Social Dilemma. I just got back from a party in my neighborhood

[Ineeda]

hosted by a friend who is as liberal and as much a supporter of Obama as I am. There were about 40 guests and the party was to celebrate the 50+ year anniversary of a dear couple. The husband has, at most, a couple of weeks to live. Many friends of the couple were there, some of whom I did not know. I joined a small group in the "smoking section" and we chatted pleasantly until the subject turned to taxes - property taxes and state income tax. (We live in Florida - no state income tax.) Somehow the subject of Obama came up and one woman turned to the man sitting next to her and, using her fingers, made a 'shooting gun' gesture. The man laughed and said "Yeah, damn right. And Nancy, too. And we gotta kill this health care, while we're at it." I was horrified and simply said, "I'm in the wrong place here," and moved on to another group. I feel bad that I didn't call them out, but didn't want to make a scene in my friend's home and, perhaps, ruin the party for a dying man. Would anyone here have done something different?

[JohnnyLib2]

1. Not under the circumstances.

Another time, another place. :thumbsup:

[ZombieHorde]

2. I think you did the right thing, but I am socially incompetent. nt

[havocmom]

3. You did well. It was not the time/place to get in a robust political dust up

But, if you run into them again.....

[katandmoon]

4. I think you did the right thing.

[TheCowsCameHome]

5. You did the right thing.

Smart.

[Ruby the Liberal]

6. Time & Place and all that

You did better than I may have. Especially if these folks are on Medicare....

[Sebass1271]

7. I would have said something. They didnt respect your friend's

party and your friend's dying husband to shoot their political views, dirty and evil propaganda. Too bad you let them get away with it in front of the entire group.

I wouldn't have started an argument, but before leaving the group I would have said something to that woman's behavior of shooting gesture the president. That was uncalled for.
But then again, it is just me. And I usually defend my ideals.

[seabeyond]

8. you did call them out in a graceful and appropriate manner. they understood exactly

what you were saying.

[Old Codger]

9. you did

the right thing for sure showed some class unlike those dips

[Warpy]

10. What total jerks

You took the high road this time. No, it doesn't feel good. But you didn't stay there and give them tacit agreement. I'm sure you looked as appalled as you felt when you said you were in the wrong place and left.

Under the circumstances, that was enough.

[kiva]

11. You did the right thing. Not your house, not your party.

The couple were presumably friends or family of the couple celebrating the anniversary, and you are correct that any conflict would likely have upset them; as someone said above, if you see them again, there's plenty of time to call them on their behavior.

[Marr]

12. Call them out? What's wrong with arguing a point?

Granted, the "gun" thing was obscene, but the second bit-- the thing about "killing healthcare"... seems more like you just missed a chance to have a conversation. Sounds to me like you were in a perfect setting to make a good argument, too.

Simply disagreeing with someone and arguing a point isn't rude. I've read several accounts from people of incidents like this and it always makes me wonder-- is everyone really this frightened to engage people who don't already agree with them on everything?

[Sebass1271]

14. exacttly my point below

[Fumesucker]

22. Trouble is that such confrontations can easily turn into a screaming match..

I've had it happen to me before back when bushie was still POTUS, if you say anything against some of these people's beliefs they will get very aggressive and in your face.

It wasn't the time or place for that sort of thing and the situation could have deteriorated in seconds. Especially so given that the two individuals would have mad that sort of comment at a function for someone on their deathbed, that makes it clear they were insensitive and unlikely to take disagreement quietly.

[Sebass1271]

25. Why did it need to become confrontantional? On her way out

she could have said something to counter the "kill the health care" comment or to that woman using a gesture with her hands as to death to obama.. that was really uncalled for.

yes, we liberals hated Bush with passion, but we never, EVER wished his death or for him to be killed. These ppl need to be put in their place.

[Fumesucker]

31. Until you've had it happen to you I wouldn't expect you to understand..

I don't mean that in a negative way, just that I've had the personal experience of seeing a Bible study group disintegrate into a frothing shouting match in a few seconds from a casual remark and a fairly mild response. Honestly I wouldn't have believed it unless I had seen it myself.

Anyone that would make a "shooting" gesture about a POTUS around a bunch of people they don't know well if at all is not wrapped entirely tight to start with.

[Sebass1271]

39. actually, it has happened to me! I have made my comments

and the repubs kept total silence. I think they were not ready to be challenged.

[Fumesucker]

53. Clearly you haven't had it degenerate into a shouting match..

Like I said, if you haven't had it happen you won't appreciate how fast the situation can get out of hand.

[Sebass1271]

58. apparently, you have and now sound scare. too bad

you remind me of Reid

[Fumesucker]

63. No, I just don't want to ruin what could be somone's last few hours on our planet..

It's called being respectful and practicing the Golden Rule.

I wouldn't want some jerk starting a pointless political argument at such an event for a loved one of mine, so I wouldn't do it to another person.

[Marr]

29. Sure they can. Airplanes can crash, cars can break down...

but you don't just sit in your house all the time.

We're talking about a simple discussion. You can't just go through life on mute because *someone* might yell at you for disagreeing. Besides, I really think the assholes are a small minority. Most people can enjoy a good conversation, and by "good", I mean "at least two people disagree about something".

[Fumesucker]

34. It wasn't the "someone might yell"..

It was the venue, someone's deathbed is not an appropriate place.

If it was just a casual party with no real point other than socializing I would have a different opinion but this was literally a life and death situation.

Keep in mind the right wingers have been trained for decades now to exhibit false and over the top outrage, a lot of them seriously don't know how to disagree agreeably.

Just watch the shows on TV, very rarely is there calm discussion where people take turns making points, it's one person talking over or outshouting another or several others. That is the modus operandi of the debate in America these days.

[Sebass1271]

41. since that is the operation in america today, you

MUST SHUT UP AND PUT UP..

I see your point. :sarcasm:

[Fumesucker]

52. If you want to turn somone's death bed into a pointless political free for all..

I don't think there's much point in us continuing this discussion.

You aren't going to convince anyone of anything, I've been online since the days of 300 baud acoustic modems and Atari computers and I can count the number of times I've changed someone's mind about something serious without taking my shoes off and I've never once done it in a single encounter, it's always taken time.

[Sebass1271]

who is discussing changing someone's mind?

we all know we can't change repubs minds, what we are discussing is defending your ideals and principals.

[Fumesucker]

61. I'm a pretty strong idealist..

There is a time and place for defending ones ideals and principles and at a party for someone who has at most a couple of weeks to live is not that time or place.

And actually, I have changed Repubs' minds before, not very many but it has happened.

[Sebass1271]

54. who is discussing changing someone's mind?

we all know we can't change repubs minds, what we are discussing is defending your ideals and principals.

[Sebass1271]

55. who is discussing changing someone's mind?

we all know we can't change repubs minds, what we are discussing is defending your ideals and principles.

[Sebass1271]

57. apologies, apparently, i clicked on my post three times.

[Fumesucker]

67. No apology necessary.. It happens to all of us sometimes.. n/t

[Marr]

51. That sounds more like a battered wife than a polite guest.

If a person acts like an ass, that's *their* problem. It's not somehow your fault for giving them an excuse.

The OP described this gathering as a party to commemorate a couple's 50th anniversary, not a sullen gathering round a death bed.

If someone starts talking and you disagree, you have every right to start a respectful discussion on the subject. The OP chose to slink away and come to a friendly crowd of (apparently) like-minded people who are just as scared of discussion and anxious to reassure the OP that this quiet withdrawal was actually the noble move.

I don't think it was. I think it was chickenshit. Sorry, OP.

You don't have to yell and scream. But Jesus Christ, are people really this scared to just say, "I disagree with you"? Do they really need a hundred people to line up and pat them back and tell them they were right to stay mute?

[Fumesucker]

56. From the OP, a direct verbatim quote:

"The husband has, at most, a couple of weeks to live. "

Close enough to a death bed for most practical purposes.

[Marr]

60. Another verbatim quote:

"There were about 40 guests and the party was to celebrate the 50+ year anniversary of a dear couple."

People from the neighborhood gathering for a *celebration*, not family gathered round a death bed. I don't know if the OP has a crystal ball, so I'm not exactly sure what that additional piece of conjecture was about, unless it was to lend a little credibility to the "I couldn't respond" position.

[Fumesucker]

65. Would you want somone starting a poltical argument at such an event?

I know I wouldn't want pointless political argument if it was my loved one.

And yes, it would be pointless, you aren't going to convince anyone and there is an excellent chance it would get heated.

There is a time and a place for political discussion and it's not at that sort of event.

[Marr]

69. This was *exactly* the time and place for it.

A party celebrating a neighbor couple's anniversary... a few people gathered smoking and talking. If that's not the place to have a political discussion, then what is?

[Sebass1271]

75. apparentlyat their non-existent next reunion, where

suppos. the OP will have the opportunity to put them in their place...

[Fumesucker]

78. Somewhere someone isn't about to die?

Not in the home of someone who is but weeks away from death (apparently according to their doctor, I'm guessing).

The people who made the original comment were disrespectful and pursuing the topic at the time would have just added to the disrespect, all of course IMO.

If you could guarantee it could remain low key it would be one thing, but in this day and time there is no guarantee of that.

I had my 85 year old father in law pour a fucking beer on my head in public because we had a political disagreement once, and he was far from a right wing whacko, it's amazing how quickly political talks can deteriorate.

[Sebass1271]

64. you are good and obviously more articulate

than I am. What you are expressing are my sentiments exactly. Everyone seems to be in a scare state of mind, having a respectable conversation where one can disagree with is out of the question these days.

I am sure that if OP would have respectfully said something in a "respectful" manner, that woman would have reserved her hand gesture.

[Marr]

72. I wouldn't say I'm more articulate at all, but thank you very much.

Have you read Age of American Unreason? I read part of it... it touched on some of this. The author was talking about how her audiences are filled with people who already agree with her, where 50 years ago there would've been just as many people who disagreed, but came to hear her argument.

People put themselves in little bubbles now. It's weird.

[Sebass1271]

77. No. But I will look it up. Who is the author?

[Marr]

80. Susan Jacoby, if I recall correctly.

The book is dry as hell-- fair warning. :P I haven't managed to finish it yet myself, but what I have read was interesting. I think she did a bunch of interviews promoting it, too-- probably on YouTube somewhere.

[Sebass1271]

82. I will look it up. Thank you!

I'll read some reviews before puchasing it. : )

[Marr]

84. You bet!

:D

[Sebass1271]

13. Typical Mentality of Democrats. and then you see them

here complaining on Reid's lack of cojones when they can't even defend their point of view themselves.
ugh...

[HughMoran]

18. Nice

Broad-brush attack on Democrats on Democratic Underground.

[Sebass1271]

I am a Democrat myself. and very fierce on my ideals.

thank you.

[Sebass1271]

23. I am a Democrat myself. and very fierce on my ideals.

thank you.

[HughMoran]

15. That was a proper reaction

You can rip their heads off later for putting you in that awkward situation...

[Sebass1271]

17. when? when will she see them again? duer said first time she

saw them..

[HughMoran]

19. What do you care?

:wtf:

[Sebass1271]

20. well, your point seems to be that she can get back to them

nxt time she sees them. She missed an opportunity to portrait a different of view. That is my point.

[HughMoran]

21. Oh, well

It all depends on your pain tolerance. You never know, she may see these people again somewhere.

[Morning Dew]

30. She'll Probably see them at the funeral. Want her to start a fist fight there?

Geesh.

[Ineeda]

24. I never said that - I said

I didn't know them, not that it was the first time I saw them. There will be another opportunity, a more appropriate time for 'discussion'.

[Sebass1271]

27. didn't know them but you have seen them before?

[bobbolink]

35. I'm voting with the sensitive people who say you did the right thing.

Here's what I'm wondering tho..... If you have seen these people before, could you get an address for them?

They clearly were talking about a threat to the president. I think it's worth reporting.

I really do.

[Sebass1271]

43. Every threat to the president should be reported

no matter how mild they seem (coming from a woman). They are still threads.

[bobbolink]

48. I think you mean "threat", and yes, it needs to be reported.

"Keeping your powder dry" at the party, and sparing the dying man a scene, but then taking action in this way will at the very least send a strong message that the woman's head is definitely in the wrong place.

She may get angry, or she may learn something.

But, either way, her threat needs to be investigated.

It is illegal.

Not to mention stoooooooopid.

[Marr]

33. Huh? Why?

I assume the OP is an adult. Do you really want to go through life in a little ideological bubble? Would you really be angry at your *friend* for inviting you to a place where you were exposed to ideas you don't agree with? Are you that fragile?

This is amazing to me.

[Sebass1271]

37. Read my post above. As a matter of fact, i am seeing it the

opposite. I am seeing you guys to be in constant "mute" or "silence" to not "offend" the other party while the other party is actually pissing on you.
It is not starting a fight, it is defending what is right.

[Marr]

42. I was actually responding to Hugh.

I think you and I pretty much agree here.

[Sebass1271]

45. Sorry.. : )

[Marr]

47. Haha, no problem.

Friendly fire is very common. :P

[Sebass1271]

38. Read my post above. As a matter of fact, i am seeing it the

opposite. I am seeing you guys to be in constant "mute" or "silence" to not "offend" the other party while the other party is actually pissing on you.
It is not starting a fight, it is defending what is right.

[HughMoran]

44. Yes, as a matter of fact I do not hang with selfish hate-filled ignoramuses

If more people were like me, perhaps the right-wing haters would change their behavior. I have had several people change behavior rather than be shunned. Try it sometime - it's called having principals.

[Sebass1271]

46. It is not about "shunning anyone" it is about what you said,

having principals

[Marr]

66. No, it's called living in a bubble.

It takes a profound lack of intellectual curiosity and a skittish nature. See GW Bush, 2001-2009.

[HughMoran]

73. Now you know me from one sentence?

I'd mop the streets with you in real life (verbally), so, there's that.

[Marr]

76. I don't need your autobiography to respond to a comment.

*edit comments for being too snarky*

Look, I don't know about you personally. I'm talking about the position you described.

[HughMoran]

81. Sometimes people are too stupid and obstinate to have a rational discussion with

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I spend an awful lot of time straightening out misguided (but otherwise good) people. But, people who want to shoot the President may not be the most receptive to logical arguments, though I wasn't there and have to go by my personal experience with people who act that stupidly.

[TicketyBoo]

91. I have an

enormous amount of intellectual curiosity combined with a skittish nature.

I think I am in trouble. (Doomed to either tamping down the curiosity or live with being skittish all the time; not a happy choice.)

I wouldn't have made an ugly episode into a confrontation at someone else's party. Good way not to get invited anywhere.

[TicketyBoo]

92. Besides

what's done is done. No need to worry about it now.

[Marr]

95. What I'm saying here is that political discussion is not inherently

an "ugly confrontation". Jackasses sometimes make them into such, but jackasses ruin lots of things. Adults can discuss ideas without throwing things. If someone does throw something, that's *their* fault, not yours.

You can't-- and shouldn't-- model your behavior around jackasses.

[TicketyBoo]

96. I didn't say anything about an "ugly confrontation."

I said I wouldn't have turned an ugly episode into a confrontation under these circumstances. The whole scene had the potential of becoming much worse than it was.

Wise move to just back away from it. Discretion is the better part of valor.

[JanMichael]

16. You did exactly the right thing.

The party was about the man who is losing his life--

Good call.

[Incitatus]

26. There was nothing you could to say to change their minds. nt

[supernova]

28. You did the right thing

The party was about the man who was dying and giving him and his beloved a nice memory.

The stupid people in the corner, you can confront another day in another setting.

[donco6]

32. I think you were as graceful as you could be.

I would have done the same thing.

[mitchtv]

36. well handled

a real adult reaction. Grace and firmness

[Ignis]

40. You should have said, "I don't smoke with you."

:hide:

[Sebass1271]

49. LOL!

[smalll]

79. Damn! You beat me to it!

:rofl: You have to be pretty quick around here!

[Ignis]

85. And if you blink, you miss an in-joke.

;)

[TicketyBoo]

93. Or

"I must not be smokin' what you're smokin'!"

[Motown_Johnny]

50. I would have been rude to them and said something before walking away. You showed

more class than I would have


But I would have attacked them on the taxes issue first and they never would have felt comfortable enough to make that remark or jesture

[Sebass1271]

59. Same here. I would DEF have said something...

[Gman2]

62. You simply state, keep away from me, or I will knock your ass out, goodbye.

[Sebass1271]

83. outstanding!!

[mitchum]

68. I can be a terribly venomous person, but I think you did the right thing...

"but didn't want to make a scene in my friend's home and, perhaps, ruin the party for a dying man"

You are a very good and decent person

[JVS]

70. I think your judgement is correct.

If they do shit at the wake though, drop the dime on them to the secret service.

[dysfunctional press]

71. don't they have conceal/carry in florida? why weren't you packin'?

although a silencer probably would have been called for in that particular situation.

but- absent a piece, you did the right thing.

[ismnotwasm]

74. You did good

It sounded like civilized folks and a civilized party, minus the ones implying they would cheerfully murder the president. Some sick people right there.

I'm not civilized, but I can be crafty when needs be among civilized folk. That being said, I would have said something very confrontational and rude, and certainly not appropriate at the party of a dying man. (Unless I knew the gentleman in question would appreciate it, then no holds barred)

It sounds like the circumstances needed more like how you responded.

[Ineeda]

86. thanks for all your responses - both pro and con

First, let me say that in political discussions, I usually give at least as good as I get but I doubt I've ever convinced a right winger to think anything close to what I think. It's an understatement to say that they are rarely open to opposing points of view. I have a pretty short fuse sometimes and am not diplomatic in the face of stupidity, cruelty, hypocrisy or intolerance. I certainly could have tossed out a zinger or two as I left that group, but to be honest, I think I was shocked by both the attitude and the inappropriate timing. So tonight, being sensitive to the circumstances of the evening, I now believe I did do the right thing.

[valerief]

87. Too bad you didn't "get clumsy" and spill a tall drink on "someone's" lap.

:rofl:

[ecstatic]

88. Not everyone is good at confrontation. You did what was right for you

You walked away which is better than just sitting there and smiling along.

[Zywiec]

89. You did the right thing, but I'm surprised so many agree

Usually, it's high-5's to anyone who starts screaming and ranting at someone they disagree with politically.

[Le Taz Hot]

90. As a long-time big mouth,

I would have done the same thing. I probably would have put a little more bite to my quip as I walked off, something like, "The I.Q. level here just dropped significantly" and THEN walked off but I wouldn't have gotten into a debate. Not your house and not your event. People actually know better than to do/say something like that when they're at my house. They'd give me no choice but to reduce them a quivering blob of protoplasm. But that's just me. :evilgrin:

[Bigmack]

94. Would have made a little gun...

with my fingers and slowly, deliberately "shot" each one of them. And left the group.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

97. You Did The Right Thing.

Everyone's entitled to their own belief and starting a fight over it will just make you look dumb. Based on the way they spoke, it is highly unlikely that you would've gotten anywhere with them with polite discussion. Why try then? The only option left is to 'fight' the issue with them, which just ends in all parties being frustrated and you looking like a moron. Sometimes the best thing is to just let things be, hold your breath, and hope the conversation turns back to normal quickly (even say something off topic to get it goin in a different direction). Either that, or get up and politely leave like you did. Nothing wrong with the way you reacted at all.