Now this is just getting crazy. Anti-choicers literally want to stick probes inside women

[ck4829]

Abortion rights supporters have challenged two new Oklahoma laws that would give the state some of the strictest abortion laws in the country by forcing women to answer questions about race and their relationships, and to listen to a doctor talk them through an ultrasound.

Opponents of the laws, including the New York-based Center for Reproductive Rights, have sued to stop them from taking effect, arguing that both were rolled into larger bills, violating a state constitutional provision requiring bills pertain to a single subject. A district court judge issued a temporary order this week preventing the questionnaire law from taking effect.

Another district court judge overturned the other law, which would require women seeking abortions to undergo an ultrasound and to have a doctor talk them through what they're seeing. The law would require a doctor to use a vaginal transducer in the earliest stages of pregnancy, since that provides the clearest image when the fetus is small. The method is more invasive than the abdominal ultrasounds most pregnant women undergo.

While most states have abortion reporting requirements, Oklahoma's laws in both areas are the most far-reaching in the nation, said Elizabeth Nash, a public policy analyst with the New York-based Guttmacher Institute, an abortion rights group focused on sexual and reproductive health research.

Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi require ultrasounds in all abortion cases, and Arizona and Florida require them after the first trimester. But no other states require doctors to describe the image to women and mandate that a vaginal ultrasound be used in certain cases, Nash said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091024/ap_on_re_us/us_oklahoma_abortion_laws

A vaginal transducer is put inside the vagina for those who do not know, this device has it's uses in medicine and science, but to require someone to use it. Wow.

Does anyone still doubt that the anti-choice argument against abortion and contraceptives is less about protecting fetuses than about controlling women like they were objects? STILL?

[saltpoint]

1. I'm sure there must be SOME liberals in Oklahoma.

I hope they're ok.

[Archae]

3. Bartcop is an Okie.

[saltpoint]

4. Well, we may have to mount a rescue and get him out of there.

Decent guy. Deserves better representation than he's getting from Inhofe and Coburn.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Bart Refuses To Leave...

I met Bart several years ago...played poker with him and did a couple shots of Chinaco. A couple of us joked how he's the only sensible person in "Knuckledraggers" land...and he should get out before someone takes a shot at him (and I'm not talking tequilla). He was adamant...he's proud of being an Okie and feels he keeps his edge cause he is surrounded by so many wingnuts. He joked that if he moved, he'd become just another insufferable blogger...

[saltpoint]

8. LOL. Well, he's a heartier soul than I am. I'd be on the first Greyhound

out of that place.

More power to 'im.



:thumbsup: :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. madokie - one of my favorite DUers

[roguevalley]

53. this gets stupider by the minute. what sickos, what fixations they have,

they need jail time to play with themselves out of the view of the public.

[lillypaddle]

69. I'm from Okla. City

in Atlanta now, but yes, there are many liberals in Oklahoma. Unfortunately, there are more that are far right.

[TransitJohn]

87. The Flaming Lips

:headbang: Not sure if they still live there, though.

[Berry Cool]

2. Oh, they think they are protecting fetuses, but they're controlling women too.

They want to force every possible instrument to be used to confront the woman with anything that will reinforce the idea that what she has inside her from the moment of conception is a BABY, and not just a shapeless blob of cells. They want to use the tools of science to persuade a woman that, at any stage she gets it, abortion is murder, so that she will be guilted out of having one.

I am sure the language the doctors would have to use to describe the image would also be strictly outlined; for example, the doctor would be required to use the term "baby" at all times and never be permitted to use words such as "fetus" or "organism," or anything that might distance the woman from the idea that the fetus is a human being with full personhood.

What I imagine might shock them is if their laws were enacted and their methods still failed--if a woman went through all that rigmarole and still said "I want the abortion. I have heard all your rhetoric about how if I do it, I will be killing a baby. But I don't believe it and I don't care."

They just assume that if they do all this, the women they do it to will see things the same way they do and change their minds.

[Beacho]

5. That's really the point

It's never been about 'saving babies'. As soon as the kid is born, abortion activists care level drops to nil. If they are so concerned with 'babies being killed' then why are the majority of anti-choicers also against contraception? The answer is that their real target is reversing the rights of women to control their reproductive life and bring back the traditional role as laid out by Gawd in the Holy Babble. Kirche, Kuche, Kinde

[havocmom]

10. Seems more like they are flat out saying they will punish & punish & punish women

under the pretense of 'teaching' them. It is intimidation pure and simple.

Since men can carry fetuses to term, time to do forced implantation on the 'gents' who want to force women to carry fetuses.

[barbtries]

23. what about the woman's right to refuse

the procedures? i can't see sitting still for that shit.

[Joe the Liberal]

27. It's all about control to these nut-cases.....

They (anti-choice people) are all about controlling EVERYTHING, religion is nothing more than a form of control.

[Chulanowa]

64. And the real push they're conducting?

Expense. Ultrasounds aren't free. Consultation isn't free. These probings certainly won't be free!

Wealthy women can afford these measures - or they can afford to simply travel to a different state for the procedure. But hte poor are stuck. travel is unlikely and paying all the extra costs isn't going to happen to them.

[katkat]

75. Re: They just assume that if they do all this, the women they do it to will see things the same way

I'm not sure of that. I think some of it is plain vicious twistedness with sexual perversion thrown in.

[xrdan]

88. Hypothetically speaking-

A woman is headed across town to have a late term abortion. At the gas station a scumbag decides he wants her SUV and carjacks her. She resists and he shoots her in the abdomen. She survives but the baby dies. The shooter is later caught and the DA charges him with murder, among other things.

My point is that you can't have it both ways. If she had made it 3 more blocks to the clinic and had an abortion no one would have been charged with murder. A pregnancy terminated by a bullet is murder, but if it had been done a few minutes later with instruments it would have been OK?

Just some food for thought.

Dan

[Hansel]

89. More food for thought.

In many late term abortions the baby is already dead or is incapable of surviving outside of the womb.

I had one as the baby was dead from an injury due to perforation from a Copper 7 I had asked my doctor to remove but he refused. My sister-in-law had one because the baby was growing so fast it didn't develop and was a blob with no human features at all. So if she or I had been shot in the abdomen, someone would have been charged with murder for shooting a dead baby?

[havocmom]

6. Questions about race & relationships? How is that pertinent to medical care,

unless of course, the anti-women/anti-choicers are finally coming out about their REAL agenda?

The American Taliban is trying to force American women into breeding because they are afraid 'whites only' is being out bred? How long before Oklahoma insists on questions about political persuasion? Oh, wait, perhaps that one is covered by 'relationships'? Are they only wanting to intimidate white women who are not politically liberal to breed to keep their winger numbers up?

This shit of putting the state between a patient and her doctor has fucking got to stop. How many times do we have to win this battle?

[Autumn]

9. Over and over again, it is

an unending war. We can not become complacent.

[haele]

12. Did these idiot lawmakers ever have a pap smear? Ow, Ow, ow...

Not only do they want to worship the "fetus", they want to frick'n torture a woman for getting pregnant and questioning the situation? Do they treat their livestock like this? Batter them with questions for an hour about their "virtue" and their background to register their situation on the internet for anyone to search and use against them. Stick them on their backs on a bench, helpless with their feet in the air and their who-ha exposed to anyone that walks by, and then yank them open wider with a speculum, then probe for ten minutes or so while they get their jollies and money shot?

Oh, I forgot - "Animals don't understand pain so all they feel is a little discomfort" - "Animals don't have a sense of self respect"... I guess it's the same with women, too.

"It can all be over in a bit dearie - all you have to do is just be a good girl, take your punishment and have that little bastard (this is Oklahoma), and none of this has to get out at all. Surely you don't have to work, and can leave and you have an auntie or friend that will put you up for a couple months before you give birth and put the brat up for adoption. Or you can just add a shed to your house, apartment patio, or trailer to put the kid up and work yet another job to pay for it's upkeep for the next 22 or so years. Then it can be like nothing ever happened..."

Ow. Fetus good. Pregnant Mom bad. Born kid - throw away.
('cause a kid that's born is a long-term taxpayer and social expense whether or not the parents have money, can act up or talk back, and might not feel grateful enough that you nosy hypocrites forced Mom to give birth when she wasn't ready to be a mom.)

Haele

[Berry Cool]

21. If your pap smear hurts that much, maybe you're getting it done at the wrong point in a cycle?

Happened to me once. Got one just before a period. BAD IDEA. Never hurt so badly in my life. Other times, it was nowhere near that time, and it just felt "funny" and odd, not painful.

[REP]

30. Doesn't matter; for some women, having a wire brush jammed into the cervix is just going to hurt

My first symptom of cervical cancer was cervical pain - not after intercourse, but all the time. Some cervixes are more sensitive than others, and the cytobrush, which is wire, will hurt some women no matter what. Even after having 95% of my cervix removed, Pap smears still hurt - and my doctor is excellent!

[uppityperson]

43. Every brush I've used was disposable plastic. Where do they use metal ones?

The scraper is wood,the brush plastic. I have never heard of metal ones.

[REP]

60. Some are plastic; some are fine wire

I may be getting wire still because I have so little cervical tissue remaining.

[uppityperson]

84. that is interesting, thanks for the info, never saw those.

Best wishes for a healthy future.

[beam me up scottie]

32. Some docs don't use smaller speculums.

When I was in the service it was always a one-size-fits-all examination, ow is right. My first civilian OB-GYN not only used a smaller speculum, she warmed it up first. I didn't know it wasn't supposed to hurt.

[REP]

61. I'm nullaparous; the 'regular' size speculum isn't an option unless I'm unconscious!

[beam me up scottie]

80. LOL!

Ditto that!

[undergroundpanther]

13. I had that done once

I had to, no way out I was going to have surgery.Because my ovaries were a cystic mess,and there was endrometriosis all over my abdominal area even tho I had a hysterectomy years before..It had to be done for one ovary had a cyst the size of a coke can top on it,the other numerous smaller ones and the fact they were fused to the bowel,the abdominal wall and to my ureters.Considering my past, it was one of the most terrifying and horrid experinces,my counselor went with me,and I was a basket case afterwards for a few days. If anyone wanted to stick that device there again over something along the lines of dominating me via my body,I'd be out to destroy them and destroy thier laws and undermine their EVIL churches.

Another reason why I hate jesus and christianity.
(glad all my female parts are OUT,because I am transgender,)because if I had to go through that again and again I think I'd lose my mind.

[livetohike]

14. OUCH!

:hug: for all the pain you endured....

These people are nuts!

[Berry Cool]

20. Jesus and Christianity don't deserve your hatred for that. Jesus and Christianity don't advocate it.

Don't hate Jesus just because he has some (I repeat SOME) twisted followers. It's as stupid and prejudiced as hating all black people because you were once mugged by a black man.

[undergroundpanther]

85. you don't know your own bible

There are a few verses here you might be pretending are not written in your bible. Horrific acts commanded by your god.
I do accuse jesus, god, the bible and christians for the wrong they do and wrong they sweep out of mind..



A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
Do you think your religion makes you above wrongdoing?
Jail house conversions abound and some fools believe a psychopath can be changed by religion maybe this verse is why.

Seems nothing will convince a christian that god was bad after they decided to believe in him; the underlying assumption is, they are correct, always. And this makes people of 'faith' untouchable by any amount of rationality. But I try it anyway.

Look at the book of Joshua, read it.That one if you have a conscience at all it will turn your stomach.
"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)
In the battle of Ai, the Bible tells that twelve thousand, the whole population of Ai, got slaughtered. (Josh. 8:25)
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08084/867501-85.stm#ixzz0Uxy6bQDG


Explain THIS:

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?" (Lamentations 3: 38-39)
And verse Isaiah 45:7. “I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I the lord do all these things”.
In both these verses the christian god says he is the source of evil.


Why would you want to keep a friend around who commits evil acts like rape or murder or bashing little children's heads against rocks? Why would you then ignore the crimes your friend did? And why if you confronted this"friend" with his crimes he offers no self-justification or remorse? What would YOU do? Turn your cheek?

That "friend" would be a psychopath. Psychopaths are dangerous people most people would want to lock up this abusive asshole as soon as possible. Would you send your friend' to jail if you detected his lack of conscience before YOU got hurt? Or call all the victims of christians from now back into history liars?..

So why is this same character judgment not applied to god? It’s seems rather hypocritical that psychopathy is despised in humanity, yet, psychopathy,authoritarianism and narcissism morbid jealousy murder rape and war is holy if it is from god in your religion.

Jesus said..
"Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (Luke 12:51-53)

Jesus said right there he brings DIVISION and to prove it look at how some gay or transgender children are treated by their own parents if they dare come out? It becomes,a house divided,This hate comes only IF the parents are CHRISTIAN or MONOTHEISTIC believers.Why is that? Because some tribal gods were homophobic like some humans are.

This is the verse that causes bible based trans-phobia,it leads to the death of at least one transgendered person a month.
The bible prohibits men and women from wearing each other’s clothing.

“The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God”--Deuteronomy 22:5)
http://www.gender.org/remember/day/

The cruelty in the bible and the reality of how too many christians treat their kids and wives with cruelty right now is more than enough to prove what divisions that christian beliefs or "Faith"in the monstrous tribal god jesus of the bible causes in this world. Oh, but there is more plenty more.


Many Churches have found this verse quite embarrassing. It gives no wonder why priests, Jews, and Christians alike, who quote from Psalms 137, always leave out this last verse.
"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Psalms 137:9, KJV)
"a blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them against a rock!" (Psalms 137:9, Jerusalem Bible)




More intolerance!!
Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

My experince...with christians.
After I left the church I was abandoned in a town with no family or friends it made me feel very suicidal and trapped,I wanted to go home.
The church just abandoned me, the church made themselves my only social contact using my vulnerabilities against me. I was isolated from friends and family devoted to the church. And when the contradictions and cruelty became too much that I could no longer believe in your god..The church just pretended I never existed. They told me I was such a wonderful friend etc.They lied to me.And that lie hurt me. Also I have lost friends because of that verse,one was a friend I knew for ten years.When he told me he was going to break off the friendship I was stunned ,as he drove away I cried my eyes out,alone because he said he had to never see me again because I was not a christian.

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Again that is what happened to me.And it HURT me.Why because I thought these people were real friends.That they cared about me as a person.They did not care about me at all unless I was worshiping an evil god like themselves.

And what of this verse ? This is words of your jesus..

Matthew 19:29 If you really loved Jesus then he insists that you abandon your wife and children for him. Only that way will he allow you to go to heaven.

(That is if you meet his other contradictory if not impossible requirements,and don’t slip through the loopholes, and ignore the contradictions.)


And this?
Revelations 19:13-15
Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the wine-press of the wrath of God.

(The wine-press is the actual press that "evil" humans shall be put into so that they may be ground up into a bloody mash and guess who operates this horrible murdering machine? Surprise! None other than your nice guy jesus)

If God created everything,(Colossians 1:16, Ephesians 3:9, Revelation 4:11 & John 1:3), then he did create the world’s evil (Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38). Thus, he is responsible. Any being who could create situations such as rape, death, malnutrition, disease, molestation and murder is certainly not fit for worship.

To be more specific, let’s talk about the lord’s creation of evil, let’s talk about the conception of Satan. This being was created and unleashed by God. Jehovah knew (for he is the all knowing) that at the time of Lucifer’s creation he would eventually become Satan, and spend his existence reeking havoc on man kind. Leading people into criminal activities.
Suppose I were to build an evil robot, that I knew would go around torturing and murdering people. Whose fault would it be if I let it loose? Mine or the robot’s? Of course it would be mine, for I created it with that purpose and unleashed it for that purpose. Now I ask you, whose fault is deviltry in the world? Is it the PUPPET Satan or the being that deliberately created Satan’s evil?

Now God Plays Switch-A-Roo And Humans Are The Creators Of Evil Not only does the bible imply, but so do many Christians, that we as a people are the creator of evil. It is clear for reading the bible that this is untrue, but the speculation still remains. Supposedly, when Adam and Eve fell from grace, they single handedly brought evil into the world. All you have to do is think logically for a moment, and you will obviously see something is very unjust with this concept. Could any rational being hold a starving infant in Ethiopia responsible for the actions of two long dead people? Or perhaps, would you find it fair to be convicted of Jack the Ripper’s crimes? The connection in both of these instances are not only ludicrous but, disgusting to nod your head at. People who use this argument are simply attempting to rationalize sadism.
http://www.evilbible.com/why_i_am_not_a_christian.htm


To me the bible god and it's offspring are a blind psychopath monster and the bible can be interpreted to suit the reader so easily even if said reader is a psychopath made in god's image this is why,I hate jesus and god of YOUR belief system as much as I hate any archon worship system,and christianity is not the only one out there.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

95. Yep, and I will tell you the next step the xtians will take.

They'll say "Oh but the New Testament is a New Covenant, Jesus is different, he's not like that cruel Old Testament God!".

The hell he is. Jesus advocated far worse than just "I come not in peace but with a sword".

Jesus advocated the cruelty of the OT god, and if he indeed did say what is attributed to him (which is doubtful as we have no real evidence that Jesus actually existed), then he's certainly not an avatar or enlightened being.


More details:
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

The Babble is a horrible book to base ANY sort of morality on. The Sermon on the Mount and "Judge not lest ye be judged", and "As you did it unto the least of them, so also you did it unto me", are about all that's worthwhile in it. Just a few paragraphs.

[StatGirl]

15. Can you say "Sexual assault with a foreign object"?

"The law would require a doctor to use a vaginal transducer in the earliest stages of pregnancy"

Totally about punishment. I expect courts to toss this one out in two seconds.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Yeah. It was one thing when I had it done because I wanted to

see my babies. It's another thing to force it on a woman who doesn't want it.

[LynneSin]

29. Men using a phallic object to control women. Sounds like a form of rape to me

Don't get me wrong, I heard that vaginal ultrasounds can provide some wonderful pictures of the fetus - but that's for a woman who wants this procedure done to her. For a woman forced to have one, well sticking a phallic object into a woman's vagina without her permission is rape regardless if it's a man's penis or an unwanted metal object.

[RagAss]

17. This is so fucked there are no motherfucking words.

[Tutankhamun]

18. I guess I'm just going to have to cancel my vacation!

:sarcasm:

[TwilightGardener]

19. Had an ultrasound done that way

(on a full bladder--oof)--the ultrasound tech had me hold and insert the wand myself, because it's kind of weird to do something like that to someone else. A bit invasive (but not more so than a typical gyne exam). This law is just meant as some kind of punishment, humiliation, or deterrent.

[Liberal_in_LA]

41. had one done also..years and years ago...as I recall, had to insert it myself

[cbdo2007]

45. People going through infertility get these done most of the time, typically 4-5 times a cycle.

We've always had the ultrasound tech put it in and move it around, I've never heard of people having to do it themselves.

Still, your right that this is meant to be a deterrent and humiliating for the person.

[emmadoggy]

47. I've had this type of ultrasound done more than once and

I never had to do it myself. As weird as it is to have a tech do it, I think doing it myself would have been weirder. I've never heard of that.

It was not painful at all. But I definitely agree with everyone else here that this is an intimidation technique.

[Maru Kitteh]

51. That's bizzare. A qualified tech shouldn't feel the least bit squeamish. It's not weird,

it's medicine. Having the patient do it sounds totally unprofessional.

That aside - the idea of this being done to a woman against her will is utterly repellent.

[TwilightGardener]

77. I don't think the tech felt squeamish--I think she was being considerate, so

that I had some control and didn't feel violated. It was a still a bit weird/embarrassing to me, though.

[barbtries]

22. that is unbelievably invasive

jeez. these people really have nothing better to do. i don't get it.

[Vinca]

24. I bet the anti-choicer's line to adopt stretches for miles . . . right?

:sarcasm:

[Shallah Kali]

25. And I am sure they are lobbying congress right now for health care for all pregnant women

and pre-pregnant women as well to ensure all fetus come to term in the most robust of health possible :sarcasm:

[Shell Beau]

26. I certainly don't think anyone should require the vaginal probe,

but it is common practice to use it on pregnant women in the early stages of pregnancy. Obviously it is used on women who intend to keep their baby, but putting it in bold makes it sound like it is a rare thing and only used for abortion purposes.

And I am not condoning this at all, just wanted to clear up the whole probe thing.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shell Beau]

34. How gross of a post is this? Please don't even say that.

The disgusting and illegal part I can get with, but the rest of your post is about as nasty as it gets.

[JackRiddler]

31. Arkansas has a provision requiring a bill pertain to a single subject?!

Amazing!

Can we have one in Albany?

How about WASHINGTON?!

On such ideas, I've always wondered how the jurisprudence has gone. I mean, who decides if a provision is relevant to the subject?

[AnnieBW]

33. Anything invasive has the potential to CAUSE a miscarriage!

Wow. Welcome to the Handmaid's Tale.

[Shell Beau]

35. The probe isn't really that invasive. It is more invasive than the

wand on the belly, and I don't agree with it having to be used for abortions at all, but it is only more invasive because it goes in the vagina. It is used regularly for pregnant women. It gives more accurate readings in those early weeks. It is much smaller than a penis, and having intercourse is considered safe in during pregnancy. I do have to say I laughed when I first saw one though because it reminded me of a sex toy, but I can have a dirty mind, and they do put a condom like thing on it. But don't take my response here to mean I am ok with it being used for abortions, I just want to clear up what the wand is for and its safety.

[madfloridian]

44. It is most surely invasive, and it encroaches on the privacy of women.

I can not believe there are people defending the fact that they are trying to make women 2nd class citizens.

[Shell Beau]

90. I am not defending anything. I am simply

describing the probe since I just went through this with my pregnancy. It is a common device used. That is the only point I was trying to make. And I am guessing an abortion is invasive. Again I am not defending this at all, but with the vaginal probe, many other things can be seen. It was one of the only ways we found out that I had an ectopic pregnancy which is a life threatening situation. I believe it should be a voluntary thing. If you want it used, then ok, if not, then ok too.

[liberal_at_heart]

48. I have had this kind of ultrasound also

to check for ovarian cancer. The first time you have this done is kind of embarrasing. You have to insert it into your vagina and then the technician moves it around. I kept thinking dear God don't let me get turned on by this. That would really be humiliating. I've had it done a few times now and it is not arousing. I'm not really embarrased by it now. I know it is a screening technique to help catch cancer early. I know this screening is there to help keep me healthy. I don't think it would cause a miscarriage. Having sex during pregnancy is much more invasive than this wand. The wand is only inserted a couple of inches into the vagina. But to use it for screening before abortions? That is absurd and an outrage.

[liberal_at_heart]

36. are the anti-abortion supporters going to script what the doctors have to walk the patient through?

I can picture the anti-abortion supporters telling the doctors, "Make sure you tell her how much pain and suffering she is causing her unborn child, and that she will never forgive herself, maybe even become suicidal. Make sure she knows that God will never forgive her and she will burn in he** forever."

[Warren DeMontague]

37. How about miniature televangelists?

Just lube 'em up, and stick 'em in.

[Bette Noir]

38. Sounds to me like what we call "rape by instrumentality."

[Odin2005]

39. Ugh, the War on Women continues.

:puke:

[Nikki Stone1]

40. Do you see the connection between this behavior and the Taliban's treatment of women?

American Taliban.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. Coming soon to a Red State near you: Forensic Vagina Inspectors.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/magazine/09abortion.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

[valerief]

46. They are so pervy. nt

[BrklynLiberal]

49. This makes me want to puke. And you are 100% right that this is totally about controlling women.

If these #@%^&*+#s were really so interested in the fetus, they might support making pre-natal care available to all women, they would support child health care and housing and education for all those fetuses they say must be protected.

Once they have emerged from the womb, those lying hypocrites could not care one iota if the kid live or dies.

[madfloridian]

50. Great cartoon from Miami Herald about the ultrasound. Men in suits in control.

[truthrocks]

52. I'm sure there are many young people who would have no clue what my avatar means

I have been an RN for a whole lotta years, a major portion spent in the NICU (Newborn Intensive Care Unit). This, both before and after Roe/Wade. The difference between these two eras has been startling. There are HORROR stories that I will someday write about in the "before" era. Suffice it to say, I am fiercely protective of a EVERONE'S right to choose what happens in their own body.

It's infuriating to watch male political pundits moralizing about what a woman “should” or “should not” be allowed to do with her reproductive system. They sit in judgement with their male reproductive organs totally "safe" from unwanted intrusion, never having experienced the miracle of the uterine lining shedding itself every month, or the ineffable joy of feeling the first flutter of life in utero or the agonizing and heartfelt childbearing decisions made by millions of women every day.

As for the women who fantasize that their righteous "Godly" cause gives them permission to collude with these right wing rapists, I can only say ... imagine how it would play out if the roles were reversed.

We CANNOT go backwards on this issue!

[Hekate]

63. Welcome to DU, truthrocks. Even here there are plenty of people who just don't get it...

You will eventually have the opportunity to tell your story. :hug:

Hekate

[saracat]

66. You are absolutely correct. And the problem is many don't want to know, and refuse to

even consider that choice is still an issue.It is frightening.

[beam me up scottie]

81. Welcome to DU, truthrocks, you chose your user name well.

I know what your avatar represents: we won't go back.

[elshiva]

92. Thank you! I know what that avatar means.

No more wire hangers. No more back street abortions. Another DUer said, "You're either for legal abortions or you're for illegal abortions." Before abortion was legal, there were 1 million abortions a year. Women could get an abortion when it was illegal, but she gambled with her life and the health of her utereus. This is why women fight for safe, legal abortions. It's sick the way these state laws can limit a women's right to control her body.

[bkkyosemite]

54. Those people need to take their religious beliefs that they are trying to shove down peoples throats

and stick them where the sun don't shine!

[Leftist Agitator]

55. Well, I say that the Republican legislators who voted for this measure...

Need to have something shoved into them. The women can be probed by a vaginal transducer. The men can have the top of a pineapple shoved up their assholes.

Seems fair to me.

[caseymoz]

56. I wonder if you could charge a whole legislature with rape?

They are mandating putting an object in women as a requirement for an abortion? Why don't they just add on knocking out a tooth and blackening an eye, too?

To your last statement: I think most are just blind to the very idea of what they are doing. They are the same sort of people who allow children to be abused out of the principle that its the family's right. What they feel is-- something like right. A few, yes, might have a glimpse of knowing it is about controlling women. It's mostly useless arguing it, though, you pretty much have to crumble the whole pseudo-logic of their beliefs right in front of them.

[JackDragna]

57. "The Handmaid's Tale" given life.

I didn't think I could be any more disgusted by the decisions made by the pro-lifers, but I am.

[shimmergal]

58. Not only about controlling women;

they want to punish them too. How dare a woman think about having an abortion? We'll just torture her with that vaginal transducer.

My experience with a pelvic untrasound was one of the most unpleasant medical experiences I've ever had. Nobody told me it would hurt so much! And this was the kind where they just take the picture from the outside.

Now it's possible I just got an operator who didn't know what she was doing (I've never heard another woman complain about this.) But even so, _then_ she wanted to do that "vaginal transducer" thingy because the picture wasn't coming thru clearly enough.

Sincer I was already running about an hour late for another appt., and it sounded so horrid, I said no. It was the right decision. My condition (not pregnancy; that wasn't at issue) got diagnosed OK anyway.

But presumably under the law, female Oklahomans in need of an abortion wouldn't even have the option to say no. How awful!

[alp227]

59. We have even more justification in the term "anti-choice"

to describe those absolutely opposed to abortion. Conservative complaints that the media has a liberal bias by using "anti-abortion" as BS now.

[old mark]

62. It's amazing that there are not more refugees from Oklahoma and

states with similar anti-women policies.
This is all about keeping women as breeders and nothing else.

mark

[fl_dem]

74. I escaped Oklahoma in 1989

before my children were old enough to be brainwashed by thumping bibles and iron fists. I know many closet democrats residing in and around the Tulsa area, some are coming out, some are still oppressed by fear of family, employers etc. With a religious right(such an oxymoron)zealot like Sally Kern, birther Alan Keyes, the delusional Jim Inhofe representing the state and now this outrageous attempt to control women and their choices,I have little hope right now for the place I once called home. Oklahoma ranks #6 in teen births and 60% of all births are paid for by medicaid, yet sex education is not required in the schools, however tons of tax payers money has gone to abstinence only programs for middle and high schoolers. They (oklahomans) have taken the oh so ever popular republican stance of "hands over ears, eyes closed" to the facts.

[old mark]

78. This makes me sad. I have relatives living in south Texas, and I

sometimes wonder what it would be like to live there.

They always ask me when I'm moving there, but I'd rather put up with the snow than the RWers.

Hope it's better for you in Florida.

mark

[fl_dem]

91. much better

i am proud to say that i played a role, albeit a small one last year and helped turn the state of Florida into a very lovely shade of blue!!!

[juno jones]

79. I have known a few oklahomans in my life.

They were all living in other states.

Every so often one would go back-to take care of relatives or lured by lower costs of living.

Eventually, they pretty much always returned to CA, WA, TX...etc etc.

[saracat]

65. And yet the "Pro-Choice Movement is Losing Steam". We elect anti- choice Dems

, young women say this isn't their "issue" and some still think choice isn't in DANGER? We have the president defending pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions for reproductive medications if it offends their religious beliefs! This is absolutely about controlling women and if we don't want to see an end to all our mothers and grandmothers fought for, we need to stand up and fight. The battle is not over, and we haven't won yet.

[opihimoimoi]

67. The gen pop needs to wise up...that is all...if ya let them...they will do it....Stop them now b 4

its 2 late

[Triana]

68. I NEVER had any doubt that it's all about about controlling women like they were objects

That's what it's always been about.

Can we mandate that stuff is stuck inside men's penises too? Why not? Pfft.

[Ineeda]

72. A slogan from back in the 70's....

"If men could get pregnant abortion would be a sacrament."

[Triana]

83. Hell yea it would.

Some men need to stop trying to control women and learn to control THEMSELVES. (ie: stop PROJECTING)

[lillypaddle]

70. Thanks for using "anti-choice" instead of "pro life"

I think it's important. Anyway, I believe this is really more about "control" than anything else. Most of these people aren't just opposed to abortion, they are against birth control and sex education. That doesn't even make sense.

[Anakin Skywalker]

71. WTF Does Race Have to Do with Anything?

Article says "forcing women to answer questions about race"

Sorry for swearing but I have to ask again: WTF?

[MountainLaurel]

82. Keep in mind

That for some of these folks (particularly the old white men who are putting forth such legislation), one of their oppositions to abortion is that white babies are being aborted. So, of course they'd want to know about it.

[Zoeisright]

73. Anti-choicers are misogynistic.

And it seems they also have rape fantasies. The two pretty much go hand-in-hand.

[amb123]

76. Apparently, George Orwell was off by 25 Years.

2009 - 1984 = 25

:nuke: :puke:

[undergroundpanther]

86. This is in the bible,

Let us look at the following Verses in the Bible: "If a man takes a wife and, after laying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, 'I married this woman but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity.' Then her parents shall display the cloth with before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:13-18)"

Here is a more clear translation from Hebrew Resources: "The girl's father and mother shall produce the evidence of the girl's virginity before the elders of the town at the gate. And the girl's father shall say to the elders, "I gave this man my daughter to wife, but he had taken an aversion to her; so he has made up charges, saying, 'I did not find your daughter a virgin.' But here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity!" And they shall spread out the cloth before the elders of the town. (From the New JPS translation, Deuteronomy 22:15-17)"

Back in the old Biblical days, if a girl commits fornication, she would bring a big shame to the family. The family would lose their reputation and respect in the town. That is why you see Biblical verses such as the following:

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 21:9)"

"...and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss. (From the New Jerusalem Bible, Ecclesiasticus 22:3)"

http://www.answering-christianity.com/fathers_rape.htm


Liberal christians do not know the bible and what a horrid god they worship. This is from an is;lamic site but it is no less evil in it's irrationality than the jews long ago or christians today.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

96. Why is that relevant?

Why should ANYONE read the bigoted, ignorant ramblings of a bunch of illiterate superstitious goat-fuckers??? WHY???

:wtf:

[backscatter712]

93. Sticking objects in orifices involuntarily? I call that rape. n/t

[crim son]

94. I am reasonably certain that this procedure is being advocated

so the pregnant woman can see the fetus and make an "informed" decision about having it aborted. Even though I don't find the use of vaginal ultrasound to be as barbaric as some it is certainly extremely invasive, especially in cases like this where there is no good medical reason to have one done, only implied moral reasons. The whole thing stinks of coercion.

[dana_b]

97. controlling, humiliating

and attempting to make us feel powerless. To hell with them.