Are you responsible for deaths that result from America's interventions overseas?

[sl8]

Poll question: Are you responsible for deaths that result from America's interventions overseas?

Do you feel personally responsible for deaths resulting from the U.S. actions in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why or why not?

Also, this is my first poll. Constructive criticism welcome.

[chrisa]

1. Depends.

I voted Yes, and I wouldn't support a war I wouldn't personally want to fight in. If I wouldn't fight, I couldn't in good conscience send another in my place.

[sl8]

2. Thanks for elaborating. n/t

[Liberation Angel]

3. The way i look at it, we are like the Germans under Hitler

We may not like and we may even oppose fascist wars and fascism, but unless we actively resist, we are complicit.

And I do not mean being vocal an voting for Obama and posting on DU, I mean some real form of resistance and noncooperation.

Since I have kids and cannot bring myself to go to prison at this point in my life, then I am responsible. I pay taxes which buy the bombs that kill innocents.

Anyone who is not actively and 100% resisting these wars is personally responsible.

Good poll question.

K&R

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. Are you calling for an armed resistance of the Obama Admins policies?

[inna]

23. what a thoroughly idiotic comment.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. Since you can't tell the difference between a comment and a question, we know who the idiot is.

[Liberation Angel]

74. Your question WAS a comment, and it was transparent, so who's the idiot?

A comment can be in the form of a question.

I don't think the response to your question was idiotic, but neither do i think your question was idiotic exactly although it betrayed an agenda.

I oppose violence or armed resistance (excapt in defense of imminent threats of violence as in self defense).

A resistance to war is by its very nature foreclose violence.

Satyagraha, which i believe in, accepts or responds to violence with passivity (although if innocents are threatened i do not foreclose defense of the defenseless)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

88. The person who assumed the question was a comment.

[Liberation Angel]

65. Well, I was a little ambiguous about what sort of resistance _ I have clarified below

I believe in Satyagraha.

But at this moment in my life (with dependents who need me not to go to prison for being a pacifist-activist) I cannot oppose this war in a way that i feel I SHOULD do. It is about my children's survival.

But I was not entirely clear what KIND of resistance in my post perhaps.

I believe in nonviolent resistance to stop wars and murder in our name: but that means filling the prisons as Gandhi did and willingness to go to prison for indefinite periods. i could not be sure my kids would survive if I did that .

On the other hand ... failure to stop these wars and death may result in more dangers for my kids and THEIR kids.

And on the other hand again Obama's policies (even if I find them morally reprehensible or unacceptable in many respects with respect to this war) MIGHT work and make the world for my children safer - even if many innocents die as a result.

On the policy issues I think Obama is morally wrong to permit practices which do not eliminate death to civilians and to our troops (I.e. I oppose all aggressive non-defensive actions, including occupation except where it is to prevent imminent death or serious harm to civilians - for example to protect them from a warlord's slaughter).

That is not to say that I know enough to conclude that Obama's policies MIGHT ultimately make a safer and more peaceful world : begging the question: does the desired end for the war following Obama's policies justify the means in my eyes? The answer is : not if one innocent dies unnecessarily via drone, "collateral damage", stray bombs, misguided missiles, DU poisoning etc due to these policies.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

87. Thanks for clarifying.

It was an honest question. I wondered how far your opposition needed to extend for your guilt to be absolved.

[asdjrocky]

59. I'll chime in.

What a stupid fucking question.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

92. How surprising, complex thought still eludes you.

I was wondering how far the posters opposition had to go to absolve them of responsibility.

[Liberation Angel]

98. I don't think there can be absolute absolution if that is what you mean

what has been done in our name has been done and with our tax payments too.

We paid for these things and cannot be absolved for contributing (at least not on this plane of reality).

Maybe the mother of some baby maimed or dead can forgive us. Maybe some priest can claim to absolve us. But karmically I doubt that'll wash away such sins as they are.

But as i have said elsewhere on this thread, there are degrees of culpability and responsibility (which ar two different things).

Feeling responsible for what my government does in my name with my help (tax $$$) is not the same as me being to blame for it or guilty (especially if I am doing all I can to stop it).

As a pacifist I have addressed what i think would absolve me, at least, of feeling responsible in the future: I could stop ALL cooperation/support with the unjust system that is causing these deaths abroad.

Satyagraha is peaceful noncooperation. If I engaged in hat (if anyone did full tilt) then they would be absolved for all actions which occur in the future which they opposed or did not support via $$$ or otherwise (working in the defense industry,buying stock in Halliburton or GE etc.).

I thought your question was fair as was the response of some who taken aback by it seeing it as a loaded question.

Revolution is change and I believe in change --- but nonviolently and democratically wherever that is possible.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

101. I appreciate your answer and respect your opinion.

It was somewhat of a loaded question, only because I have found that is the best way to get an true answer and they help stimulate debate. To be fair though your initial posts didn't mention non-violent opposition. Thanks again.

[Liberation Angel]

64. I am a pacifist: so i am saying Satyagraha is what is required: Nonviolent resistance: BUT...

since I am not willing to go to prison or engage in acts of resistance to stop these deaths, then I am responsible for them.

It is kind of like watching a house burn with children inside: I could TRY to save them (at the risk of my life or well being) or I could just watch and say "not my responsibility".

Anyone who is paying taxes and not actively resisting (nonviolently) is, in my opinion, complicit.

Any violent action (except self defense to prevent greater imminent harm) would be counterproductive and would add to the violence and death so - NO - I do not advocate ANY armed resistance to policies of this administration.

Violence begets violence. It is the armed conflict that i oppose here and in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[sl8]

10. Interesting.

I'm presuming that you answered "yes".

If you had marched with a sign protesting our military action(s), would that have resulted in you answering "no"? Given that America took these actions, what actions on your part part would absolve you of responsibility?

I'm not picking on you (I didn't actively protest either foreign entanglement), I'm genuinely curious.

[Liberation Angel]

60. I have marched with IVAW and my answer is still: we ARE personally responsible

While I do believe that Obama was faced with extremely complicated circumstances in terms of global peace and security in Iraq and Afghanistan and that whole region (including Israel/Palestine), the fact is that he has NOT really reduced or eliminated the killing of civilians by US forces or NATO.

Also US Casualties are rising in Afghanistan.

I see the Afghan war as hopeless, useless and a waste of resources that should be going to global survival and peace initiatives, not to mention to assist in the miserable state of our US economy (which failure results in more casualties at home, especially among veterans and their families).

I have done what i could to oppose these wars and these deaths.

Bt the fact is that I am unwilling to break the law in protest or go to prison in some form of passive or active resistance. Unless and until i am TOTALLY not cooperating then I feel I and all who fail to resist totally are personally responsible.

I may not be dropping the bombs or directing the drones, but my taxes pay for these weapons of death.

My analogy to Germany stands: Germans acted like they did not know or were not responsible for the death camps in their cities and towns. But they could not have NOT known (they were in denial - or pretended not to know). We are like that: we know what evil is being perpetrated in our names and with our financial support but we act like we are not responsible.

Just like the Germans we are failing to stop this violence (or do everything in our power to stop it).

As a pacifist, for me, this means nonviolent resistance. But to do this seriously, Satyagraha on a mass level, means prison.

Unless i am willing to take that step to save lives, i am responsible for that failure to act and feel all others here in the US are too.

[tomg]

105. As a pacifist and a CO, I

agree with your position. Right now I am overseas on a temporary ( 4 month assignment) so I am not active and I did decide to give the Obama administration a full year to make major movements toward withdrawal from both Iraq and Afghanistan. When I return,I will figure out what i have to do. We are responsible, at least those of us who are strict pacifists. Thanks for raising the issue (as uncomfortable as it is in many ways). It is a tough issue, particularly since after all of these years of a completely disasterous Republican travesty to have to stand against a President I agree with and admire on other issues and to whom i want to give my complete support. Like you, I don't know how far I will or can go ( age, cowardice, family). I've supported the Fellowship of Reconciliation and the Central Committee on Conscientious Objection, but I haven't faced jail in almost forty years ( and at the time I was quite naieve and had little, if any idea as to what they meant or entailed).

I don't, though, think it necessarily applies to the same degree with those who are not strict pacifists. Like you, I believe in satyagraha, but for those who are not strict pacifists, the issue of the war in Afghanistan could be subject to debate with people of good faith and conscience seeing it in very different lights. Well, it is a lot to think about.

[951-Riverside]

4. Yes, I worked for blackwater.

:sarcasm:

[sl8]

13. Shall I take that as a "no"?

That brings up an interesting point. Does someone's occupation reflect the amount of responsibility that they might bear? If not Blackwater, what about the U.S government? Defense contractor? Company with government contracts?

[Liberation Angel]

89. Gradations of responsibility. Primo Levy in "Survival in Auschwitz" discusses "gradations"

he was a chemist and discusses at length the varying degrees of collaboration or resistance to the nazis and to the humanity or lack thereof amongst the prisoners.

I found the idea of gradations a very useful analogy or analysis.

There are varying degrees of responsibility (which i think this poster speaking of Blackwater underscores). You might be a "peacekeeper" and still have to round up prisoners who get tortured. You might be the torturer or not. You might radio in an air attack on a village of insurgents but never fire a weapon.

You might pull the trigger or make the bullet that shatters a child's brain. Or you could write the contract.

This is what the concept of "little Eichmanns" means. Bureaucrats who go along to get along and ultimately make it all possible.

if people resisted all along the line then it could not happen.

So there is a spectrum of responsibility. There are gradations or degrees of complicity.

But any complicity at all puts you on the scale of responsibility in a measurable or quantifiable way.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

7. There are things, extreme things, that could be done to end my responsibility.

I could stop paying whatever portion of my taxes that I calculate goes to paying for War.

I could drop everything that I am doing and engage in Peace activism 24/7.

I haven't done these things.

[sl8]

14. Thanks for the elaboration.

I have not done any of those things, either.

[patrice]

33. I never supported the war. From the very first rumors, I have been and still am

quite vocal about it and have stood with a group on a certain street corner every week with our street signs, until just recently. I have been to D.C. about it several times and to NYC a couple of times. I helped organize other people to go to D.C. too. I will go to my grave glad that I yelled at Dick Cheney (from a distance at which he could certainly hear me) about it on two occasions when he came to our city, once before the Invasion and once after it was under way. I called many senators and representatives several times over during the run up to the IWR vote.

But all of that aside, something as ultimate as the killing of 1 million Iraqis who didn't need killing deserves ultimate responses, so the extremes I mentioned above aren't that extreme when compared to the war itself, so I AM responsible to the extent that I have not gone all of the way in my protest of this horror.

[ecstatic]

63. Great point. Those are the only two things that could

truly absolve responsibility.

[Liberation Angel]

66. I agree BUT here's the thing

Can you give ANY tax money to a fund which will use what it wants for the war?

There is no way to tease out the good tax payments from the bad.

if you pay ANY taxes at all a percentage will go to the war and killing of civilians and the deaths of our troops.

That is my problem: if i am not willing to protest, stop driving, even go to prison (or hide out-underground- and become a Freegan), stop paying ALL taxes, then i am still contributing and responsible.

This is not some bleeding heart liberal perspective.

It is deathly real.

When I buy gasoline I am paying for murder because the federal taxes will go to kill someone or send a US kid to her death or maiming.

When I work and pay taxes i am supporting these wars with my work and money.

Unless I abandon all that I am complicit (we all are).

[Libertas1776]

8. People on this board

sure like to say that the US is anything but democratic these days, but apparently feel that it is democratic enough that we all have a "say" or "personal responsibility" for the deaths committed by US occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't get that, I'm afraid.

And no, I do not feel personally responsible. My say or anti war feelings don't mean jack squat to the undemocratic military war machine.

[mike_c]

11. I wrestled with that issue and came to different conclusions....

As much as I'd like to say that no one listened when I objected, so I'm not responsible, I just can't. I AM responsible, no matter how vehemently I might reject responsibility. I voted against ALL of the administrations complicit in ALL of the wars that have been fought during my voting lifetime, including some democrats when they showed themselves to be warmongers, I marched, I write to my representatives and to the WH, I teach my convictions, and I try to live the example I'd like my country to live. But the authority under which the U.S. commits international crimes, and just does bad things, issues from all of us, not just the ones who approve. Bill Clinton didn't starve a million Iraqis by himself. We all gave him the authority to do it. George Bush the younger didn't invade two nations unnecessarily and go to war to puff up his ego all by himself-- Bush can't order a pizza without screwing it up-- he used the machinery of government built with our taxes, with our tacit approval, by our representatives, and he used our authority to go to war.

I just can't shrug off the responsibility. That's one reason I'm so passionate about the wars-- as long as they continue, I am responsible for crimes against humanity committed in my name.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. Your parents really did a number on you.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[patrice]

35. You don't believe that such responsibilities can be freely chosen?

- then there is no such thing as genuine morality.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. You can choose to feel guilty about anything you want.

[patrice]

39. There's a difference between guilt and responsibility.

I'm not guilty of what has been and is being done to the Iraqi people, but I am part of the situation that is responsible for making it possible. That situation is what it is in part because of what I am and even though what I might do about any of that might not change anything, that doesn't mean that I shouldn't do it, because even though it might not stop anything, the world is a different world for an action having occurred, successful or not, than it would have been had that action not occurred and even though that difference isn't the one that I want it to be, that does not mean that it does not matter.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

43. I missed where I said it doesn't matter.

[patrice]

45. My apologies for the implication. I was just making that point explicit.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

91. No worries.

[patrice]

40. P.S. It isn't about wanting to feel that way. It's about the facts.

Yeah, I could choose to lie about that, but I choose not to.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

44. So anyone who disagrees with your opinion is a liar?

[patrice]

46. Facts are not opinions. It is not my opinion that "we" have unnecessarily killed and helped to kill

about 1 million Iraqis, many, many, many of whom were innocent children.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

90. So someone can't know the facts and not feel personally responsible?

[sl8]

17. Thanks for the reply. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

41. Saying we're personally responsible for that is like saying those of us who like to drink alcohol

are responsbible for drunk driving incidents that involve injury or death.

[patrice]

42. It isn't about whether you can stop drunks from injuring or killing others, or stop

people from going to war, or stop people from having abortions, or whatever . . . it's about whether you do the things that you CAN do, or don't do the things that you can NOT DO, no matter how "small" and "inconsequential" they are, do or don't do them anyway, to affect the situation, to make some things more likely and other things less likely.

[cherokeeprogressive]

47. I VOTE.

This wasn't about "thinking globally and acting locally".

[patrice]

49. 2000, 2004 & the battle to reform Health Care/Insurance didn't reveal to you what "your" vote is?

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. MY vote is what I mark on the paper.

What's your point?

[patrice]

51. You mark on the paper what the corporate hegemony LETS you mark on the paper and then

they count it or not as the situation allows.

[cherokeeprogressive]

53. That may be what happens in YOUR county...

I guess you haven't read my profile. I worked for the Registrar of Voters in Orange County, CA until two years ago. My job was to train poll workers in the proper administration of the Polling Place. I wrote the book on how votes were to be cast at polling places. In fact, I wrote ALL the material concerning training and administration.

At the close of polls, I went to the warehouse where the votes were taken. I had a large hand in how they were counted.

Votes cast in Orange County California are counted exactly as they are cast.

Exactly.

You can take the words in the post I'm replying to and eat them, or put them "where the sun doesn't shine". Both are equally productive.

[patrice]

54. So, you're okay with how campaigns are financed AND the election wasn't stolen in 2000

AND there were/are no suits in Ohio courts about voting irregularities BECAUSE the votes in Orange County are counted?

I'm glad you vote. I vote too. I still care about it, but your thinking does not make sense to me.

[cherokeeprogressive]

55. Your issue should be with the people in Ohio counties who dropped the ball, or were dishonest

from the get-go.

Since elections are LOCAL things, I am confident that I did my job, voted my conscience, and made sure that votes in my county were counted as cast.

What happened in Ohio was beyond my scope of influence.

I'm okay with the fact that I acted LOCALLY.

[patrice]

56. Thank you for caring and thanks for the effort, but what happens is about much more than the vote.

I just disagree with your original premise, that the war was not about "thinking globally and acting locally". Everything is more or less directly or indirectly about what we are doing or not doing locally and not just in election years. And if you think small (easily done or not done) stuff doesn't matter, then I disagree with that too.

[Liberation Angel]

72. No - its like saying you gave the booze to a drunk driver or teenager

If we buy gasoline or pay federal taxes or even cigarets we support the deaths of civilians.

We may not be pulling the trigger but we are buying the bullets.

Your analogy doesn't work.

[Liberation Angel]

69. Do you buy gasoline? Pay taxes? If so then you are providing the resources for these deaths

to occur.

[Liberation Angel]

70. We are complicit if we do not nonviolently resist via Satyagraha or other means:

but that would involve, probably, abandoning our comfort zones.

as long as we fail to abandon our comfort zones to try to prevent these deaths by all peaceful means at our disposal, then we are responsible for them continuing.

[mike_c]

9. recommended....

This is something everyone needs to think about. The wars, the torture, the evil foreign policy-- it's all done in our names, on our authority, whether we like it or not.

[Liberation Angel]

67. Really - the fact that there are only SIX recommends (unrecs have buried this)

is really sad.
This is a really truly important subject to me.

It actually is defining for me and for DU in many respects.

WHAT are we to DO if we oppose this war or other ugly policies of our government.

Posting on DU does not absolve us of responsibility.

[anonymous171]

12. Nope. nt

[TexasObserver]

15. Yes. That's why it is my duty to speak out consistently against them.

[sl8]

19. Thanks for the response. n/t

[barbtries]

25. that's right

and i don't think there's a whole hell of a lot more that i can do. i vote, i write to my congress people, i demonstrate when possible. it is not my fault that the bad guys have been "winning" (i put that in quotes because it means so many more people lose). the outrage and the frustration are heavy enough without the burden of guilt that would result if i held myself responsible for these massive clusterfucks.

[Liberation Angel]

77. There's a difference between "feeling" that we are responsible and feeling guilty.

Feeling some responsibility for trying to STOP this is a GOOD thing.

Feeling that there is SOMETHING one can do and SHOULD do is important. Its healing. Its liberating.

Just because we bear some responsibility because we cannot seem to do enough to STOP it even though we are trying does NOT mean, imo, that we should feel GUILT or a BURDEN because we did NOT cause the clusterf*cks. We could not prevent them when they began.

But we are NOT powerless to act to stop them or reduce the damage.

SO, barbtries, feel GOOD that you are doing what you can because you are moral an good enough to FEEL responsible for the well being and lives of others. And you do what you can.

We could all probably do more,(I know I could and I try too) but by doing what you can do it makes a HUGE difference and if enough of us keep it up we can slow or stop the killing done in our names and with our tax contributions.

[barbtries]

94. the way the question was worded

i still say no. if the question had been "are you a responsible citizen?" i would have said yes. worded as it is, "responsible for the deaths caused by these wars" - i cannot unlink that statement from guilt. my daughter was killed, and the person who was "responsible" for her death was and remains guilty indeed.

i might have responded that i am responsible in this context if i had voted for gw and supported the wars but i never did, ever. i am responsible in the sense that being part of a government of, for, and by the people means we all have a responsibility to vote and to the extent we are able, to engage in the workings of that democracy. but i'm not sure that is even a matter of opinion.

you say my doing what i can "makes a HUGE difference." i only wish! i only wish.

when i was still living in CA i went into the CYA to teach victim impact classes to youthful offenders. that's not cover your ass, it's the California Youth Authority, and the people with whom i interacted were guilty of the most egregious crimes. most of them were gang members. at least there i could look into their eyes and with some of them see that there was still a spark of humanity within them, that possibly i could reach. that possibly somewhere down the line, there would be one less victim because of the work i had done. that was satisfying.

but these days, and with these wars, nothing i do seems to make a single whit of difference. i am astonished to note that this has been going on for over eight years! i have to make a living and i'm tired. i keep writing and i keep calling and i keep signing petitions but it seems as if the only people who can get in the same room with the people who are making the decisions are the bankers, the MIC, and the corporate lobbyists. (people guilty of the most egregious crimes imo)

i do strive to stay engaged in spite of this nearly hopeless perception i have. i feel anguished because these wars our country won't quit remind me so much of vietnam and iirc, popular sentiment against the war did not rise until some 30,000 americans had died over there. then finally the people took to the streets and the lawmakers understood that they had to end it, and the number of american dead still almost doubled before they finally did. will it take 50 to 60 thousand american dead to stop these senseless wars? i'm afraid that it may. at this point i feel responsible enough to do eveything in my power to ensure that my son and grandchildren don't end up among the dead.

that's not even touching on the innocents whose lives are destroyed or ended in foreign countries because of the aggression of the US. nor on the maimed and injured americans, nor on those whose psyches have and will sustain irreparable damage, effectively ruining their chances for a happy and fulfilled life.

i guess it boils down to semantics, and my saying "no" absolves me of nothing. i can say that when the people finally do get together to change the status quo i will then know i have done my part. i knew bush would throw a war before he ever took office, and have been steadfastly and vocally against the wars to this day. eventually i suppose the losses will rise to numbers higher than the majority of americans will countenance, and finally these travesties will end. no telling what happens then. no way to really affect it either. at least that's how it feels.

[Liberation Angel]

96. You are not alone BUT: recognizing this feeling makes a HUGE difference

See my post on Cindy Sheehan below and in Editorials (I started a new thread on her blog post as it hits a nerve).

For me what is CRITICAL is that e have the HUMANITY to TRY to do what we can and YOU DO!

That is why I say it is HUGE.

Because, like Cindy Sheehan and many others, if we give up or somehow feel that we are not responsible anymore because it is HOPELESS then THEY (the bad mofo corporate fascoist warmongers) have won.

I am something of a Holocaust/holocaust scholar. My father worked with the antifascist resistance in Vichy France and later in Argentina. He taught me lots about how the fascists work to destroy hope.

Feeling that you are to BLAME is DIFFERENT from saying you have a responsibility as a citizen to OPPOSE what you know in your heart is wrong.

No one is saying responsibility is to say you are to BLAME for the awfulness of these wars or their horrors.

So I get where you are coming from.

But keep the faith.

The very FACT that we have consciences left speaks to our humanity. That is a gift which we must hold onto dearly. We did NOT case these deaths or horrors and we are TRYING to stop them. That is enough to remove the burden. If we do what we can do, as much as we can manage, then we can keep that faith in hope for a brighter future because we have not lost our humanity despite all odds and all the power and money in the world working against us.

[barbtries]

102. "weary and teary"

i marched with Cindy Sheehan and 10,000 others in LA years ago. it was emotionally galvanizing. it felt like we were doing something.

barely made the news, gwbush and his cronies carried on as if it hadn't happened, and 95% of the country couldn't care less. maybe that's down to 85% - i don't know.

but yes, i think that you and i are on the same page. fwiw i believe that cindy sheehan will go down in history as one of the most important catalysts for peace in our time. it does really suck that it hasn't happened already.

i empathize as well with how she feels after attending a rally with only 400 people showing up in SF. here in Raleigh there isn't even a code pink chapter or a meetup to protest the wars. if i didn't have a job here that offers opportunity for my family and my future that i cannot afford to forego i would move back to LA or to DC as well, so that i could be more active.

at least i'm close enough to drive up there, if the money's there and the march is on a weekend. i keep looking. i expect and hope that by and by there will be a sea change in the population at large and this shit will END. just wish it was already.



i'm gonna go look up your post and read the rest of Cindy's blog now. peace.

[imdjh]

16. The citizens of a nation can be held accountable for the acts of that nation to the degree...

... that another nation has the ability to hold them accountable.

[sl8]

20. Thanks for the response. n/t

[Liberation Angel]

75. What about the citizens OF that nation? WE can hold ourselves accountable!

and i do.

Our children and many generations will pay the price for our failure to stop these unjust and immoral practices (all of them).

Obama has the power to do much more than he has.

We have the ability to do much more than we have.

We are both failing and are responsible for that.

Ourselves.

No other nation will ever call us to account for Obama's war once he owns it (which he does now).

[barbtries]

21. i said no

it's true that we're a democracy, but the pres who started these wars was not elected democratically; if the elections had been decided fairly, they wouldn't have happened, and neither would 911.

[sl8]

22. Thanks for the reply. n/t

[malaise]

26. An illegal invasion and occupation

is not an intervention(that's Iraq). Killing civilians with drones or with depleted uranium is not an intervention.

[sl8]

27. I'm not sure that I understand your objection.

The use of "intervention" was my attempt to phrase the question as neutrally as I could.

It's not clear to me if you consider our presence in Iraq an intervention or not, perhaps due to my density. I'd appreciate clarification.

Would you consider our presence in Afghanistan a intervention?

[Fla_Democrat]

28. Other: No

I didn't pull a trigger, flip a switch or push a button, so I do not feel personally responsible for diddly. For all the political power I wield, and all the influence I have in Washington, you might as well as a flea if it feels personally responsible for the dog biting the mailman. :smoke:

[starroute]

29. I think the real question is whether we benefit economically

For decades, it was apparent that everybody in the US benefited from US dominance and willingness to overthrow other countries' governments on behalf of US corporations, whether we liked it or not. Plenty of guilt to go around there, even if you were doing the marching with signs thing.

These days, maybe not so much. The broker we get, the less responsible I feel for the results of US intervention abroad. It's becoming apparent that the US military has become a tool of corporate interests -- and not even a very effective tool at that -- and has less and less to do with any kind of national interests.

[elocs]

30. Just "no". n/t

[dusmcj]

31. I've done my best to throw the defiler fucks out of office and don't subscribe to white guilt

I do subscribe to ethics and responsibility for the species, something that most cultures could use more of given their histories. We are not alone in our iniquity.

[madamesilverspurs]

32. Not sure that I'm responsible, but I'm damned sure

that I am highly pissed off about some of the things that have been done in my name without my consent. It's a hell of a mess, and the death and damage can't be erased by my disapproval. That said, I can't help but wonder if we really should have descended on Washington with torches and pitchforks instead of just talking about it.

[Liberation Angel]

99. Cindy Sheehan is doing it, she says (see post #95

she says she is protesting no more in San Francisco and is going to DC to throw herself in the gears of the war machine.

Go Cindy!

[exman]

34. With a stolen election? or two? No way .

Those that sabotaged the democratic process must be held responsible.

[Strong Atheist]

58. Belated Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Greyhound]

37. In the end, we are. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. End of the week? End of the month? End of the year? Decade? Century?

End of what?

:shrug:

[Liberation Angel]

84. Until the end of the war, we are...

in the final analysis, right now Obama owns these wars and Obama is our cammander in chief.

As long as we as citizens support the president's policies and do not do everything in our power to oppose these wars, we are responsible.

It may be that we have other priorities (survival for one) but the fact is that we pay for these deaths if we pay any taxes to the federal government. And if we fail to resist it, we are ultimatly complicit in our silence or acts of omission.

[Greyhound]

106. The end of the accounting.. We are the government, the fact that we've

abdicated our responsibility doesn't change that.

[winyanstaz]

52. I have been outspoken from the get-go about apposing these wars.

And I shall continue to do so until these wars end.

[Kickin_Donkey]

57. Nope.

I actively protested against the wars.

The responsibility lies with Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Powell, people in Congress who supported the war like Joe Lieberman and every Republican and some Democrats, and the lapdogs in the media.

[asdjrocky]

61. And the torture.

We're responsible for the torture, don't forget about that.

[ecstatic]

62. Of course we are. Even if we did not vote for the person doing it

It is being done in our names and with our tax dollars. No need to pretend otherwise.

[annabanana]

68. A sense of responsibility is what makes you a Citizen.

If you don't care, you are not an American the way the founding Fathers intended.

[JonLP24]

71. A friend of mine died in Iraq

More may have died as I'm unsure since I left the Army in '08.

Do I feel responsible? No. Is Bush or anyone that manufactured lies to start this war responsible? Hell yes.

[Liberation Angel]

80. That is very sad ... and I am sorry

I understand your perspective.

I think the idea that Bush et all are guilty is right on.

Do we as citizens have responsibility for the wars our leaders perpetrate?

I think we do. But that is not the same as saying e are to BLAME for these deaths.

We may not be able to stop them.

Bt we should try IMHO.

[JonLP24]

85. I understand

I feel there is enough blame to go around. For example the people who voted for Bush in '04, not counting those that voted for Bush '00 and changed their mind in '04 knowing what kind of leader he is. The news media for cheer leading for this war effort and so forth.

I find it hard to put the blame on those protesting or those who were against it from the lead up.

Thank you. :hug: Here is who I was talking about: http://www.iraqwarheroes.com/bowmanl.htm

The articles posted have some minor details wrong but the gist of what happened is true but that's the news media for you.

[Liberation Angel]

93. That really brings home the senselessness of it all. I marched with IVAW in Denver...

I spent a few nights in the "Freedom Cages" outside the Denver center during the Democrat Convention with the Iraq Veterans against the War and marched as a marshall in their action against the war (they were successful in getting Obama to meet with their representatives and to deliver a petition to end the war to the convention after a HUGE protest.

The stories of the injured and damaged and wounded - as well as the feelings expressed by the actual Iraq veterans opposing the war (and three platoons marched in full uniform, some parade dress, in protest against the war) --- is what has moved me to push so hard for recognition of ALL of our responsibility as civilians for working tirelessly to STOP these wars peacefully.

Nothing really speaks to me about the insanity and uselessness of war than the veterans who lived through it and oppose it despite giving all they had to do what they thought was right when they joined up.

There is an interesting video of the march here:

http://vodpod.com/watch/973164-iraq-veterans-against-war-dnc-protest


I was in the middle of this and it was quite scary. But the Vets and Obama ultimately kept Denver from burning down that day.

Thank you for sharing your friend's memorial site. There are insufficient words to express the sorrow...

I am sorry you lost such a friend, whom it seems you were lucky to have known and loved...

[JVS]

73. No. I have almost no input into such decisions. Blame the rulers.

[Liberation Angel]

76. Do you input you tax dollars? Drive? Do you protest? Are we like Germans in 1938? 1933?

Do you put your signs in the yard or out in the streets?

Or do you accept what is done in our name by our leaders?

Are we just like the Germans under Hitler who said "I'm not responsible?" Nothing I can do?

[JVS]

78. I refuse to take responsibility when my input is being put in a box every other November...

and being offered a choice between shit and shit lite. Furthermore, our system of government was designed to minimize the input of the non-moneyed, so fuck those assholes. It's their fucking fault.

[Liberation Angel]

79. So I guess I have to ask:

is Obama, to you, shit lite?

[JVS]

81. If my lack of repsonsibility for the wars makes me a 1938 German, does presiding over ...

the continuation of these wars make Obama Hitler?

[Liberation Angel]

97. No because...

no one could be that bad.

I would argue that Bush (both/Cheney/Rummy) were Hitler.

Obama IS winding down Iraq an trying to figure out what do do in Afghanistan.

THIS is where we can be vocal and make a difference...

THIS is where we are responsible...

But NOBODY can be Hitler exactly.

And Obama is NOT EVER going to remotely be Hitler or like Hitler. Hitler was unique in all history (so far) with the possible exception of Stalin who is Hitler's mirror or other coin side.


No - Obama is more like LBJ with Vietnam. He wants to win but can't and his banking friends want the war so he has waffled even though he wants the damn thing finished.

Problem is death and murder is death and murder and when we kill civilians it is murder and a war crime. OUR war crime and Obama's.

But by degrees there is no comparison.

[SOS]

100. Re: Germany 1932

In the 1932 presidential election Hindenburg got 49.6% of the vote, Communist Thalmann got 13% and Hitler got 30%.

But after Hitler seized power in January 1933, a person would be shot simply for making an anti-Nazi comment in public.

It wasn't as simple as "I'm not responsible. Nothing I can do."
The real question was "Do I choose to make a political statement, knowing that I will be executed within 24 hours"?

If putting up a "Bush sucks" yard sign would have meant facing a firing squad the next day, would we still do it?

We have to mobilize and fight now, before it ever comes to that.

[Liberation Angel]

103. If this is a nonviolent fight, then I am on board, But...

The fact is that to effectively do a Satyagraha movement in the Untied States would take hundreds of thousands of people willing to fill up the jails and do nonviolent resistance and noncooperation.

A handful here and there will not do it. Armed conflict will not do it (nobody can beat these guys at the game of fascist violence). Anarchy won't do it.

Only organized protests where the jails are filled will do it.

political action MIGHT do it, but it does not look too promising (the Obama route is a start but only baby steps).

But on a personal level, unless we are willing to actively oppose (nonviolent noncooperation) which ultimately will probably result in prison, we bear responsibility for failing to try HARD ENOUGH to stop the deaths abroad 9and, for that matter, at home).

It is probably only because I have children who depend on me that I am not capable of committing to that kind of action and when they are grown I imagine that my freedom, on balance, may not be worth relinquishing if such actions were to be futile. So I bear responsibility for being unwilling to "fight" even nonviolently, in a way which might absolve me.
Cindy Sheehan says she is going to Washington to throw herself into the wheels of the war machine (in a blog post today). Commitment like that on the parts of many many or a large number of very savvy people to make it effective.

This Afghan thing is tricky though. We have created a aituation in that region which must be handled intelligently to prevent future problems.

More troops?

Total withdrawal?

Bush and Cheney kicked up a shit storm of epic proportions and Obama is like trying to shovel it with a teaspoon while it is drowning us and them in a vile cesspool of death and chaos.

I am hoping Obama has some real idea how to improve things without sending more troops.

[Liberation Angel]

82. Surprising to see only 6 recs on this thread: this is an important question.

Morally we as citizens MUST feel some responsibility for what is done in our name and with our $$$ contributions to our government.

Our money pays for the drones and bullets and the gas to send our troops into the fields of death and murder.

So why this would get unrecc'ed is beyond me

[Warren Stupidity]

83. Even if you think you aren't responsible you are.

You don't get the blood off your hands just by showing up at a demonstration.

[Hippo_Tron]

86. Until we have a better understanding of the causes of war, I'm not ready to say

But the fact is that we don't understand what causes war a whole lot more than Thucydides did.

[create.peace]

108. cui bono? the defense contractors and war materiel providers....

at least in the wars of the last few centuries. if the manufacturing of war materiel was non profit, i bet there would be more investment in other places.

[Liberation Angel]

95. A Message from Cindy Sheehan ....

Hopeless? by Cindy Sheehan
Posted on October 18, 2009 by dandelionsalad


by Cindy Sheehan
Featured Writer
Dandelion Salad
Cindy Sheehan’s Soapbox Blog
Cindy Sheehan’s Soapbox
Oct. 18, 2009

I attended a march and rally in San Francisco today that had about 400 people in attendance. The numbers were low and so were the spirits.
People were leaving early and many were just dejected at the low turnout on such a beautiful day. I wonder how many of the ones who did show up that we would have lost if there were bad weather?
I gave a speech there and in it I said that was the last march/rally that I would attend in San Francisco and that I was going to move to DC to try and throw my body on the gears of the Machine there to bring real action and not just symbolic uselessness.

I don’t know if I can do it, because I know for sure that just me, or 10 or 20 or even 400 can’t make enough noise or cause enough trouble to make a difference.
Not only have we collectively marched millions of miles and signed millions of petitions and made millions of phone calls to our elected officials, but many people also put all of their hope eggs in the basket of another war- monger and where has that gotten us? Nowhere except deeper into quagmires and please don’t tell me that Obama wants peace when he is a pawn of the Machine that I have been trying so hard to stop.

Since my son was killed, I have thrown everything I have at the machine. Every penny I have, every ounce of energy, every relationship and even my health have been sacrificed to end the wars and five years later there is very little to show for such a profound investment and the even sadder part is that I am not the only one in the struggle. Multiply these sacrifices by thousands of us and there’s a whole lot of heartache for zippity-do-dah.

As evidenced by poor showings at anti-war marches and rallies all over the country since the Democrats came back into power in 2006, I am growing more convinced that very few people care at all about the wars and the killing and those of that do are growing weary and teary.

More at...

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/hopeless-by-cindy-sheehan/

[LostInAnomie]

104. No, that would be ridiculous.

I voted against those that supported the wars. I protested against the wars. I raised money and donated to those that ran against the war. That is about all that a person can legally do.

Not like any of that mattered at the time. People always seem to forget the political climate in those years when the wars started. Anti-war opinions were utterly dismissed by politicians and the media. We did not matter. They were going to war with or without our approval. So, it's correct of me to was my hands of all responsibility.

[NeedleCast]

107. Yes, but not for the reason you have in your poll

I was in Afghanistan and actually killed Taliban. I sleep well.

[create.peace]

109. you seem pretty angry on your blog, though, just sayin'...nt