I support the war in Afghanistan

[Becky72]

There are some who wish we withdrew from Afghanistan. In several polls, the number of people who oppose the war there is over 50%. But count me as a minority on this one.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, and the war there was based on that lie and the WMD lie, among others. That's why I opposed it. But the Taliban provided shelter and training grounds to Osama Bin Laden, and it is my opinion that we have to keep them from regrouping.

Yes, casualties are mounting; but the justification of a war does not depend on the casualty count.
In Iraq, the war was bad not because soldiers were dying, but because they were dying in vain.
Besides, the recent setbacks can be addressed by changing the strategy, rather than withdrawing.

More troops there would likely do it, and Gates signaled today that he's opened to more troops: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/us/politics/04military.html?hp

Obama ran with the promise to continue the war in Afghanistan and stopping the war in Iraq; and we knew this and we didn't complain, and we voted for him, and we liked his reasoning.

[tazkcmo]

1. Then enlist. n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

2. +1!

[Starry Messenger]

7. +2

[Mari333]

17. +100!

[timeforpeace]

31. +1000. And I'd love to see what you wrote about it before Jan 20.

[Individualist]

32. ++

End the war now!

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. And take my oldest son's place! Go for it!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

42. [phone]

[Dr Fate]

46. No no no! Enlisting is only for "those other people."

n/t

[gatorboy]

Pffft. Becky's not going to enlist.

She has too much fun posting flamebait here.

[armyowalgreens]

3. "the justification of a war does not depend on the casualty count."

Actually that plays a significant role in justification.

[roody]

4. Of course we support it. The pipeline is not yet completed!

[Engineer4Obama]

5. I can be persuaded either way

and I'm not ashamed of that opinion.

On the one hand there's the you break it you buy it argument, we were already there when Obama took office, we poorly mismanaged the Afghan conflict because of Iraq. We have a history in this country of coming in and providing it plenty of attention when it comes to combat but then allowing regressive conservative assholes like the Taliban and the warlords take over when combat is over. If we were to suddenly withdraw who knows what would happen to the region. Even more concerning is the destabilization of Pakistan Afghanistan's next door neighbor. If we leave Afghanistan whats to stop the Pakistan Taliban from reentering the country and using it as a base to attempt to mount an assault on the still weak Pakistani government. This is a larger concern because of Pakistan's nuclear program.

On the other hand I'm of the opinion that our original reason for being there, Osama bin Laden, is most likely dead of natural causes. And the overseas conflicts weaken our nation security and stretch our Military thin. How many more lives do we need to spend to attempt to stabilize this country? Not to mention our country is war sick and could really use a time of peace where they aren't told by their leaders to live in constant fear of tomorrow and start looking forward to it again.

[tazkcmo]

10. You are entitled to your opinion

And I served in the Army and defended your right to communicate your opinion. So, go to the OP's house, pick "her" up and you two can enlist together.

[Engineer4Obama]

11. So the fact that I'm unsure about it means

I have to enlist or shut up?

[tazkcmo]

14. Never said to shut up.

Just to put your money where your mouth is. I personally have no doubts about my position. More people die in this country due to a lack of health care than have from ALL terrorist activities. Why are we not bombing UHC, Aetna, BC/BS? It's way too easy to support a war when there is no risk to ones self.

[Johonny]

16. The real question is how interested is the world in this project

I really have no doubt the world would be better off if we stabilized Afghanistan. If you look at the region China, Pakistan, Iran, India and Russia all directly benefit. The rest of the western world clearly indirectly benefits. I think the people of Afghanistan deserve a stabilized country as well. But the question is if the world is really trying to stabilize the region or not. I think having NATO there is a help to justifying involvement, but I think a more powerful UN movement would help more. Also the countries supplying the massive amount of weapons and money to the region have to stop doing that. With so much to gain, I really don't see the massive push from the other world super powers to help out. I think Bush had a golden chance to do this post 9/11 when even Iran was willing to help us, but that time is long gone. Without a truly international effort I don't see this working long term and I'm not sold that we're truly seeing international effort.

[tjwash]

6. The 9-11 hijackers were from Saudi, not Afghanistan.

But...thanks for playing.

[Creena]

8. I could hug you.

:hug: There, that's better.

The history and current events of Saudi Arabia is a passion of mine.

We've been going after the wrong people for a long, long time. But, the cynic in me believes it will never change.

[gaspee]

22. I don't think

This inconvenient fact can be pointed out often or loudly enough.

[Vidar]

26. Absolutely right!

[Liberation Angel]

29. Actually, weren't the 9-11 hijackers from Like Tampa or Miami???

Weren't they being trained at CIA facilities to fly planes in sunny Florida?

and spending googobs of money given to them by the CIA via the ISI in Pakistan and some Saudi buddies of Bush?

I know it is claimed they were Saudis but was there any dna found anyway (aside from the passports which were found on the street outside the towers after the planes exploded on impact?

And how in the hell did they learn how to fly remote controlled missiles into our landmarks using only exacto knives? Seriously - These guys were Arab MaGrubers. Hired by the corporation to take a deadly prat fall for global dominion of Right wing false-christian fascists and nazi weapons/energy/media corporations.

Or am I wrong?

[Junkdrawer]

71. Subversive facts like those undermine public confidence in the official 9/11 narrative...

And the only sane way to respond is:

"Troother! Take off your tinfoil hat!"

Now, aren't you ashamed of yourself?

[SammyWinstonJack]

36. Thank You!

[flvegan]

9. I support the war on Christmas.

Festivus for the rest of us!

[ZombieHorde]

38. So do pigs.

(because of the popularity of ham dishes on xmas)

[Creena]

39. I support the War on Pigs Who Support the War on Christmas.

Because Honeybaked Ham is delicious. (Sorry, I'm just bored and sick.)

[ZombieHorde]

44. I have a hard time enjoying meat unless the animal I got the meat from

is still alive and watching me eat it.

[Sebastian Doyle]

65. War......Pigs.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbxfe7DMxVo

[Sebastian Doyle]

64. Pigs totally support Hanukkah though

In fact, they encourage as many people as possible to celebrate it. (because of the unpopularity of ham dishes during Hanukkah. Or any other Jewish holiday.)

[PM Martin]

12. The core of these terror groups reside in and are funded by

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
Getting off of oil could go along way to dealing with these thugs.

[Oregone]

13. Ok. So....what's the objective?

And if there is one...is it obtainable?

If it is, at what costs? (remember, Russia had 150K troops there and no luck)

[madeline_con]

58. Protect that huge pipeline. Yes, it's obtainable. Cost will be very high, higher if we lose.

[DutchLiberal]

15. So when will the war be over? What is our goal? When have we 'won'?

We can't kill all of the Taliban. For every fighter we shoot down, they recruit a new one. So when exactly is the war over? Or does it have to go on forever, like Orwell predicted?

We have no control over any area in the country. The president (a former colleague of Bush from one of his failed oil companies) is nothing more than the major of Kabul. He has no authority outside the capital. And even the capital is under siege from the Taliban, with rockets hitting even near the US embassy. The Dutch are down in the south in the county of Helmand and it's often too dangerous to even leave their base.

The election was a farce. Independent organizations are reporting widespread fraud. Districts in which nobody voted out of fear for the Taliban are returning boxes full of ballots. How can you hold elections in a country were 80% of the people is illiterate and doesn't have access to information? Have you seen images from the country? These people live in the Middle Ages. They listen to what the eldest man in their tribe is telling them to do. How can we bring democracy to such a country?

When has the US, or any Western country, ever won a guerrilla war? Didn't we learn from Vietnam? And didn't we learn from the Soviets that we can't win Afghanistan? If even the Red Army couldn't bring these people down to their knees in 10 years, what makes you think we can?

In another 8 years, we will still not have won in Afghanistan. The Taliban will still be there. Only hundreds, maybe thousands of American soldiers will be dead, and hundreds of thousands civilians will be dead. You think that's an acceptable price to pay? You enlist today.

[kenny blankenship]

18. What are you doing here then?

They need cannon fodder over there, get the fucking lead out and enlist.

[rug]

19. I support H1N1.

[Democracyinkind]

20. Why not. Increasing troops really worked for Alexander, the Soviets and the rest of the lot.

come to think of it, it's the perfect place to bury imperial hubris.

BTW Those camps have more to do with SA, USA and PAK than they had with Afghanistan.

"winning the war in Afghanistan" ... the hubris ....

[gaspee]

21. Read this

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/afghanistan-failings-sound-echoes-of-russias-forgotten-war-20090901-f6vd.html?skin=text-only

I have never supported the war in Afghanistan - anyone who has even one speck of historical knowledge knows what a fools mission any invasion of Afghanistan is.

It's the place empires go to die - which, well, an argument can be made for that being a good thing, I guess.

[datasuspect]

23. the taliban gets a lot of funding from the US State Department and civilian contractors

and all that cheap heroin flooding the US? nah, that's just coincidence.

[Democracyinkind]

27. American wars? Drugs? the "Ted Shackley reloaded gang" ? No. No. Freedom.

Everybody tie off your veins the freedom train is coming thru!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. "Killing is fun?"

I don't like his reasoning about Afghanistan and the glacial withdrawal from Iraq. And, I didn't vote for him precisely for those reasons.

[Becky72]

34. Who are you quoting?

Not me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. One of our heroic generals in Iraq.

I hate to tell you this, but that's what soldiers get paid to do. Fun or not.

[Liberation Angel]

25. George Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld ACTUALLY sheltered and financed Osama Bin Laden

Both Bushes were involved in giving Osama and his followers training with US Taxpayer money just as Blackwater got money to train as terrorists to torture and kill and assassinate are now set loose in Afghanistan and elsewhere and may be a plague forever on this country.

The war against terrorism is in our backyard and in the halls of power and might and filthy lucre and mammon. As a pacifist i say we must arm ourselves with knowledge and words and Satyagraha and Love to resist the evil surrounding us and to seek redemption for the crimes and mass murders done in our names and with our tax donations.

I opposed the war in Afghanistan when it started and oppose it now.

it is a mistake, a quagmire and it is based on a lie

As for 9-11 I am in the MIHOP camp. It was a false flag operation carried out, financed and directed by our own evil citizens with the assistance of the Saudis and other extremists and fundamentalist fascists.

Obama is WRONG WRONG WRONG on this war.

It benefits only the elites and the wealthiest scum of the earth.

I am sorry you are deluded by the lie and obfuscation.

I voted for Obama too. But I knew I would oppose him on this issue even while I support him on may others and wish him success.

He has the evil Bushian coldwarrior Brzezinski whispering evil things in his ear and wall street bankers and military spooks filling their pockets on the bloodlust killing our own citizens and brown people.

Obama should know better.

And hopefully you will soon too.

welcome to DU.

[Lagomorph]

28. OK, but tell me what it is we're trying to accomplish...

[Individualist]

30. Delete

Posted in the wrong place.

[Swamp Rat]

33. Stand by your beliefs and enlist tomorrow... it's your patriotic duty.

Good luck!:hi:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

37. Oh, shut up........

You're full of it, and Americans are dying in Afghanistan for no reason the same way they died in Iraq for no reason.

[Mari333]

41. +1!

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZombieHorde]

40. I have a hard time supporting a war which has no clear goals. nt

[spanone]

43. i do not support the war in afghanistan...i still voted for Obama. i respectfully disagree w/him

[Dr Fate]

45. And I "support" a war on the moon. Lucky for me, I'm nowhere near the moon.

But seriously, the problem is now I'm being told that "we cant afford a public option."

Well, that means we cant afford wars in foreign deserts either.

Hey, take care of me at home, then I might not complain so much about a few goodies for the pentagon & the industrial military complex.

[mvd]

48. I do not

Escalation in Afghanistan would lead to an Iraq situation, even worse. We should focus on improving and actually LISTENING to our intelligence services. 9/11 only happened because of negligence/LIHOP. I haven't ruled out MIHOP, but I'm going the middle route due to lack of investigation.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. What is the mission? What is the exit strategy?

I thought the mission was supposed to be "eliminate al qaeda and bin Laden". That is obviously not the mission.

When is the war won? What are the victory conditions? When will we be leaving? How many people do we have to kill there before you think it will be enough blood to avenge 9-11?

[mvd]

50. Good questions that can't really be answered

At least I think Obama won't let it get too deep when polls are souring on the war.

[Parche]

51. that is not a war either

both are illegal invasions, and troops should be withdrawn asap...:hi:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

52. I don't. We're already fighting enough "wars" here at home.

I'd rather see the funding go toward health care, quality education, job creation and alternative energy sources, just to name a few areas. I'm not alright with the continuation of a crusade which we will not "win" since there's no winning in a situation such as the one Afghanistan presents.

[Dr Fate]

53. That is a very simple, moderate and easy-to-sell position that most Americans agree with.

Do ya wanna spend money in a foreign desert, or do ya wanna spend your money here in the good old USA?

I know how most Americans would answer this.


But something tells me we are not going to have any "Town halls" on this where we can say so.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

66. No matter how reasonable a stance against military involvement in that region

Reasoning runs up against a wall of sensationalism. There are still enough people shell-shocked from what took place in 2001, and enough lemmings willing to spew whatever the recent meme is regarding national security, to muddle a reasonable message.

Just look at the vocal (and nutty) minority regarding health care and Obama's speech to the school children. Then look at the insane amount of press this minority receives and the way the media entertains their folly rather than report facts. Look at the crazy birthers. A real press would have ripped their lies apart and then ignored them. Instead we actually had MSM stories covering it and politicians (Sen, R Shelby, R. Roy Blunt) feeding it. Just look at how many reasonable messages have been dropped by the media for a sensational, wacky story.

I'm not saying it's hopeless, it's far from that. It just feels some days as if all things reasonable have become the enemy of the American MSM.

[datasuspect]

69. not to mention the security situations in iraq and afghanistan provide a fertile, living laboratory

for the encroaching police state.

the methods developed, improved, and deployed in these theaters provide much statistical data, research, reports, and other related information. some of the best minds that money can buy analyze this information and make programmatic changes to the ways civilian/government interface is conducted.

that's why you're seeing the militarization of local police forces.

iraq and afghanistan are just training grounds for further perfected and more efficient atrocities.

[latebloomer]

54. Nah, I didn't vote for him because I "liked his reasoning"

on Afghanistan.

I voted for him DESPITE his stand on Afghanistan. I voted for him with trepidation, because I think we should get the hell out of that area and start putting our money into our own problems.

I voted for him because there was no real choice. Nobody who I believed in was able to get anywhere close to nomination.

And, sadly, he is showing that my doubts were well-founded.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

56. Hit&Run.

I'm sure you're at the recruiting station.

[spanone]

57. lots of these lately

[Solly Mack]

59. Thus Spake Keyboard Ranger

[LynnTheDem]

60. I don't.

[DireStrike]

61. You should look into all the cash interests involved. Oil and Drugs.

And the arms industry of course. Always.

No doubt we are making something from these record poppy harvests that we are somehow never able to stop. Frankly I couldn't care less if people are doing drugs, but I don't like to see the warlords in this country financed by that...

[TexasObserver]

62. I don't.

[shadowknows69]

63. How nice for you. Not me.

[KansDem]

67. Maybe we should be kicking Saudi butt?

15 of the 19 attackers on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia. Why are we in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Shouldn't we be bombing the hell out of Saudi Arabia?

[blindpig]

68. sigh...

[fascisthunter]

70. I Don't, especially after talking to a Merc who was there...

it's BS...

When military command demands soldiers burn down poppy fields, and then retracts that order based on whose field it is, I say our tax funded military has no business being there.

Of course this is only one small tidbit of a reason why I am against our military being there.

[Greyhound]

72. Then you you were suckered by another Big Lie campaign.

The mass-murder in Afghanistan has nothing to do with any of that crap, and you should know it.

Grow up.

[noamnety]

73. I assume you would support an attack/war against the US then

given that the US has provided significant resources to Osama Bin Laden and to the taliban.

As for this crap:

"Obama ran with the promise to continue the war in Afghanistan and stopping the war in Iraq; and we knew this and we didn't complain,"

1) he did not run with the promise to "stop the war in Iraq" as many of us have repeatedly pointed out.
2) Many of us DID complain about his foreign policy positions, ramping up the war in Afghanistan, committing to keeping troops in Iraq.

Also: "In Iraq, the war was bad not because soldiers were dying, but because they were dying in vain."

No, "dying in vain" isn't the reason the war was wrong.

[gratuitous]

74. Too bad my tax dollars are supporting your war

I'd far rather be paying for universal health care, but we bought these two wars a few years ago. My, how bright and shiny they were! Well, they're kind of tarnished now, all that wear and tear. But gee, didn't it feel good to watch all those explosions lighting up the sky over Baghdad or Kabul or some luckless wedding party?

I voted for Obama in part because his opponent was not only going to continue the war in Afghanistan, but the one in Iraq, too. And he was itching to start one in Iran, and if they looked cross-eyed at us, in North Korea as well. I certainly didn't vote for Obama to keep pounding sand down any rat holes, but you have to vote for the candidates you have, not the candidates you want.

[TayTay]

75. The question is what are we at war with and over at this time?

Becky, I can understand your sentiments on this. No one wants another 9/11. However, the increased murmurs of discontent against the war in Afghanistan are not murmurs about stopping terrorism, they are alarms about whether full-scale war and the increased presence of American troops in Afghanistan can accomplish the goal of diminishing Al Qaeda/Taliban influence in that country.

This is, in a sense, not about being for or against a war. It is an argument about how to deploy forces to accomplish a specific goal. If Gen. McCrystal gets an additional 10,000 troops over the 20,000 already approved to go to Afghanistan, then there will be over 77,000 troops in that country. Afghanistan is a huge country. 77,000 troops are still not a lot of soldiers on the ground to patrol an area of that size. Can 77,000 troops do anything that will really affect lasting political change in that country? Many people think troops size alone cannot.

What is the goal or objective of US action in Afghanistan? Do we need troops on the level we are thinking about to obtain this goal? Ah, more importantly, do we have a goal that can actually be met?

No one wants another 9/11 or to think another horror of it's like could be fomented in Afghanistan/Pakistan. But are we attacking the right problem in escalating or sending more troops to Afghanistan? Are there things the US is doing that are better done by NGO's (Non-governmental organizations) that can contribute to stabilizing that country? Is the US enabling corruption by propping up local warlords who issue oppressive orders and run governments under a system of bribery and threats?

The Taliban came to power because the people craved order after the Soviet/Afghan war. The Taliban was harsh and repressive, but it was order. The regime before it fell because it was inherently unstable and ran on bribery and ran on corruption. Are we enabling the very thing we don't want by our presence. (A false stability that feeds anger and could lead to another takeover by oppressive forces.)

What is victory in Afghanistan? What is the goal? We can't have a strategy, or tactics or logistics to implement that until we figure out what victory or the endpoint means. The argument is an argument over that.

The US is filled with good intentions. But, as we all know, the road to hell can be paved with good intentions. We have to decide *if* we have the power to affect the change we want there and how much time, troop deployments, money and resources it will cost us and what all that expenditure will actually get us. More and more people are coming to conclude that we can't affect change because the expenditure is not possible. We will never have enough people, money, equipment or time to remake Afghanistan. It is not our country after all. Maybe we should try and understand our limitations there first and develop a better way to diminish the role of terrorism in the world. A full-scale war is not doing what we want it to do, it is not and cannot meet our goals.