[IMAGE] What Obama Understands that DU fails to

[zaj]

I've always had an gutteral understanding of the slow, almost 1/2 measures Obama has taken toward "change", but I was almost shocked when I was this graphic.

I think it goes a long way toward explaining the big gap between perceptions of Obama's actions here among the posters on DU and the thinking of his office and the rest of the public.

[tekisui]

1. I am a proud 20%.

[zaj]

2. This is also what goes into the political calculations of Democrats in the House and Senate

[redqueen]

3. That chart is just so sad.

No wonder we have such a poor excuse for a social safety net... we still use the death penalty... we have prisons for profit... we start wars of choice and let reckless hawks dictate policy... we still blow billions of dollars on a war against our own citizens... etc, etc, etc.

[Echo In Light]

64. "Uniquely American"

[peace13]

4. The numbers don't lie right?

Personally, I think the graph is bull but hey, I don't need a reason to justify Obama's actions either.

[zaj]

15. I hate when Republicans do this...

... ignore any substantive discussion and just dismiss the source entirely because it upsets their predetermined assumptions.

It's perfectly reasonable to accept this information and use it to our benefit.

The results shift over time. Make the number move up if it upsets you. Don't just pretend it's all a lie.

[peace13]

17. My republican family spits the word liberal at me like it means dirty *hore.

I doubt many people taking this survey clamor to be categorized as Liberal!

Edited to add that I find it impossible to believe that conservatives are gaining members. How did Obama get elected? If this thing read that conservatives were declining slightly and moderates were gaining slightly I could believe tha, but really the bottom 30% hangers on are not making any new friends.

[zaj]

32. People are moving in opposition to "change". It can be difficult, scary and unwelcome.

That's predictable. They like the idea of doing things differently. But the Republicans are exploiting that to some success.

[peace13]

40. Yes the wonderful successful Republicans!

The diaper shitting, lying, stealing, wife cheating republicans. You have me convinced. I think I am one of them!

[zaj]

53. ?

I don't have any idea what this post means.

[smalll]

5. The word you're searching for is "visceral" not "gutteral."

Also, you misspelled "gutteral" -- in fact, it is "guttural" with a second U.

vis·cer·al (vsr-l)
adj.
1. Relating to, situated in, or affecting the viscera.
2. Perceived in or as if in the viscera; profound: "The scientific approach to life is not really appropriate to states of visceral anguish" (Anthony Burgess).
3. Instinctive: visceral needs. See Synonyms at instinctive.

gut·tur·al (gtr-l)
adj.
1. Of or relating to the throat.
2. Having a harsh grating quality, as certain sounds produced in the back of the mouth.
3. Linguistics Velar.

[zaj]

16. Thanks.

The more you know.

[Captain Hilts]

6. People projected a progressivism onto him he never really had. nt

[zaj]

18. He's left-center-left. Left of Bill Clinton. Right of DU. And Trasformationally Slow.

But transformational, none the less.

[Captain Hilts]

28. I don't think he's center left at all. nt

[Raineyb]

80. Neither do I.

What passes for "left" around here would be considered right wing anywhere else. But I suppose making up definitions is another "uniquely American" thing to celebrate.

[Captain Hilts]

81. True. nt

[still_one]

7. In my view, this is not representative. Most people in this country are moderate

and that trend is still intact as shown by the only poll that counts the election of 2008

I don't know the statistics in this poll, but Gallup at times overweights with republicans in a lot of their polls. In addition, what does conservative, liberal and moderate really mean?

Would getting out of Afghanistan be considered liberal, conservative, or moderate

How about healthcare? Polls say that 67% of the people want a public option, but most would consider that a "liberal" view?

Are the viewers of faux "really conservative", or just extremist?

Many polls like this are telling us that the Democrats are in trouble in 2010, I believe that isn't the case, and it is because of the moderates, who will not vote for the palin's, beck's or limbaugh

[zaj]

19. Bush + Obama = 2008....

When the policies Obama is pushing are met with the tough realities that they bring with them, they lose some favor. Obama is more popular than the policies he's persuing. That was the same with Reagan.

Slow tranformation.

[HughMoran]

8. Major eye opener

I hadn't seen this plot before - it shows that there are many (perhaps unintentionally) disingenuous posters here.

[Bleacher Creature]

9. I'm calling BS on this chart (again).

I don't doubt that a plurality of this country calls themselves "conservative," and we all know that the right has spent the last 30 years demonizing the word "liberal." What I do question is whether the people answering these polls actually know what the words MEAN. I'm highly confident that if you poll people based on the issues, without labeling them as "liberal" or "conservative", many more people would be identified as liberals.

[redqueen]

14. The chart isn't BS.

If it claimed that that's what their views were, it'd be BS, but it clearly says that that's simply how they describe themselves.

Based on which candidates people support and vote for, this chart seems spot on.

[zaj]

37. It doesn't matter if they know what the terms mean. It's how people react to the question...

It's a cultural (slow) change that has to take place.

[HamdenRice]

42. ROFL! Exactly -- like GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MEDICARE!!

When you ask people what they actually want, they are not conservative.

Also, the chart seems to conflate "Moderate" and "Conservative."

I would interpret that chart to mean that 56% of the population is liberal to moderate.

[zaj]

47. Don't dismiss the results, see how they impact elections, voting and policy.

The entire framing of politics is against liberals. That won't change over night. Obama understands that. DU seems to fail to understand the impact of that.

[Liberal In Texas]

10. The word "Liberal" has been demonized for years by the RW

and even though a lot of people actually have liberal views on most things, they now don't feel comfortable calling themselves one. I know a guy who greeted us at a party a couple of weeks ago when we arrived by saying, "Here come the liberals" in a kind of mock insult. I wanted to tell him he was in a whole room full of liberals, but didn't want to get into another stupid talking-point-fest from things he picks up from watching Fox. Oddly, the guy is strongly for universal health care and hates big business and corrupt politicians; all of which I kind of think of as liberal views.

[zaj]

20. That's right. Undoing 20+ years of thinking is a slow change.

[zaj]

11. This is a product of a patient conservative movement, the success of the Reagan era, and...

... the demonization of the term "liberal" over 20+ years.

I for one think that Obama is the left's "Reagan". He will be transformative over the long haul, even if each step is far more incremental than the left would want.

The fight is much greater than I think some here understand.

[Cerridwen]

12. Did you notice something missing from that chart?

Where are the rush/beck/hannity/palinite crowd? Shouldn't there be a representation of the uber-conservative contingent in there?

Or do they just call themselves conservative? Or consider themselves moderate?

All this chart shows me is that 20% of people polled have not been swayed by the liberal=evil message we've been fed for decades.

Please, show me where they defined conservative, moderate, and liberal.

[Ichingcarpenter]

21. *1 ........ where are the 20% that are idiots and support idiots ?

I hold the poll in contempt of actual validity

[tsuki]

13. How you view yourself is not necessarily reality based. I have friends

that are proud "conservatives" that when questioned are left of center.

Gallup trying to skew the country's orientation.

[kiva]

23. Exactly. Sort of like 'feminist' -

somehow it was turned into a label that many women rejected, though if you ask them they support the ideals that have traditionally defined a feminist.

[Toucano]

22. I don't think this is as significant as you (and you claim) Obama think.

These broad categories are really meaningless.

Polls about individual issues are more revealing. The country is "Conservative" in name only.

[Toucano]

26. For example.

http://people-press.org/report/553/same-sex-marriage


Some consider this a core "conservative" value, but 48% of Republicans (+8) favor civil unions. That's not the impression you would get from listening to the national talking heads speak on the subject.

[redqueen]

27. It's not civil unions that people are trying to alter state constitutions over.

Which is why I think many Dem pols seem to support civil unions over gay marriage.

[Toucano]

33. That's not true.

Civil unions are banned in UT, OK, MI, OH, ND, LA, GA, AR, and KY. (some by amendments, some by state laws)

But that isn't the point entirely.

The point is that when the question is broad, it reveals a different opinion than when the question is specific.

Listeners or Limbaugh, Hannity, and Savage would never know that 48% of self-identified Republicans support, in part, something they characterize as "the liberal agenda".

[redqueen]

36. And many Dems support gun rights and the death penalty.

I don't think things are ever as cut and dry as many seem to want to think they are.

[Toucano]

39. That's exactly the point! The Gallup chart tries to say things are cut and dry.

My earlier data was out of date. Sorry.

The dark red states have prohibitions on Civil Unions.

[redqueen]

45. Seems to correlate nicely with the data in the OP. (nt)

[Toucano]

50. Horse meet water.

Okay, so you're not thirsty. n-t

[redqueen]

52. Sorry you failed in your attempt to make a point.

The data in the OP shows that people self-identify as moderate to conservative... the map of this issue seems to indicate the same.

Care to try again?

[Toucano]

66. Yes, I did.

Your response to my post dismissed the Pew study regarding civil unions because, you believed, that civil unions were not what people were banning.

The map indicating that states have indeed banned civil unions corrects your misconception regarding that fact. It may or may not represent how the people feel about the issue. More people live under a law banning civil unions than actually oppose it.

That's settled.

Now back to the original submission, the Pew issue poll vs. the Gallup label poll.

The support of civil unions is a liberal position. Yet 21% of "Liberal Democrats" oppose civil unions and 43% of "Conservative Republicans" favor civil unions.

This is, as you said, is not cut and dry.

The LABEL, doesn't tell you nearly as much as the response to a question on an actual issue.

The only thing it really tells us is that people are more comfortable identifying themselves as moderate or conservative. It doesn't give you any insight it how best to govern and reflect the will of the people. Simply knowing that you are a Conservative or Liberal DOES NOT tell me that you favor or oppose a given initiative or policy.

Another example: http://people-press.org/report/551/



55% of the people FAVOR a government plan that competes with private plans. Does the public option get characterized as a liberal position or a conservative position? 47% "generally oppose" the proposals in congress.

It would seem that if we want to keep our seats in 2010, we better pass a government plan that competes with private plans even though if we listen to these heroes of conservatism, that's on step away from Stalin beating your door down.

Bottom line: What Obama knows that DU doesn't know? I hope he knows a lot more than a generalized "cliff's notes" of the complex political landscape contained in the Gallup poll.

[redqueen]

73. I didn't dismiss it.

I made a comment re: political cowardice. If people are that dead-set against civil unions even, do you expect there is more or less support for gay marriage, and how might that affect politicians' willingness to stand up for civil rights?

As for what people want vs. what politicians want... the electorate that keeps lining up against politicians who openly favor things like civil unions and single payer health care gives politicians cover for their fealty to industry.

Of course the label doesn't matter as much as the issue... yet I reiterate that from my perspective it seems that the majority of people don't think too hard about most issues, but are instead all about labels. Superficiality is hugely detrimental in many ways, but most people just love it right up.

Others have posted evidence that people's actual beliefs with respect to actual issues puts them far more in the liberal-to-moderate range... but given that most people get their information from the M$M... the actual issues tend to fall by the wayside, sacrificed to slogans like 'famliy values,' 'personal responsibility,' 'respect for life,' etc.

[zaj]

46. Labels affect how people vote. Don't dismiss the power of words.

[zaj]

44. People vote based on labels. Don't ignore the power of words.

It is not anything more than it is. But it is significant.

Our challenge is to change this, not ignore it.

[tularetom]

24. A lot of those "moderates" are really "liberals" in their beliefs

but they've been so conditioned by the media to dread and despise that term so they would never identify themselves as such.

It's the end result of the idiotic labeling and classification of every issue into "liberal" or "conservative" positions. And the subtle demonization of the policies and politicians labeled as "liberals".

It's bullshit yet everybody keeps falling for it.

[zaj]

70. There is a lot of truth to that.

[Winterblues]

25. Liberal has been so demonized by the Right that few would identify with them.

I believe that a majority of people in the USA consider themselves to be "moderates" I also believe if you broke everything down issue by issue far more would fall on the Liberal side then the Conservative...

[fascisthunter]

29. bullshit

and IF he is using this poll for his decisions, then he's as dumb.

[JackRiddler]

30. I call BS on the chart for measuring how people stand on labels, rather than issues.

After decades of propaganda, "liberal" is a dirty word associated with the myths of champagne-drinking "elites" in limousines, insufferable latte-sipping hipsters at Starbucks, and "welfare queens" guzzling Thunderbird.

Although those who call themselves conservatives have moved away from a truly conservative philosophy, it still has fine connotations: "business," "hard work," "family values."

And of course a high proportion of people are always going to want to be "moderate," whatever that means.

Neither liberal (a 19th century capitalist ideology) nor conservative retain their original meanings.

Furthermore, most people on the left do not identify with "liberal," which to them means little more than capitalism with a human face and opportunistic compromises by career politicians. Are we only 10 percent? So what, that would change the equation presented by your chart.

In short, this Gallup poll is masturbation for the status quo.

Have you ever seen a poll ask people if they are right-wing, centrist, or left-wing? What do you think that one would look like?

What about a poll that includes "leftist" and "libertarian," both of which are common enough as labels to merit inclusion? What about one that replaces the hated "liberal" with the still positively charged "progressive"?

Imagine this one: Politically do you consider yourself "progressive," "conservative" or "centrist"?

Meanwhile, what has been the trend in terms of people identifying themselves as Democrats, Republicans or Independents?

Most important of all: what about the issues?

Do most people want to keep troops in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do they support a single-payer universal health system? Do they support providing trillions of taxpayer dollars to the banks who burned the financial system? Would they like to see continued US interventions on behalf of the right-wing governments in Colombia and Mexico?

What do you think those results would look like?

Oh, are those questions not "neutrally" phrased? Neither is your choice of a poll.

Why isn't Obama parlaying majority support against military interventions and for single-payer health care into policy changes?

Screw this obfuscation and divide-and-conquer strategy of relying on general, meaningless labels like "liberal" and "conservative."

[Toucano]

34. Bingo! n-t

[redqueen]

35. How many voters consider issues?

How many just walk in and vote based on the label?

I'd be very curious to know. I would expect a good proportion would have only the most tenuous, media-led grasp on most issues.

[JackRiddler]

38. You ask, "How many just walk in and vote based on the label?"

However, the labels they see in the voting booth are not "conservative," "liberal" and "moderate."

[redqueen]

43. Do they have to be?

Conservative = Republican
Liberal = Democrat
Moderate = ? (I'd be interested to see how this breaks down in various elections/voters' stance on issues)

[JackRiddler]

55. No, but your equations don't "have to be" either.

"Conservative" = Republican ?
We can only hope. I'm serious. That would soon be a 22 percent party.

"Liberal" = Democrat ?
Only if they're totally out of touch with what most Democratic politicians do.

"Moderate" = ? An untenable middle, an illusion that the average of wrong and wrong makes a right, a polite self-image to adopt for those who prefer not to think too much about it.

Where's progressive, libertarian, right left and center?

[redqueen]

65. "for those who prefer not to think too much about it."

What percentage of the electorate would you think that description might fit? I would imagine it fits more than just self-described moderates. Which would explain the disconnect between people's ideas about policy and how they self-describe with respect to ideology.

[zaj]

41. People vote based on labels. Don't ignore the power of words.

As you can see from several of my replies, I 100% agree that it's about self identifying and lables. But that's exactly what people who actually vote often vote on. They vote on lables.

[JackRiddler]

54. What indicates that I "ignore the power of words"?

I absolutely do not. On the contrary, I devoted several paragraphs above to showing how the power of different words likely would have altered the results of the poll. We should respect the power of words. One way to do that is not to accept the enemy's labels. "Conservative" and "liberal," especially if presented as the only choices alongside the non-entity of "moderate," create a false dichotomy that is bound to support the status quo (something the Gallup organization is known for) and work to the detriment of progressive forces.

[zaj]

59. Agreed then. But among us, you can't dismiss this sort of poll.

We need to process this information, not dismiss it.

We should try to change the foundational assumptions people use to frame the debate. But that requires accepting that the status quo is very real. This poll reflects a real truth about the mind set that our politicians face and a real challenge we should embrace.

[JackRiddler]

72. Granted partly if you can admit the "status quo" is largely a framing artifact.

Especially in a poll that leaves out choices for "libertarian" and "progressive."

[zaj]

76. I've made that point repeatedly in other posts. But framing it reality at the voting booth.

[JackRiddler]

77. Did I miss the last election?

People voted for the guy who talked about single payer and leaving Iraq, no? What was his name again?

[zaj]

79. They elected Obama because they voted for the guy who talked about "Change".

We voted for the guy who talked about Single Payer (not really) and getting out of Iraq (slowly) and expanding the war in Afganistan (DUers forget that all the time) and cutting taxes and opposition to gay marriage and...

... he wasn't elected by the DUer progressive-puritans.

I don't think DUers really understand how weak the governing majority is for Dems. It's even weaker for "liberals" as the poll reflects.

That Dems have to run away from the widespread labels is bad for our policies. Obama needs to change that, and it will only happen over time. And it won't happen if his base abandons him because his "change" isn't fast enough.

[placton]

31. just smile and be happy?

Obama really knows what is best - along with Reid and Pelosi.

[zaj]

51. If left chooses conced "enthusiasm" to the Tea Baggers in exchange for ideological disappointment...

... the Republicans will win today, in 2010 and maybe in 2012.

DUers (many) seem to be taking a short term view. That's just stupid, IMO.

[Stinky The Clown]

48. I understand that. I've always understoood that. It doesn't change my view or what I want ........

.... Obama or any president to do.

At some point, even the most finger in the wind political person needs to just DO WHAT IS RIGHT.

And what am I supposed to do or change now that you've shown us the light with this graph?

[zaj]

49. I respect that post a lot.

That the Dems are taking on this issue at all, demonstrates that they have the guts to do what's right. The question is how much can they get done right now.

[baldguy]

56. The fatal flaw, of course, is that they ask about labels & not about policies.

People want their Social Security, they want a fair govt-run health-care system, they want Wall Street to be regulated & Main Street to be bailed out, they don't like working for a faceless multi-national corporation who'll ship their job to Shanghai at the drop of a hat. And they don't like to be afraid all the time.

But they'll also tell anyone who listens that they're a conservative.

[zaj]

57. People vote on labels.

[baldguy]

60. Correction: STUPID people vote for labels.

I'm not saying there aren't a lot of stupid people out there - there are. But most people aren't stupid. And most people - liberal AND conservative - vote for the candidate and the issues s/he supports.

[NoSheep]

62. I think most people are stupid....and in this case I mean ignorant.

[zaj]

71. Don't dismiss the power of labels as limited to stupid people.

Everyone is impacted by it. We need to understand this and not ignore the reality of it. Fight to change it. That takes time though.

[Greyhound]

58. If you used this in your results in a stats class, you'd fail. n/t

[kenny blankenship]

61. You're completely right. I should have voted for McCain/Palin to cut out the middleman.

Thanks. You really cleared it all up for me.

[bvar22]

63. A different poll:

Here is what The Majority of Americans (Democrats & Republicans) want from their government.

In recent polls (2005) by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a real Democratic Party:

1. 65 percent (of ALL Americans, Democrats AND Republicans) say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.

2. 86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").

3. 60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.

4. 66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

5. 77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.

6. 87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.

7. 69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."

http://alternet.org/story/29788/

8. Over 63% oppose the War on the Iraqi People.

9. 92% of ALL Americans support TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

Seems like America is well to The Left of The Democratic Party
once you trashcan The Labels and focus on The Issues.

[Kansas Wyatt]

68. But it's not put on a big poster for politicians to look at.

There is an advantage to keeping people confused about what political identity they are in polls... It's easier to keep the scam going.

[krispos42]

69. Bingo (see my post below)

Excellent post :thumbsup:

[JackRiddler]

74. Applauded.

[krispos42]

67. It's a branding poll, IMO

With domination by the RW media, people know who conservatives are (or their public faces, at least) and identify with them... the perception of agreement with, say, CONSERVATIVE Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly.

"Yes, they make good sense on the radio"... because those media personalities don't have to deal with any sort of self-critisism or any kind of fact or reality check. They don't give context or anything approaching enough background information to have any kind of real debate.

And they say "liberal" like it's a dirty word. With 90% of politicial talk radio conservative, it's become an insult, conciously or unconciously. The media is "liberal". Liberals like killing babys and stealing your guns. Liberals don't see the danger posed by brown people and Muslims.

Yadda yadda yadda.


I notice how the "liberal" tag went up as liberal talk radio got on the air in the early 2000's. And a knee-jerk reaction to Obama (scary brown person) got more people to say they're conservatives simply in opposition to "big spending" and the stupid bailouts.

[texasleo]

75. I'm not a liberal, by American measurements, but I won't be voting for any Repubs any time soon.

[rug]

78. Does Obama understand this chart?