It appears to me that without gun control - these VT incidents will always

[Bullwinkle925]

happen in this country. I sense the blame is being put upon the shoulders of the VT university faculty and security. 'They should have done this, they should have done that' - ridiculous.
Nothing in this country will change - EVER - without gun control.
Admittedly - I am no fan of guns - never have been, never will be. I don't get the sport of hunting. Where's the sport? Animals are unarmed - period. What is the fun in killing something? All that ever happens in this country is rhetoric over gun control. Those who now own guns and love 'em - don't fear - gun control will never happen here. Go on - go out and shoot 'em up!

[spoony]

1. Ah, derision and scorn, that'll change the world!

[Bullwinkle925]

3. Where is the scorn? What is false with what I stated?

[piedmont]

23. The closing paragraph of your OP, genius.

"I don't get the sport of hunting. Where's the sport? Animals are unarmed - period. What is the fun in killing something? All that ever happens in this country is rhetoric over gun control. Those who now own guns and love 'em - don't fear - gun control will never happen here. Go on - go out and shoot 'em up!"

[Bullwinkle925]

46. I don't believe I was addressing you - but you replied anyway.

I don't mean it scornfully - it's the truth. Nothing will happen to control guns in this country - and people do go out and shoot 'em up. I hate New Years' Eve here due to the fact that people in the neighborhood go out and ratchet off their guns. Don't get it. At all. Period.

Still - do you disagree that the animals are unarmed?



:shrug:

[Raskolnik]

52. Jebus I *hope* the animals are unarmed!

All we need is for deer to get opposable thumbs and start carrying guns. The only thing we could really do at that point is is hail our new white-tailed overlords.

[Bullwinkle925]

59. hahahahahahaha -

I think they would be more welcome than our yellow-bellied chickenhawks who are running the roost right now.

[movonne]

2. This is just the beginning...

[TnDem]

24. That's right....

It's the beginning of the end for the Democratic party if some of the loons on this board got what they wanted on the issue.

To even breathe the issue is instant death politically...You would immediately concede the entire south and midwest in a national election...And if you do that, you can't win.

[JuniperLea]

4. "Gun Control" means different things to different people

Perhaps you should start by detailing what you think that entails.

Then you can explain to us how laws and regulations keep horrid things from happening with such certitude, how everyone in the country will be compelled to obey these laws and regs.

Perhaps we should also consider the deeply troubled and mentally ill, and how we can make sure they obey the laws, given that a basic disconnect or disassociation can be expected during a time of crisis or mental breakdown.

Then you might suggest reasons as to why beating this dead horse will effect change.

We might also like to hear how this continued deceased equestrian brutality serves any other purpose than to further divide or cause flame wars.

[Bullwinkle925]

7. You're absolutely right. There are many, many issues that go into this.

As a nation, we will never - EVER have a consensus of opinion on this matter. The 2nd Amendment will always rear its head - (even though I would wish to hear the Founding Fathers today converse upon this topic). Now that we have (somewhat) a modern fighting army, navy, marines and airforce - the original assumption of owning a gun for 'protection' has sort of flown out the window. The horse is out of the barn - guns are prolific in this society. It's the 'American way of life' - let's never change that! We still need to go out and trap and hunt in order to sustain our families? I do agree that mental health needs some serious addressing and attention. I'm in the medical field and have seen my fair share of people who need to be referred - willingly or not- to further psychiatric care and possible admittance. I had a sister who suffered from a form of schizophrenia - I know how uneasy it is for family members to have to struggle with this. Fortunately, I never felt she was harmful to anyone else except herself. If she had appeared to have been harmful to others - what were my options? She was married to someone who refused to see what was happening to her and looked the other way. She has since died from breast cancer, after refusing to see Drs. until it was too late - so in a way - I think she did commit suicide. In a rose-colored glasses world, Yes - the only people who will purchase guns will be those who are law-abiding folks. We know that won't ever happen. Look at Dick Cheney, for example!
These incidents will never stop. Let's just hope that not one of our family members are ever in the 'wrong place at the wrong time'. My heart truly goes out to those who have lost members of their families to this nonsense.

[JuniperLea]

5. System Glitch Dupe!

[MoonRiver]

6. The culture of "life" requires killing. Doncha know?

:crazy:

[Bullwinkle925]

8. Yup - we keep kicking the same dog around the same yard each and every

time this happens. It amazes me to see the "Shock" and "Outrage" that pours forth whenever there is another killing rampage. Haven't we already 'been there, done that' how MANY times?

I feel for the loved ones of all these senseless killings. I feel for the families of those who perpetrated this nonsensical violence. I feel for the individuals who did do the killings and the mental torture they endured that led them up to the day they decided to 'do it'. I don't feel for the gun lovers who raise their shouts of "Second Amendment" each and every time this happens.

[MoonRiver]

11. I almost think it's group (i.e. this country) insanity.

When an ideology reaches the point where one is willing to sacrifice one's own children to prove a point, that ideology has run its useful course, IMCPO.

[JuniperLea]

13. How do you suggest we change the system? n/t

[MoonRiver]

18. Initiate serious gun control.

Won't be easy, but it is the only answer. Do I think that will happen? No, because every one of our elected officials, with a few exceptions, is a total coward. They will NEVER stand up to the NRA, regardless of how much their constituents want gun control. It's madness, but, hey, it's "our" madness.
:crazy:

[JuniperLea]

21. How do you define gun control?

There seem to be varying thoughts on this.

[MoonRiver]

25. I think all hand guns should be banned.

People should be able to possess hunting rifles only.

[JuniperLea]

29. And do you think it likely all hand guns will be turned in?

And do you think the police and armed forces should be without handguns as well?

Do you think humans can't be killed with hunting rifles?

Do you think that if by some miracle all the hand guns disappear, that no one will think to use a rifle in a murder?

I've seen rifles that can be broken down into three pieces and can be easily concealed... all other rifles can be broken down into two pieces, not that hard to conceal those either.

BTW... thanks for the level headed, honest discussion! A rare and precious thing here!

[MoonRiver]

42. Answers:

1.) No, I certainly am not naive enough to believe that EVERY handgun would be turned in. Hopefully enough would be to bring about a reduced crime rate.
2.) Personally, I think police and other law enforcement types must retain their guns.
3.) Of course murders with rifles and other instruments of death would still be used to commit murders. My belief is that the murder rate would be significantly reduced however.
4.) I don't know what can be done to rifles. But, when somebody is caught with an altered rifle law enforcement should throw the book at him/her.

Bottom line, banning hand guns is not an instant panacea. It's a start which would have to be fine tuned. A lot of diligence and determination over a long period of time would be necessary to make true gun control a reality.

But like I said earlier, I doubt this country's elected officials have the guts to even try. So, meanwhile, we each just have to hope and pray that we and/or our loved ones don't become another gun crime victim statistic.

:hi: Nice talking with you also! :hi:

[Bullwinkle925]

50. I agree with you. If only this kid had not been able to get his hands

on these guns. I'm sure the parents, siblings & friends of those who were slaughtered wish this kid had not been able to go through with this senseless gun-killing as well.

[MoonRiver]

57. Juniperx mentioned better mental health care to prevent violent gun crime.

I say AMEN to that! :kick:

[JuniperLea]

55. Nice job! Good answers...

I think that most of the remaining guns in our little scenario would be in the wrong hands, and that there would be a rise in black market gun sales. Much like the bootlegging during prohibition, and very much like today's drug cartel.

I think it would be best to make crimes committed with a gun hold a mandatory, very stiff, long jail sentence on top of any other sentence. Non-negotiable. So if a murderer is paroled after seven years of a life sentence for good behavior, the joker would still have to stay another 10 for the use of a gun.

I think a better mental health system would cut back on murders of all kinds, shootings included. You really must be nuts if you can take another life... if not, you will probably suffer mental anguish after the fact. Ask anyone who had to shoot or be shot in a war.

You know, this has been the most wonderful, peaceful, kindly, generous and respectful conversation I've ever seen or personally been a part of on any heated issue!

We rule!

:hi:

[MoonRiver]

60. You hit on something REALLY important: good mental health care.

And of course, that leads us to good health care in general. All citizens, regardless of ability to pay, must be able to access health care.

:thumbsup:

[JuniperLea]

61. I think we as a society are too ready to...

put the cart before the horse! We need to peel the onion, find the root causes, and strike at the base of the matter.

If we were all mentally well balanced, there could be a loaded gun in every home and business and the murder rate would be zero. There would still be accidents... but if we were all in possession of all our picnic sandwiches and our elevators went to all the floors, we could probably get rid of guns, no problemo!

We should run the world. Damn!

[dysfunctional press]

9. it's the price our society is apparently willing to pay...

so that the insecure and paranoid among us can pack all the heat they need to prop up their deviant yet oh-so-fragile egos.

[Bullwinkle925]

10. I'm sorry - I really don't GET what the joy and excitement is from

killing anything? Hunting is always brought up as the right to bear arms (aside from personal protection, that is). Seems like we have moved past the 'trapping days' and into modern age a long time ago, haven't we? Why do (mainly) men have such love affairs with killing machines?

[JuniperLea]

15. What about those who target shoot as a sport?

What about the idea that it's much more difficult to invade an armed country? We have little or no protection right now, seeing as how this mis-administration has chosen to send our National Guard into battle... something it was never intended to be used for in a sustained manner such as this.

What about those who have owned guns for dozens of generations, quietly, without bravado or membership in some organization?

With the economy as it stands, with more and more people pouring into the 'below the poverty line' demographic, how long do you think it will be before hunting becomes a necessity to some?

[realisticphish]

20. nope

we gun owners hate everyone and want to kill... Kill KILLLLLL!

Oh, yeah, and they're a phallic reference. That always comes up in these discussions.

[JuniperLea]

27. Yeah, I get the same thing about guitar players too...

So I guess Ted Nugent gets two strikes. I think he's an ass, but I love his guitar work. I was with him on the right to feed your family free range animals devoid of hormones and anti-biotics for a while, but now I'm finding heirloom meats and don't eat so much of that anymore anyway.

I still think my survivalist grandfather was right thought. We may very well find ourselves without a grocery store someday. With Commander CuckoBannanas in charge, I have no doubt that any number of otherwise ridiculous sounding scenarios are possible. Gramps believed as Einstein did... that the weapons used during WWIII are unknown, but WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones. As a kid, not only did I learn to fire a weapon with great accuracy, but I learned to break it down and clean it too... minor repairs on some. I can dress out rabbits, fowl, deer; I can clean fish and frogs. I can make soap from animal fat, ashes and water. Candles from tallow. I can collect fur and plant fiber, card and spin it... weave cloth from it, cut and sew clothing from it. Although I don't have the strength, with help I can fell trees and build a log cabin. Why do you suppose I was taught these things in my youth? Because a very wise family, a family who has been here since our ancestor Miss Mary Chilton, stepped foot from Mayflower to land, has seen the ups and downs and knows how history repeats.

I'm thankful for the knowledge, and likewise I hope I never have to put it into practice. Chances are it could happen though.

[Bake]

40. Nah, Nooge was a wanker on the guitar, too!

I hope he's a better shot than he is a guitar player, but I'm not sure about that either.

Bake

[Bullwinkle925]

51. Can you target shoot with blank cartridges?

If so, I have no problem with that. If all the ammunition on the market were blanks, okay by me. As far as the economically-disadvantaged, I'm having a difficult time thinking of those who reside in the inner cities as going out hunting.

[karlrschneider]

36. Please take a couple minutes to read this excellent post

and the link to his earlier one 3 years ago.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=684736&mesg_id=688694

[EstimatedProphet]

72. do you have any idea of the complexities involved in wildlife management?

[JuniperLea]

12. And how is snarking this obviously heated issue helpful?

You've chosen to insult rather than offer up something meaningful and possibly helpful?

Not all gun nuts are as you describe here, and it's really insulting, really, really insulting and unfair and untrue. How does this help?

[dysfunctional press]

44. "it's really insulting, really, really insulting and unfair and untrue."

look out- your insecurity is showing...

please don't shoot me.

[beevul]

26. How is it...

that those that want to "inact serious gun control" because they percieve a huge problem are anymore or less paranoid or insecure than those that wish to own guns because they percieve a huge problem?

Can ya 'splain that please?

And when your done maybe think about the damage statements like that might do to. Though they are plentiful, I really hope I dont have to give an example.

[dysfunctional press]

45. if someone percieves a "huge problem"... why would they choose to add to it?

Can ya 'splain that please?

[beevul]

47. You first. N/T

[dysfunctional press]

54. for instance...say someone perceives the overabundance of guns in society as a bad thing-

a rational thought process would result in that person choosing not to add to the gun problem by arming himself.

a paranoid and/or insecure thought process in the same situation would most likely result in the person arming themselves, or at least trying to- in order to protect himself from what he perceives as a threat from all those people with guns who are out to get him.

so now it's your turn, and you got some splainin' to do.

[Na Gael]

14. I'm curious

What will change with gun control in your opinion?
Why are you using your personal opinion of hunting as justification? You, me, and others may not "get" hunting. Are you comfortable, imposing personal preferances on others? If so, then I do hope you are comfortable accepting, and following the imposition of others.

In my opinion, guns are a vehicle of expressing violence...Mass violence in some cases; However, I am not ready to waive my rights to other items "someone" decides could be used in a similar manner. Logic dictates that another vehicle will then be used to express violence. Shall we control it as well, whatever it may be?

Society is culprit. Until we as a collective group begin loving and providing for children as is only decent, it won't matter what is controlled or outright banned, we will continue to experience these outrages.

[JuniperLea]

16. Well said, Na Gael

And welcome to DU!

[Bullwinkle925]

30. You're correct. I should not use my personal opinion of hunting,

gun-ownership and one's love of guns for whatever reason as my impetus. It is difficult, however, to disassociate personal feelings when discussing this issue. Since a gun seems to be the 'weapon of choice' for many mass-killers, it would appear to me that if it wasn't available, perhaps a majority of these killings wouldn't happen. I think it is much easier for a person to actually participate in a VT or Columbine sort of scenario when they visualize themselves using a gun, than, say a machete or knife. That would bring the actual act of killing to a more personal level. I am in total agreement, as well, as to the structure of mental health care and discussion in this country.
The accessibility of handguns is the first issue that we can actually work on right now.
It is a shame that we have to debate this issue. It is a shame that there are those walking amongst us who envision for whatever reason the act of killing others and are fairly able to get their hands on a gun and ammunition in order to fulfill whatever fantasies they have. I've had two friends who (thankfully) have had guns shoved in their faces and have been robbed - one in a grocery parking lot and the other at an ATM.
The friend at the ATM was shot in the face, as well as her dog.
Thankfully, they both survived. She drove herself to the ER along with her pet.
Yes, it's personal. It's very personal now for the victims' families at VT.

As far as having to live with the implementation of other people's ideas upon my life - I do and we all do. We have laws in effect that dictate how fast I can drive, must wear a seatbelt, etc, etc. Laws have been enabled regarding smoking in public places that affects all of us.

It would be a good thing if only responsible people could own guns. That will never happen. Responsible people can have their 'off' days as well. I know that I'm spitting against the wind here, but those are my particular views.

By the way,

Welcome to DU!!
:hi:

[aikoaiko]

17. In your honor, I'll call my next gun Bullwinkle.

;)

[Bullwinkle925]

31. You're gonna name it after a 57 yr. old woman??

:shrug:

O well - your choice.

[realisticphish]

19. I've owned guns all my life

and so did my father, and his father.

Yet, gasp, none of us hunt, none of us have killed anyone, and none of us are militia nuts. We like target shooting, and I consider many of our guns to be art pieces (pennsylvania longrifles, etc).

Here's the bottom line. GUNS DO NOT MATTER. Violence may matter, social problems certainly matter, but banning guns does not have a single iota of impact on the desire of a human to kill another human. THAT's the problem here, not the fact that he used a gun to do so.

[High Plains]

37. It's pretty hard to kill 32 people with a club or a knife.

[karlrschneider]

39. Yes but it's not too hard to kill 168 with a bomb.

...
edit: Tomorrow is the 12th anniversary.

[realisticphish]

41. yet

if he didn't want to kill 32 people, it wouldn't have been a problem, would it? My point is that we need to focus on the reasons that he killed; gun control is only a bandaid for the problem

[Bullwinkle925]

48. But - IT ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE A GUN that is employed in massacres.

How do we get around this?

[Man_in_the_Moon]

68. Oklahoma City, 9-11, Bath Michigan, where were the guns? -nt

[MadHound]

22. Umm, even with gun control, up to and including banning all guns,

These types of incidents will still happen. It isn't the fact that we have guns in this country, it is the fact that our society itself is desperately sick. High stress, lots of work, lots of pressure, keeping up with th Jones, working all the time, with no social safety net, this all leads people right over the brink and into the abyss. Some go quietly insane, some not so quietly. And some, like Cho, feel that they need to take others with them.

Trying to cure these societal ills with a band aid like gun control or banning guns simply won't do the trick. People with always be able to find a way to kill their fellow humans in large numbers, even without guns. What we need to do is make the long term commitment and changes that will allow us all to live in a sane, safe society.

After all, Canada has more guns per capita than we do, yet they don't suffer from this sort of insanity. Meanwhile Russia has virtually a complete ban on privately owned firearms, and their murder rate is higher per capita than ours. Thus, as you can see, it isn't a matter of guns, it is a matter of the society that they are in.

[Bullwinkle925]

58. You're correct about Canada. But, unfortunately, until our society

becomes more 'mentally healthy' - (if ever that were to happen) -I would welcome gun control to save any more innocent lives on campuses, work settings, homes, streets, banks, Presidential motorcades, etc, etc, etc.

I'm prompted to watch, again, "Bowling for Columbine" this evening. This country is truly one sick puppy.

[EstimatedProphet]

76. I oppose gun control for a fix of that problem. Here's why:

What you are talking about will be used to keep us from ever fixing our real problems. the politicians will say "OK, we banned guns, problem solved." after that, we'll still have all the problems we have, and nothing will ever get done.

I don't want to try and fix our problems by doing something that won't fix our problems as an excuse to not do something to fix our problems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. It's not gun control

it is the society... we live in a very sick society

And if we do not correct the UNDERLYING reaons for this, take all the guns away, they'll use knives, so what's next, no knives?

I know this is a facile and easy answer... but it is not the actual answer

[Bullwinkle925]

34. You're right - it isn't an easy quick fix.

Dialogue - sincere and honest - must be opened within our culture to come to grips with what we can really do to put a halt to this senseless killing. We have too many facets to address - socioeconomically - racism - mental health. What do we do to go about initiating in a real fashion something concrete
to deal with this?
I suppose we must put more pressure on those who are representing us in the House & Senate. But, honestly, there must be more of a rallying among the citizens to effect change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. and here is a thread on this subject

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=690331&mesg_id=690331

[karlrschneider]

33. Don't want an abortion? Don't get one. Don't want a gun?

Same advice.

[Bullwinkle925]

35. I don't have one - and I hope one is never used against me.

I have no control over the second!

[karlrschneider]

38. I hope so. And I can't prove it but I feel very certain some of those 33 dead kids

wished for a few minutes they had one.

[Bullwinkle925]

43. I'm sure you're right.

Or - perhaps wondering how the hell they could escape? If only he hadn't been able to get his paws on the guns in the first place.

[anakie]

49. I am rabidly anti-gun

and nothing will change my mind. However, I am willing to compromise. Carry any concealed or even openly carry a gun if that is want you want - but you can only have one (1) bullet.

That should be enough to thwart any attacker, not do too much damage should an armed person go off the rails and perhaps make you feel more safe - as one of the major arguments seems to be.

[Sanctified]

56. The Problem with this...

Is you absolutely have no choice than to shoot an assailant, you can't shoot a warning shot.

[Raskolnik]

53. With all due respect, and to borrow from Big Trouble in Little China

You were no put on this earth to 'get it', Bullwinkle925.

It doesn't really matter that you don't understand the appeal of hunting any more than it matters if someone can't understand why I have a wall full of books I've already read.

If someone hunts legally and ethically, how does it harm you? Some people may prefer to hunt their own game from time to time rather than buying hormone and antibiotic laced, plastic wrapped, inhumanely butchered meat from the store. Some people prefer not. Why is that choice any of your business?

[Bullwinkle925]

63. Actually, no - I don't think it was without due respect.

Of course, you have no way of knowing that my husband is Chinese-American - but, that was actually a bit racist. Also, my hubby is an ex-Marine and is no lover of guns.
You're right - there are many, many things I'll never 'get'. The same probably goes for every person walking this earth. The issue of 'hunting' is always brought up whenever gun control again arises due to another massacre in this country. I have my feelings regarding hunting, but I choose not to hunt. I cannot, however, not choose to ride public transportation, go into public buildings or be out in nature without the fear of someone like Mr. Cho who might be lurking with his or her legally purchased gun. (Or illegally purchased gun). It, indeed, is one of the prices we pay for living in this gun-loving culture.
We can also make a choice whether or not to indulge in flesh-eating. We can also make a choice whether or not to trade at organic markets.

[Raskolnik]

64. I'm not sure how that really address my point.

Why does it matter at all to you if someone is hunting game legally and ethically? Why is it relevant that you can't personally understand someone else's pastime if it isn't harming you or anyone else?

(And, as a side note: A bit racist? Please--if referencing a movie title containing the word "China" in it, while making absolutely no racial observations whatsoever, is now racist, we're in some serious trouble as a society. This issue is charged enough without you injecting baloney like that into the discussion, and I'll thank you to refrain from making such ridiculous charges in the future.)

[Bullwinkle925]

74. I only bring up the issue of hunting due to the fact that it is the reason always touted

whenever the issue of 'gun control' comes up - usually after yet again another massacre such as the nature of what happened at VT.
There will be many more, I'm sure, as gun control will go nowhere due to the huge gun lobby and it's control over congress.
It is not my business to care or not care whether you hunt or not. Of course, I do care that it is always against some form of life that is completely unarmed, and therefore always at a disadvantage. Having said that - go on and hunt all you want.
Your not being an Asian-American, you don't understand that it's not the word "China" that I took offense to - it's the racist way of speaking to me that I took offense to. Go back and re-read your first sentence of your post. You probably don't think that it is offensive, but, believe me, if you were of an Asian culture you would have a differing view. I grew up in one of the reddest states ever - Kansas. I know when I hear racism.
Perhaps you really don't have that understanding of what can be construed racist or not? Just saying.

[Raskolnik]

77. Could you point out my "racist way of speaking" that offended you?

I'd be terribly interested in seeing it.

[Bullwinkle925]

79. "You were no put on this earth"

unless you made a typo and forgot the 't'? In that case, I stand corrected.

[Raskolnik]

84. Yes, that is a typo

Perhaps, instead of assuming racist motivations and making leaps of logic to find evidence, you might have actually *asked* me whether I was making a statement with racial connotations. Crazy thought, huh?

Next time you want to call someone a racist, I'd hope you have a little more to work with.

Have a lovely day.

[Bullwinkle925]

88. It did seem racist as you were quoting from a movie "Big Trouble in Little China" ...

having not seen that movie, what was I supposed to think? Perhaps spell check would help?

My apologies. Having had this conversation, can you see how some things can be perceived as racist? As a caucasian, I learned a great deal when I married my husband and became acutely aware of how hurtful some words can be. After the Don Imus news, it's amazing how destructive language is still being used. Not always by caucasians - other races as well. You seemed to be really taken aback - do you consider yourself not to be racist in any way?

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm off to meet an elderly woman-friend for lunch. Hope the rest of your day goes well, too.

[sendero]

62. Gun control.

... will work as well as street-drug control, which is to say it will not work at all. Get a clue already.

[SmokingJacket]

65. Certainly semi-automatic weapons -- a no-brainer. nt

[slackmaster]

67. Details please

What law or laws are you proposing, and what would you do about the tens of millions of semiautomatic firearms presently in circulation?

As a collector of curios and relics, any "ban" on semiautomatics could have a significant financial effect on me personally. So let's see the plan.

It's a "no-brainer" until you start thinking about what you really want to do. You're on.

[SmokingJacket]

70. I'm not a lawmaker, but I'd like to see a ban on their sale.

Sorry about the financial effect on you, but semi-automatics are designed to kill large numbers of people at once, not for personal recreation or protection.

Then a ban on their manufacture, plus a federally sponsored buy-back program.

[slackmaster]

71. OK

I'll reserve further comment until I see a concrete offer for the semiautomatics I own now.

I would add that you are probably smarter than most lawmakers, BTW.

[SmokingJacket]

80. Could be!

And I don't think any kind of gun regulation is easy...

[slackmaster]

92. Thank you for trying to be reasonable

Of course it's not easy. Tens of millions of Americans own a couple hundred million firearms. Gun ownership is a deep tradition for many of us. A huge majority of us are and always be responsible. Taking property is never easy.

I know your intentions are good, but don't be surprised when just about any kind of new gun control turns out to be a non-starter in Congress.

[Raskolnik]

81. That's not really accurate.

semi-automatics are designed to kill large numbers of people at once, not for personal recreation or protection

All "semi-automatic" means is that the firing of one round automatically ejects the spent cartridge and chambers the next. A large percentage of hunting shotguns & rifles are semi-automatic, and not at all designed to kill large numbers of people at once.

[derby378]

82. Wrong answer...

Unless your intent is to strip control of Congress from the Democrats in 2008, which I am confident is the last thing you want to happen.

[SmokingJacket]

94. I think a ban on semi-automatics is feasible, actually.

It is my sense -- and I may well be wrong -- that Americans' feelings about guns aren't the same for all weapons.

As it happens I'm not a big gun control person. But WTF is the point of these weapons that shoot out dozens and dozens of rounds at a time?

Your deer would be hash.

[slackmaster]

66. We do have gun control - If you think we need more, please be specific

Without details and specifics you are just tilting at windmills, Bullwinkle925.

[EstimatedProphet]

69. The point is, with at most tweaking of existing laws, this wouldn't have happened

We now know there was evidence that he shouldn't have been sold a gun. If he were taken into custody involuntarily for psychiatric observation in his past (NPR reported this yesterday) then he was in clear violation of the background check. If instead he was treated and released, then this is an issue which we should consider amending existing gun background check laws to include in some way. In either case, simply following the gun laws already on the books would have stopped this tragedy before it happened.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

75. Not true

He did not meet the mental health exclusion for gun ownership.

He was not adjudicated mentally defective, nor was he involuntarily committed to a mental institution.

[EstimatedProphet]

83. Well, that changes things

I know that after an event like this, lots of 'facts' are reported, and in many cases they shouldn't be. Looks like NPR is prone to this too.

I would still say that simply extending the background check to include people who have been under observation for psychological reasons would be wise. It wouldn't even have to be automatic exclusion - the gun could simply be held back until a professional has consulted the situation. That would have solved the problem right there, without adding significantly to gun control laws.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

85. Adding mental health to background checks

has been fought by the Medical/Mental health lobby.

[EstimatedProphet]

91. And I disagree with them on that point.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. It appears to me that with gun control, they'll still happen.

As evidenced by massacres in places with tight gun control, like Great Britain, or Japan. Or massacres in the U.S. that involved homemade bombs from common chemicals, such as OKC, columbine, or Bath.

[gravity]

90. I agree

Gun control would just make the criminal obtain a gun by some other means

[gollygee]

78. I'm afraid they'll happen regardless

People will always be able to get guns. And our culture of violence is much bigger than guns.

[bleedingheart]

86. Timothy McVeigh killed more people with doctored fertilizer

than Mr. Cho did..

When people whose world views are distorted by either mental illness or their political views...they can come up with whatever inventive means necessary they can to hurt as many folks as they choose

A woman can drown her kids in a bathtub.
A guy can start stalking and killing women with rope..or bludgeoning them as Bundy did..

In Mr. Cho's case...his destructive tool of choice was a gun.

Will banning guns really mean that people won't take up residence in a clock tower? don't think so...

and if anything all this focus on guns means we aren't dealing with the idea of making mental health services more available...

[derby378]

87. Ouch!

Can't argue with you there...

[spoony]

95. Best post I've seen on this whole mess.

You hit the nail square on the head: mental health is all but ignored in this country and we pay a daily price for it.

Sometimes that daily price is so high it grabs our attention, hopefully enough that we start to really get at the heart of the problem. If we don't, we probably won't have another moment of national dialogue to change things until the next needless tragedy.

[gravity]

89. Gun control wouldn't have stopped the shootings

Crazy people and criminals would be able to get guns one way or another. They are already planning on breaking the law, so it's stupid to think that gun laws would prevent them from obtaining a gun.

Look at the war on drugs. There are still plenty of drugs in society, and gun control laws will just move the market underground.

[Madspirit]

93. Suggested Thread...

I suggest this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x703040

...and you guys can pretend all you want but if this boy hadn't been able to get these guns from that gun shop, he would have gotten them somewhere else. Guns are easy to get. It was his mental illness that caused the crime. The guns were the instruments with which he carried out the crime. It would have been lovely if someone could have stopped him from having guns but as things are, he would have gotten them one way or another. It would have been lovelier if someone had REALLY dealt with his mental illness. Then no one would have ever had to deal with his guns.