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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 11:55 AM
Original message
Recipe for voter backlash:
Edited on Sun Nov-08-09 11:56 AM by Faryn Balyncd





1. Pass a fundamentally flawed law with plans to "fix it" incrementally.


2. Mandate that all Americans purchase a product from a cartel.


3. Use the power of the government to enforce the cartel's monopoly rather than allow all Americans to buy-in to Medicare.


4. Call a plan designed to enable insurance companies to dump the most expensive 3-5% of patients a "public option".


5. For the 95% or so excluded from the "public option", don't give them access to a system based upon transparent and non-discriminatory provider pricing (such as Medicare, Medicare +5%, Medicare +20%, or, in fact, ANY consistent, transparent provider pricing system), but instead leave the rates charged to the captive, mandated-to-purchase citizens up to "the market", whose "invisible hand" we know to work for the good of all. :sarcasm:


6. While we're at it, for even the 3-5% consigned to the "public" option, don't allow their prices, either, to be based on Medicare provider rates (or Medicare +5%, etc), but demand that this small quasi-"public" entity, controlling a small fraction of the market that many providers would rather not serve all, negotiate rates from scratch, independent of Medicare.


7. Allow insurance companies a few years to inflate their rates even before the program starts. (Certainly we don't need government controls on prices or premiums: Now that the insurance companies have a mandate and don't need to spend their time peddling their product, the "market", and their sense of civic responsibility, will allow them to allocate all their time & resources to lowering prices. Isn't that how "free" markets work? :sarcasm: )


8. Call a corporate bailout for one of our most predatory industries "healthcare reform".


9. Label those that oppose such a plan: "purist, non-pragmatic, whining Kucinichians".


10. Since the people understand and support "Medicare for All", let then think that that's what we're passing, that we're bringing them the option to buy in to a fair and more efficient system similar to Medicare.


11. Allow the "public" to find out the truth, and the cost, slowly over time.


12. To make sure our "grateful" constituencies stay on board, somewhere in the 2000 pages of a backroom-written bill, subject those who cannot pay (whatever eventual premiums they are "offered") jail time.


13. Stir, bake, allow to rise until the next election.






:kick:





(Those Republicans sure were stupid not to be on the "right side of history", weren't they?)





:kick:

















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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. K & R
for the truth.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. For all my bitching, I will say one good thing about this bill's passage:
Edited on Sun Nov-08-09 12:07 PM by FlyingSquirrel
Although I think it will kill momentum for real reform in the short term, at least the Republicans will no longer be able to use the rallying cry of "Socialism!" because it will be clear that it didn't happen. As a result, if we can keep a majority in both houses, we should be able to chip away further at the issue - because the resistance will have lessened. You can only hold so many Tea-bag rallies, after all.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. The tea baggers are the allies of those who wanted to pass this bill. It made it hard to oppose this
bill on legitimate reasons.

It's classic triangulation. It's what Clinton did.

Because the right wing loonies were attacking Clinton for a bunch of made up stuff, we couldn't hold Clinton accountable for behaving like a Republican much of the time.

Classic triangulation.

This bill will be far worse in the long run, so I have to disagree with you on that point, FS. We won't chip away on this anymore than we chipped away on NAFTA.

This is nothing short than the beginning of the privatization of heath care. They will leave the unprofitable for the tax payers to support, and the profitable will be subsidized for the corporations to fleece for profit.

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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Just tell me where you would get the votes for single payer? They weren't there
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. See, that's where this thing called "leadership" comes in.
Politics is war and you have to fight to get things done. Starting the process under a flag of surrender guarantees that you will lose.

So now we have bailed out the the entire financial sector (banks, Wall Street casinos, and the insurance industry) simultaneously bankrupting ourselves as we surrender all of the resources we will need to survive the coming storms.

Fucking brilliant. :eyes:


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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. You can have all the leadership in the world, and the blue dogs and republicans would have nothing
to do with it

The only way to accomplish the change you are saying is to start winning elections with progressives, especially in the purple and red states

That will take a long time

As for your argument involving the financial sector, they had to be bailed out, or it would have been far worse. That we are able to discuss that, shows that a complete collapse was averted. However, the problem was, not that they were bailed out, but that they weren't broken up, the regulation taken out during the eighties wasn't put back in, and there was no accountability on what the funds used to bail them out would be used for

Anyway, that is my view
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. The republiks are, or would be id the Democrats would quit saving them, irrelevant and
this myth of "conservative America" exists because we allow it. Everything that has been done to us is because we allowed it and the results of our inaction, disinterest, and plain old pig-ignorance, will ring down through the years.

Your opinion that "they had to be bailed out" is simply not true. When they first crashed the economy, the plans to fix the systemic problems were there, they were just hidden and ignored. Any way you slice it, this was simply a bald-faced capitulation, but that's another thread.


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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. Thank you for your usual common sense.
Edited on Sun Nov-08-09 06:16 PM by truedelphi
Too many here would, as another DU'er put it, rather endure a poke in the eye from a stick, than a stake in the heart. Without ever thinking about how to go about having "Real Change."
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
117. Nice post . . . love Kucinich . .. well, corporate-press has been lying to the public
for generations about "conservative America" and many still don't realize it -
Many still watch it --

But we are allowing this "god" crap to go on and on -- with taxpayer money still
being tossed into Church coffers!! And women still being betrayed by a now "god"
talk Democratic Party.

Not only should capitalism not be bailed out -- it should be re-regulated up to it's
eyeballs!!!

:)
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Nonsense..
... LBJ passed sweeping civil rights legislation with a congress probably even more opposed to it that the current is to health care reform.

Leadership DOES matter, Obama is simply unwilling to take a tough stand on anything as far as I can tell.

And BTW, it is not the health care crap that is going to sink Obama, his ham-handed banker bailout are what is really going to sink him in 2012.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Word. n/t
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #34
61. In additon, Obama had the advantage of the majority of the people
wanting a public option. And, a lot of people who heard "public option" and don't pay as much attention as we do, thought it meant single payer and supported that.

Obama had the public behind him and majorities in both Houses and he chose to sell us out to the insurance industry. He refused to even discuss real reform while inviting pharma and insurance executives to the White House to cut deals.

If he loses in 2012 he'll have only himself to blame.


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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. Obama has already said "The American people will decide if I RUN in 2012"
not "If I'm re-elected in 2012." I get the strong feeling that he's cool with the idea of being a one term President.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #65
71. Obama has said a lot of things
When he was a state senator he said he supported single payer; when he was a presidential candidate he opposed mandated coverage.

Don't believe everything he says.

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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #71
104. Don't believe everything he says? I don't believe anything he says.
x(
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #61
68. So true. So sad.
I am so mad at him lately, when I hear his voice, I turn off the radio/tv. I'm done with the speeches and the excuses.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #68
105. That's where I am too and I thought I wouldn't be doing anymore of that after the election.
I thought after george was gone, I wouldn't have to turn off the tv when the president came on. Oh well. :shrug:
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appal_jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #34
100. +1 n/t
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
87. The filthy rich were the only ones that were bailed out!!! How can you not see this a year later
with 17.5% unemployment, a jobless recovery that equals SIX PEOPLE FOR EVERY JOB and a shitload of foreclosures?! :wtf:
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
89. For less than $11 Trillion Obama could have wiped out every mortgage and every credit card debt
in the nation for less than the $23 trillion they spent to bailout the banks/Wall Street/insurance corporations.

So, why did they have to spend twice as much to bail out just the financial corporations again?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
116. You're arguing that capitalism "has to be bailed out" . . .????
You're arguing "too big to fail" . . . ????

If you believe either of those two things then your views on health care are

doubly nullified.

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
64. Yep. BushCo and Reagan rammed plenty of things through when Dems
controlled the House and Senate. Their ideas sucked but they still got the things they wanted done-and our side pitched in to help when they were told to.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. Exactly, but we're supposed to buy this "can't be done" bullshit time after time?
If I have an employee that, not only fails to do the job, but refuses to learn, I'd fire him.

How is it that we're supposed to not only keep paying for these blood-suckers, but we're now supposed to accept their ever-decreasing performance as inevitable?


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
118. Can't say that often enough.... Republicans win when they lose ... Dems lose when they win or lose!!
:)
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Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
80. You got that right
Ny health insurance just went from $14,500 to 17,800 or about 30% of my groaa. They are going to gouge us for all they can now that they know congress is bought and paid for. Kucinich and Adler voted against this POS. 2 out of 250. What a fucking we got.
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Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
81. You got that right
My health insurance just went from $14,500 to 17,800 or about 30% of my groaa. They are going to gouge us for all they can now that they know congress is bought and paid for. Kucinich and Adler voted against this POS. 2 out of 250. What a fucking we got.
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TheEuclideanOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
102. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb...
voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" - Benjamin Franklin


- I love your Benjamin Franklin quote in your tagline :)
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #102
145. Thanks, I think it sums up the idea they were going for. n/t
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Fuck single payer, how about a public option that functions? Or just out law pre=existing conditions
change medicaid laws so people with a pre-existing condition can get on.


I mean the arguments all the way along this "reform" season are ludicrous, over and over they make no sense. So that should tell you right off that we are being scammed.

Here's the deal. The public option was an illusion from the start. There never was any serious intent by anybody, from the house leadership, to the Senate to the White house to get a public option. They needed a way to separate people from a single payer system that the public all wanted. So they pretended to go for the public option.

See, when Rahm wants to pass NAFTA or he wants to make sure no Democrat runs on ending the war, he plays hard ball and tells them no money, we will primary you and bury you. And the votes show up.

When they claim to support the public option, it's Oh we don';t have the votes, We really wish we did.

And you fall for it. Every time. let me clue you in. They lie.

Daschle, Obama's co chair of his campaign, has made multi-millions in the last few years representing insurance companies. He's inside. He's friends. He derives lots of power from his relationships. He's not interested in public option, and neither is the president. Or we would have had a public option.

You think Obama wants to pass legislation to keep Tom Daschle honest?

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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Oh? How many Senators and Reps do we have? And, don't we have the White House?
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. We'll never know, will we?
Because single payer was taken off the table from the get-go. Not even considered. Not even discussed openly. Just pushed to the side.

First rule of negotiating is to start with everything you want, then move toward compromise.

This conflicts with the Democratic Party method of negotiation, which seems to be to start from a position of compromising just about everything you want away before the fight even begins, and then give away just about everything else meaningful in the process.

There are two major problems with this approach. First is that you get a shitty bill as the end-product. Second, and perhaps more important in the long run, is that you alienate your core constituencies, the ones that get involved in campaigns and knock on doors. I doubt that this health care bill, IF it passes the Senate and conference, will do much to inspire people to get out there for Democrats in 2010 and 2012.

Much like NAFTA caused unions to sit on their hands in 1994.
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Duende azul Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
39. How do you know since nobody voted on it? It was not on the table.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
45. That depends on who Congress cared more about
the people, or the corporations. The people support Medicare for All. When you want to pass a bill, you explain it to the American people. The Dems never did that.

Almost everyone I know, both Dem and Republican and Independent has a health care horror story, even when they are covered. Not one is against Medicare, no matter what theri party affiliation.

People have to accept the fact the reason why 'the votes were not there' was because Dems support keeping the predatory corporations in business, over the needs of the people.

They got the votes when they wanted them, didn't they? Some Dems who ended up voting for this bill have said they know it is not a great bill but hope 'it will be fixed in the Senate'. Yet, the leadership was able to get those reluctant votes, weren't they?

Only one Republican voted for this. What makes you think that Dems didn't have enough votes without Republicans, to pass a far less expensive, far more efficient bill like Medicare for All, without Republican votes? Didn't they just do that, only for the wrong bill? That's what being in the majority means. You get to pass the bill you were elected to pass, that is if you want to.

I bet even some Republicans would not have dared to vote against a 'Medicare for All' bill because the truth is many ordinary Republicans once they understood it, would have wanted them to do so. People were lied to about Single Payer and the Dems did nothing to correct those lies. I have done so in real life, and convinced many people who are Republicans, that it is not what Fox News has told them it is. It's not that hard to do.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #45
59. +1 nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
119. In this health care ... they are cementing corporate "for profit" health care industry in place!!
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
58. Link? Americans overwhelmingly support the idea of single payer when they
understand the concept. Pressure from constituents would have passed it-but that's why the Dems didn't offer it; because they knew it had a high probability of being very popular. Can't piss off the moneymen with the insurance cartels now, can we?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
115. The "votes" are in the population . . . which the Democrats damn well know -- !!!
They are failing to represent the needs of the public --

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
133. that inconvenient fact is always omitted.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. If that happens
I will be John Q. Canadian Citizen
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placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. But Obama PROMISED to revisit NAFTA
was it all a lie?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
131. I'm sure he meant to when he said it. but then, there was finding the right dog,
and all that garden stuff, the egg role, and the time just flew.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. And, that's the "truth" behind your comment. "If" we can hold onto both Houses..........
........I rather doubt it. First, the "reform" doesn't start right away, so the Republicans can chip away at that, secondly and probably most important is when the population sees what a fuck job it is the Dems will be totally fucked.
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FlyingSquirrel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
43. They will be, because we'll just stay home.
And that, of course, is irrational behavior that fucks us even more.

Dude, what if Nader was right?
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Yep. And, Nader was right more times than not. Unlike a lot here...........
............I always had the highest respect for Nader and thought him as one of the most honest persons in my lifetime. Oh, and he didn't win the presidency for W either.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
120. Agree . . . what the Democrats have always liked least about Nader is his telling TRUTH . . .
which is inconvenient for them!!
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. In the macro aspect, he was clearly right
But in the micro aspect, he was comparing Gore to the minor Bush. That was just silly.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
106. If he wasn't right in 2000, he certainly IS right now.
x(
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
99. The tea baggers will eventually die off. I don't see a whole lot of young voter enthusiasm for them.
How many young people do you see at those rallies? And, yuk, yuk how many minorities? Real people are not teabaggers...
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's health care loan sharking is what it is. It's a short term fix and a long term nightmare.
Just like the loan sharks cash, it solves problems in the short run.


But in the long run, it's just a rip off.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. It provides a foundation that can be remedied. We didn't have the votes for the ideal bill
and it gives us something to work with and improve

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Like NAFTA? You are dreaming my friend. It institututionalizes the
health insurance cartels and guarantees they will be running things forever.

Just like the oil industry dictates our foreign policy, our domestic policy will now be under the thumb of the health care cartel.


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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. This isn't like NAFTA in my view, because it doesn't involve international treaties
It only involves what goes on inside our country, and that can be changed by WE THE PEOPLE, much easier then issues that involve other countries






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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. That never stopped us before. What stops us is the powers that be aren't going to change NAFTA
Edited on Sun Nov-08-09 12:41 PM by John Q. Citizen
because it makes them a bundle and if it destroys the middle class, that's fucking tough.


You don't get it. These people are the mafia. They don't care if you die. That's why institutionalizing people who will deny covered care to somebodies mom and she dies, to make a buck, shouldn't be put in control of our health care system.

You want to make a law that people are forced to buy insurance from the mafia. No way. Wake up before it's too late. Play time is almost over buddy.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. You may be right, but it is all we have now, and that is what we have to work with
I prefer to have something than nothing

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Why do you suppose this is what you have? It's all you were ever going to be allowed to get, my
friend.

The insurance companies aren't hoping thing will get better. They are making certain that things will get better. And they have you helping them.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. You are naive my friend.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
41. If we didn't have the votes for the IDEAL bill, then we sure as hell aren't going to have them
after we Dems take some losses in 2010. Given the way our Democratic Party is lurching toward center, then back to the right, then back to the center, then dog knows where, I and a lot of other Democrats are going to be looking elsewhere for leadership.

In the last ('08) election, you saw the strongest Democratic turnout in years. Anyone who thinks there will be a repeat in 2010 is loony. 2012 remains open to speculation.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
121. It's a foundation built on corporate cartels. . . . which we're supposed to be knocking over . .. !!
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. The nightmare is that the backlash will reward
the corporate sell-outs who made it.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
101. The backlash will put Congress back in the control of the repukes. Way
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 10:48 AM by LibDemAlways
to go Dems. There's so little difference between them nowadays, it's practically a moot point. They're all (with few exceptions) corporate owned anyway.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. and when would we get those votes for the points you mention? Not today we won't
So you are implying that it is better to leave the current system as is, if you cannot have those "minimum" requirements

You are implying that this bill will insure our defeat. I believe doing nothing will insure our defeat

but more than winning elections, this bill will save lives. It is better than what we have currently, and it can be built upon

The same arguments were applied to social security and medicare. We wouldn't have those today if we had waited for the "ideal" bill

but the most important point is that we didn't have the VOTES for the "ideal" bill. You do realize that don't you?

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. A loan shark loan saves lives, Bombing Saddam saved lives. But at what cost?
This bill will kill far more people in the long run than killing it and demanding real reform.

A real public option for instance would be totally acceptable. Even better would be a single payer system.

How about just outlawing selling private insurance based on pre-existing conditions?

How about just putting people with pre existing conditions on to Medicare?


There are so many positive and acceptable things that can be done. But this bill is just wrong for a lot of reasons that have nothing to do with teabaggers or with re-election considerations.


WEhat I'm saying is the bad parts of this bill are bad enough that they over whelm the good parts. Just like invading Iraq. Or going to the load shark to pay for your wifes operation. When they end up killing you and your wife a month latter because you didn't pay them back.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. Back in the day when Soc. Security and Medicare came about
The friggin' lobbyists did not own Congress. Or the Executive Office.

So back in those days, you could expect incremental changes that would improve legislation. Right now, that notion has as much possiblity as an icecube in Hell.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. And while we're discussing incremental improvements
Edited on Sun Nov-08-09 08:07 PM by juno jones
Why don't we just dust medcicare off and improve THAT? Why is medicare, this wonderful program that has been gradually improved over the years suddenly cast in quick setting redi-mix concrete?...well why aren't we improving that now, instead of re-inventing the wheel? WHY? Because the goddamn insurance co's are 'too big to fail' and have billions of dollars at their disposal to warp the fabric of our democracy. That's why.

This bill is a chimera of laundry lists, it is an incohesive monster that will harm more people than it helps. I could be wrong, I often am, but I remember my dissappointment in Clinton's administration for NAFTA and Welfare deform, and I have the same nasty feeling now as I had then.

BOHICA is a wonderful modifying adjective for this angst.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #47
85. The only silver lining that came about with this bill is that
Some folks here at DU have used the BOHICA expression so much I actually went to google and found out what it means.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #85
97. I got it from Nadinbrezinski
Wonderful term, ain't it?
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #47
91. "warp the fabric of our democracy"
I like that. It describes the current state of affairs very well. Corporate money is destroying this country and we never hear a word about it on the M$M.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #91
132. Last year, during the height of election fever, a caller into C Span
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 03:30 PM by truedelphi
Started talking very excitedly and in a rather quick type of speech about how there was not that much difference between the two parties - both embraced NAFA, for instance. Both allowed for endless wars that are mostly about profits. And on and on.

Never have I seen Brian Lamb so happy to get rid of a caller. The last thing the media needs is for someone to expose the fact that most Americans do not even vote - it is just a scam (except maybe for local elections.)

The media rake in huge amounts of money from both parties during the election cycles. If we were to do something intelligent and just ask that our Reps and Senators have their names drawn out of a hat, we might be better off. But then the media would be out all that dough!
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #132
135. I'm not so sure about our current
Reps and Senators but a random selection of simple Americans would result in an improvement. At least until they were corrupt up to their ears. :toast:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #135
138. Toast accepted. Bottoms up.
I swear this HC"R" bill is turning me into a lush.

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #138
146. I know what you mean. nt
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #36
90. Another good point by truedelphi.
Thank you.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. It's the right's fault. They are the ones defending the industry.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Right, like Tom Daschle.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Daschle is no longer an elected representatives. The only power we have is over who we
elect
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. We elected Daschle's close friend. Obama wanted him to run HHS. You know the
Edited on Sun Nov-08-09 01:31 PM by John Q. Citizen
cabinet Dept. Charged with overseeing the insurance companies and keeping them honest.

Fortunately, Daschle knew he could get away without paying his taxes. While it didn't land him in jail, it soured his opportunity to keep his friends and benefactors in the insurance industry honest.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
51. I know /nt
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-10-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
147. I have not followed this part of things. Who is the friend and
What department is he running? WIll they be "The Secretary" who is invoked in every other page of the 1,900 page Health Care Reform Bill?

Scary times ahead for us. We really truly needed real change, not Corporate Advancement.

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optimator Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. I'm willing to go to jail to oppose fascism
I will gladly pay taxes to pay for everyone's health care , but not to a fucking corporate middle man (insurance) and not by force.
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atomicweeder Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
25. Your Health Care Plan Just Got Taxed
If you have a Flexible Spending Account health care plan (and thousands of your private and government employees have them), you just got taxed.

Under current law, if your employer puts $10,000 into an FSA to provide health care insurance, it's tax free.

Under HR 3962, Section 532, only the first $2,500 is tax free. You'll now have to pay Federal, and possibly state and local taxes on the other $7,500.

You keep your doctor! You keep your plan! You pay an extra $2,000 in taxes!
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. There won't be a backlash, because everybody will swallow it...
And they will swallow it, because Obama will defend it, and Obama can give good speeches and he has charisma, so why would people doubt his words? He will hail this as a success, the media (everything non-Fox) will enable him, and people will buy it en masse.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. Yes, the public will swallow it UNTIL they get hammered with the skyrocketing premiums which this..


....plan makes inevitable.












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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #52
141. And when that happens, what will the people do?
Nothing. Obama will promise improvements, and he will get re-elected handsomely. Or the Republicans will make political gain out of it.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. Many, many of us are doubting him now.
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StreetKnowledge Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #54
67. Forget Doubting.
I am a Dual Citizen and do vote. And I am NOT gonna vote for Obama in 2012. The last ten months have taught me that anybody who can get to the White House will be sucking the dicks of corporate America, and as such no real progressives will get anything resembling power.

In two decades, when this question comes up again - only by the economy will be in much worse shape than now, because by then inflation will making every American poorer - the result will be the same. It'll be the same until the lobbyists get shown the door and their rent boys follow them out. But with both parties and the mainstream media well and truly contaminated by this disease, it's at the point where I think a lot of American progressives need to do what I did.

Move to Canada.

Because here, you know, the views of the public are actually relevant in politics, even when Canada's government head is a douchebag.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #54
142. Many in the leftwing blogosphere. It doesn't represent the majority of voters.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #29
108. I DOUBT his word! Too bad more don't.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
30. And as a Kick in the Teeth, Throw in Blatantly Uncostitutional Language
concerning legal medical procedure to discriminate against fertile women.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Yes is it not funny how many here have overlooked the worst aspect of this
Health Care "Reform" Act?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
70. Health Care "reform", bank "reform", welfare "reform", credit "reform", bankruptcy "reform",
education "reform", I think there just might be a pattern emerging here.


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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #70
86. Do ya think?
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 02:42 AM by truedelphi
The very conservative Senators that are serving in Baucus' committee were talking on C Span about a month back, saying how much Medicare needs "reform"

So it does seem that "reform" is synonymous with making a product worse for us and better for the Big Industries.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #86
111. Don't forget Social Security 'reform'. They haven't. Next up!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
122. It's patriarchal, religious, and corporate-friendly . . . but not MEDICARE FOR ALL . . .
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placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
32. nexr year and in '12, I will turn out for sure
Edited on Sun Nov-08-09 06:00 PM by placton
for Dem primaries only - general election, specially if Obama gets renominated? Nawwww - just stay home with my tea.
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nightrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
40. knr! Thanks! And it's only going to get worse in the Senate....
At least in the bill I think Medicare's list of approved reimbursable practitioners was increased. That's been a long time in coming... Small gains for such an awful price!

I think Dems are going to have to learn this one the hard way. If we could place ourselves a few years down the road, I can imagine that we'll regret that Obama wasn't a promoter of single payer. I'm going to watch "Groundhog Day" tonight in honor of the vote yesterday. I haven't seen it yet, but I hear it's about having to repeat an experience over and over again until getting the learning from it. It's available on Netflix streaming if others are interested.
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. Bam! Home run post. Well said.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
44. Rec. It makes me very sad that I have to admit that you are right, FarynBalanced.
When the talk of healthcare reform started I was filled with optimism that our new President and our Democratic Congress were going to make some historic changes based on the mandate the voters gave them. Then the Single Payer advocates were systematically shut out BY THE WHITE HOUSE AND DEMOCRATIC LEADERS. At that moment the reality came crashing down. When Speaker Pelosi started showing some signs of having undergone a secret spinal transplant I began to have hope again. Then we discovered that Max Baucus was the one who had gelded Harry Reid and had his nads transplanted. Watching the Senate systematically and collegially eviscerate the healthcare reform bill in the name of BIPARTISANSHIP was nauseating and incredibly demoralizing.

Still, I and many others printed our signs and stood in the rain outside our Senators' offices, and made the calls and sent the emails, and urged our friends to do the same. Slowly the tide appeared to be turning once again toward a possible robust Public Option. Then we found out that Our President was really not so hot on even having a Public Option that provided REAL competition. What he wanted was a Public Option that MIGHT get ONE Republican Senator's vote. And he was willing to allow the Senate to water it down to the point that it was a mere whimper of a healthcare reform bill. After that revelation, I admit that I pretty much figured we were fucked. Turns out we were.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the FINAL VERSION of healthcare reform capitulation turns out to be.

Meanwhile, anyone care to speculate on the odds of REAL reform of the Financial Industries? How about some serious legislation dealing with Climate Change? And does leaving only 60,000 U.S. troops in Iraq after 2011 REALLY mean we have "withdrawn"?

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #44
62. The odds? the odds are heavily against us
it's clear that our Dems, like the repugs, are wholly owned by big corporate interests. Destroying our environment and killing life on earth makes a few fat cats richer, so we'll keep doing it. Sacrificing American service men and women and murdering innocents abroad makes a few corporate fat cats richer, so we'll keep doing that as well. Financial Industries? They see those as the true seat of American power, so everything will be sacrificed to keep those corrupt fat cats afloat. The house always wins.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #62
75. Very depressing, isn't it???
How are all your furbabies doing?
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #44
98. "REAL reform of the Financial Industries" will never happen. Just as
"REAL reform of healthcare" will never happen - unless the people wise up and throw the entire Congress save for a few out on their collective asses and put people in there who aren't owned by corporations whose interests are diametrically opposed to anything and everything that would benefit an ordinary person. It wasn't that long ago that banks were paying decent interest on savings while charging nominal interest rates on credit cards. Now the fucking interest they are grudgingly paying the depositor is infinitesimal while the rates they are charging should have them all thrown in jail for usury.

It's a goddamn crime against the American people, and there isn't anything we can do about it except collectively wake up and clean house. And I don't see that happening any time soon.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
46. Let's not be naive:
it will be extremely difficult to get real healthcare reform. Political power and big money are joined at the hip. Politics, not problem-solving, dominates the legislative process. Genuinely good ideas that threaten the status quo never even get a real hearing. I do think that a President that is popular enough potentially can push good stuff through, but it ain't easy.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I think you are right.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #46
74. Lyndon Johnson got Medicare thru...He was very shrewd, if not popular.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #46
123. Personally, I don't think we're blasting Congress sufficiently yet -- let's get at it !!!! MORE!!!!
In fact, are we still waiting for the Democratic Party to call its members out to campaign

for MEDICARE FOR ALL?

Where are the buttons --

Are the Dems waiting until the streets are clear of teabaggers????

Where are the women's groups ?

Where are the labor groups out in the streets?

Hellooooo . . . . ????

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zoff Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
49. To democratic politicians reading this ...
feel free to interpret "voter backlash." Some are voting in primaries only, some are staying home. Remember VA and NJ and the good ole days of repuglican majority? Or maybe that really doesn't bother you?
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #49
72. My guess is it doesn't really bother them.
When they'll get shown the door, there's always those opened corporate doors they'll be offered to choose from...

Apart from a very small minority of them, like Grayson, Kucinich, and a tiny few others, the status quo wins them all.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #49
112. It's clear that it really doesn't bother them. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #112
124. It's clear we're not doing enough . . . who's in the streets??? Teabaggers not Dems . . .
Are we still waiting for the Democratic Party to call us out to campaign for

MEDICARE FOR ALL?

Where are the women's groups -- labor unions?

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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
53. K&R
Played again. They must think we're stupid.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
56. That and a high unemployment rate due to a "puny" stimulus plan ought to do it!

We need more bi-partisanship and coddling of conservative Democrats!

That's the ticket!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
57. K&R
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
60. k*r First rate, truly n/t
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liberal_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
63. this whole thing certainly has me thinking
The next election cycle will be ripe for someone who makes campaign reform their top priority. The problem is who can you trust. Almost ALL of the politicians have been bought off, so who can we trust to do this? Campaign reform might just be the biggest thing we could ever pull off. Way bigger than healthcare because we will never pass real healthcare reform without campaign reform.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #63
92. You might have something here.
Campaign finance reform, REAL campaign finance reform, could become a powerful issue, even with the idiot Republicans.

Things have become so bad that ALL Americans could might see value in removing the influence of money from the political process.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
66. Stir, bake, allow to rise . nm
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
73. Excellent analysis. If things continue like this, we will definitely lose the midterm elections.
and so much for any further "changes" that President Obama may have in mind....and that includes any "improvements" to that piece of crap "Health Care Reform" bill that the house juwt passed.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. If the unemployment situation doesn't improve by next November, the
Dems can kiss a bunch of seats goodbye. Add in the gift to the insurance companies POS "health care reform" bills being bandied about, all of which will further enrich the insurance companies at the expense of the already barely hanging on consumer - and you've got a recipe for election disaster.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #78
125. We need Democrats to work on jobs and trade protection for American jobs . . .
ending the trade agreements -
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #125
134. The repuke who "represents" my district is
already writing editorial pieces for the local rag harping on how crappy the job picture is. Although I am well aware that Bush got us into this mess, all that the majority of voters know is that it got even worse under Obama and the Dems. Jobs has to be #1 priority. No one can afford health care if they are unemployed.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #134
137. Don't know where you are, but we had an article in the town paper the other day . . .
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 05:37 PM by defendandprotect
which you would think was written by Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck- re health care!
Started something like the health care backers were shamelessly quoting Chairman Mao!!???
Unbelievable!!
It's a town newspaper, but the bias just reeks.

We're in Central NJ and we also have the Star Ledger rag --
Most of the newspapers now are all right wing -- I don't even get the NY Times anymore
since they took on Karl Rove.


PS: Oddly enough, on one of the talk shows the other day one of the guests was commenting
-- maybe Olberman? -- that only 20% of the public identifies as Repug now!!!???
Hope I heard that right!!!



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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. I'm in a repuke-leaning county in Southern Cal just north of
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 08:42 PM by LibDemAlways
LA. I cancelled the LA Times years ago when they ran a piece praising Laura Bush on the same page as another article condemning Hillary Clinton. Most everybody reads the local throwaway, and that's where my useless rightwing Congressman publishes his comments.

I have an aunt who lives in central New Jersey. She spends all day listening to Rush and Hannity and is convinced Obama is a communist. If she gets a paper, it's probably the Star Ledger. I told my mother the next time she talks to her sister, she ought to ask her if she's turned in her Medicare and Social Security cards and refused her benefits since those are both evil "socialist" programs. LOL
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. And most of all, don't use the library!!!
Well, hope you're at least enjoying the weather there -- !!

:) :)
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ProleNoMore Donating Member (316 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
76. Well Said - The Stupefaction Of America Continues
eom
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
77. "Individual Mandate" = Fascism
Forcing people to buy a product or service (such as health insurance) from a private company is fascist economics.

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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. If anything is going to piss people off, that will. The Dems are
going to be held responsible and there will be hell to pay at election time - all because Congress is owned by the insurance cartel and they don't give a rat's ass about the little guy.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #79
93. Don't worry, the M$M will frame it as
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 07:35 AM by Enthusiast
a public backlash because "The public didn't want health care reform."
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #77
129. "Corporate Communism"
Dylan Ratigan said it best:

The Cost of Corporate Communism

Lately I have been using the phrase "Corporate Communism" on my television show. I think it is an especially fitting term when discussing the current landscape in both our banking and health care systems.

As Americans, I believe we reject communism because it historically has allowed a tiny group of people to consolidate complete control over national resources (including people), in the process stifling competition, freedom and choice. It leaves its citizens stagnating under the perpetual broken systems with no natural motivation to innovate, improve services or reduce costs.

Lack of choice, lazy, unresponsive customer service, a culture of exploitation and a small powerbase formed by cronyism and nepotism are the hallmarks of a communist system that steals from its citizenry and a major reason why America spent half a century fighting a Cold War with the U.S.S.R.

And yet today we find ourselves as a country in two distinctly different categories: those who are forced to compete tooth and nail each day to provide value to society in return for income for ourselves and our families and those who would instead use our lawmaking apparatus to help themselves to our tax money and/or to protect themselves from true competition.


--more--
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dylan-ratigan/the-cost-of...

Ironic that today celebrates the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall. It seems we were fighting Marxist communism all those decades in order to make the world safe for corporate communism.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #129
139. I'm glad to see this piece
Back in the 1980's my anthropology professor got on the subject of communism. And I remember his words-that the soviet union was not a true communist state--he considered it an agrarian oligarchy. He said that the US has the capacity to be a communist state-a corporate communist state. Wow-that was back in the eighties.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #139
148. Interesting...
Perhaps the cold war was a conflict between "agrarian oligarchy" and "industrial oligarchy." I' sometimes wonder if we "beat" Marxist communism in order to make the world safe for "corporate communism." Certainly, if anything, the present health-care debate has shown just who Congress represents...and it isn't the American people.

War is good for the MIC and the oligarchs, so there's no need to justify an bogus invasion costing the US $3,000,000,000,000. However, health-care requires months, if not years (decades?), of debate and even then, the corporatists' interest wins out over the American people.
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
82. But hey, it's a "win"!!
AMIRITE? WOO!

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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
83. and party hacks can't stand it when Kucinich's convictions is
cause to save the party from itself. This best we can do , won't work when it can't work.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #83
126. Watch . . . the DLC will be targeting Kucinich and Grayson . . . as they'd targeted Nader . . .
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. k i c k
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Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
84. Thank you so much for this Posting
I am with you 100% here and understand completely the realities o this give away to the Insurance Industry.

Unfortunately , we have too many "Democratic Teabaggers" , for lack of a more descriptive term, who won't take the time to learn why this bill will be disastrous for the middle class. Instead they have allowed themselves to be caught up into the "We vs. Them " childlike mentality that so many Republican teabaggers practice daily. We, unfortunately, are no different and we are getting manupulated the very same was as ignorant Republicans have been.

I worry about what we can do and if there are enough of us to make a difference.

Bread and circuses seems to work so very well for so many Democrats or Republicans - we play into the very hands of those who are hurting us.

This bill is NOT Universal Health Care
This bill is NOT a public option.
This bill is NOT a health care bill.

This bill is a mandated health insurance bill and very little more.
Just like mandated auto insurance which we are all forced to pay top insurance companies. Is anyone out there really happy with their mandated auto insurance? Same thing


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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
88. Excellent OP!
:thumbsup:
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
94. Ah yes, certainly an "advance" for our cause as I've seen some say
This is not reform by ANY stretch of the word. I am astonished that those of us who aren't cheerleading this dreadful plan are called "bad names" here on DU of all places. Why on earth anyone would support this and then call it "reform" is beyond my grasp.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
95. Heh
That's what I've been saying. My S.O. just replies with "oh, people will bitch, but then they'll just go along with it as always". Well, except for that part where people have to choose between their basic required health insurance premium and, say, their rent.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #95
114. Exactly! Forced to pay for mandated health insurance, else risk taxes/fines/penalties from the IRS.
An even greater economic hardship -- or pay your rent/mortgage.

This is really gonna make it hard for Americans to put food on their families.

But hey, Obama promised to not raise taxes on those who made less than $250k.

He was j/k, I guess.
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quark219 Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
96. This is the NAFTA of the Obama administration
Edited on Mon Nov-09-09 08:59 AM by quark219
Five or ten years from now, maybe less, the majority of the people now supporting it will open their eyes and realize it was yet another gift to the corporations that screws the American people.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #96
128. +1
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
103. Considering our flawed democratic process, maybe it's the best Obama could do.
Not good enough for us however. Kucinich sure sticks to our guns and makes us proud, proud that some in the Democratic party do what's best no matter what.
.
. Kucinich's claims under the ERISA law, states will be unable to pursue single payer, even if they want. All guaranteed by this bill. We are locked into private insurance and private profit is now be subsidized with public money. His well reasoned discussion as to why he voted no. Love our DK..
.

.
been described as the biggest overhaul of the countrys healthcare system since the Medicare and Medicaid Act of 1965. Among those who voted no was Ohio Democrat Dennis Kucinich, a leading proponent of a single-payer Medicare for all health care system

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/11/9/house_passes_heal...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
107. Democrats are fooling themselves .. . they'll be put out of office . . .meanwhile .. .
they have a chance to be the party of Medicare for all and be re-elected over the

next decades!!

Corporatism is a roadblock to democracy -- and we have to get corporate money out of

the pockets of elected officials and candidates!!!

Can we concentrate on that?????????????????????????
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
109. Really fantastic post . . . thank you!!
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Last Stand Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #109
130. +1 nt
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
110. Thus ensuring the 'game' of the '2' party system continues!
Gotta play it dumb, and cut em a little slack after that pesky Bush episode ... for the 'greater' good ;)
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Eyerish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
113. K&R n/t
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
136. I take issue with one thing. It's not a bailout.
A bailout is something to save a distressed company, that may go under without assistance.

This is just a downright gift and a license to steal, for people with wealth beyond our dreams.

But I'm just being technical.
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-09-09 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
140. Kick
:kick:
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
149. kick

:kick:
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Sunnyshine Donating Member (698 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-11-09 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
150. K&R - Because the truth is lighter than shit. And it tastes better too!
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