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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 07:06 AM
Original message
Man’s World at White House? No Harm, No Foul, Aides Say

Interesting story.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/us/politics/25vibe.html?hp

Man’s World at White House? No Harm, No Foul, Aides Say


By MARK LEIBOVICH
Published: October 24, 2009

WASHINGTON — Does the White House feel like a frat house?


The Obama White House has been battling a boys’ club image.

The suspicion flared in recent weeks — and not for the first time — after President Obama was criticized by women’s advocates and liberal bloggers for hosting a high-level basketball game with no female players.

The president, after all, is an unabashed First Guy’s Guy. Since being elected, he has demonstrated an encyclopedic knowledge of college hoops on ESPN, indulged a craving for weekend golf, expressed a preference for adopting a “big rambunctious dog” over a “girlie dog” and hoisted beer in a peacemaking effort.

................

Still, some high-profile sectors of the White House — economics and national security, for instance — are filled with men and exude an unmistakable male vibe. Mr. Obama’s inner circle includes Mr. Gibbs, Mr. Emanuel and his senior adviser, David Axelrod (“The Boys,” as they are known to some female staff members).

Women in important White House jobs tend to be less visible than their colleagues, even as the administration is trying to elevate their profiles. (In the same week as the basketball game, Anita Dunn, the White House communications director, hosted a group of women reporters for an off-the-record meeting with Ms. Jarrett over chocolate chip and oatmeal cookies.)

One Democratic media strategist says that while Mr. Obama does place women in important roles, his comfort level with staff members is not always perceived as equal.

“There is a sense that Obama has a certain jocular familiarity with the men that he doesn’t have with the women,” said Tracy Sefl, an adviser to Mrs. Clinton’s presidential campaign who speaks regularly to some female aides in the administration.

In interviews, five women who work in the White House or advised officials there described the culture with more of a collective eye-roll than any real sense of grievance or discomfort. One junior aide, who like the other women spoke on the condition of anonymity because of concerns about appearing publicly critical, said that the “sports-fan thing at the White House” could become “annoying” and that her relative indifference to athletics could be mildly alienating. And while this is not uncommon in any workplace, sports bonding can afford a point of entree with the boss..................................
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. Since when has the White House not been a mans club?
Did Georgie go bike riding with the girls when he was pretzledenting? Clinton liked playing with the girls and look where that got him? maybe Obama's just being smart?
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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. LOL
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. Here's why I have a problem with it.
There was a big deal made out of the fact that a lot of men who were golfing together were people in powerful positions. These are the people they knew. On one level, it is understandable and ok. What it hid was the fact that these men probably mentioned business and such while playing. Not only did it foster closer relations with other men, but it was a way to shut out women from having any such experience.

A lot of these men were pleasure golfers. They wanted to win, but not so much that they were intent on getting the lowest handicap possible. A lot of women played golf on a very repectable level. They had game.

Some people have boo-hooed that they wouldn't want women to play basketball because they might get hurt. You have got to be kidding me. I wouldn't just put any woman out there for the sake of having a woman play. However, there are women who I'd put out there in a heartbeat. They would school those fools.

A lot of women grew up playing streetball. Dawn Staley was a regular in Philly,and Holdsclaw made a name in NY. They might not have played 'the Goat' or 'Skip to My Lou,' but they were respected. Women don't play pattycake basketball. They will beat the hell out of anyone. Many of them learned a lot of different angles playing with men to make up for any deficiencies. It doesn't have to be somebody of Dawn Staley's caliber either.

There is a difference if you play sports with somebody. I have played basketball with men, and I am okay. They respect that, and that respect carries over to other areas. It may be an unconscious nod to someone, but people remember.

If they are so concerned about basketball, then why isn't a woman included in a golf outing? A junior aide was picked up to fill a foursome. I'd bet cash money there is a very good woman golfer in the WH.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. maybe it's the different tee areas women use in golf
That would sure give it a sort of "separate but equal" feel if the game were gender-integrated. But golf is not gender-integrated. Nor is basketball. The people harping on and on about this non-story are seeking a way to be offended. Let them have their poutparty, but don't fault the reasonable people in the world for pointing and laughing at them for their whiny permavictim "oh! I'm so put upon!" mentality.

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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Who's pouting.
I'm calling bullshit on some of the arguments I've read about not letting women play.

People can make up all the crap they want. It boils down to it's the boy's club, and they don't feel comfortable playing with women.

I don't know why. It could be they think somebody would hurt a woman. I think if they had a woman who was a good player on the court, they would be disabused of that notion.

If it's language, then they don't want to censor themselves or they think a woman is going to be offended. Any woman who has played could probably match them and more.

They don't want to be shown up by a woman and disabused of their dreamworld about how good they are. If that's it, then let the dream live or their egos will melt.

I doubt if it ever crossed their minds to ask a woman to play until now. So everybody is throwing out ridiculous reasons that they are using to justify it.

On the court, there is an assumed equality. Nobody is given slack because of who they are. Obama doesn't rule the court because he is POTUS. Everywhere else he is the leader, and that includes the WH.

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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. you do know that guys like to just hang out with the guys at times
look around adn you will see it everywhere you go, guys fishing with other guys, play golf with other guys, hike with other guys, hell we even have the women in our lives trying to get us to do more stuff with the guys so we get out from under their feet. In the exact same way that women do stuff with their girl friends as well...
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Sure.
Just don't try to blow smoke with every silly reason under the sun.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. uh, not getting your reply, are you denying the fact that guys like to hang out together
or is it the fact that the pres is a sports fan and he likes to talk sports with others who are sports fans or what....
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. No.
I understand that guys like to hang out with guys. I'm just hearing ridiculous reasons about why no womwn play. Boo-hoo - they might get hurt. *snort*

As far as the Prez being a sports fan and wants to talk to sports fans, that is a BS reason if he is using that to not include women. I believe I can hold my own with him, and there are a lot of others who can too.
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vadawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. thing is that most guys dont want to play sports against women.
its just a fact that guys like to hang and play sports against other guys, same goes for watching sports etc, yes we will participate with women but overall guys like guy time and even if one of the guys thinks to invite a female friend to the pick up game he will soon realise that the rest of the guys dont want women in their game.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. this is why i think this argument is petty. if the guys want to talk sports, and the women arent
Edited on Sun Oct-25-09 09:49 AM by seabeyond
interested in sports, .... then fuck, so what. though i know many women interested in sports, can hold their own and the men i have seen dont have issue women participating, (unless they are just asses), all is well.

he likes basketball. i cant see a woman jumping in that. he likes golf, i can see a woman who likes golf being a part.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. in my world women play often and well with men in the golf world, integrating with each
other just fine. one of the few sports where it can easily be done. if there are a group of males having issue with women playing with men, then i will suggest it is the male being asses, not as a whole.

all my life i have watched male/female play golf together harmoniously.

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soccermomforobama Donating Member (327 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. I have to say that I do not get all of the "outrage" over
him not having women play basketball with "the guys."

Obama played a pick up game with the UConn women when they came after winning the National Championship earlier in the year.

If he wants to play basketball with a bunch of guys, so be it.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. He played a game of P.I.G. with them.
That isn't a pickup game by any means. I would loved to have seen his team of scrubs play the UConn champs.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. so, when was the last time you saw men n women playing basketball together ANYWHERE? hmm nt
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Uh...
Last week when I went to referee a game. Before the league had control of the courts at 6pm, there were several teams playing. There were some women on a couple of the pickup teams.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
16. Could This Piece Possibly Be Any Dumber? Probably Not.
Whining morons LOL
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DaveinJapan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
18. Unrecommend from me on this one
if he includes more women in purely recreational sports and activities, I'm sure the common wisdom will become "he's flirting with chicks!", and "is the President thinking about cheating on Michelle!!??".

Lose/lose, and another reason to attack Barack Obama for no reason at all (the idiocy, apparently, doesn't spring exclusively from the right).

To all you feminists out there who find yourselves taken aback, I warmly invite you to vote republican early and often.

Then get back to me in 10 years, after all of your rights have been (re)taken away.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Oh please.
If he wants a boy's club, he wants a boy's club. Just stop making inane excuses for the reason women are excluded.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. and those men that have never played basketball, not interested in basketball, are
they bitchin cause they dont want to paly, and obama plays with the guys that want to play?
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Not following....
I doubt if anyone knows who among the WH women could play. Nobody has bothered because they want a boy's club. Who is going to squeak about those games if they are working there? Candace Parker or Maya Moore could be quietly working there and I doubt if they'd try to butt in.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. there are men *gasp* that dont play sports. they are excluded too. baseball
Edited on Sun Oct-25-09 10:30 AM by seabeyond
i can throw catch and hit, never had a man not want me to play. golf, tennis a couple more sports where women can play without being a hindrance to male play, .... unless the male is just an ass with attitude.

because a woman isn't jumping in the basketball games, doesn't make this adm sexist. there are men not jumping into game too. for people that enjoy basketball, can be a rough game. my brothers and father would let me play, and they ran over me. i didn't like it. one game i dont play with the guys. that is not sexist, that is enjoying a game of basketball.

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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
19. Why was this unrec'd? If true, this is a major issue that needs to be looked at
Any criticism of Obama is wrong? This is legitimate criticism.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. because women who arent interested in sports, arent participating in conversations men have
in white house about sports?

come on....

when we talk about the cool pair of boots we bought, do the men feel left out?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
Maybe you don't get that leaving women out of the more casual things (like basketball) affects their access to power.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. i get it. there just has to be reason too. obama likes to play basketball. is he suppose to not
play cause there are no women who want to play with him. hillary isnt gonna jump in the game. so... should obama not play.

some men, and some women like to talk about sports. some men and some women are not interested in talking about sports. is obama suppose to not talk about sports, something he is interested in, cause some women arent interested in it?

that makes no sense to me what so ever.

i have been interested in playing and talking sports in the past. when i knew my shit, i NEVER had a male exclude me. most males are not territorial and assholes in excluding female simple cause of gender. skill, yes..... but then the men that arent skilled are left out too

he can enjoy his sports and still not exclude females in the process.

the bigger question would be, is he using these venues to accomplish and leaving women out. this we dont know

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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
24. Wow, and I thought he was supposed to be an arugala eating,
pointy-headed, effete pansy. Now, he's a 'man's man'? I get confused.

Sometimes guys like to hang with guys, sometimes women like to hang with just women. There are, however, a thousand other things to do than just sports that can include anyone. I'm a guy who hates sports, so I know how men can bond over that shit. Regardless, I've made it through all right.

Let him have the informal sports stuff, and then do other stuff that includes anyone.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
26. Repeat it with me: Non-issue. Non-issue. Non-issue.
Did these women want to play, and were denied?

If I were invited, I wouldn't play either. Why? Because I suck, and haven't picked up a basketball in 5 years. I would probably kill a few people by accident if I tried.
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
27. Most. Ridiculous. Complaint. Ever.
:eyes:
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Fla Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-25-09 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
29. Here's the problem...it's called access
We don't need to make a lot about this with all the IMPORTANT stuff that needs to be discussed. But if it's in the media, it does become a distraction. Having said that............

I applaud the Obama administration for appointing women to high level positions, and that the staff is 50-50. But being in a working relationship and enjoying down time with the boss are 2 entirely different dynamics. For Anita Dunn to equate hosting a group of female reporters with cookies, or hosting a baby shower attended by all females, to hanging with the President, whether golfing or shooting hoops is ludicrous. In those settings the male congressmen get a chance to interact with the prez in an entirely different way that builds relationships. Surely, Mr Obama can find a female congress person, or staffer that enjoys a round of golf. Or why not a barbecue, where both genders can enjoy an afternoon with the president. Maybe he's already doing those type of informal get togethers that include both, but if he is, they need to publicize it more.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/us/politics/25vibe.html?_r=1&hp


"Women in important White House jobs tend to be less visible than their colleagues, even as the administration is trying to elevate their profiles. (In the same week as the basketball game, Anita Dunn, the White House communications director, hosted a group of women reporters for an off-the-record meeting with Ms. Jarrett over chocolate chip and oatmeal cookies.)"


"Ms. Dunn said that she recently hosted a baby shower for an administration official and that no men from the office were invited. She is comfortable with that — just as she is fine with never playing basketball with the president."

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