Why didn't VT Campus Police "drop-tones" at the first shooting scene?

[liberalnurse]

I'm sensing they were out of their element. Why? Because they did not sound an all out alert to secure the campus after a quick check at scene #1. They had no weapon/gun for a SI/HI nor did they have an assailant at the scene; thus a fresh murder. Someone was armed and out on the campus...and close enough to hunt down. I think letting the media talk about a possible 2nd gunman theory is a major, deliberate distraction.

If tones were dropped; all agencies, fire, rescue, sheriff, state and local police would respond ASAP. With immediate manpower, they should of stopped any additional students entering the campus with fire engines, cops etc....while securing the classrooms. They would of had enough manpower and time.

I think VT Campus Police are liable. Sub-standard actions. Heck, I'm a nurse an know this much.

Quick reference:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drop+tones

1. Drop Tones:

Phrase. drop (verb) tones (noun)

The act of transmitting an electronic tone or set of tones by radio signal to alert a person or group of people. Terminology typically used by public safety dispatchers and emergency personnel.

Engine 11 to Fire Dispatch, drop tones for an additional EMT to respond to the scene of the accident

[Midlodemocrat]

1. The kids were who there and survived feel the police aren't to blame.

[wakeme2008]

3. Not what I am reading... they are saying why didn't they get an email

like the last time.

[liberalnurse]

6. Standard "drop-tones"

and securing a crime scene perimeter would be more effective, dependable and could save lives. Preventing any additional students/staff into the campus was necessary as they did not have the weapon or assailant. Obviously the risk became a sad reality.

Drop-tones stimulates the police like a hit of crack. They live for the moment.

[Midlodemocrat]

11. Did you get phone calls from Tech kids and parents yesterday?

Because I did.

The first calls starting coming at right before 8AM.

[wakeme2008]

30. Here

http://www.roanoke.com/vtshootingaccounts/wb/113341

Why was there a lag of more than two hours after the first shootings before an alarm was e-mailed campuswide — around the time the second, more deadly burst of carnage occurred? And more generally, some security experts wondered, was the school’s crisis planning and emergency communications system up to the task?

Clearly, something went terribly wrong.

Bombarded with security questions at afternoon and evening news conferences, Virginia Tech President Charles Steger said authorities believed the shooting at the West Ambler Johnston dorm, first reported about 7:15 a.m., was a domestic dispute and thought the gunman had fled the campus after killing two people.

[liberalnurse]

4. They are not mature enough

to make an informed decision. Any Urban Officer would know what to do immediately. The campus was the scene and it was not secured. Only the one dorm.

Think of it this way....as an example:

If an Air Force Base had a shooting/murder in a barracks and the gunman was not contained in custody with weapon (or he/she was dead at the scene)............Would they only secure that barracks or the entire base?

[Midlodemocrat]

12. Glad to see you've got it all figured out.

:eyes:

[pampango]

23. Old/mature enough to be soldiers in Iraq, but not mature enough

to make informed decisions on who to blame (except for those students who do blame those whom we think should be blamed).

[wakeme2008]

2. IMHO the head of security will be looking for a new job...

He assumed the first killer left campus

[liberalnurse]

7. Exactly.......

He is/was way out of his element. He apparently got lazy and never kept up with skills.

[LostinVA]

9. The VT cops are REAL cops

I'm not a cop booster by any means, but as of right now, I am not faulting their actions yesterday.

And, I;'m betting there are zero facilities for any type of "drop tone" thing.


on edit" lest people forget: there was a shooting at Tech by an escaped convict last August. The campus police did indeed do a "lockdown," and did a damned fine job and were rightly lauded. This was a different situation, so they handled it differently.

Many students are not faulting either the cops nor the Administration right now. I believe that people who survived this rampage ARE mature enough to decide who they should blame. I refuse to patronize them.

[Midlodemocrat]

13. .

:thumbsup:

Easy to judge from behind a monitor isn't it, LostinVA?

[LostinVA]

17. Yup, sure is

:sigh:

This is diffixult enough to deal with without all of thsi stuff.

[liberalnurse]

27. It goes over their radio...Dispatch sends them out.

All Officers have one at their side when on duty ...some even when off duty. Once tones are signaled, all who hear the tones immediately check in....Like a Code Blue at the hospital.

[liberalnurse]

37. I apologise, they are real cops....

They just were in over their heads with a double homicide and an armed gunman still at large. This will be a learning experience.

[BlackVelvet04]

38. It would be really, really

nice if all of the critics would hold off until all the facts are in and allow us in the area to figure things out and grieve for our dead.

I can't believe that this tragedy has become just something else for people to argue about and politicize.

I believe the police and the Tech administration did the very best they could given the information they had. My cousin who attends Tech and does live on campus seems to think the same thing.

[William769]

5. From what I have seen , they considered it a domestic dispute (& rightly so).

They had a description of the vehicle and were looking for it. Seems reasonable to me.

|ON EDIT: before I get slammed, Hindsight is 20 20.

[liberalnurse]

8. No matter the motive.....

The scene was never secured. Rationale in my previous notes. There is no hindsight about it....They were only ret-a-cop level, arrogant or ignorant but they did not reach out for back-up in an unsecured scene. Too back the campus is 2,600 acres...It was the scene. Preventing additional student attend class was the failure. Remember, they knew the assailant was at large and armed. That is all they needed to initiate dropped tones.

[William769]

14. In my professional career I have learned it is stupid, to play the blame game

When all the facts are not in. And guess what the blame game has already started. So I guess you know what I think about it.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

22. Yawn. Boy, this is getting tiresome.

You obviously know NOTHING about the VT police and security departments, so how about you stop speculating?

[Robbien]

10. Excuse but that is not right

The campus is spread out all over the city. Why would you close down sites miles away from the first shooting?

[LostinVA]

16. Exactly -- I've been to Tech

It is a sprawling campus -- as big as a good-sized town.

[seabeyond]

15. i think the expectation that two murders = mas murder is unrealistic.

i dont think the police dropped the ball. i dont think they should have gone to automatic lock down in their thinking. i can reasonably see the police looking at the scene and assuming the action was over with and time to begin the investigation.

[johnnie]

18. My thoughts

If they would have had a full blown lock down and the shooter had left the campus, people would be freaking out because they missed classes or something. People will always find some sort of blame.

There are 2600 square acres to cover and over 35,000 people on campus at any given time. That is a lot of people and lot of land to cover in even two hours time.

Of course I know there will be a full blown investigation, people will lose their jobs and no one will be satisfied. In my opinion, they didn't make any major mistakes in what they did.

[Midlodemocrat]

20. Did you see this?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266460,00.html

"Parents" calling for firings. Yup. One ENTIRE set of parents. :eyes:

[johnnie]

24. The guy just sounds like an ass

"However, John Shourds said he had doubts about the effectiveness of Virginia Tech’s campus police from the start. He called the force, “an Andy Griffith and Barney Fife” operation.

"They are really small police force for 20,000 students and they are not the best and the brightest,” said Shourds."

Yet his daughter is safe because the school took the actions they did. :crazy:

[One_Life_To_Give]

19. Lockdown 50,000 people for every shooting?

You want to lock down the entire VT capus for every shooting? Some 40-50,000 people and how many square miles of open campus. We might as well lockdown Dorchester then, probably not more than 100 times a year for that section of Boston. Now what about LA, Detroit, etc?

How many shootings occur on the average day. And how many square miles and people will we lock down for the day over each shooting?

The guy was nuts and unfortunatly we get these cases every so often. You can't respond to every fire on the assumption it's 9/11, and you can't respond to every gun crime like you would of ideally responded to this.

[trumad]

26. I think it's absolutely legitimate to question this response.

The first deadly attack, at a dormitory around 7:15 a.m., left two people dead. But some students said they didn't get their first warning about a danger on campus until two hours later, in an e-mail at 9:26 a.m. By then the second attack had begun.

Two students told NBC's "Today" show they were unaware of the dorm shooting when they walked into Norris Hall for a German class where the gunman later opened fire.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/04/17/va_tech_president_gunman_was_student/

I mean what the fuck---- no tightened security--- no warning to students that a killer was on the loose... because he was you know.

[William769]

31. Most definitely we need this everywhere!

:eyes:

[liberalnurse]

35. That's how they secure the scene.

Block every entrance with Officers, stop additional traffic into the school. Empty out the classrooms/Halls. It's not that hard....If they dropped tones the response would be intense. Instead, they relied on emails????????? They let students attend class......very negligent.

[One_Life_To_Give]

39. This isn't a 1 building school! National Guard Req.

There looks to be 60+ major buildings over the few square miles that make up the main campus. At 4 entrances per building thats only 240 police officers to control those. Maybe another two dozen police cars to block the roads that go thru campus. (I assume you could use City Highway workers to handle the detoured traffic that must now be re-routed around the campus. With support from maybe another dozen officers. )

Now VT has maybe 40 uniformed officers and another 55 or so in Blacksburg. Of course on a Monday morning there would only be maybe 35 on duty. Perhaps another 15 since it was clode to shift change. SO 50 officers max. 60 buildings, a couple of major thruways plus side roads, 1 crime scene, 50,000 people just within the main campus area. And what in 99.9% of the time the perp has run and nobody else will be getting shot at least till police catch up with him.

[liberalnurse]

36. The security issue

is that they had a homicidal armed gunman at large, on the primary campus. The shooting was fresh. Only one Dorm was secured. OOPS.

They didn't prevent additional people from entering the campus...and let them attend class as if business was usual at the "primary campus" where there are several student Halls in a circle....that would of been more acceptable and reasonable. They could of easily posted Officers at each Hall....just like at Capitol Hill. By dropping tones, you summons and alert all available units....STAT. That could of been done easily. They probably did that with the onset of the 2nd shooting. Did you notice the response? That appeared sufficient...just a little late.

[Virginia Dare]

25. I think it's premature at this point to judge their actions...

at any rate, they did the best they could under the circumstances, there is no way they could have known what they were dealing with at the time. This could have happened at any college campus in the country, I really think it's unfair to beat up on the VT police before we know all the facts. I can understand how some parents would be angry and upset however, knowing the danger that their children were in.

[trumad]

28. There was a killer on the loose and no warning about it.

There's simply no explanation for this.

[Virginia Dare]

29. Unless they thought they had already caught the killer...

it's my understanding they were holding somebody for questioning when the second shootings occurred. It was sloppy police work, no doubt, but it's a plausible explanation.

[trumad]

32. OK---

my objections is against those who are screaming that we are heartless SOBs for even asking about this.

Sloppy police work could have very easily led to the death of 33 kids.

[Virginia Dare]

33. True, it's a legitimate question...

I'm just disgusted with the pack mentality among the press right now, jumping to a lot of conclusions. That's a heavy load to lay on the police at this point before we know the facts.

[trumad]

34. I agree---

we ask questions here on DU--- we're not the MSM, we're just a bunch of citizens who try to make sense of shit like this.