctic Dave]

17. If someone drops a bomb on people on Saturday then praises jesus on Sunday

is he an asshole too?

[paulsby]

2. what utter rubbish

it's not that hasan is ALSO a muslim

it's that

1) he was a devout muslim who had caused unease amongst his fellow psychiatrists by using a medical conference speech to proselytize the koran
2) he gave out copies of the koran to people immediately before engaging in his murderous spree
3) while mowing down innocent soldiers, he yelled out "allahu akbar"

this kind of ridiculous commentary ignores the datapoints (and that wasn't ALL the reasons, just SOME) that strongly support the idea that a significant factor in hasan's motivation was his twisted version of islam.

THOSE are the facts.

he did not constantly proselytize about virginia, pass out virginia leaflets before shooting people, and yell out "virginia is great" before mowing down innocent soldiers.

so, it's a totally specious comparison

hasan's faith is relevant because he MADE it relevant by giving us numerous points of evidence that make it darn clear that his religion, NOT his home state, was a major factor in his murderous rampage

hth

[imdjh]

7. The facts don't fit the world view of some readers.

[paulsby]

40. sadly enough, that is true

if the facts don't fit your viewpoint of the world, ignore the facts.

we see that so much. sadly, it is a disease symptomatic of no particular party or ideology.

[stray cat]

5. Hasan's actions speak for himself alone - but there does appear to be a political motive

just like the conservative who murdered the abortion doctor - he acted alone and the action was politically motivated. Can terrorism be an individual acting alone - absolutely!

[imdjh]

9. Did the guy who killed the abortion doctor have high ranking members of his religion ...

..... and foreign heads of state promoting the idea that he ought to go kill the abortion doctor? Did the Pope or the Archbishop of Canterbury cheer him on?

[Lost-in-FL]

12. Have you heard killers say that they did what they did cause "god told them so"?

What if he was really a psycho and he went "private pile" on all those soldiers? Maybe allah told him to do it.

[thepeopleunited]

13. I can't believe people are falling for this AGAIN.

Korans and flight manuals in the trunk? Passports miraculously preserved in the wreckage? Islamic epithets "overheard"?

When are we going to wise up?

[Taitertots]

14. No one indicts Christians because Jesus didn't kill people

Mohamed was a warlord and a murderer. It is hard to emulate Jesus and be a killer, it is impossible to emulate Mohamed without being a murderer.

Anyone can twist a religion into something violent, Islam doesn't need twisting.

[Arctic Dave]

16. You have obviously never read the bible or you wouldn't be saying that is doesn't glorify violence.

[KittyWampus]

19. the poster you are commenting on specifically sited Jesus and his work and the Gospels

[Arctic Dave]

21. So we are talking ala cart religion?

Other wise known as cherry picking.

[Taitertots]

23. I'm not Christian so it is not cherry picking

I'm stating that Jesus didn't kill people or lead an army that killed people. If you emulate Jesus you walk to certain death instead of fighting. If you emulate Muhammad then you create an army and murder people until they believe you are talking to god.

[Arctic Dave]

25. Jesus not have and Muhammad may have but both religions are violent.

If you want to believe otherwise, then you are cherry picking.

[Taitertots]

26. People from both religions are violent

Christianity is violent in spite of the teachings of Jesus. Islam is violent BECAUSE the teachings of Muhammad.

Both are wrong and their supporters have been violent.

[Taitertots]

22. You obviously never read what I posted because I never said anything

remotely close to that. Where in the bible did Jesus kill anyone?

When did Jesus kill people?
Muhammad was a military leader.

[Arctic Dave]

24. So you want to view religion ala cart?

Both of the books are violent. If you want to believe them at all. But thats a totally different thing altogether.

[Taitertots]

27. No, but I would prefer to look at the context of the violence

There is a huge difference between discussing violence (bible) and actively committing acts of violence (islam). Muhammad was leading an army and murdering people because they didn't accept that he could speak to god. People in the bible were committing violent acts, but Jesus wasn't actively engaged in them or directly supporting them.

[Arctic Dave]

30. But God was. Isn't that what both books are about.

Jesus and Muhammad are just bit actors.

[Taitertots]

33. Not at all

You can directly follow the teaching of and emulate Jesus while not being violent. You can not follow the teaching and lifestyle of Muhammad without violence.

Are you really going to make the claim that Mohammad and Jesus are only bit actors in Islam and Christianity? They are god in human form, the messiah, the only way to heaven.

"But God was"
Violent, you mean people other than Jesus were violent in the bible. People doing violent things both outside Jesus's control and against his wishes.

[Arctic Dave]

34. Destroying cities and drowning people are some of the things God did to people he didn't like.

Sounds very violent to me. Not to mention plagues, killing first born and such.

[Taitertots]

43. You mean stuff that happened in the old testament

[Lost-in-FL]

20. "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

-Jesus

Matthew 10:34

[imdjh]

29. The poster you are responding to was very clear in his comparison.

He was comparing the two characters. So was he wrong? No. He wasn't wrong.

[geek_sabre]

31. You can take any line out of the bible and make it agree with whatever you want

But its not accurate. It is never wise to quote a single line from the bible. Here it is in context:

“Do not think that I come to bring the peace upon earth: I came not to send peace but the sword. For I come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and the man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He, who loves father or mother more than Me, is not worthy of Me; and he, who loves son or daughter more than Me, is not worthy of Me. And he, who does not take up his cross and follow Me, is not worthy of Me”

This statement means not that Jesus intended to bring violence, condoned violence, or anything of the sort. Rather, violence (more accurately, division) was a natural consequence of establishing His kingdom. The sword is a symbol for the word of God. Even the most sacred blood bonds of family would face hatred and separation between believers and unbelievers. He is offering internal peace.

[Lost-in-FL]

36. Oh yeah... that made a lot more sense.

:eyes:

Dysfunctional families are part of god's plan. Nice little book humans created.

But then, this is not about discussing the bible but about pointing out that religion (and any human system) is inherently violent.

[geek_sabre]

37. of course, anything human is inherently violent

I'm objecting to your premise that the Bible in particular promotes violence in the same way the Qu'ran does.

[Lost-in-FL]

38. I get it. There are various ways to promote violence and the bible's way is the correct.

:eyes:

[imdjh]

28. good one

[proteus_lives]

35. Fuck that mass-murdering piece of shit.

Did he do it because he's a fundie muslim? Put a needle in his arm.

Did he do it because he went postal? Put a needle in his arm.


Are all muslims fundies? No. But guess what fundamentalist Islam is dangerous and needs to be watched for. I think it's appropriate in this case to make sure.

[vadawg]

41. dosent the military still execute by rope, or do they do firing squad

i just hope they get the guy well enough so they can give him what he needs...

[proteus_lives]

49. Firing squad would be appropriate.

I may be wrong but if he was on active duty, it may affect the process as well. Has the US army executed anyone since WWII?

[bikingaz]

51. what happens if they find him insane?

would he still be executed? Manson was insane and he did not get the death penalty.

[TicketyBoo]

55. Charles Manson

was sentenced to death, but the California Supreme Court did away with the death penalty for a time, and Manson's sentence was reduced to a life term at that point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson

[proteus_lives]

56. Insane?

I doubt he was but if they do, I'd imagine he'd still be imprisoned for life.

[vadawg]

53. also lets not call him the major, lets call him a murderer or terrorist or whatever

lets not give him the respect of his rank....

[The Straight Story]

57. "Tell me how the action of a Christian indicts them all?" It does here at times it seems

double standard? :shrug:

[Number23]

58. Kicked and rec'd. Have no idea what all of the mess in this thread is about. Don't care

Good article. Thanks for posting.