Bad Dennis.

[saltpoint]

[still_one]

1. Which way did he vote? /nt

[Muttocracy]

2. against. bunch of other threads already up. nt

[still_one]

10. Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, Dennis is a lot like Ralph Nader. He would throw out the baby

with the bath water, instead of pragmatically believing that this might be the first step toward single payer

It is all how you look at it

The glass is half empty or half full

I prefer to think of it as half full

[Muttocracy]

31. yeah, the perfect being the enemy of the good. nt

[Truth2Tell]

41. nahh, the bad is the enemy of the good. perfect wasn't involved in this one. nt

[Muttocracy]

43. you're misunderstanding the metaphor - I'm sure DK is supporting the perfect. nt

[Truth2Tell]

57. No, I'm not. I'm pretty sure Dennis would support

any bill that moved the ball forward even a small bit. Even slightly good would work.

This bill however, is BAD, not good. It moves the ball backwards. So DK is supporting the good against the bad. See?

[Muttocracy]

59. OK, I hope DK gets his perfect legislation passed. nt

[Truth2Tell]

66. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Perfect is not on the table. Not in the room. Not on the planet.

Dennis (and most of America) is only asking for "good." We all understand that most of the people crafting this insurance industry bailout bill are vassals of the industry. So I don't think many informed people expected anything resembling perfect. But a tiny net positive, rather than a massive net negative, might have been nice.

Ahh well, we can always come back in another 20 years and try again.

[Yellow Horse]

63. Like the Douchebags (incl. Dennis) who failed to support HR 811 for voter-verified paper ballots...

...in the last Congress. The bill didn't completely ban direct recording electionic voting machines, so it was not "perfect" enough for Dennis and some of the far left loonies to support.

So this Congress the sponsor Rush Holt introduces a full DRE ban bill and now these wackjobs are saying they want to get rid of all voting machines outright and get hand-counted paper ballots or somesuch that is never going to happen and a lot of people don't agree with.

We will wait forever if we wait for the 'perfect' bill. And in the meantime, as we face the 2010 mid-terms, MILLIONS of votes are still on paperless electronic voting machines made by Diebold and its cousins.

Smart people, acting REALLY stupid, make me sick.

[WeDidIt]

3. He voted with the Republicans

So primary his dumb ass.

[cynatnite]

4. Yes, he disappointed me tonight. n/t

[aquart]

11. Nah.

We had the votes. He knew we had the votes. It doesn't hurt us that one of us holds out for a perfect bill.

Had we needed his vote, however, and he withheld it, I would have been happy to see his head on a pike.

Dennis doesn't get compromise which is the basic principle of democracy.

[cynatnite]

15. I still wish he had, but you made a very good point. Thanks. n/t

[Go2Peace]

64. And a Dem majority that whittled away the reform bill doesn't dissapoint?

I don't get it at all. This bill may be better than nothing. But it seems clear to me that the folks who passed it were not "white hats". They have a majority and gave us this?

Come on, let's get a little prespective?

[Xipe Totec]

5. As effective as Kosher cook in a sausage factory n/t

[bluestateguy]

6. MAybe he and Michelle Bachman and Virginia Foxx can meet to plot strategy together

Since they are on the same side at the end of the day.

The final vote is all that counts! That's all that history will remember.

[elocs]

7. You dare question a DU God!!!

I hope you are wearing your asbestos underwear. You'll need the protection.

[saltpoint]

12. "Asbestos underwear" ! LOL. I don't have any of those, and I'm fresh out

of "magic underwear" as well.

[LiberalHeart]

8. Read WHY he voted no...

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153995

[still_one]

13. but the question is, his proposals wouldn't pass today, and too many people with

pre-existing conditions can't wait

[LiberalHeart]

20. I agree with you, but it's not like he was siding with the GOP. He was voting his conscience.

[saltpoint]

23. I think he was voting his ego. He can only be a big contrarian as he

cannot be a big influence in the direction of the country. He is almost completely marginalized.

This was not Dennis Kucinish's best moment by a long shot and for those of use who had been perplexed about his defiant refusal to become more influential and collaborative -- in the way Ted Kennedy, as liberal a Senator as you could ask for, was over many decades -- Kooch reinforced the doubtss and the puzzlement and the frustration.

He knew the big picture with this bill and he opted to throw a little hissy-fit.

Shame on him.

[billh58]

35. +100

Well said, and right on.

[Bumblebee]

30. Unfortunately his conscience won't pay the medical bills of his constituents

[still_one]

34. I never said he was voting with the GOP, and I agree with your assessment /nt

[saltpoint]

14. I have, and I won't alter my assessment.

I'm all done with the little brat.

[saltpoint]

9. DeMint publicly threatened to kill health care legislation to deny Obama

the momentum for a successful presidency and re-election, but behold, an Ohio Congressman of the president's own party has taken the cue.

Kucinich voted nay to position himself for a primary challenge against the president.

No principle. All ego.

[still_one]

17. He has always been that way, same as Ralph Nader. They want a minimum requirement

but when you don't have the votes for that minimum requirement, what do you do?

You have a lot of people with pre-existing conditions, or who have lost their jobs, and don't have health insurance.

Can they wait for Congress to get it exactly right?

I don't think so

[saltpoint]

18. Agreed. We see in Kucinich's "principled" vote his naked ego.

Demanding the pure thing, the pure article, the unassailable legislation, which because it IS legislation, cannot exist.

He has won few friends anew this evening and I'm all done saying anything nice about him. If he is challenged in his primary in 2010 I'll send a check to whoever's trying to wrest the nom.

A sad little ego spasm by the Congressman from Ohio.

[elocs]

24. I'm betting with a post like that you are going to make a lot of ignore lists.

So few will be able to see your posts. I must admit that his ego is the only thing I want to see naked on DK. :bounce:

[saltpoint]

28. LOL. It would be an honor to be on the ignore lists of people who

feel that Dennis Kucinich cast a principled vote tonight.

As for seeing what naked of whom, I may have to agree with you there, too!

[elocs]

32. Although I would not say the same of his better half.

Men are such pigs. I need to be, punished.

[saltpoint]

33. LOL.

[Go2Peace]

67. come on now.

and the rest of the dems really are pure and represented the public good with this bill!

It may be better than not doing anything. But when did we start to think that these Dems that were in the majority and sold out to the corporations were actually the better representatives? You going to give them a pass after many of them sold you under the bus in order to keep their own asses rich and in power? I just don't get it.

I support Democrats, but I am not so blinded to think they are "white hats" at this point. This may be a desirable bill, but they failed us big time, they should have given us MUCH better!

[saltpoint]

68. One works in legislation with what one has, and the bill that passed

tonight passed narrowly.

I reassert that Kucinich knew the vote would be close, that he knew it might fail, and he appeared to me to have his "principled" statement of why he opposed it long pre-written.

It would have cost him very little indeed to advance this legislation with his one vote.

I'm disappointed in his impulse to allow his personal ego to triumph over what many of his entirely progressive colleagues found quite supportable.

Shame on him.

[LeftyMom]

16. Let's just say I trust his assessment of the situation over yours.

;)

[saltpoint]

19. Fine. Move to his district and volunteer for him. I'll be contributing

to his primary opponent.

[LeftyMom]

25. Honey, I wouldn't move to Ohio if they elected Jesus Christ to congress.

You can contribute to whoever the hell you want, but he's right, and you'll see.

[saltpoint]

29. If he's all that persuasive, though, LeftyMom, what happened to those

two consecutive blow-out disasters of White House runs?

Kucinich is grandstanding at this point. We're getting his ego. Ted Kennedy, as sturdy a liberal as you could hope for, knew how to work collaboratively in the Congress to get things done.

Kucinich may be progressive but he can't get one damn thing done, and he didn't make a whole lot of friends tonight, IMO. He's isolated, marginalized, ineffective, bratty, and deserves a very sturdy primary challenge.

[LeftyMom]

38. Who said anything about persuasive? He's right.

You'll see.

[saltpoint]

39. 'Persuasive' matters in the Congress.

If you aren't persuasive, you don't matter.

[LeftyMom]

40. Bush was persuasive. He was a fucking idiot but he was able to persuade other idiots.

Dennis Kucinich has his shit together. I'll take that over persuasive every day and twice on weekends.

But if you want to support this modern bullshit politics of show over substance go for it. Count me the fuck out, because that shit is for idiots, and I do not care to be treated like an idiot. If you sell policy like you sell soap, it will burn you in the long run, because anybody can run a brilliant PR campaign for any stupid shit.

So, as I said, I'll take right over persuasive any day. And Congressman Kucinich has a very good track record of being right.

[saltpoint]

44. Republic can become empire, and principle can become ego.

Dennis is marginal. He can't get anything done. He's grandstanding. He knew this vote would be close and pretended to oppose the legislation on "principle." It was all little Dennis and his huge ego, IMO.

Shame on him.

[Desertrose]

46. I agree with you completely Lefty Mom

You are right..this bill is show over substance all the way.

The compromise was all made at the BEGINNING when they threw out single payer.

And yes,Kucinich has a very good track record of being right

[Muttocracy]

53. "Kucinich has a very good track record of being right" but what about getting things done?

does he have a good track record of making a difference as a legislator? He might be more effective spending his time at a progressive think tank trying to change popular opinion than being in the Congress.

[still_one]

22. At least the bill gives a fighting chance to those with pre-existing conditions, where they

had none before

That doesn't mean that he is wrong, but I also believe what Dennis envisioned did not have the votes, so what it comes down to, is it better to get your foot in the door, or have nothing at all

I believe the current bill is better than what we have now. Is it ideal, absolutely NOT.

I abhor the abortion amendment, and points, but I believe that they can be changed later

You don't have a bill this year, it may take decades to come up with another one

In addition, this is far from final. It has to go through the Senate, then come back to the house

If this bill didn't pass, that would be it for a long time, it would be over

[Odin2005]

21. He's an attention-seeking little shit!

:grr:

[bertman]

26. My first UNrec EVER.

[saltpoint]

27. Pleased to have earned it.

Kucinich was an ass tonight. He pretends principle against the large landscape.

[provis99]

36. I notice the other "progressives" folded like a cheap suit and voted for this bill.

After all their bluster about refusing to vote for a bill that didn't offer a strong public option, they showed their total gutlessness and voted for this weak sauce bill, anyways. that should be the real story of the night.

[saltpoint]

37. It would be a better shake for everyone if the U.S. media would offer

critical insight into the legislative process.

Not just token transparency, but actual investigative journalism accessible (and thus assessible) to anyone within reach of a public or private ISP.

The media have emerged more or less unscathed in this entire discussion all summer long and I feel they ought to be taken out behind the barn and thrashed within an inch of their worthless lives.

[slipslidingaway]

42. knr your comment nt

[HughMoran]

45. no biscuit

:)

[saltpoint]

47. Hi, HughMoran.

There's one thing the site can agree on, and that's that we can't all agree on Dennis.

I've risen to his defense many times on DU but this vote tonight just crushed the pretzel.

I'm ready to strap Kucinich to a cheetah and flip open the cage door.

[HughMoran]

50. lol - I like his punishment

This was the last straw for me too. I've cheered him on many times in the past 5 years, even with the occasional disappointment. This time it's different. I now know that it's all about Dennis and his crew of idealists - to heck with the party. Tonight was NOT the night to take a stance the way he did. He's dead to me.

[saltpoint]

51. If he's going to be a public servant, IMO, he needs to shrink his personal ego.

It just feels to me to be disproportionate to his responsibility to his constituents.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. Bravo for Dennis and integrity.

[saltpoint]

49. The real work is done by those inside, not outside, and Kucinich is

outside.

I accuse him of hoping hard that that bill failed to establish rationale for his third, likely even more disatrous, run for the White House.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. If he runs he gets my vote. To hell with a rotten bill bought and paid for by lobbyists.

[saltpoint]

54. The debate, IMO, is not whether the bill is pretty. The debate is over

whether it advances the public interest more than its absence would.

In this view, Kucinich's vote was dismaying.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. There'll be pie in the sky when you die. Doled out by the lobbyists who bought this bill.

[saltpoint]

56. An interesting question might be why Ted Kennedy, quite the liberal,

was able to work so effectively and collaboratively for so long in the Congress when Congressman Kucinich cannot.

You've asserted your willingness to vote for Kucinich but I think at the same time you know that it would be a vote of your principle rather than an endorsement of Kucinich's likelihood of winning an election.

He would likely be defeated handily in a state-wide ballot in Ohio, and added to his string of crushing defeats in Democratic primaries over the last 8 years or so, there would not seem to be any reason for anyone to hold any practical hope of his ever being in the position of the man he tried to thwart with his vote tonight.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. “Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that

your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

The system is corrupt. To go along with it is to endorse it.

[Libertas1776]

60. If "I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all"

Pity more people don't share such a sentiment.

[saltpoint]

61. When one runs for a seat in Congress, it is the Congress one must vow to

serve and through stong indirection one's constituents.

Again, DK works outside the building in which the real work is being done.

He does it on purpose in one view, or he does it inadvertently in another; in either event he's outside.

He offered his candidacy, and his ideology, and his take on 'principle' in two consecutive Democratic primaries and by overwhelming percentages his candidacy was rejected.

Tonight he reasserts his role as contrarian. I see very little 'principle' and quite a bit of ego.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. You prefer Democrats who cave to the right at the drop of campaign contribution?

We tried "working on the inside". Remember Chicago '68? And, what the insiders did then and have done ever since?

The system will never change as long as we hold our noses and vote for the "not as bad" candidates.

[saltpoint]

65. The Congress meets in a big building in DC where bills are forged.

Negotiation is involved. Compromise is involved.

If you, as a far-left purist have some magical pathway to a perfect society, by all means share it with the rest of us.

In the off-chance that you do not, I will praise the work of those who DO the work. I do not perceive Dennis Kucinich as one such.

He is an increasingly marginal, borderline-histrionic little man with a major-league ego with a view toward the contrarian role.

Again. If you want to offer an alternative solution to corporate excess, it needs to be an effective alternative. I'd say the same to Kucinich were he to pop in this evening.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. Demanding party loyalty in the face of corruption isn't "purist"?

God Bless the contrarians and dissidents who make trouble and don't accept the status quo of politics-as-usual.

I don't offer a "perfect society" or magic. But I hold it to be a citizens responsibility to hold their public servants accountable for their actions and "compromises" that corrupt society.

Politicians don't change society. They are, with a few notable exceptions, ambitious little opportunists whose only devotion is to gaining and maintaining power.

[saltpoint]

70. How to find a society without some degree of corruption.

But that is not the point at hand.

The debate, IMO, is whether Kucinich ought to or ought not to have voted in favor tonight.

I say he ought to have. You say he ought not to have.

The nature of society does not change on one vote alone. If one believes that flawless legislation is attainable, I say hell, let the rest of us in on it.

If DK wants to be the moral man in an immoral society, to steal Niebuhr's phrase, he can get away with it to a point. The point beyond which he is unable to get away with it is when he has offered it to the larger landscape of Democratic primary voters who gave him one or two modest victories but who in general kicked him to the side of the road.

I've defended him many times on this site.

I didn't care for his grandstanding vote this evening.