Rocket science: "Early Spankings Make for Aggressive Toddlers, Study Shows"

[HopeHoops]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20090915/hl_hsn/earlyspankingsmakeforaggressivetoddlersstudyshows;_ylt=Aq.Z_9P1w9PjTIdNP_d96x.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTQ0OWptbjZsBGFzc2V0A2hzbi8yMDA5MDkxNS9lYXJseXNwYW5raW5nc21ha2Vmb3JhZ2dyZXNzaXZldG9kZGxlcnNzdHVkeXNob3dzBGNwb3MDOARwb3MDNQRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX2hlYWRsaW5lX2xpc3QEc2xrA2Vhcmx5c3Bhbmtpbg--

Damn that's a long URL! Shit!

We never once hit our children and they've always been described as perfectly behaved. You can do far more with expectations than with physical violence.

On Edit:

Post #9 reminded me of Heinlein's "Stranger In A Strange Land". This is not a spoiler if you haven't read the book.

Background: A child is born on route to Mars and is the only survivor of the mission. He is raised by the Martians. They have no concept of humor. A subsequent mission returns him to Earth.

The connection: At the zoo, Michael witnesses a large chimp brutally beat a smaller one into submission. After the larger one leaves, the beaten chimp proceeds to beat a smaller chimp into submission. At this point, Michael laughs for the first time. He finally understands humor. It may seem like a stretch, but it is not. It is irony. Teaching children that violence is the answer to the problems is no different than teaching them the alphabet. It is just a lesson to be learned.

[Ezlivin]

1. "If you don't breast feed 'em, they grow up mean."

That's what I learned from watching "Raising Arizona."

[HopeHoops]

5. I loved that movie. Especially the hand grenade pin scene.

Breast feeding is just what is best for them.

[Walk away]

2. Or just an interesting first date! .....n/t

[Kadie]

3. Click your link and re-copy the url.

You will see that it is shorter.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20090915/hl_hsn/earlyspankingsmakeforaggressivetoddlersstudyshows


Don't know why it is that way, but I have done that in my posts before.


Oh,

and thanks for the story. Will definitely read it.

[Jo March]

4. And I've seen the opposite - folks who never spanked with horrid children

I think that the expectations and boundary-setting works best with kids.

It's the ones who don't do even that and then say, "Well, we don't spank our children" as the children run amok that annoy the hell out of me. It's like, good for you. You don't spank but you don't freaking parent either!!!

[HopeHoops]

8. It isn't about spanking - it is about parenting.

I'm disgusted by parents who just give in when a child is whining. Grow up yourself, idiots! If you aren't mature enough to be a parent, don't fuck! My wife teaches kindergarten and some of the kids completely rule their parents. They throw massive temper tantrums when she enforces the rules because they have no concept of having to conform to rules. Not surprisingly, the worst offenders are from the most wealthy parents. She has parents working two jobs and driving cars that barely make it in and out of the lot. Most of those kids are well behaved. The rich ones are there so the non-working parent can go play - babysitting. They'd use public kindergarten, but her center will keep the kids from 6:30 in the morning until 6:30 at night. Some of them are there that long.

[sandnsea]

14. Well then read the article again

Because they tested low income kids whose parents are more likely to spank. Completely the reverse of what you just described.

Every child is different and every situation is different. What works for one will destroy another.

Although I don't think any one year old needs to be spanked. A thunk on the hand isn't the worst thing in the world if they just won't leave xyz that will kill them alone. And sometimes you can't move whatever it is that they keep going after, like a wall heater in the living room.

[Jo March]

18. Exactly. My post was for the self-congratulatory ones who don't spank

but still have rotten kids. But for some reason they think they are good parents because they don't spank. Meanwhile, their kids are running amok in the grocery store and pulling shit off the shelves and acting crazy.

[margotb822]

144. Exactly! I see it every day

I think, unfortunately, it's passed from generation. People who were not raised by skilled, dedicated parents don't know how to be skilled, dedicated parents. They let their emotions take over and resort to violence. I saw a woman spanking her toddler with a flipflop, yelling "Stop f***ing crying!" I knew she was frustrated, but she didn't know how else to remedy the situation. And, when her daughter grows up, she likely won't know what to do as a parent either.

[Warpy]

13. I think it depends on a definition of spanking

I know people who reserved the open handed swat on the diaper--enough to make a noise and get the kid's attention but not enough to cause pain--for when the kid ran out into the traffic for the third time. Those kids did OK.

I also know people who were so concerned their kids grow up free and non violent that the kids were little savages with temper tantrums extending well into the school years.

I also know spankers who slapped hands and paddled bottoms repeatedly and those kids are a mess, sneaky and untrusting.

The open handed swat to get the kid's attention during that egocentric hedonism stage of toddlerhood is part of being able to set limits with a child not yet able to reason. Those limits should be set verbally with older kids.

Parents who don't set those limits do as much damage as parents who beat the hell out of their kids in the name of discipline. Both approaches are wrong.

All kids are different and so are parents. What works for one kid might not work for another. I'm just going by my (too many, dammit) years of observation of how kids were raised and how they turned out.

[Jo March]

21. Amen, Warpy! It all depends on the parenting and, to an extent, the kids

I knew a woman who had a kid who was evil. Seriously. The kid was just born with evil in him. At 4, his parents feared for their lives as he would hop up in their laps and calmly announce, "I am going to kill you tonight while you sleep." It was crazy. I don't think it would have mattered how he was parented. He was a scary, mean kid who liked to inflict pain on people and animals even at an early age.

But I digress...

It does depend on the family.

I popped my daughter on the butt when she was little. The thumping noise would get her attention.

[Warpy]

32. I hope they could afford to get the kid treatment

There's some hope for sociopaths if they're caught early and taught strategies to get along with the rest of us.

If not, he's probably got a police record and you can bet when he's in jail, they're drugging him.

Yes, I know those kids exist and it's really sad. It's one more reason we need universal health care, to get them into treatment and try to save them.

[Jo March]

83. Oh, they are in complete denial

They tried for years to get pregnant. The boy is an only child. They just don't want to face that he is a little terror. It's so sad.

[Hansel]

24. Uh, I didn't spank my kids. But the eye I gave them...

coupled with one firm "no!" was usually enough.

Saying "no" in a firm tone and then physically moving them away from whatever they were doing or finding another way to distract them is just as effective as spanking and easier on the hand. When you 1st do it, you might have to repeat it a couple of times but eventually, by not giving in, they get the point.

When they were older, just the evil eye was enough.

The people you are talking about just aren't serious enough to demand the results they want. They probably stand across the room screaming at them and then give in when the child doesn't comply. Once you start down that road, spanking won't even help you. Parenting requires getting off of ones ass.













Typo edit

[pipi_k]

65. My mom had an Evil Eye too...more like the one raised eyebrow

I never knew whether to be afraid or laugh.

I'll tell you what though...if there ever was an evil eye that would scare the bejeebers out of me it would be the evil eye of Aunt Esther on "Sanford And Son".

God, I loved Aunt Esther, and her Evil Eye...


:)

[Jo March]

84. But non-spanking parents doesn't equal good parents

I know parents who would never spank their kids, never ever. Yet they scream at them, yell at them, and are lousy parents in general.

That's why I said that those folks annoy me. They hold up their no-spanking rule like it indicates that they are great parents or something. Meanwhile, their kids are not being parented. Of course, they will tell you in a self-righteous tone, "We don't ever spank our child." Well, that's great but your kid is still a brat so you can't be parenting them very well!!!

[demmiblue]

25. Most people that I have seen with disrespectful children are the ones who are abusive themselves...

I have never met a child that was raised in a family that didn't use violence as discipline that acted in the way you describe. The only children that I have seen that are "out of control" come from families that use less savory methods of child-rearing.

Logically, violence begets violence.

[sandnsea]

27. Attitude matters

A little swat on the hand that is consistent and given with genuine instruction and compassion is not going to have the same affect as yelling at a child 24-7. There is more to the picture than the study went into. I don't know why we keep studying the same stuff over and over. When 80% of people report being spanked, but only 5% end up in criminal trouble, there's clearly something else going on besides spankings.

[demmiblue]

39. SWAT... "Thank you mommy for being compassionate and exhibiting the behavior that you expect

me to uphold!"

:crazy:

[sandnsea]

48. on the hand, aren't you so proud of unfairly maligning people

and how agressive is that behavior?

[demmiblue]

55. Not proud... saddened.

[sandnsea]

68. Sad that you exhibited agressive behavior towards me?

Because your mommy spanked you and you've got no other choice??

:shrug:

[demmiblue]

75. No, not in the least.

[Odin2005]

6. Spanking is child abuse.

[HopeHoops]

11. I fully agree. We've never hit the kids but always made it clear what the rules were.

They've become fine young women. They're also all second degree black belts, so if any fucker tries to hit them, he's going to spend a few weeks looking for his nuts.

[redqueen]

20. Yep. Counterproductive... but always the lazy parents' preferred method. (nt)

[rd_kent]

95. Whats the lazy parents preferred method?

Giving in and letting the child do what it wants? Ignoring a misbehaving child in a public place, indifferent to the scene being made and the disruption to those around them? Is that what youre talking about?

[redqueen]

101. Hitting, obviously.

Also, there are more options besides hitting and ignoring. Fucking duh.

[rd_kent]

113. Fucking duh, yourself.

You stated that hitting was the "lazy parents" preferred method. I disagree. I don't think that spanking means that the parents are "lazy". I consider myself to be VERY pro-active in my parenting, and if I choose to spank my child, it does not reflect on whether I am "lazy" or not about my parenting. I just see spanking as a the most effective tool to be used in certain situations.

Whether we agree or not about spanking is a different subject. You stated it is a sign of "lazy" parenting, and it just isn't.

[redqueen]

117. "Fucking duh" was for the false dichotomy. You earned it.

And we'll just have to agree to disagree on lazy parenting, because IMO it very much IS just a piss-poor cop-out used by lazy parents.

[rd_kent]

123. And you earned a gold star.

for broad-brush generalizations and uninformed opinions.

[Luminous Animal]

47. Yep. Even that "swat" to get their attention. (n/t)

[Lagomorph]

51. Oh sure, NOW you tell them......

If you have to hit the ground, fighting, it becomes a habit.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. No. It's Not.

[Odin2005]

59. If you have to resort to spanking to discipline a child you are a bad parent

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe Fields]

111. anyone who believes that there is no difference between

spanking a child and hitting a child cannot reasonably converse on this topic. Your opinion is rendered meaningless.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

142. No. You're Not.

[CBR]

91. I guess my parents were "bad" and "child abusers"

Somehow I never got the feeling of anything but love from my parents. I do not plan on spanking my kids but...

[rd_kent]

97. Holy shit! MY parents were abusers too!!!!

Yet I turned out to be a caring and compassionate person (contrary to what some on DU may say). How did THAT happen if I was abused by bad parents?

[mamaleah]

163. Yeah mine too. Where do we line up to sue?

How did we ever survive. Oh the horror.

[yost69]

176. Well you better start. We can't have you proving this study wrong.

[rd_kent]

94. it sure is.....sometimes.

Sometimes, its not, it is just a spanking.

Screaming at your kids is child abuse....sometimes.

Lots of things are child abuse.....sometimes.

[Joe Fields]

109. No, it isn't.

[yost69]

175. If it was child abuse than why aren't the parents in jail?

[frebrd]

7. Didn't make me agressive......

just more surreptitious.

:)

[Stuckinthebush]

9. From the "no s#!t Sherlock" files

Aggressive behavior breeds aggressive behavior? Who would have thunk it?

[sandnsea]

10. Wow. That made me gag

They test low income kids for agressiveness without factoring in any other possibilities besides spanking. Terribly flawed from the gate. And stupid. Why do these people get money. Argh.

[demmiblue]

22. Good point.

[moc]

44. Not exactly...multivariate analyses adjusted for...

child fussiness at age 1, EHS program participation; maternal race ⁄ ethnicity, age, and education; maternal depression at age 1; family income and structure; and child sex

Might want to actually read the research before dismissing it out of hand.

[Johonny]

45. seems like your wrong

Researchers controlled for family characteristics such as race, ethnicity, mother's age, education, family income and the child's gender.

The problem to me is well if parents that themselves are more aggressive are the ones that end up spanking most often then couldn't aggressiveness just be genetic and the spanking not a factor at all. Correlation doesn't equal causation. Oh course "aggressiveness" is itself sort of an objective term to begin with. Not exactly an easy thing to measure on a scale. So yah these spanking studies all have problems, but they're interesting.

[sandnsea]

67. Seems like I can read

"Berlin and her colleagues looked at data on 2,500 white, Mexican American and black children from low-income families."

The agressiveness could come from the agressive attitude displayed by the parent, more than the spanking. Or, an agressive attitude in conjunctionn with the spanking could make the child even worse. Then there's additional stress, since the study was on low-income families, and things like cold and hunger.

It's a terrible study and completely useless. Which is a shame because it's an important issue.

[moc]

71. Seems like you can't interpret what you read. Does this statement say the analyses weren't adjusted

for the covariates listed in my post above? No. Have you read the study? Apparently not. Want me to send it to you?

You're so full of shit, it's pathetic. You throw around conjecture as if you know what you're talking about, and the more you say, the more clueless you appear.

[TheKentuckian]

12. Duh. (nt)

[redqueen]

15. The latest dispatch from the "Water is Wet" bureau?

It's sad that any parent needs to have this explained to them. It's essentially a no-brainer.

[rd_kent]

146. Its a no-brainer for those with no brains

who blindly follow some rigid ideology that has no room for reality.

Wait, are we talking about spanking or religion here?

[redqueen]

151. You're one of the ones who thinks spanking isn't hitting, right? LOL (nt)

[rd_kent]

156. Am I "the one"?

No, I'm the one who wont be bullied by you or your juvenile attempts to get me to admit that "spanking is hitting", especially in the context that you want it.
I'm the one who is being rational about the subject. Im the one who sees the difference between spanking your kids and hitting your kid.

[One_Life_To_Give]

16. Spanking 3 times a week verses none

Now suppose there might be some middle ground in that canyon.

[sandnsea]

19. Was that the criteria? I missed that.

Good lord if you have to spank a one year old three times a week you've got a whole host of parenting problems beyond that spanking.

[PSzymeczek]

36. My father knocked me out of my high chair

onto a concrete floor when I was 9 months old and we lived in a Government housing project. I am not an aggressive person, never have been.

[moc]

46. Looks like the Yahoo article misquotes the research..

According the Table 1, average number of spankings at age 1 for the full sample was .87 times per week, 1.52 times per week at age 2. At year 1, this ranged from .41x/week among less acculturated Mexican Americans to 1.27x/week among African Americans. Looking at the table, my guess is the health reporter read the line above. I'm sure the researcher is thrilled at having her research misquoted.

Also note that the spanking variable was modeled as a continuum, not a binary variable. So, the results aren't interpreted as the difference between high spanking vs. low spanking, but rather the increase in the outcome along the continuum of spanking frequency.

[One_Life_To_Give]

80. Still seems high to me.

But that may just be how I was raised. I don't recall any of the kids in my neigborhood being subjected to such extensive measures. Although I wouldn't of been aware of what frequency any of them experienced prior to age 5-6.

[kickysnana]

17. 3 year old grandson never spanked spent ALL his time trying to be in charge.

They had tried all the other methods but after he got kicked out of Vacation Bible School and hit his baby sister with a truck this summer his parents decided it was time to get his attention. Two warnings and one swat.

They haven't had to spank in 3 weeks now. He is much happier, they are happier and all you folks at the grocery store, book store, library, restaurant etc are much happier.

[Jo March]

23. Yes, because spanking doesn't equate 100% with "beating"

Too many people equate the two. Sorry, but a swat on the butt after the child has been warned is not the same as beating a child. It's just not.

Your family members understood the difference - a warning, another warning, then a swat. It's not beating the boy but some here think it's the same thing. :eyes:

[redqueen]

28. Why is hitting the only thing that works? Answer: it's not.

But lazy parents like to take the easy way out and just "swat" (HIT) the child to get their point across.

Sheer brilliance, passed down from one generation to the next.

[ampad]

61. It works for the parents

Meaning they are able to release their frustration and anger out on the kid. People can try to dice it anyway they like. The fact of the matter is that children learn quite a bit through modeling. When you spank a child you are causing them some type of pain, whether it be physical or emotional, there is some pain there. Not only is it counterproductive but it cuts into the trust that a child has for the parent.

[redqueen]

88. Yes, it is using pain to train children. We acknowledge it doesn't work on animals...

well it works, but most of us have learned it's far less effective than other methods... yet some insist it's OK to use on children.

Fucking baffling.

[TexasObserver]

110. Indeed. People who train animals or children know this.

As you have noted, this notion that spanking works is promoted by those with poor or no decent parenting skills. They use it because they're ignorant and believe that just because mother or grandma did it, that makes it sound.

The "well I was spanked and I turned out OK" is invariably said by those who never learned not to hit others and think it's a justification for hitting little ones.

[redqueen]

119. I don't know why people say "I turned out OK"... it is completely meaningless.

How about we apply it to other bad behaviors?

I was ripped off but I turned out OK... so it must be fine!

I was lied to but I turned out OK... so it's fine!

It just makes absolutely no sense at all...

[TexasObserver]

128. And more importantly, they're usually WRONG about that.

They DIDN'T turn out OK. Anyone who doesn't understand that ANIMALS, not just small humans, are not well trained with fear and pain is someone who doesn't understand the training of kids.

Praise and encouragement are the best tools for kids. Rewards also work, for kids and animals.

I've trained dozens of horses from green to broke. You do it with patience and baby steps, not this movie fantasy of getting on the stallion and breaking his will. That's such bullshit.

Kids are little animals. Smart animals, but animals. They will naturally love their caregivers unless their caregivers give them a reason NOT to love the caregivers. Animals are the same way. You can't win them over by hitting them. If you're hitting an animal, you're losing the battle. They want to be loved, accepted, and cared for.

[rd_kent]

149. Not all pain is counterproductive

Its why we can feel pain, to learn from. Have you never burned yourself on something hot? You learned not to do it again. The same could be said for spanking.
Sure, there is opportunity for it to be abused, but tht is not what were talking about, is it? Were talking about spanking as a concept, not as abuse.

[redqueen]

152. And spanking 'as a concept' is recognized to be counterproductive when used on animals...

why the everloving fuck would anyone think it's OK to hit kids?

[rd_kent]

154. Are you equating kids to animals?

I'm not, so lets continue to compare apples to apple, okay. And we have beaten to death the "Spanking is not hitting" argument.

[redqueen]

155. Yes, I am. The average dog has an intellect on par with most 2 year olds.

Even if they weren't about the same, intellect wise...

please tell me why hitting an animal would be bad, but hitting a child is useful and good.

Thanks.

[rd_kent]

157. That would be a good argument if a childs intellect stayed at 2 years old.

And in the animal world, parents use the equivalent of spanking and yelling to discipline their young to teach a lesson.

[redqueen]

158. So it's bad for a dog, but good for kids. OK!

:crazy:

[rd_kent]

159. No, not at all.

Human parents spanking their kids is the same as a mother dog nipping a pup.

[One_Life_To_Give]

81. It's a tool

It's a tool, nothing more.

We can hope that every parent will have a range of tools in their bag. And the wisdom to use the appropriate one at the right time. There are probably many who over rely on one technique. That doesn't mean it doesn't have legitimate uses.

[redqueen]

86. IMO hitting children is not a tool with legitimate uses. It's a lazy cop out. (nt)

[One_Life_To_Give]

89. To quote Sherriff Justice, it's "An attention getter"

All kidding aside there is a broad range of possible choices. Some kids may never need the upper levels of possible consequences. Others will only need the threat of possible consequences. And in some cases either immediacy of danger or level action may require the use of tools from the far end of the spectrum. And if you can count on one hand the number of times actions from the extreme have been required in a childs entire life, then it seems within reason to me.

[redqueen]

102. Like I said... most acknowledge it's counterproductive to do it to *animals*...

yet some still insist it's just fine and dandy to do to kids.

FAR from reasonable to me. Very far.

[Joe Fields]

118. spanking is spanking. hitting is hitting. don't confuse the two, because,

they are not one and the same. You may be entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

[redqueen]

120. How is spanking not hitting?

This ought to be good.

[Jo March]

82. I didn't say that it's the only thing that works

Apparently in that one particular case, it did.

[redqueen]

87. Yes, violence often works in bending others to your will. That doesn't excuse it. (nt)

[rd_kent]

148. No one but you is supporting the strawman that spanking is the opnly answer.

Its very easy to set yourself up for a soundbite answer like "lazy parents" but the only thing lazy here is your logic.

[mizz zen]

135. If you are obnoxious to me and won't stop, shall I "swat" YOUR butt?

You could call the police and I would get charged with battery, plain and simple. Whether or not it hurt you, adults are not allowed to hit one another. But kids? Hey, they wouldn't listen! Oh, and they're smaller than us, so...:eyes:

Let's be honest here: parents who give a warning, another warning and then swat do so out of anger. Their so-called authority was ignored or challenged. But they are usually ineffective in how they initially deal with the situation and so the whole thing sours.

[Kaylee]

122. My two kids have each been spanked once in their lives...

that's all it took. They know mommy and daddy mean business and don't push the limits to that point. They look aghast at what they see other kids get away with in public or how some kids talk to their parents.

[4lbs]

26. My father spanked me occasionally and reserved it for when I committed egregious wrongs.

For example, when I would run around and knock stuff over or accidentally spill a glass of milk. That DID NOT get a spanking, but a stern "Hey! knock it off!" or "Son... watch where you are reaching!"

However, several times I hurt another kid in an argument or through carelessness, or caused property damage. That's when my father brought out the belt.

[redqueen]

29. Reliable as the sun coming up... the anecdotal "worked on me!" posts. (nt)

[4lbs]

31. There's a huge difference between spanking a kid for everything the child does and reserving it for

the really bad stuff.

[redqueen]

35. Sure there is.

But hitting is still hitting.... and the plural of anecdote is still not data.

[seabeyond]

37. my parents used "spanking" lol with a belt. i wasnt traumatized. wasnt beating

wasnt cause they were angry with me. and i knew they loved me. they were connected parents, always on our side, i trust them like no one.... and they spanked.

but again, i say, i dont think it works (brothers) and i dont think it is effective aprenting and lasting parenting.

my mom watched me with my boys and she said (before dying) that she wished she had parented like i did.

i told her,

her time, age and experience, she did the best she could and did a fine job at that. no guilt

[Luminous Animal]

53. My mom apologized to me, also.

Specifically about the spanking. She saw how my sister and I were raising our kids and felt guilty for spanking us. I didn't like to be spanked, I don't like the fact that I was spanked. It is a lazy way to discipline and it's child abuse.

[TexasObserver]

114. "It is a lazy way to discipline and it's child abuse."

It's a lot harder to instill real discipline than to cop out and whack a kid. That's for the weak or incompetent parent.

[seabeyond]

30. of course it doesnt. whack. i told you... whack, whack, to quit hitting... whack

you sister... whack whack.

also has short term discipline out of fear. once fear gone behavior isnt corrected

[HopeHoops]

34. Where do you think this is, Skull and Bones?

"Thank you sir may I have another?"

[TxRider]

33. What about late spankings?

[ecstatic]

38. I was spanked. Was actually a very nice toddler

:shrug: Not defending spankings. Just saying I'm sure there are aggressive toddlers who are spanked and some who aren't.

[YOY]

40. This is why I firmly challenge my toddler to a dance off when she misbehaves.

The embarassment of being served keeps that little snot in line.

[betharina]

50. literally, you just made me lol. nt

[YOY]

62. I'm actually doing a little Fosse with her.

and she knows Jazz hands...

[quaker bill]

41. If the best

I have to offer my children is physical violence, then I have truly failed, abysmally.

I never spanked my children. One has brought me a grandchild and is about to be awarded his PhD in materials science and the other won scholarships and national academic recognition and is on her way to a bachelors degree.

Physical violence is never required to raise children well. In any battle of wits, the first to strike out physically has always lost, always. Whether admitted or not, this is always true. Why one would allow one's children to gain the upper hand in this manner is simply unfathomable.

[provis99]

42. baloney article.

there must be millions of kids out there who were beaten savagely by their parents, and turned out ok. Beatings (not spankings, beatings) were the standard for my grandparents, and all their ten kids turned out ok. It sounds like beating your kids pretty severely was commonplace 50-100 years ago, and plenty of those kids turned out just fine.

[moc]

43. DU once again demonstrates its commitment to science.

Hate to tell you folks, but Child Development (the journal where this was published) is considered a "flagship" journal for developmental researchers. Only the best quality research on child development gets published in CD. This is the kind of journal that when you get published there, friends you haven't heard from in ages email or call to congratulate you.

I haven't read the paper in depth but will add it to my queue. However, it's just more empirical evidence that physical punishment is associated with negative outcomes for young children. The science is pretty strong.

I'm sorry if that doesn't concur with your worldview on how best to discipline kids. However, I think it's worth pointing out that providing anecdotes such as "Hey, I was spanked and I'm fine!" is not an appropriate counterpoint to scientific study.

[sandnsea]

52. This is horrible "science" - awful, terrible, disgusting "science"

There is no possible way to come to a conclusion about anything when you only compare one income group and one parenting technique. This is just absurd. I guarantee you a shitty parent that completely ignores a child is going to have an agressive two year old too. That's the problem with this "science" and the problem with most child behavioral studies. They start with preconceived ideas and just keep churning out the same conclusion because the "study" doesn't consider any other possibilities.

[moc]

54. Thanks for proving my point regarding your lack of scientific literacy.

Nothing in your post is remotely consistent with the scientific literature in this area. I could give you reams and reams of citations on a wide range of samples and using a wide range of methods that show the same thing as this study. However, it would be a waste of my time because you've clearly decided you know what "truth" is. Funny how we disparage right-wingers who do the same thing, e.g., decide they know the "truth" despite the empirical evidence to the contrary.

My guess is you spanked your kid(s) and don't want to hear that perhaps it wasn't the best parenting choice.

[sandnsea]

66. My guess is you guess about a lot of shit

and only bother to find a study when called on your guessing games.

If you read my posts you'd know I already said I think that any parent who is spanking a one year old has a whole host of parenting issues beyond the spanking.

There are many studies that show a variety of things, one being that inconsistency creates the angriest child of all.

[moc]

72. I'll make you an offer.

PM me an email address. I don't care if it's yours or someone else's you have access to. I have a subscription to Child Development. I'll email you the pdf of the study itself. You read it, and then you tell me exactly what problems you have with the methods, results, or interpretation of findings. Here's the catch, though. You can't refer to the study as "horrible science" or "awful, terrible or disgusting science" unless you can point out specific methodological limitations of what these researchers did. In other words, stop throwing around epithets and put your money where your mouth is. I'm tired of your pathetic bullshit.

[sandnsea]

78. Here's the study

http://www.srcd.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=627

And as I already said, it is a study of low-income mothers. You cannot make any conclusion about parenting if you don't factor in other issues facing low income children vs children with their basic needs consistently met. That is sociology 101.

The very premise of this study disgusts me. There are any number of reasons a toddler is agressive and any study that doesn't factor in as many as possible is useless. Horrible, awful, terrible, disgusting. People with brains ought to know better but they're more interested in their ideologies than actually helping any live human being.

And again, I don't think spanking is necessary and is terrible with a one year old. But spanking is not the key problem with adult violence and anybody ought to be able to open their eyes and look around the planet and figure that out.

Oh, and I find it comical that you were agressive towards me as was the poster above. You that know it all about human behavior and agression, can't find a better way to communicate than being a jackass. And will never recognize or acknowlege that that is ABUSIVE behavior.

[rd_kent]

150. Lets hope it reamins just that...

a parenting choice.

[Jo March]

85. I agree because there is no way that poverty and stress contribute

Nope. It's just the spanking. :eyes:

[TexasObserver]

143. Well said.

"Hey, I was spanked and I'm fine!" is often wrong. We have only the poster's testimony to support it, and some indication (their acceptance of violence against children) that they're not "fine."

[yodermon]

49. spanking threads = DU 3rd rail

popcorn is yummy this evening. :popcorn:

[Stuckinthebush]

105. Yup

People love spanking and will defend it till death! You will have to pry my paddle from my cold, dead hands!

:hide:

[LeftyMom]

57. Maybe assholes just raise asshole children?

Only a world class asshole would hit a child.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

127. I'm sure. The world is full of assholes. But the fact remains: only an asshole would hit a child.

[rd_kent]

132. I would agree that only an asshole would hit a child.

but not that only an asshole would spank a child.

[LeftyMom]

133. Spanking is hitting.

[rd_kent]

134. And that is your opinion

and there lies the rub. Opinion.

[LeftyMom]

136. If there's a form of spanking that involves something other than hitting, I've never seen it.

You can argue that it's somehow justified hitting or different hitting or that the circumstances of the hitting makes it special and justifiable, but it's definitely hitting, that's observable reality.

[rd_kent]

139. I am sure that I could observe you at some point putting your hands on another person

and you would not consider it "hitting". Sure, its all semantics, but thats the reason we have different meanings for different words.

Here is the difference:

spank
1  /spæŋk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA ,
Use spank in a Sentence
See web results for spank
See images of spank
–verb (used with object)
1. to strike (a person, usually a child) with the open hand, a slipper, etc., esp. on the buttocks, as in punishment.
–noun
2. a blow given in spanking; a smart or resounding slap.


hit
  /hɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA verb, hit, hit⋅ting, noun
Use hit in a Sentence
See web results for hit
See images of hit
–verb (used with object)
1. to deal a blow or stroke to: Hit the nail with the hammer.
2. to come against with an impact or collision, as a missile, a flying fragment, a falling body, or the like: The car hit the tree.
3. to reach with a missile, a weapon, a blow, or the like, as one throwing, shooting, or striking: Did the bullet hit him?
4. to succeed in striking: With his final shot he hit the mark.
5. Baseball.
a. to make (a base hit): He hit a single and a home run.
b. bat 1 (def. 14).
6. to drive or propel by a stroke: to hit a ball onto the green.
7. to have a marked effect or influence on; affect severely: We were all hit by the change in management.
8. to assail effectively and sharply (often fol. by out): The speech hits out at warmongering.
9. to request or demand of: He hit me for a loan.
10. to reach or attain (a specified level or amount): Prices are expected to hit a new low. The new train can hit 100 mph.
11. to be published in or released to; appear in: When will this report hit the papers? What will happen when the story hits the front page?
12. to land on or arrive in: The troops hit the beach at 0800. When does Harry hit town?
13. to give (someone) another playing card, drink, portion, etc.: If the dealer hits me with an ace, I'll win the hand. Bartender, hit me again.
14. to come or light upon; meet with; find: to hit the right road.
15. to agree with; suit exactly: I'm sure this purple shirt will hit Alfred's fancy.
16. to solve or guess correctly; come upon the right answer or solution: You've hit it!
17. to succeed in representing or producing exactly: to hit a likeness in a portrait.
18. Informal. to begin to travel on: Let's hit the road. What time shall we hit the trail?
–verb (used without object)
19. to strike with a missile, a weapon, or the like; deal a blow or blows: The armies hit at dawn.
20. to come into collision (often fol. by against, on, or upon): The door hit against the wall.
21. Slang. to kill; murder.
22. (of an internal-combustion engine) to ignite a mixture of air and fuel as intended: This jalopy is hitting on all cylinders.
23. to come or light (usually fol. by upon or on): to hit on a new way.
–noun
24. an impact or collision, as of one thing against another.
25. a stroke that reaches an object; blow.
26. a stroke of satire, censure, etc.: a hit at complacency.
27. Baseball. base hit.
28. Backgammon.
a. a game won by a player after the opponent has thrown off one or more men from the board.
b. any winning game.
29. a successful stroke, performance, or production; success: The play is a hit.
30. Slang. a dose of a narcotic drug.
31. Computers.
a. (in information retrieval) an instance of successfully locating an item of data in the memory bank of a computer.
b. an instance of accessing a Web site.
32. Slang. a killing, murder, or assassination, esp. one carried out by criminal prearrangements.
—Verb phrases
33. hit off,
a. to represent or describe precisely or aptly: In his new book he hits off the American temperament with amazing insight.
b. to imitate, esp. in order to satirize.
34. hit on, Slang. to make persistent sexual advances to: guys who hit on girls at social events.
35. hit out,
a. to deal a blow aimlessly: a child hitting out in anger and frustration.
b. to make a violent verbal attack: Critics hit out at the administration's new energy policy.
36. hit up, Slang.
a. to ask to borrow money from: He hit me up for ten bucks.
b. to inject a narcotic drug into a vein.
—Idioms
37. hit it off, Informal. to be congenial or compatible; get along; agree: We hit it off immediately with the new neighbors. She and her brother had never really hit it off.
38. hit or miss, without concern for correctness or detail; haphazardly: The paint job had been done hit or miss.
39. hit the books, Slang. to study hard; cram.
40. hit the bottle, Slang. bottle (def. 4).
41. hit the high spots,
a. to go out on the town; go nightclubbing: We'll hit the high spots when you come to town.
b. to do something in a quick or casual manner, paying attention to only the most important or obvious facets or items: When I clean the house I hit the high spots and that's about all. This course will hit the high spots of ancient history.


Now why, do you suppose, spank only has two definitions, while hit has over 30? Because they mean different things.

[LeftyMom]

140. All spanking is hitting. Not all hitting is spanking.

The primary definition of spanking is consistent with, though more detailed than, the primary definition of hitting.

[rd_kent]

141. But its different

Thats why it is its own word. Its all semantics, I think we agree on that. Its the intent where we disagree.
By your logic, A always equals B, but B does not always equal A. That defies logic.

I think you and I have beaten this horse enough. Thanks for the discussion, we will have to agree to disagree.

[LeftyMom]

170. Not at all. For example: All horses are mammals, but not all mammals are horses.

Here, I made you a diagram to illustrate what I mean.

[mamaleah]

165. Then I guess my mother is an asshole. I will not say what I think of you. nt

[LeftyMom]

168. If she hits children? Certainly.

[mamaleah]

174. Well, Miss Angel, she is anything but an asshole.

You are disgusting and make me ill.

Have a pleasant life.

[DefenseLawyer]

58. I'm just not sure there is a connection.

We have never spanked our kids and they are extremely well behaved. (lucky for us. knock on wood) I was spanked as a child and would also have been described well behaved. On the other hand I know plenty of parents who "never spank" who have kids that are holy terrors and just as many who spank their little criminals to no avail either. This is just anecdotal, obviously. I'm no expert by any means. It just my own observation that it might be something else that is the determining factor in behavior.

[sandnsea]

69. Exactly

Clearly if it was as simple as spanking, we'd all be in jail as proof of the horror of it. Human beings are just not that simple. These professionals do a huge disservice to children by pretending that there actually is a book to raise kids by. There isn't or every child in a group home would be an instant angel and they're absolutely not.

[Tim01]

60. Uh,huh. And how many nice, obedient kids get spanked? nt

[RobinA]

63. At least two

My sister and me. I don't have kids, but I can't even imagine spanking a child. My sister had kids and never spanked. The children (now adults) were well-behaved, but not too well-behaved. They weren't "obedient" like we were. Thank god.

[TexasObserver]

64. Parenting is a full time job. You have to suit up and show up every day.

Kids are relentless opponents, always pressing for the chance to push the envelope and see which direction and how far it will go. Parenting is about setting examples, setting limits, and understanding when to enforce and when to change those limits.

Each child is their own person, each one unique and requiring their own set of standards applicable to them. One kid requires only "the look," while another may require suspension of some right for some period of time. They're animals, and like all somewhat evolved mammals, each one has a personality all theirs. As a parent, we have to understand and respect that little person. Everything they do says "I'm here, dammit, and I'm not YOU, and I'm ME!!"

Hit 'em? Hell no! I love 'em, and that's the thing I most want my kids to feel. They're all in their 20s now, and they've been quality adults on auto pilot. They learned being reasonable, not using violence, and not yelling in arguments under my roof, where I would not accept those behaviors by anyone. No door slamming, no throwing things, no hitting things, either. Those are actions intended to imply violence is an option, and equally unacceptable.

[moc]

73. You sound like a great dad.

[TexasObserver]

76. T. Berry Brazelton

When we first decided to have kids 30 years ago, I started reading about pre natal health and early childhood. I quickly found Dr. Berry Brazelton, and fell in love with his calm, reasoned approach to all aspects of parenting. He was frequently on TV shows in those days, and I could see how well his genteel manner with kids worked.

[rapturedbyrobots]

70. russell peters' 2 cents

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI

[proteus_lives]

74. Spanking is not abuse.

Anyone who calls it abuse has never seen actual abuse.

I was spanked and I'm not a violent person. My sister spanks and my nieces and nephew are ok. Hell, I've spanked my nephew when he was three and ran out into the street.

It's not a response for every situation. But it helps make the connection for toddlers who don't know why yet it's bad to run out into the street or stick a fork into the socket.

[ampad]

125. I think it is abuse

As a child I suffered many forms of abuse. An adult may perceive a smack on a hand as minor but a child may perceive it as something far worse. Children and adults do not think and perceive certain actions the same way. Which is why children need adult supervision. Also I challenge the notion that smacking a toddler helps them connect and understand their bad behavior. If a child runs out into a street maybe the parent should take a moment and not allow their fear and anger take over the situation. Instead sit the child down and explain to them what can happen if they run out in the street. I think it is harder to explain the implications of the child's actions if they are crying or pissed because they just got hit. They are trying to process what just happen. They may not even hear or comprehend the must needed lesson of not running out in the streets.

IMO, spanking, smacking, heating, whatever folks want to call it is an easy way out for a parent. It allows for immediate gratification for the parent. It takes more work to sit a child down and explain to them the error of their ways. Time outs and other forms of behavioral modification take time and patience. However, IMO, those other forms of behavioral modification are worth it in the long run. When there is a risk, that you are fostering aggressive behavior in the child, then why take that risk. In the long run society as a whole suffers. Aggressive children can make for aggressive adults. Aggressive adults who often times take their aggression out on their own children and spouses. It may not come in the form of physical abuse, it may come as verbal abuse. IMO, it is just not worth it. I think it is time that we evolve from this barbaric behavior. Quite a few European countries ban the practice altogether. IMO, the risk do not outweigh the cons.

[TexasObserver]

77. Children learn violence from spanking.

They learn that the biggest person can use their size to inflict pain and therefore compliance.

Sometimes parents who spank are shocked when their pre schooler spanks a sibling or spanks a family pet. They copy their parents' behaviors in all things.

[rd_kent]

99. No, they learn violence from observing the world we live in.

[TexasObserver]

103. They learn it at home.

A child learns violence by experiencing violence and by seeing it around them. They see it first at home, because that's where they live. Their foundation is set before they ever enter school.

Most child care experts agree that children learn violence in the home environment.

[rd_kent]

106. Sure, they learn it at home.

The babysitter (I mean the TV) shows it all the time. My point was, that I think the violence you are referring to, is seen and learned from the violent world we live in. There is no getting around the fact that this IS a very violent place.

[redqueen]

112. Do you think seeing their own parents...

the two people whom that child is supposed to be able to trust and rely on more than anyone else in the world... do you think seeing those two individuals perpetuating it, and participating it... not just against others but against the child itself... is a good thing?

[rd_kent]

121. I assume we are still talking about spanking, right?

If so, then its clear you and I do not see spanking in the same light. I do not see it as violent or as abuse, you do. You are not going to change my mind, nor I yours.

[TexasObserver]

126. Yes, they learn it at home.

There is consensus among child care experts (except rightwing fundies) that hitting kids is stupid and harmful.

It's not watching TV. It's seeing dad whip off his belt and start hitting people. It's mom throwing things in anger or hitting people with her broom. It's violence that is perpetrated by the adults against the children, then the children against each other.

Your approach is faulty because it assumes that spanking works, when it doesn't, and it assumes that there's either total capitulation to the child by the parent, or spanking, with no in between.

[ampad]

129. I wonder if the people saying

that spanking cannot foster aggressive behavior take credit for the positive behavior their child models from them. Such as honesty, good work ethic and respect.

[rd_kent]

131. But what you have described is NOT spanking.

It's seeing dad whip off his belt and start hitting people. It's mom throwing things in anger or hitting people with her broom.

If this is what you equate to spanking, then I agree with you.

On the other hand, what most rational people consider to be spanking (a swat on the behind, as an example) is NOT on par with what you describe above.

[TexasObserver]

137. It may not be spanking according to the definition you invented.

Even if it's spanking that fits your definition, it's HITTING. You can try to convince yourself that hitting kids is smart and effective, but it's not.

[rd_kent]

145. I'm willing to give a litte on the semantics if you are.

I will concede that spanking is hitting as long as you concede that not all hitting is abusive.

[TicketyBoo]

79. One tends to learn parenting skills from one's parents.

That said, you can change, and our family is proof of that. Can you stand one more personal story? Hope so.

My husband and I, raised hundreds of miles apart, were spanked. My parents used their hands on my behind. My husband's father used his two-inch belt or a switch from a branch he made the kids go and find themselves. He'd spank them with it, and if it wasn't big enough and broke, he'd make them go find a bigger one for a second go-round.

After our child was born, we started spanking at about age three. I could see that my husband was approaching it out of anger, not strictly discipline. One of the the local welfare agencies was offering a parenting course called 1-2-3 Magic. At my urging, my husband signed up for the course. When I saw how well it worked, I stopped spanking, too. A lovely way to live.

[kctim]

90. Armchair parents

are just as bad as armchair generals: completely useless.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

92. I've always been confused about what spanking is supposed to teach children

We try to teach our kids that physical violence/aggression is wrong but in order to teach them that lesson, we use physical violence/aggression on them ourselves. :shrug: I doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't NOT spanking children and finding another punishment (i.e. time out in the corner, taking away games or toys) teach that lesson much better? I just.don't.get.it.

[laureloak]

93. What if your boss hit you every time you did something wrong?

[rd_kent]

100. Strawman alert!

Nice try, but...FAIL.

[Stuckinthebush]

107. How is that a fail?

Authority figure hits you when you do something wrong.

Pretty decent analogy actually.

[rd_kent]

116. no, because the parent-child relationship is NOT analogous with the employer-employee relationship.

[Stuckinthebush]

124. Many leadership experts would disagree

The workplace is a "family"

The boss or authority figure is a "parent"

The authority figure can be a caring, absent, or authoritative "parent"

If I rely on the authority figure for my livelihood, then she/he has ultimate power over my life. Same with children.

I didn't make the analogy, but the poster does have a point.

[rd_kent]

130. I guess when most of us consider our bosses to be our parents,

then he can spank me for misbehaving.

[Echo In Light]

104. Neither my sister or I were spanked. My wife and I have never spanked our daughter.

All it teaches them is that problems are resolved through violence.

[LondonReign2]

108. Great news for James Dobson

..since he wants an army of aggresive religious zealots.

[Deja Q]

115. I'm living proof that is an outright lie.

(not you, the yahoo "news" article.)

[mizz zen]

138. Why--because you didn't become aggressive. I don't recall the research finding

that 100% of children who were physically punished became violent themselves. And of girls who get molested, not all become strippers and/or hookers, yet a sizable amount do. Which means that we don't negate the importance of girls not getting molested because we can cite examples of girls who grow up relatively "normal," whatever that is.

I have had this debate before, regarding this particular subject, and I have found that the children of physical abuse usually make a point of saying that they were not affected by the abuse. And yet there are different ways to deal with the scars: getting involved in unhealthy relationships, substance abuse, overeating, undereating, OCD, workaholic tendencies, etc.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

147. and thus continueth the shitstorm... n/t

[LanternWaste]

153. Violence begets violence...

Violence begets violence... hence, without an end to the cycle, the sins of the father do indeed become the sins of the sons.

[Jennicut]

160. I never spanked my kids, they are 4 and 5 now and doing quite well.

I don't even really use time out...my daughter had a time out at school and boy was she shook up about it. I thinks its most useful when not used much at all.
Most times I talk to my girls about what they did wrong (after tantrums and tears, sometimes) and usually get an "I'm sorry" out of them. Spanking does nothing to teach your children about their behavior except to increase aggression when fustrated.

[rd_kent]

161. Must be nice to have perfect kids.

And Im glad you are the expert on spanking and what it does or doesnt teach kids. Thanks for that.

[Jennicut]

162. My kids are far from perfect, believe me. But spanking them when they don't behave?

Doesn't teach them much in my opinion. Are kids really understanding that the spanking is relating to the behavior they did or that Mommy or Daddy is just mad at them?
And I have a degree in psychology and worked with troubled kids who were abused (much worse then spanking, obviously). I could never lay a hand on any kid after what I saw those kids go through.

[rd_kent]

167. But were not talking about abuse

we are talking about spanking. And you should know, since you "have a degree in psychology", that what works for one, doesnt always work for another.

[Jennicut]

169. True. But I personally cannot do it. People all have to make the choices

they have to make to raise their kids how they see best. For me, it goes over a line I can't cross.

[rd_kent]

171. Thank you for being honest. I appreciate that.

The fact that you recognize that it is a choice in parenting, not across-the-board abuse is heartening.

[Dappleganger]

164. Love and limits.

That's what it takes to do it right. Some are easier than others (we have four, ages 17, 16, 13 and 11). Never spanked but gave lots of consequences that don't exasperate the child. My experience is that if you let them beat you when they are 2 and 3 you will LOSE later on. It can be a battle of the wills so learn their currency quickly. We have one who is very strong-willed, she is being homeschooled now and her currency is making choices and one-on-one time. We allow a lot of leeway with their personal choices as long as they keep up the grades, do their fair share around the house and have a decent attitude. They never had a lot of expensive toys or even that many at all and we severely limited their 'screen' time (tv and computer). But there is lots of love here. All their friends come to our house because of it, it is Grand Central but I am always home and interact with them regularly. Nobody here ever went to day care and we had no relatives to take care of them, we did it on our own. Our home is small and the cars are 10 years old or more but it's all good. :)

[JVS]

166. Aggressive kids strive harder!

;-)

[BlooInBloo]

172. Not a big fan of spanking, but doing it before than can understand wtf they did wrong...

seems asinine to me.

[AngryAmish]

173. Thier moms, on the other hand, love it.