Hey DU, I'm about to tell you about yourself...

[Subdivisions]

When I first came here, you were a bunch of fucking assholes. The reason I joined was to respond to those who, at the time, were defending "illegal immigrants" being here in the U.S. I was a moderate Democrat who differed with Progressives in two primary ways: 1.) I was in construction for 25 years and was very frustrated at the state of my trade due to the nearly complete takeover of construction in Texas by Hispanics. Although I had no problem personally with Hispanics and in fact had learned some of their language and had many friends and loved their food, I absolutely hated the "system" that would allow them to put me on the sidelines. 2.) Although I had no moral problem with homosexuality, I was not particularly fond of the idea of gay marriage. Those two things placed me squarely to the right of progressivism. But, thanks to DU, I have learned that "illegal immigrants" are simply people just like me just trying to make it in this world. I have also learned that, if two people love each other and want to share their lives and have all the rights everyone else has, they should be allowed to marry - and to marry in the way they see fit, whether by religious ceremony or state-sanctioned marriage.

There have been some other things I've learned from DU that has brought me further left and made me more progressive. I love you all and I really appreciate you giving me the understanding I needed to make my life richer and my horizons broader. I'm a much better person for it. So, thank you DU! I salute you!

[uppityperson]

1. Indeed and welcome

and never once did you complain of being a victim.

[Betsy Ross]

2. Good for You. Good for Us. n/t

[Skittles]

3. people like you

give me hope - yes INDEED

[HCE SuiGeneris]

4. Good to have you here.

:thumbsup: :hi:

You still involved with the green energy company?

[Subdivisions]

6. Absolutely. Makes mah livin' sellin' da solar panels online now =). n/t

[HCE SuiGeneris]

11. Excellent to hear.

[asdjrocky]

5. That's what it's about dude.

Before I got here I couldn't spell DLC, now I've learned to hate it. I think you hit the nail on the head for one of the best things about this place, the dialog can change minds and lives.

Good on you.

[SidDithers]

7. We're still a bunch of fucking assholes...

but our hearts are in the right place :hi:

Sid

[Subdivisions]

8. Hey Sid...

:hi:

[Fuzz]

14. +1

[lonestarnot]

9. Some of the best people on the planet share this place!

Others come here only to stink the joint up one side and down the other. Welcome and glad your positions softened. Live and let live is always the conclusion I come back to whenever in doubt. Pugs don't allow that philosophy. Apart from their greedy bullshit, I think that's why I hate them, in most cases.

[rwheeler31]

10. Thank you for thinking and learning.

[valerief]

12. Yep, the robber barons are the enemies, not the ordinary joes. Congrats on being a mensch!

:applause:

[Brother Buzz]

17. Robber Barons want ordinary Joes fighting among themselves

makes their job all that much easier.

[valerief]

60. Yep, divide and conquer. Been that way for centuries. nt

[Toasterlad]

21. +1

I never understood why people got mad at the GOVERNMENT if they lost their job to immigrants; it's the corporations willing to hire them at slave wages that are the problem.

[mistertrickster]

33. Totally agree. That's how progressives lost their way . . . we shifted from

"class struggle" (although we didn't call it that for obvious reasons) to "identity politics."

As if Madame Dupont (woman) or Oprah (black) or Elton John (gay) or Bernie Madoff (Jewish) is more discriminated against with their massive wealth than some poor white boy growing up in a dirt floor cabin somewhere . . .

The white male power structure is a myth. Unless by "white and male," one means "rich." The discrimination against the poor makes every other kind of discrimination pale almost to insignificance.

On edit--they didn't shoot King when he was overthrowing Jim Crow laws in the South. They shot King when he started speaking out against the robber barons and their wars of empire.

[drm604]

13. And now you're a fucking asshole like the rest of us!

I'm joking, of course. :hi:

[Harry Monroe]

49. I wear the "asshole" label proudly!!

Especially when I'm called one by a Republican !!

[Vickers]

15. Best. OP opening line. EVAR!!!

:thumbsup:

I have had my mind opened up quite a bit since I got here, mainly about GLBT stuff, especially the "T" part.

A lot of it I was grossly unaware of, and frankly was insensitive to. Just ignorance on my part.

I'm getting better...not perfect, but better.

[The Straight Story]

16. Still a lot of assholes here

And I am their hemorrhoid :rofl:

welcome to DU!

[Subdivisions]

38. I wouldn't go that far, TSS! Maybe a polyp, but certainly not a full-blown hemorrhoid! n/t

[Harry Monroe]

45. True story!! Growing up I had a dog named "Hemorrhoid"! My dad named the dog and it stuck.

He was always telling us that the dog was a pain in the ass!!

[RedCloud]

63. What stuck? Give us the poop on this story?

[Harry Monroe]

74. The name of course!!

[dmr]

18. It's putting your feet in someone else's shoes

That's how I look at it.

I've always been a liberal. Yet, the older I get, the more liberal I get. I thank DU and the internet for help with this progress.

The changes in your thinking are because you are secure enough in yourself to be open to new ideas, processes and cultures. It says a lot about you.

So while you salute DU, I salute you!
:fistbump:

[eridani]

19. I've learned one thing from conservative Dems

To wit, not to be so kneejerk about gun control. I've come to appreciate that rural and small town social controls provide control over the behavior of gun owners (not so much in the anonymous big city), and that us city mice need to allow for that.

[Blue_Tires]

29. +1

before i came here, I never even knew liberals carried guns (i used to have a 'ban-them-all' philosophy), but several DUers have helped me see the issue with new light over the years...

[tekisui]

20. Great post! This is what makes DU still a great place!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[malaise]

22. Nice post

Rec

[Jester Messiah]

23. For me, it's like this:

I don't want to deny anybody their happiness just because whatever constitutes that happiness is outside of my comfort range. That's the bottom line.

[snooper2]

24. Now we just got to work on the chemtrails...

and the fact that yes, Barbara Olson is dead...



:rofl:

[graywarrior]

25. How dare you make me feel good about this place!

I still won't free the duck!

[Peacetrain]

26. Well all I have to say about that op is this!!

:pals:

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. You're half right.

Labor immigration still needs to stop, the US economy cannot grow fast enough to even accommodate our own citizens, let alone an unrestricted wave of labor immigration.

The purpose of unrestricted immigration is to drive wages down.

[DefenseLawyer]

28. As for undocumented workers- Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[KharmaTrain]

30. Also Those Who Really Profit...

The undocumented workers wouldn't be an issue if there were no jobs. Someone hires them (usually a US citizen) who is looking for cheap labor and avoiding paying taxes and health care. They make the money and then let the undocumented fend for themselves and take the heat. If there were huge fines and prosecution against those who exploit this situation we'd see changes and fast. But for way too many, it's easier to blame those who are the least capable of defending themselves while letting the fat cats slide.

[Harry Monroe]

48. Exactly!! You can't blame a human being for trying to simply earn money to support himself..

..and his family. Hate the system, not the person.

[Romulox]

31. So now you've learned to love the "system that would allow them to put (you) on the sidelines"?

I don't get it. :shrug:

[Subdivisions]

36. No. I've learned to empathize with my Hispanic brothers and sisters

to the point where my empathy for them overcomes my feelings about the "system". My position before had been to enforce the immigration laws and send them back home. I now know that, while we can disagree with the system that brought them here, we don't have to support a position that would send them back to a place that diminishes their lives and livelihoods.

[Romulox]

43. That's two different ways of describing the same position.

:shrug:

[Ichingcarpenter]

32. Kindness is the language

which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul. Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more.


Mark Twain........

but of course you have read him.

[sonias]

34. Good for you!

The first step is looking inward. All of us can learn something new!

:applause:

Sonia

[Hatchling]

35. Thanks for saying that.

I've also changed my outlook on a bunch of things since joining DU and become more educated and more firmly attached to those things that I think are the "right" thing to do as opposed to the "expedient" or "pragmatic" thing.

[Subdivisions]

37. You're welcome =). Let me take this opportunity to thank all of

you who have made such nice and funny comments and for the recs my OP has received. So, thanks again, DU! =)

[Stumbler]

39. Nicely said

One of my biggest problems with RWers (and some liberals, though the RW seems more prone to such behavior), is that they severely limit the number of news organizations they "rely upon." It's not surprising with the amount of time Fox and Limbaugh use to bash the NYT, NBC, MSNBC, "liberal radio," and other media outlets who may disagree with them. And it always astonishes me when they try to tell me what it means to be liberal, a progressive or a Dem: "You want to open the flood gates to illegals! And dismantle the military! You want to surrender to our enemies! And destroy marriage! And let all the rapists and murderers out of jail! And you want to kill Christianity and allow rampant abortions-on-demand!! That's what it means to be liberal, and I know, cause Rush told me..."

I've often said to my RW family and friends that if they just shut off Fox and Limbaugh for a week in favor of Stephanie, Thom, Randi and Rachel, they'd get an honest look at what it means to be 'progressive' or 'liberal.' Sadly, only a few have risen to the challenge. But of those few who were willing enough to take my advice (and were not afraid to open their minds or try thinking for themselves), I've actually seen moderation in their views, much like your post. Now if I could get them to check DU every now and again, that might really tip the scales...

[xxqqqzme]

53. They would have to substitute

DU for drudge. When my sister told me the first place she went for news was drudge report, I knew all was lost.

[barbtries]

40. thank you so much for posting

i don't know how many times i feel like i'm preaching to the choir here, and it is great to know that hearts and minds are being changed, for the better imo, on the site where i more or less live. :)

[Subdivisions]

41. Hearts and minds are indeed being changed here. Within the discourse here

is the means to do that. And all we have to do is continue what we're doing and know that there's people like me that are listening, learning, and benefitting.

[NoSheep]

42. Wow. That's such a nice thing to hear. That is exactly the reason I keep reading the

depressing news and listening to the depressing news and researching topics I learn about in the depressing news...because THAT is the only way to combat this shit: Learn the truth and Educate your fellow humans. I'm bookmarking this to show to the next person who tells me I'm wasting my time and that there's "no point" in caring anymore.

[Harry Monroe]

44. Greetings from one asshole to another!!

And that's meant in a good way!!:smoke:

[Subdivisions]

57. Allow me to clarify the "asshole" part of my OP...

I had actually been responding in a roundabout way after reading this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6856475&mesg_id=6856475

The now-TSed OP was schooling us about ourselves. It got me to thinking about my experience with being schooled in the early days of my DU experience. I know now that the "assholes" schooling me then did not include ALL of DU and I now no longer see them as assholes.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

46. I'm practically in tears reading this. Please tell us...

What was it that allowed you to let your defenses down and really listen and think about what was being said? Was there an approach by certain DUers that stands out in your mind?

[Subdivisions]

55. No, not a certain approach but rather just the character of this community. As I read

more about certain issues, in some cases my own positions just couldn't hold. I did, and do, have an open mind and I was able to realize that my position, for instance, on corporations being benign and beneficial was patently wrong. I was asleep for a very long time and very rarely had I ever stopped to consider and really think about things. I took the position of those around me a lot of the time. Still, I had much to learn and being here at DU helped me to learn and to grow.

I hope this answers your question =).

[GoddessOfGuinness]

76. Well I'm glad you woke up. :-)

I wish there was some magic formula to pull republicans out of their slumber...

[closeupready]

47. I'm going to bookmark this thread, and post the link the next time someone says, "posting on DU is

pointless and a waste of energy". Happens WAY too often, and I'm glad to see that you are an example of how false that idea is. Cheers :hi:

[Subdivisions]

56. Thanks. I'm sure I'm not the only DUer who was enlightened by being here. n/t

[zonkers]

50. Aw man... you are a good dude.

[Hekate]

51. You just made my day. Now THIS is what the Big Tent for Democrats is about!

:hug:

Hekate

[bertman]

52. Sounds like you have an open mind and a willingness to change. That's all it takes. DU

just gave you lots of good reasons to change. Thanks for being a progressive Democrat.

[fascisthunter]

54. Here's another Kick...

[Gman]

58. You were in good company. Cesar Chavez hated illegal immigrants

and made no secret of it. They'll work for less and undercut anyone else around for their own gain and screw anyone else. Chavez knew this.

[EFerrari]

59. That's a right wing fantasy. How many of the workers in the

UFW do you think were undocumented? Lots.

[Gman]

73. From Wikipedia, as just the quickest source

but you can find much more of this around if you care to look:

Immigration

The UFWA during Chávez's tenure was committed to restricting immigration. César Chávez and Dolores Huerta fought the Bracero Program that existed from 1942 to 1964. Their opposition stemmed from their belief that the program undermined US workers and exploited the migrant workers. Their efforts contributed to Congress ending the Bracero Program in 1964. In 1973, the UFW was one of the first labor unions to oppose proposed employer sanctions that would have prohibited hiring undocumented immigrants. Later during the 1980s, while Chávez was still working alongside UFW president, Dolores Huerta, the cofounder of the UFW, was key in getting the amnesty provisions into the 1986 federal immigration act.<8>
On a few occasions, concerns that undocumented migrant labor would undermine UFW strike campaigns led to a number of controversial events, which the UFW describes as anti-strikebreaking events, but which have also been interpreted as being anti-immigrant. In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valleys to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of undocumented immigrants as strikebreakers. Joining him on the march were both Reverend Ralph Abernathy and US Senator Walter Mondale.<9> In its early years, Chávez and the UFW went so far as to report undocumented immigrants who served as strikebreaking replacement workers, as well as those who refused to unionize, to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.<10><11><12><13><14>
In 1973, the United Farm Workers set up a "wet line" along the United States-Mexico border to prevent Mexican immigrants from entering the United States illegally and potentially undermining the UFW's unionization efforts.<15> During one such event in which Chávez was not involved, some UFW members, under the guidance of Chávez's cousin Manuel, physically attacked the strikebreakers, after attempts to peacefully persuade them not to cross the border failed.<16><17><18>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Chavez

[EFerrari]

77. What you have to understand is that Cesar Chavez did not hate anybody

and certainly not undocumented workers. Except maybe strikebreakers -- that's another thing altogether. That's not opposition to undocumented workers but opposition to anti-labor thugs and tools.

Peter Matthiesson has written about this in Sal Si Puedes, his Chavez book. I found this blurb on line that speaks to the crux of his position:

Under the law, no green-carder is supposed to work in a field where a labor dispute has been certified, but enforcement has been desultory, to say the least, and although almost half of the members of Chavez’s union are not United States citizens, many Mexicans have become strikebreakers. As long as farm workers are excluded from the provisions of the National Labor Relations Act, they have no legal means of forcing employers to negotiate. When their strike was subverted by imported scabs and anti-picketing injunctions, they resorted to what the growers call an “illegal and immoral” boycott.

Chavez said that many of the green-carders, and especially those who intend to return to Mexico, felt they could do better than the union wage scale by working furiously for non-union growers on a piecework basis; others refused to join the union out of ignorance, they had never heard of a union, or out of fear of reprisal. “Out at Schenley, we have a contract there now, there was a guy named Danny,” Chavez said. “Danny was so anti-union that he went to the management and said, ‘Give me a gun. I’ll go out and kill some of those strikers.’ He just hated us, and he didn’t know why. He was working inside when we came with the picket line, and I guess he felt guilty about not joining us, so he went too far. And also, he told me later, “I didn?t know what a union was. I never heard of a union?I had no idea what it was or how it worked. I came from a small village down in Mexico.’ You see? It’s the old story. He was making more money than he had ever seen in Mexico, and the union was a threat. Anyway, we won there, and all the guys who went out on strike, they got their jobs back. And, man, they wanted to clean house, and they wanted to get Danny, and I said no. ‘Well, he doesn’t want to join the union,’ they said. ‘And if he doesn’t join the union, he can’t work here.’ And so I challenged them. I said, ‘One man threatens you’ Do you know what the real challenge is? Not to get him out but to get him in. If you are good organizers, you will get him, but you’re not…you’re lazy!’ So they went after him, and the pressure began to build against him. He was mad as hell. He held out for three months, and he was encouraged by the Anglos’the white guys. They had the best jobs … mechanics and all … and they didn’t want to join the union, either. But finally Danny saw the light, and they did, too. It took about six months before we actually got down to negotiating a contract after we won the election, and by the time we got around to setting up a negotiating committee Danny had not only been converted but been elected to the committee.

. . .

Being undocumented doesn't automatically mean being anti-labor. The hotel workers union found that when they brought undocumented workers into the union, their position became much stronger. Where was management going to go then?

[Gman]

79. I agree "hate" is entirely the wrong word

However, Chavez knew many illegals would work for less than scale and that made them a threat. He much preferred green-carders again, because illegals undermined the union effort because they were illegal.

It's the same thing every where else. Illegals and other non-citizens will work for less and drive down the overall wage scale.

[DesertDiamond]

61. Oh no! You made me cry! Thanks for this wonderful post!

[Subdivisions]

66. Your very welcome. =). n/t

[Swamp Rat]

62. A modern day warrior mean, mean stride, today's Tom Sawyer mean, mean pride...

:patriot:

A modern day warrior
Mean, mean stride
Today's Tom Sawyer
Mean, mean pride

Though his mind is not for rent
Don't put him down as arrogant
His reserve, a quiet defense
Riding out the day's events
The river

What you say about his company
Is what you say about society
Catch the mist, catch the myth
Catch the mystery, catch the drift

The world is, the world is
Love and life are deep
Maybe as his skies are wide

Today's Tom Sawyer
He gets high on you
And the space he invades
He gets by on you

No, his mind is not for rent
To any god or government
Always hopeful, yet discontent
He knows changes aren't permanent
But change is

What you say about his company
Is what you say about society
Catch the witness, catch the wit
Catch the spirit, catch the spit

The world is the world is
Love and life are deep
Maybe as his eyes are wide

Exit the warrior
Today's Tom Sawyer
He gets high on you
And the energy you trade
He gets right on to
The friction of the day



:patriot:

[Subdivisions]

65. Imma RUSH (the band) fan from wayyy back =) Here's my DU namesake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu9Ycq64Gy4

[WillyT]

72. Ok... But What Did You Do With My Red Barchetta, Dude ???

I was gonna go for a nice morning drive, and the next thing I know...

:silly:

:hi:

[the blues]

64. It takes wisdom and strength to maintain an open mind.

:yourock:

[momdogz]

67. That takes courage.

Thank you. You making your life richer will make other peoples' live richer as well.

[patrice]

68. DU is a true instance of Gestalt: the whole is greater than the sum of its parts

There are ongoing, almost unceasing, opportunities for everyone to learn from everyone else and with all of the resources of the internet just a tab away, smart, not-so-smart, experts, average persons, with sincerity and honesty, HERE we can break most of the walls that divide us and, perhaps, that will change the way we live in the world.

[BrklynLiberal]

69. Wow..I bet a post like this makes it all worthwhile for Skinner, EarlG and Elad.

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Subdivisions]

78. I've had the pleasure of expressing my appreciation for DU to

Skinner and EarlG in person. I basically told them both the same thing I said in my OP. They were, of course, very gracious - and a bit modest to boot. But I know they realize that DU can change lives and minds.

[MadMaddie]

70. Welcome! We are glad you are here!!

[gleaner]

71. Thank you .....

You wrote a very good post. I'm glad that we are now just regular assholes instead of "fucking assholes.":rofl: It always feels good to come up in the world. Anyway, you're not so bad yourself.:toast:

[AntiFascist]

75. Being against illegal immigrants....

and being opposed to gay marriage, would put you on the side of The Minutemen. Please keep that in mind.

[Romulox]

80. Nonsense. Many on this board oppose the cheap labor agenda. nt