Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats

[n2doc]

A fatal accident in San Diego raises the question: Might a vehicle's complex electronic features make it hard for drivers to react quickly when accelerating out of control?

By Ralph Vartabedian and Ken Bensinger
October 18, 2009


The 2009 Lexus ES 350 shot through suburban San Diego like a runaway missile, weaving at 120 miles an hour through rush hour freeway traffic as flames flashed from under the car.

At the wheel, veteran California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor desperately tried to control the 272-horsepower engine that was roaring at full throttle as his wife, teenage daughter and brother-in-law were gripped by fear.

"We’re in trouble. . . . There’s no brakes," Saylor's brother-in-law Chris Lastrella told a police dispatcher over a cellphone. Moments later, frantic shrieks filled the car as it slammed into another vehicle and then careened into a dirt embankment, killing all four aboard.

The tragedy Aug. 28 was at least the fifth fatal crash in the U.S. over the last two years involving runaway Toyota and Lexus vehicles made by Toyota Motor Corp. It is also among hundreds of incidents of sudden acceleration involving the company's vehicles that have been reported to Toyota or the federal government, according to an examination of public records by The Times.

more:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-recall18-2009oct18,0,5963897.story

[fasttense]

1. Ahh, the invisible, magical, hand of the "free" market at its best. n/t

[Democracyinkind]

3. Never forget that Smith wrote about " 2 hands " - the other hand being the regulating power of the

..public...

Too bad those fuckers from Chicago somehow redefined Smith by discarding 2/3 of his theories and making him look like some kind of paleo-austrian radical.

[Fumesucker]

2. You would think a CHP officer would have the presence of mind to shift the car into neutral..

Obviously this is a tragic event and my sympathies are with those who died and their friends and loved ones but the driver is ultimately responsible for being a moron who panicked.

I had a Q45 a while back with 278 horsepower, six more than the car in question, if the engine had somehow gotten stuck at full throttle I would have simply put on the brakes and shifted the car into neutral.

I strongly suspect the driver was one of the majority of Americans who cannot drive anything other than an automatic these days, virtually anyone who is experienced driving a stick would push in the clutch in such a situation, disconnecting the motor from the wheels would be an automatic reaction to them.

Edited because I'm caffeine deficient this morning..

[Ptah]

5. The article suggests you are mistaken.

"If anybody should have known how to stop an out-of-control car, it was Saylor,
who was trained in emergency and high-speed driving as a 19-year CHP veteran.
But a close look at the Lexus ES 350 raises questions about whether the car's
very design may have compromised Saylor's skills.

One obvious line of defense is to simply shut off the engine, a step that may not be intuitive
on the ES 350. The car has a push-button start system, activated by the combination of a
wireless electronic fob carried by the driver and a button on the dashboard.

But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down
for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet.
A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold.

"When you are dealing with an emergency, you can't wait three seconds
for the car to respond at 120 miles an hour,"
said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety."

[Fumesucker]

6. I never said anything about turning off the ignition...

What part of "shift into neutral" did you fail to understand?

[theHandpuppet]

8. Is there some reason you always cop an attitude?

How about some civil discussion for a change? Thanks.

[Fumesucker]

10. You came back with a reply that had nothing to do with what I posted..

I was just pointing out the disconnect between what I wrote and your reply.

[Tesha]

16. I've wondered about the "shift into neutral" thing as well, but I know that if my...

car's throttle appeared to be stuck, I'd have kind of a hard time throwing
the shifter into neutral because I'd "know" that the engine would over-rev
and likely self-destruct.

Nowadays, my knowledge would likely be wrong, of course, because the
engine management computer probably has a hard rev-limiter built into
its firmware that would never let the engine accelerate itself to the point
of destruction; it would shut down the spark first. But my training over
the years hasn't accommodated that knowledge yet.

So I'd probably try all sorts of other alternatives first, and likely waste
precious seconds in the process.

Another useful alternative would be to "choose your best crash site",
but again, that's kind of a last-ditch effort and most of us would probably
postpone taking that alternative until it was too late.

Tesha

[Fumesucker]

19. It wasn't even his car..

And he is used to driving a car that he does not have to pay for if it's damaged, his patrol car.

And you are right, virtually all modern engines have a rev limiter built in..

For me the choice is simple, blow up engine or die in a fiery crash, I'm gonna blow the engine, it's not like I haven't done it before. :evilgrin:

[Tesha]

23. Oh I understand the equation. I just can't guarantee I'd act correctly "in the moment".

> For me the choice is simple, blow up engine or die in a fiery crash, I'm
> gonna blow the engine, it's not like I haven't done it before.

Oh I understand the equation. I just can't guarantee I'd act correctly and
quickly-enough "in the moment". I'll bet I'd need at least a second or
two extra to reach the correct trade-off. :(

Tesha

[Fumesucker]

24. Umm.. They were going 120 plus..

Even with 272 horsepower, 120 takes more than "a second or two".. Not to mention he had already smoked the brake pads..

Nope, the guy just didn't understand the concept of disconnecting the engine from the wheels..

It is indeed a tragedy, but even in this situation it was an unnecessary one.

[Better Today]

70. Somehow I think if I had a runaway car, the well being of the engine would be

the least of my concerns.

As to your second idea, been there done that. A semi fishtailed in front of me on a Dallas Freeway just 20 minutes into a moderate rain, ie the street was like glass due to the oil and caleechy (sp?) having been lifted by the wet but not yet washed clean freeway. I stepped on the brakes and began to lose control. When it became clear I was not going to gain control, I aimed for the nearest guardrail (oh, yeah, I had already put it in neutral, always drive a stick), stepped on the brake and spun it into the rail. Never his another car even though it was rush hour and 7 lane freeway. It was scarier the crap because I didn't know if I might end up over the rail into oncoming traffic. I was very lucky that day.

[JNelson6563]

81. Glad you made it and are with us today.

:toast:

[kiranon]

84. Don't know about Lexis but my Prius does not have "neutral" to shift into.

I have forward and reverse and a forward for going down hills.

[Xithras]

104. Actually, the Prius DOES have a neutral..

Push the lever towards L and hold it there for three seconds. The motor will remain disengaged from the driveline until you pull it back into forward or reverse.

Every car has a neutral. If they didn't, you'd never be able to use a car wash or get towed. I don't know if you can legally sell a car in the U.S. without some sort of neutral capability...it's like windshields and taillights in that it's an expected part of the package.

[theHandpuppet]

22. Perhaps you're the one who needs to re-read some posts

I was just a bystander in this conversation. Your posts were made as snarky replies to someone else. I was hoping to learn something from this thread but who wants to participate if you're just waiting to snap someone's head off or belittle them? Sheesh!

[Fumesucker]

26. I rarely look at names when I post..

I'm much more interested in what is written than who writes it.

I was being snarky because someone made a reply that had nothing whatsoever to do with the contents of my post.

And my reply was far from as abrasive as I can be.

[DainBramaged]

92. He does know his shit about a few things......................

And it's hard to cop an attitude via keyboard...........


See my face, wait, let me hold it up to the monitor.........


:sarcasm:

[Ptah]

9. On thinking it over, my reaction was more to this

"the driver is ultimately responsible for being a moron who panicked"

:thumbsdown:

[Fumesucker]

14. It's my opinion..

A CHP officer should have known to shift the transmission into neutral, see my other reply on this thread for details.

[AngryAmish]

27. In emergencies people don't always act rationally

It is a well understood principle in human factors engineering.

[Fumesucker]

29. This was a trained CHP officer...

Otherwise I would agree with you.. But this guy was not some random civilian with no training in handling emergencies.

[kath]

75. read the article -

"The other common defense tactic advised by experts is to simply shift a runaway vehicle into neutral. But the ES 350 is equipped with an automatic transmission that can mimic manual shifting, and its shift lever on the console has a series of gates and detents that allow a driver to select any of at least four forward gears.

The arrangement of those gear selections could make it difficult to shift from a forward gear directly into neutral in a panic situation, Toyota spokesman Lyons acknowledged.

"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here don't know what the neutral position is for." "


Also, the car was a loaner, not his:
The ES 350 Saylor was driving that day was a loaner provided to him by Bob Baker Lexus when he took his family's Lexus in for servicing. It's unclear whether Saylor's own car had the same feature or whether he was aware of the shutdown procedure. Bob Baker Lexus did not return calls.

[AdHocSolver]

95. The newest Toyotas have a fancy zigzag gearshift pattern that is downright confusing.

I have driven many different cars including three-speed "stick" shifts and four-on-the-floor stick shifts, as well as automatic transmissions with shifters on the steering column and on a floor comnsole, and an old Plymouth with push-button shifting. The cars also include older Toyotas.

I drove a friend's Avalon which has the new zigzag shift pattern (the shifter moves in a grooved channel), and was totally confused by it. You cannot simply move the shifter back and forward. It follows the cutout in the console plate. It took me several minutes of working it to get used to it. I didn't like it and commented to my friend that I wouldn't want to have to do any emergency shifting with it.

Moreover, designing a car that you can't shut down immediately by turning a key, or merely "tapping" a "panic" button, is insane.

[high density]

99. I don't think I'd want my car to shut down with the "tap" of a button

One accidental tap at the wrong time and I'm more screwed than this guy ever was. Three seconds pressing the on/off button seems acceptable. The driver just needs to be familiar with the operation of the car, which is difficult in rental/loaner situations like this one.

[AdHocSolver]

111. Not being able to shut off the engine immediately made the guy dead.

According to the article:

..........
But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet.
..........

Even if the guy figured out to hold the button down for 3 seconds, at 120 mph he would travel a tenth of a mile. At 120 mph, even if he could apply enough pressure to the brake pedal to overcome the engine, it would take several more seconds after the engine shut down to stop the vehicle, and he would need a clear path to avoid hitting something.

..........
The shutdown procedure reflects a larger problem: As auto manufacturers adopt increasingly complex electronic features, it becomes more difficult to explain how they work, said Paul Green, a human factors expert at the University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute. A study by the institute found that in some cases, owners manuals would have to run up to 1,000 pages to fully disclose everything.

"In the past, systems were pretty simple," Green said. "You put a key in the lock and turn it. Now we have a fob with functionality."

The other common defense tactic advised by experts is to simply shift a runaway vehicle into neutral. But the ES 350 is equipped with an automatic transmission that can mimic manual shifting, and its shift lever on the console has a series of gates and detents that allow a driver to select any of at least four forward gears.

The arrangement of those gear selections could make it difficult to shift from a forward gear directly into neutral in a panic situation, Toyota spokesman Lyons acknowledged.
..........

I drove a four-speed stick shift car for four years. A driver learns the position of the shifter for every gear including neutral after a short time. It does not work that way with Toyota's automatic transmission.

Instead of designing "cutesy", but useless features, in order to get people to think they are getting more "functionality" and so spend more money for "fluff", we would all be better off if user safety were designed into products.

[Fumesucker]

17. Also from the article..

"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here <Toyota> don't know what the neutral position is for."

As I pointed out, a great many people these days don't know how to drive a stick so are unfamiliar with what the neutral position is for.

The CHP officer may have been "highly trained" but it was in a car with an automatic, people who can only drive automatics really don't have the idea of neutral as an actual gear like people who are trained to drive a stick.

[Mopar151]

85. Winter drivin' will learn ya quick

Backing down hill with the back wheels pulling and the fronts locked is a recipie for disaster. Take neutral, and you have brake and steering control.....

[seabeyond]

48. fuck, good to know. i have a push button starter. another thing, i have had excelleration

on gas, when i am not pressing on gas but going for break. has only happened a couple times. and was when i was just getting going, but made me do a huh

now i am concerned.

mine isnt toyota, it is lincoln

[boobooday]

7. This was addressed

The article lists numerous stupid design elements that could have contributed, including the design of the gear shift. And it wasn't his car, it was a loaner, with a push button ignition that had to be held for a full three seconds to shut the car down!

Usability score on this car = 0

[Fumesucker]

15. I posted this as a reply to the OP by mistake, here it is again..

"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here <Toyota> don't know what the neutral position is for."

As I pointed out, a great many people these days don't know how to drive a stick so are unfamiliar with what the neutral position is for.

The CHP officer may have been "highly trained" but it was in a car with an automatic, people who can only drive automatics really don't have the idea of neutral as an actual gear like people who are trained to drive a stick.

Edited to fix italics..

[MindPilot]

36. It was not a "stick" -- please see post 35

[dysfunctional press]

102. try reading the article- or even the post, before responding next time...

"...I would have simply put on the brakes and shifted the car into neutral."

from the op- "We’re in trouble. . . . There’s no brakes,"

not being in the car- you have no way of knowing what the guy did or didn't try to do, nor how the car responded to his attempts.

[boobooday]

4. That is absolutely terrifying.

Corporate murder.

[Mopar151]

11. Why no brakes?

The brakes of a modern car are several times more powerful than the engine. Did the ABS computer shut 'em off?

FWIW, I'm not a big fan of "drive by wire" throttles, either, as it is fairly difficult to check the throttle return spring(s) - and the processing time needed makes them kind of hard to drive at speed or on slick pavement.

[Tesha]

18. He probably didn't brake hard enough soon enough.

Wussy braking for too long would certainly overheat the brakes whereas
a full emergency application of the brakes probably would have stopped
the vehicle. (I'll bet that Lexus has the feature many high-end cars have
where a real stomp on the brakes creates a more-than-proportionate
application of the brakes; my Audi certainly has that feature)

Tesha

[Fumesucker]

21. That's my guess too... n/t

[Hepburn]

73. I read about this....

...and the vacuum that goes to the engine in full rev basically shuts down the assist to the brakes. Takes estimated 225 pounds of pressure to stop the car and pretty much impossible to apply from a sitting position.

This is a paraphrase of what I recall from the article and I am NOT into this kind of technical talk ~~ so I may be off on what was said. But I do recall the pressure needed to apply the brakes was pretty much an impossible thing to do.

[Tesha]

79. Cars that use a vacuum-operated brake booster always have a vacuum reservoir.

While that won't give you more than (say) two or three good applications
of the brakes, you still get those two or three no matter how much (or
how little) vacuum the engine is producing. I'll stand by my statement
that he wasted his brakes making a far-too-cautious application of them
when he should have simply slammed them to the floor and let the ABS
so its thing.

And I guess I'll appreciate even more the hydraulically-boosted brakes
in my Audi.

Tesha

[Mopar151]

83. Actually, that 's not true

And a lot of hydraulic boost systems lack an accumulator, as well.

[Tesha]

98. Name a few. (NT)

[Mopar151]

103. Ford, GM, Chrysler

That big ugly brake booster is NOT a reservior. And GM hydraulic boosters that work off the P/S pump have no pressure accumulator - only the little electric boost units do.

[Hepburn]

86. Audi is known for acceleration problems.

Good thing you have good brakes.

Since the late 1970s hundreds of Audi drivers in the United States, Canada, Australia and Europe have reported sudden acceleration problems with the Audi 5000 series or its foreign equivalent. There have been 1500 sudden acceleration accidents reported in Audi 5000s and more than 400 people have been injured when their Audi 5000s sped out of control in the United States. Seven people have died.

http://multinationalmonitor.org/hyper/issues/1987/05/wathen.html

[Tesha]

97. I also have a good memory.

When all was said and done, essentially ALL of
those cases of Audis suddenly accelerating were
laid down to driver error. But the bad publicity
that they caused Audi did let me buy two Audis
at reduced prices.

Tesha

[Mopar151]

109. The chance of driver error is greatly increased

When the idle air controller sticks, and the engine is "stuck" on a 2000 rpm idle - At least according to the testing conducted by Car & Driver. They also noted that the Audi tested only took 10 feet longer to panic stop at full throttle rather than idle - buut Audi's have serious brakes.

[doc03]

12. Lexus? Aren't they a very expensiveToyota?

Aren't Toyotas one of those quality made infallible foreign cars? I can imagine the reaction if this was a Ford, there would be people wanting to dig old Henry up and burn him in effigy.

[Tesha]

20. Some of us can recognize the difference between designed-in vehicle defects...

...and operator error.

Tesha

[blue_onyx]

42. How is this operator error?

It's faulty floor mats. It amazes me how people will give Toyota a pass on anything. I'm sure all the Tacoma's that are rusting out are the consumer's fault too.

[Tesha]

80. The floor mats may have initiated the problem but the driver's response was completely inadequate.

(NT)

[doc03]

88. Why of course the Tacoma owners should

have known not to drive the Tacoma on salt covered roads. Like I said if it was an American company they would be calling for the CEO's head. But when it's a Toyota it's some American worker at the dealership that installed the floor mats wrong. Here is a question about that claim: My Mercury has floor mats, the drivers side one has two holes and the carpet has two hooks that go in the holes to hold the mats in place, how come the dumbass Americans in the Mercury dealership were able to properly install the mats with nobody getting killed.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blue_onyx]

44. Uncalled for comment

There's nothing "racist" in that comment.

[Bluenorthwest]

65. Of course the root of American auto problems

starts with all of those Fords with defects and the stories of cost benefit studies saying the deaths were cheaper than recalls. So maybe this is the worm a turning, but it sure is not like the American companies have not had rafts of safety issues that they had to be politically forced to deal with honestly. That was the era when people began shopping elsewhere.
It always amuses me when people foist 'what ifs' that are past actualities. We know what happened when this was Ford, no 'what if' needed.

[Hepburn]

74. Lexus = Toyota in a Tuxedo

JMHO...:hi:

[Fumesucker]

13. Self delete posted in wrong place..

[excess_3]

25. the brakes SHOULD be able to overpower the engine,

especially in top gear.

(the cars i own are manual shift)
is it possible to shift into nuetral
when this is happening?

with that said, there needs to be an
no-doubt-about-it off

[Fumesucker]

28. They are able to overpower the engine..

If you apply them very firmly and take the car down to a stop immediately.

I'm almost certain that what happened here was a less than complete application of the brakes that overheated them and made them ineffective..

I was driving a rental truck once in which the power brakes were operated by the power steering pump rather than engine vacuum like the great majority of vehicles, the power steering belt came off and I lost the power brakes too, I had a real devil of a time getting the truck stopped, had both feet on the pedal and pushing with everything I had.. If it had happened in traffic I would have hit someone I'm sure.

[TreasonousBastard]

31. Bullshit. this happened to me in a Ford Crown Vic at...

around 40MPH and I went nuts trying to stop the car. Almost fried the brakes and had a hell of a time just slowing the car.

First thing you notice is that you are accelerating,and this takes a few seconds to sink in.

Then you figure out what to do-- another second or two if you're lucky.

The immediate reaction is to stomp on the brakes, which works for just long enough to realize what's going on and then try to think of something else.

Eventually, I threw it in neutral and found a parking lot. The engine's computer limited the revs so it revved up and down until I found the floor mat pushing the gas pedal.

VERY IMPORTANT--

Not all cars allow you to throw it in neutral while the engine is revving.

CHP may or may not properly train its officers in high speed chases, but show me where they train them in this sort of thing. Few states have serious driver training for any cops.

[Fumesucker]

33. I'm not aware of any car that will not go into neutral while the engine is on..

In fact most cars won't go into park, which is almost always beyond neutral, while ignition is off.

There aren't any cars whose brakes will not decelerate the car faster than the engine will accelerate it beyond maybe a few very exotic all wheel drive cars, the only one I can think of is a Turbo Porsche AWD with over 500 hp and that's not for certain.

And putting it in neutral worked for you, kudos for quick thinking.

Officers are (or should be anyway) trained to react in general emergencies, not just specific situations.

It is impossible to train for every conceivable contingency of course.

[TreasonousBastard]

37. Don't tell me those brakes would have held for much longer...

they were smoking and if I hadn't found another way to stop they would have failed. Overheated brakes don't stop the car, and even exotic racing brakes can lose it. Yer basic street brake pads lose effectiveness after just a few quick, hard stops from highway speeds.

I haven't seen any cars that lock you out of neutral, either, (it seems like a damn stupid idea) but that's not to say there aren't any. If the shifter uses an electronic, instead of direct, connection to the transmission anything can happen.

[Fumesucker]

43. Once you are stopped the brakes don't heat any more..

It's sliding friction that causes the heat, no motion, no sliding friction.

Like the guy from Toyota said, there are a lot of people who don't know what neutral is for, even at Toyota.

[MindPilot]

46. From the article...

Indeed, a 2007 study by federal highway safety officials showed that braking distance and force on a Lexus ES 350 increased fivefold when the throttle was wide open. And evidence introduced in sudden acceleration trials suggests that it can take up to 225 pounds of pressure on a brake pedal to arrest a runaway vehicle, far more than most drivers can muster from a seated position, said Edgar "Hike" Heiskell, a Charleston, W.Va., attorney who is suing Toyota over a fatal acceleration accident in Flint, Mich.

[Fumesucker]

50. If you read the thread you'll see that I've had something similar happen to me.

In fact I had a large truck that lost the power assist to the brakes and took both feet to get it stopped, but I stopped it.

And if the car had been put in neutral there would have been no problem.

I'd be willing to wager this guy was not someone experienced in driving a stick shift.

Cop cars are invariably automatics.

[MindPilot]

67. I'm going to defend the cop here.

As a CHP officer, he would've had a lot of experience with different cars; these guys patrol the freeways; they don't do much that doesn't involve cars and many who join the CHP do so because they are car guys. As a 19 year veteran, he was probably around when the CHP was using Mustangs, and they had a 5-speed manuals. (At the time the auto trans and police interceptor engine combination didn't qualify for California emissions.)

This was just one of those unfortunate combinations of things gone wrong, any one of which probably was no big deal, but as they snowballed together ended in tragedy.

[Tesha]

82. FYI: It sounds like it wasn't a stick but rather Toyota's implementation of "Tiptronic".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiptronic

[uncle ray]

57. well if you were as quick thinking as you claim to be, you would have been able to stop.

that rental truck has hydro-boost brakes. the brake booster has a hydraulic accumulator built in to provide power for a couple of stops, even after you completely lost your power steering. and i have no idea why you wouldn't downshift the truck to slow down, being the expert operator you claim to be. so by your own admission, you are on equal grounds as the cop in the story at (not) reacting under pressure, and your truck was not even accelerating out of control.

[Fumesucker]

58. Downshifting doesn't stop you completely..

And it was an automatic which I did kick into neutral..

And it was on the interstate when it happened, apparently the accumulator was not working correctly because the first time I hit the brakes they were basically all but dead.

It was on a very long and steep but straight decline when it happened, so in fact it was accelerating which was why I hit the brakes in the first place. The truck was a Jartran box van which my notoriously cheap boss had rented and it was an unmaintained piece of crap in plenty of other ways besides that.

Like I said, I bet the guy wasn't a stick shift driver.

[uncle ray]

62. and my point is you acted wrong, and were not even in the extreme situation the cop was in.

your throttle wasn't stuck in a relatively high performance car.

you shifted into neutral, which was the worst thing to do in your situation. selecting a lower gear will slow your vehicle speed on a downgrade to a manageable crawl.

oh, and you just didn't push hard enough on the pedal.

you could defend your poor choices, but the smartest thing to do is recognize that you, nor other drivers, always do the best thing in an emergency situation and drop the snark you are throwing around. there were failures all around that contributed to the tragedy.

[Xithras]

105. From an engineers standpoint, there's no excuse for it in a drive by wire car.

The brake and pedal should never be used at the same time, so the solution here is simple. When the brake is depressed, the computer should close the throttle. It's a few lines of logic in the cars computer.

[Historic NY]

32. Convenience items are not necessarily convenient..........

fobs, key-less entry, convenience items all contribute to the mindless task of now driving an automobile. Gone are the days when the driver was one with the car. The car today is now an object we plop into while having breakfast, texting, and communicating with others all while hurling down the road at death defying speeds. We seem to want to do a zillion things beyond operating the vehicle. The manufacturers eagerly give us what we want and what we will pay for. The art of driving has become a passive educational pursuit, that is no longer mastered. One now expects the car to deliver them to a location. The days of instructing how to avoid calamity seem to have fallen to the way side. There was a time when driver education was just that and driver manuals were studied to learn more about the car than just how to preset a radio station.

[dixiegrrrrl]

76. You saved me the trouble of saying the exact same thing.

I have been driving for over 40 years, never had an automatic.
Was taught, as an 18 y/o, by male relatives to drive, relatives who were also well versed in car mechanics, as most guys were back then, and they insisted on teaching "how a car works" and
"what to do when you hear/smell/feel this".
Has come in handy a few times, and from that I learned to prefer a stick and to "feel" the car.
Power this, push button that, keyless etc, to me means huge repair bills when it fails to work.
Just stating my preference, does not need to apply to anyone else.

[wildflowergardener]

34. Neutral

Ok - please excuse a dumb question - I have never driven a stick shift - what is the purpose of the neutral gear? I guess I now know something I didn't before - switch to neutral if the car won't stop accelerating?

Maybe this person was a trained driver and should have known, but most people aren't so the car manufacturers should design the car so you shouldn't have to know how to stop it from automatically accelerating, right?

[MindPilot]

39. Neutral is basically zero gear selection

all the gears in the transmission are idling and there is no power being transmitted from the engine to the drive wheels. The clutch--leftmost pedal--actually disconnects the engine from the transmission. Its function is to take the load off the transmission gears while the car is moving to allow the gear change.

In an automatic neutral is the same thing, but there is also Park, which is neutral and adds a locking device which keeps the wheels from turning.

Clear enough?

[NutmegYankee]

63. Neutral has a major purpose in Manual Transmissions

You can press down the clutch pedal to disengage the engine from the transmission, but that requires you be in the drivers seat. If you start the car and leave it in neutral, you can step out and let it warm up as neutral is basically no gear (engine doesn't turn wheels).

Automatics have two neutrals, with Park engaging a locking device to prevent the car from rolling. Most Manual drivers leave the car in gear - ignition off and pull the parking brake to prevent the car from rolling as a backup. The reason you don't need a clutch in an automatic is that the hard friction plate clutch is replaced with a fluid coupling in the form of the torque converter. At low speeds, like idle, the fluid doesn't exert enough force to transfer power to the transmission over what you apply with the brakes.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmission.htm
Page 4 has an excellent animation of the inside of an automatic transmission versus each selection on the gear shift.

[MindPilot]

35. Trust me those questions were hashed out endlessly in the local blogs...

the general consensus was that in addition to the hold the start button for three seconds to turn the engine off (did a Windows programmer design that?) the shifter is also a little more complicated than necessary. It is an automatic with a "manual sequential shift" feature. Someone not familiar with its operation--especially in a panic situation--could have thought they were repeatedly attempting to put the the lever into neutral when in fact they were just shifting between fifth & sixth.


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-recall18oct09-m,0,1040749.graphic

[Fumesucker]

45. That's true...

However, anything beyond a Model T is "more complicated than necessary.. :evilgrin:

"They can have any color they want, as long as it's black" -Henry Ford

"Parts omitted from the design cost nothing and cause no service problems" -Henry Ford

[MindPilot]

49. "Parts omitted from the design cost nothing and cause no service problems"

Yeah, but even old Henry knew you couldn't say that about manufacturing

Actually the "T" was a pretty complicated car to drive. Not only did you have to be able to double-clutch that non-synchronized transmission, you had to be know how to adjust ignition timing and fuel mixture for speed and road conditions. And starting the thing was downright dangerous!

[Fumesucker]

54. It's all in what you get used to..

I've driven T's several times and they are a bit of a handful but not really all that hard to learn.

And yes, starting a T could be damn dangerous, you sure didn't wrap your thumbs around the crank.. :wow:

[Mopar151]

77. Compression fracture of the wrist ="Ford Fracture"

[Chemisse]

89. How horrible for him

Not even being able to get it into neutral. What a tragedy.

[Odin2005]

38. But I thought Japanese cars were PERFECT!?!

You mean they actually fuck up on occasion just like our domestic car-makers? SACRILEGE!!!

[seabeyond]

51. they stopped being perfect a couple years ago. quality went into toilet

i was going to finally spend the money on a car that would last forever. get the toyota avalon. this was a couple years ago, and then agin in 2009. their rating plumetted

[ecstatic]

40. Was the car stuck in cruise control

and the floor mat stopped him from hitting the brakes (which usually resets cruise control speed)? What an awful incident!

[MindPilot]

41. No--supposedly the floor mat jammed the accelerator pedal.

[midnight armadillo]

47. Imagine you are panic-ing, filled with adrenaline, and you look at this shifter...

(picture is from the 2009 Lexus ES) Remember, you've only driven the car for a short time. Glance at the photo and tell me how to shift it into neutral. Or reverse/park/lower gear. Actually the tranmission wouldn't allow itself to be put in a lower gear at high speeds to protect itself, even though that would have helped tremendously.

Drivers of automatics know that you only shift into park when the car is stopped, and they practice that thousands and thousands of times every time they park the car. People follow their habits in an emergency, isn't that why the military, police, fire etc go through a lot of effort to train using realistic scenarios?

[seabeyond]

52. well, fuck. that is not an easy find, that neutral. geez. nt

[Fumesucker]

53. Looking at that pic, reverse and park are locked out..

Unless you move the shifter to the right..

Drive and neutral are available in the second most gate from the left, the one where the great majority of people are going to drive the vehicle the great majority of the time.

All he had to do was push the shifter forward.

I had a similar shifter in a 1965 GTO in about 1971, it's not exactly a new idea.

[midnight armadillo]

55. Unless he was in auto-manual mode in the leftmost gate

In that case, pushing forward would have tried to shift the gearbox up, and not into neutral.

And remember the guy hadn't driven the car - if he's a cop driving a Crown Vic he would spend a huge amount of time with a column shifter, right?

[Fumesucker]

56. That's pretty much what I said..

When I said that the great majority of people drive in the full auto mode, that basically means there are a few people who would be in the manual auto mode.

There is a chance he was in the leftmost gate but it's a fairly slim one.

And if he was in the leftmost gate then I have a hard time believing he didn't know it because the car would shift in a very un-normal manner in that gate.

[TheMadMonk]

59. Assuming he wasn't driving it in "sport" mode and then was more...

...concerned with the road ahead than looking down to figure out where the fuck neutral was in an unfamilliar car.

Why the fuck don't cars (particularly ones that are drive by wire) come with a big red e-stop button like is mandated on virtually any other piece of dangerous machinery.

And what about a separate supervisor computer which gives a big "Fuck you Charlie" to the main comp if it goes out of control. Hell 2 sensors, 1 AND gate and a bloody relay would do the job. (Hard braking + heavy accelleration = engine idle.)

[NutmegYankee]

64. Second column from driver, top position.

Easy. And I only drive stick shift.

[MindPilot]

69. Easy when you are looking at your computer screen.

Try it when the car you and your family are in is accelerating uncontrollably in traffic and in the time it takes to look down and figure that out you covered the length of a football field.

[NutmegYankee]

71. Everytime I rent a car, I study the shifter and make sure I understand it

I drive stick shifts and find all automatics strange, so I study the layout before starting the car. That is what you should always do with an unfamiliar car.

[high density]

100. Up and to the right one notch for neutral, left and down for lower gear

Not that hard, especially with a passenger to look at it. My car has a similar shift layout and I think even if I were not familiar with it, I could get it pushed up a notch to N.

[bvar22]

60. KISS.

Keep It Simple, Stupid.

My wife and I only own "simple" vehicles.
Luckily, my wife loves driving a "stick".
So do I.

[8 track mind]

61. something to consider

Most new vehicles throttles are controlled by a servo motor rather than the traditional throttle cable. To me this is an accident just waiting to happen because one shorted transistor could send the throttle wide open or completely shut. From what i understand, this is done to prevent damage to the engine and gearbox when the computer deems it's being "abused".

From the article it appears that the floor mats caused the throttle to hang. However, it exposes the flaw of not having a physical ignition switch.

I hate to play armchair quarterback here, but don't these engineers stop and say "Ok here is my design. Now what could possibly go wrong with this?"

[FarCenter]

66. Electronic keys and floor mats are both stupid ideas

There is no practical reason to not have a physical key that is inserted and turned to make a hard electrical connection to turn the engine on an off. This should be mandated as a safety feature -- convenience and marketing be damned.

New cars should not be equipped with floor mats. There is no reason to cover the carpet until the carpet is worn or discolored from use. Putting floor mats in a new car is like those people who cover their new living room furniture in plastic covers. What's the point?

[divideandconquer]

94. I agree floormats and these starter buttons are stupid

[high density]

101. Have you ever lived in a snowy or muddy environment?

The point is that a floor mat is replaceable while the carpet in a car generally is not. One winter/spring cycle in New England and the carpet in most cars would be worn out and permanently discolored.

[TexasObserver]

68. Recommend

[carlyhippy]

72. this is probably gonna be a stupid question, but what about yanking up the emergency brake

or would those had been out too? I guess this is something that we should all be educated about if we drive a vehicle, it could happen to any of us. I had a friend whose VW's accelerator became stuck, it was a stick, she put it in neutral and coasted, but we were not going no 120 mph, thankfully.

[Mopar151]

78. Simply not powerful enough.

Basiclly, they'll evaporate in a little puff of smoke.

[Mopar151]

87. The NASCAR guys have solved this

With the "Roush Interrupter"
CONCORD, N.C. -- Introduced in the fall of 2000, the Roush Ignition Interrupter System -- the only NASCAR approved automatic ignition interrupt system included in the 2002 NASCAR rulebook -- is now commonplace throughout NASCAR’s top three series.

The system is manufactured to shut off a racing engine system when the conditions of a "stuck throttle" exist, and has been track-tested for over 125,000 race miles with no documented component failures.

It works by sensing the intake manifold vacuum and the vehicle brake system pressure. The driver must only hit the brakes while the throttle is stuck for the system to shut down the engine ignition system.

The Roush Ignition Interrupter System includes two sensors that measure pressure inside the car. One sensor is located in the intake manifold, while the other is in the brake system. If the driver applies 1,100 psi (pounds her square inch) of brake pressure, and there is minimal pressure in the intake manifold indicating the engine is at or near full throttle, the ignition shuts off.

The system is designed to hold the ignition system in the inoperable mode until the system is manually reset. There is an additional switch added in parallel to the brake line pressure switch so the system's operation is insured in the event of a complete brake failure.
And short track/road race guys (like me) have used a simpler version for 20 years - an adjustable pressure switch, plumbed into the brakes, and adjusted to a pressure slightly higher than wheel lockup, which cuts current to the ignition.

And we have a real, quickly reached ignition switch, like this:

All you have to do is swat the red cover, it will shut the switch off!

[DainBramaged]

90. Beauty hey..........

All of my restorations through the years had at least one of those bad boy switches in the car MORE for anti-theft purposes than anything else, and a coupe had banks controlling fuel pumps, ignition, alternator current, air compressor for the air bags and radio power. They just looked cool too when you got in and flipped all of the switches to start her up.......

[Xithras]

106. That's not even needed on modern cars.

If you own a late model car with a throttle by wire system installed, the onboard computer already knows what the throttle status is at any given moment. That computer is also tied in to the braking system at several points. It's a trivial bit of compute code to say "If brake applied, set throttle to 0%"

[Mopar151]

108. They still lack a critical component

Pay attention! It's NOT just a brake light switch - far from it. A "brake overpressure" switch or sensor is necessary for this - you'd HATE a car which always went to "0 throtttle" when the brakes were touched - especially a front-driver.

AFIK, ABS does not read brake pressure at all, but comparitive wheel speed. Differences in wheel speed result in the slower wheel having the brakes momentarily release. "Dumb" ABS (like some GM) will shut off ALL the brakes if 2 wheels lock. Washboard road or 2 wheels on ice, 2 on pavement will cause this - I've seen it myself.

[aikoaiko]

91. I had a throttle get stuck wide open on a motorcycle -- its scary but you trouble shoot.

I was flying down hw 89 near Prescott AZ.

Obviously, I lived.

[file83]

93. Motorcycles have kill switches - something every car should have.

I mean, cars have those big HAZARD buttons, but no flippin' kill switch?

It's the easiest thing to implement, but they don't do it because it isn't "sexy and cool".

So I'm guessing you squeezed the clutch and hit the kill switch, right?

[aikoaiko]

96. Nope, It was a homemade chopper and the throttle cable conduit bent in the wind

and pinched the cable inside the conduit. I pushed the conduit toward the handle bars which allowed the cable to slide inside the conduit as it should and I slowed down. I little duct tape fixed the problem.

It was a ratty bike, but I love it.

[DainBramaged]

107. Quiet day in Toyota land...................

[Mopar151]

110. I threw a couple more logs on the fire n/t