If Obama caves on public option: Who do you back in primary in 2012: Dean or Kucinich?

[ddeclue]

Poll question: If Obama caves on public option: Who do you back in primary in 2012: Dean or Kucinich?

It appears likely that we are going to get screwed by fake reform which forces us all to buy a policy from the insurance thieves that won't be worth the paper it's printed on but we will NOT get a REAL public option - it will be held off for years and even then only with a trigger that only the insurance thieves have control over.

If this happens, if Obama sells us out, my question is who do we back to primary Obama in 2012:

Dean or Kucinich?

[Buzz Clik]

1. Obama.

[ddeclue]

5. not an option in this poll

:P

[Hansel]

76. Obama as neither of the poll's options will be options in 2012 either.

Neither has a chance of a snowball in hell of ever being president.

[WeDidIt]

111. That's what I was told about Obama in 2005

:eyes:

[Hansel]

128. Not by me you weren't. I expected Obama to be president if he ran. nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

124. But it will be an option outside of fantasy land

[wpelb]

93. Pres. Obama's problem here

This thread was started by those who believe that Pres. Obama's tactic that I have described as "not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good" (i.e., being willing to compromise on the public option) is a sellout to the Republicans, the Blue Dogs, and/or the insurance industry.

If Pres. Obama is ineffective on this issue, I don't know how Gov. Dean or Rep. Kucinich would be any less ineffective. Both can be painted as lunatics, or at least on the fringe, not only by the Republicans, but also by at least some fellow Democrats. Most likely, if either is the standard-bearer for the Democratic Party in 2012, the Republicans (unless they run a washed-up has-been like Bob Dole) will be drooling at the chance to retake the White House.

If I had posted the poll, I would have at least allowed Secretary of State Clinton as a third option.

[Buzz Clik]

147. I find that pretty simplistic and ignoring the stark realities of politics.

[NotThisTime]

174. No doubt...

[Drunken Irishman]

2. What makes you think either would run?

lol

You're funny.

[mzmolly]

3. I'm not sure why anyone would blame Obama? He isn't on the finance

committee. He will do what he has the votes to do. I'd prefer to target Dems in the Senate/House who don't support a public option.

[ddeclue]

8. Why choose? I'll work to primary Bill Nelson here in Florida too!

:P

[Yuugal]

160. Obama is the head of the party....

....the buck stops at him. If he cant get his democratic ducks in a row then he is just as ineffective as Hillary supporters during the primaries said he would be.

[mzmolly]

161. But he's not a dictator.

We live in a democracy, the buck stops with each individual in the senate/house. RE: Hillary supporters and their supposed gripes ~ I think I'd reconsider insulting Obama on getting health care passed ... considering.

[Yuugal]

162. The president is the leader of the party.

For you to say otherwise smacks of the same apologist crap we hear whenever Obama lets us down.

[mzmolly]

188. We live in a democracy. Obama is the President, not

the king.

[MessiahRp]

217. Well I'll be consistent and say if the Public Option dies Primary ALL of them!

Every Blue Dog AND Obama should take accountability for selling us down the river.

Rp

[knixphan]

203. same.

[Sebastian Doyle]

209. The minute Obama signs a shitty bill, he owns the failure outright.

He said he would veto a shit bill (anything without a public option) but if he backtracks on that in the name of political expediency, then it becomes HIS shit bill.

[mzmolly]

218. I think the term "shitty" is subjective

in this case?

[Sebastian Doyle]

221. Anything short of a True Public Option

would be shitty.

[mzmolly]

222. According to many of us

perhaps. But it's not nearly as shitty as not having any reform at all.

[Sebastian Doyle]

223. There is NO reform without the public option

shuffling the deck chairs on the USS Corporate Criminal Scam won't change a damn thing. The insurance corporations are the problem. Nothing involving them can be the solution.

Nobody here would ask David Duke to promote racial harmony, or Fred Phelps to lead the fight for marriage equality. Expecting insurance companies to fix health care is just as ridiculous.

[mzmolly]

224. Regulation

caps on pricing and demanding that insurers not turn down those with pre-existing conditions, would be helpful.

[Sebastian Doyle]

226. And everything that's happened to this country since 1980

proves that regulations are only good until somebody gets bought off to write them out of existence.

[mzmolly]

227. True, but we needn't stop at regulation.

It's a first step at the very least. I'm not saying I don't fully support a public option, I'm saying I am not going to be angry about something before the facts are in.

Peace

[mike_c]

4. Kucinich, all the way....

I'd probably be happy with a President Dean, but I'd be ecstatic about President Kucinich.

[KittyWampus]

28. Why? A President Kucinich would get absolutely nothing done. Well, he'd certainly spout off

about all the liberal policies we wish were being enacted.

We wouldn't move any closer to accomplishing any of those policies, but at least Dennis would rail about it.

[mike_c]

50. because even so, the first step toward getting any liberal policies enacted...

...is having a strong advocate of liberalism in the top office. That's where it has to start.

And I'm not willing to concede that Kucinich would necessarily be ineffective. With the current congress? Probably not, but that's not Kucinich's fault, is it? And congressional resistance to change is not a particularly good reason to avoid electing a strong advocate for change-- and it is CERTAINLY NOT a good reason to elect a status quo enabler who won't struggle for liberal ideals at all!

on edit-- NOT implying that Dean is that enabler, of course. Only objecting to the principle of doing so.

[knixphan]

205. can't argue with that.

[suzie]

232. So , Kucinich wouldn't be ineffective.

But, just in case he were ineffective, it would be the Congress's fault.

BUT, BUT, BUT, if Obama is ineffective, then THAT'S OBAMA'S FAULT, not Congress's.

Why do the Kucinich adorers feel that Dennis should not be held to the standards that we use to judge any other politician?

[mike_c]

242. what part of...

..."I'm not willing to concede that Kucinich would necessarily be ineffective" didn't you understand?

[Hansel]

+1. The strategy of loading up local offices with Progressives would be far more effective. nt

[Kitty Herder]

166. If he were to be elected, that would signal a HUGE leftward swing in American poltics.

He would probably be working with a new, highly progressive congress voted in by the newly progressive public at the same time as himself. So, yeah, he'd be able to accomplish a lot, if he were elected. But that ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.

[damntexdem]

118. I chose Kucinich, but ...

I'm not sure that I would be bothering with a Dem primary in 2012 under those conditions.

[Kitty Herder]

165. Same here. If only...

If only Kucinich were tall, handsome and had a pleasant voice. Unfortunately, this far too image-conscious nation will never elect a short, funny-looking man with a high-pitched voice for the office of President.

I greatly admire Kucinich and would vote for him in a heartbeat, but I'm afraid you and I are in a tiny minority.

[sandnsea]

6. Go Create Your Own Party

Get elected and pass what you want. That's Democracy.

[mike_c]

11. so is kicking the bastards out when they don't represent their constituents....

Of course, democracy has also been defined as "the best government money can buy" and "the government people deserve!" :rofl:

[Echo In Light]

41. And than some n/t

[sandnsea]

73. Go to Arkansas and North Dakota

and then say the "bastards" aren't representing their constituents.

[mike_c]

101. that may be true, but I think there is a clear public mandate...

...favoring significant health care reform in the U.S., and Obama's constituency is much broader than the red states alone. Also, the executive's job-- and arguably congresses job too-- is not necessarily to endorse the majority view if that view is not in the best interests of the nation. Representing one's constituency does not always mean doing what they want you to do.

[sandnsea]

156. Those are Democratic Party states

As is Montana.

And in one breath you say the bastards aren't representing their constituents - and in the next you say it doesn't always mean doing what they want you to do.

What you really mean is if you can't have your own way, you're going to sit in the corner and suck your thumb and throw rocks at everybody who won't cater to your tantrum.

[Sebastian Doyle]

180. Then what's Wyden's excuse?

Or, Patty Murray? Or DINOanne Feinstein? They don't represent "conservative" states. But they sure act like it.

[sandnsea]

181. They'll all vote for a public option

The only reason it's any problem with them is because it's a problem with the Blue Dogs and they don't think it'll pass. But they've all committed to vote for it if it makes it into the final bill.

[ddeclue]

12. This IS my party and I've been instrumental in getting a Congressman and several state reps elected

and if you want to play in Florida you need to be on MY good side, not the other way around.


Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[sandnsea]

71. Florida?? lol. You're fucking state is half the problem n/t

[ddeclue]

80. Yeah right... we went blue this time..,.sorry but you've guessed wrong nt.

[sandnsea]

157. lol. Florida is all about single payer health care

Right. You betcha.

Why do you not fix your own damn states before you trash the ones who are having to fight YOUR representatives to get any progress at all.

[WeDidIt]

112. Nah, I'll work the primaries. It's faster.

And damnit, no public option and I won't be voting for Obama in 2012.

[blogslut]

7. This is getting boring

n/t

[LiberalAndProud]

103. Tiresome.

[MindPilot]

9. I worked hard on the Dean campaign in '04

I think now, much more more seasoned in national politics, he could could take it easily in 2012.

[Hansel]

85. I worked hard for Dean too. He has no chance against Obama.

It's just not going to happen.

[MindPilot]

133. Agreed. I read the question as hypothetically strictly Dean or Kucinich.

and Obama being a one-termer.

[SIMPLYB1980]

10. Neither.nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Who will you back?

Palin, or Cheney?

[ddeclue]

14. Howard Dean!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Dean's an Obama man.

[ddeclue]

22. He's been a strong supporter of public option - if he fails me then I'll back Kucinich.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. Kucinich is also an Obama man.

Try harder.

[ddeclue]

33. he won't be if Obama caves - try harder yourself..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Sure he will.

You think Kucinich could push anything better through Congress?

No, you don't.

[redqueen]

40. Disagree...

some of these people just might be that delusional.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. Nah.

Nobody's that stupid.

[redqueen]

55. Well... they seem to think Kucinich would run against a Dem...

so I'd say the evidence proves you wrong.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. Occam's razor.

Are they that stupid? Or just dishonest?

[redqueen]

70. Aha...

yes, I see your point.

[ddeclue]

43. we need to work to throw the blue dogs out on their ass

and have people who actually listen to us - like Alan Grayson here in FL-08. If you want to keep not being represented by corporatist stooges that's your mistake not mine.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. Well, I'll agree with you there.

Republicans pretending to be Dems are human scum, and deserve to be mocked and ridiculed at all opportunities.

Lulz.

[Drunken Irishman]

27. lol

Get ready for both to fail you.

I'll bet my left nut they don't oppose Obama.

Especially Dean (or do you really actually know who Howard Dean is, because I don't think you do).

If Kucinich does, he loses 99-1.

:D

[Sebastian Doyle]

56. It's true that Dean did a lot to make Obama's election possible

It's also true that Obama's entire campaign and fundraising strategy was heavily based on the Dean model. But healthcare - the true public option - is now Dr. Dean's cause. And if Obama fails to deliver on that promise, I can see Howard putting that principle above the idea of standing behind a President simply because he calls himself a Democrat.

Was Ted Kennedy wrong to challenge Jimmy Carter in 1980? Some would say it enabled Reagan, but I don't think so. Reagan's "advantage" came from the fact that Poppy Bush rigged the Iran hostage clusterfuck to run into "extra innings". And in 2012 (if Obama drops the ball on health care) that will be the Repukes weapon against him.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Sebastian, you'd believe anything.

Chemtrails, bigfoot, Dean in a 2012 primary.

[Sebastian Doyle]

104. I've never said one word about chemtrails.

As for Bigfoot..... well I live in Cascadia. We have Sasquatch militias here.

[Freddie Stubbs]

177. Dean did a lot to make quite a few Blue Dogs' election possible

His 50 state strategy helped gain a foothold in areas where Democrats had not been competitive on the federal level for many years.

[Sebastian Doyle]

179. Don't blame him for that travesty.

The idea of the 50 state strategy was to elect Democrats. It was the treasonous Emanuel and Schumer who perverted that whole thing into keeping REAL Democrats out of those races, and running Blue Balled Cowards for those seats.

And where did that get us, Fred? With a bunch of useless shitheads who can't even vote with the party when it's literally a matter of life and death. :evilfrown:

[Freddie Stubbs]

183. So, Emmanuel and Schumer should get the credit for winning Congress instead of Dean?

:shrug:

What did it get us? How about the first increase in the minimum wage in ten years for starters?

[Sebastian Doyle]

187. Those two backstabbers shouldn't get credit for shit.

As I said, it was Dean who made the congressional victory possible. It was Rahm and Chuckles who ensured the best candidates would be forced out of the races and replaced by Blue Balled DINOs :( Real Democrats could have won those seats, but they couldn't get any help from the DLC-corrupted DCCC or the DSCC.

[bigdarryl]

15. STUPID!!! post niether is running against Obama

[kid a]

16. "stewie! stewie! stewie!"

stupid poll

[Davis_X_Machina]

17. Kucinich is the answer!

Regardless of the question!

DU Rule #27.

[KittyWampus]

19. Howard Dean would never run but I wouldn't put it past Kucinich.

[redqueen]

26. Disagree... Kucinich is a solid Dem. (nt)

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DevonRex]

30. +1.

[dem629]

42. Yeah! No one should have larger principles! Everyone should be loyal to one politician!!!!

:eyes:

[redqueen]

49. How about you try seeing reality?

It's kinda helpful for actually, y'know... making progress?

You're out of your mind if you think they'll run against Obama... but keep dreaming. It's entertaining to watch, at least.

[dem629]

58. That's an excellent argument for settling for mediocrity

and broken promises and, frankly, giving a leader a blank check.

I'm sure that's your reality, just as it is for many, which is why this country is so fucked up.

So, by all means, keep the cycle going.

[redqueen]

74. Call Kucnich...

maybe he can explain it to you.

[dem629]

81. No need. I saw the Bush supporters give their guy a blank check.

So I recognize your M.O.

[redqueen]

83. No, really. Ask him if he'd ever consider what you're proposing.

Do it. I dare you.

[dem629]

91. Oooooh, a dare.

Sorry, I only respond to "double dares." Got one of those in your formidable rhetorical quiver?

How do you know I would support Kucinich? Or are you just trying to focus in on a narrow aspect of the larger issue (as usual)?

[redqueen]

96. Oh FFS... it's just a fucking saying...

:rofl:

I'll stop talking about reality and let y'all get on with your little super-lefty True Progressive^TM circle jerk.

:hi:

[dem629]

Yes, I know it's just a saying. And I know that you used it

b/c you had no real point. I'm not sure why I'm surprised, though.

Have a good one!

:toast:

[redqueen]

145. LOL... you know that I used it, do you?

How'd you crack that code, Sherlock?

[BlooInBloo]

190. I don't know what you said, but I suspect I liked it.

:P

[redqueen]

240. It was short, unsweet, and to the point.

:7

[Sebastian Doyle]

21. Why choose between the two?

A Dean/Kucinich ticket would be the strongest ticket ever. Together you would have the two guys who were right about everything. I believe the Doctor would make a stronger candiate though.

[lamp_shade]

24. Stupid poll.

[DevonRex]

25. Good lord.

:eyes:

[FrenchieCat]

29. The Dean vs. Obama meme is starting to wear on me already......

It ain't constructive at all.
Certainly it ain't gonna help those without Health Insurance....

As for Howard Dean doing anything better than President Obama,
the media put him away long ago, and I'm sure they will be willing to do it again,
and he wouldn't pass shit...cause if you don't think the media
is part of why Health Care reform is so difficult,
think again.

The grass may look greener somewhere else,
but that just wishful thinking.

[kjackson227]

31. It's hard for Obama to get legislation passed, so I doubt very seriously...

that either one of these would be able to.

[ddeclue]

37. Obama is too busy caving to actually try..n/t

[kjackson227]

54. Oh, I didn't know you had a special hook-up to the Whitehouse...

keep dreaming.

[ddeclue]

66. You'd be surprised...I don't dream... I do. nt

[kjackson227]

82. Yeah, right... Well, my "do" is mightier than yours...

or better yet, wish in one hand and sh*t in the other and see which one fills up faster. I'll see you and the other naysayers in 2012.

OBAMA/BIDEN, 2012!!!

[ddeclue]

99. Blah blah.. whatever... I know what I've done I don't know many who have done as much.

don't ask for my money or my time or my vote in 2012 if you want to screw me on healthcare.

It's a deal breaker and I've got REAL progressives to support instead of pretenders.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. I'll back Kucinich even if Obama doesn't cave.

[quiet.american]

34. Unrec. Our man in 2012 is Obama. Period. nt

[ddeclue]

39. He might be YOUR man but he won't be MINE if he screws us on healthcare.

[quiet.american]

51. Thanks for the preview of the "divide and conquer" tactic that will no doubt come up in 2012. nt

[ddeclue]

60. Doesn't have to be that way if Obama will actually stand up for Democratic principles on this issue.

I'm not the one selling us out.

[quiet.american]

65. Last I heard, neither has Obama. nt

[dem629]

46. That's the kind of blank check the hard-core Bush supporters gave their guy.

Congrats.

[quiet.american]

57. Yeah, a fractured Democratic Party in 2012. That's a winner! nt

[dem629]

62. All for the party. Party over everything.

[quiet.american]

68. Compared to what? President Palin? Because that's what a fractured party will deliver. nt

[dem629]

78. How much did that crystal ball cost you?

And how did you afford it after giving a blank check to one political organization with no strings attached?

[quiet.american]

86. You seemed stunned to find a loyal Democrat on DemocraticUnderground.

Fracturing the Democratic Party with a Democratic primary challenge to a sitting Democratic president will benefit one party only -- the Republicans. That's reality, and one needs no crystal ball to see it.

[dem629]

94. I'm always stunned by people who are loyal to a party at any cost.

I hope I'll always be stunned by it.

So what we have here on your part is an admission that no matter what Obama does as President, you will support him in 2012.

[quiet.american]

98. Over a Republican, any day. I'm not fooling myself that a primary challenge would benefit Dems.

The GOP candidate would win, and the Democratic Party would be left shattered. No thanks.

As a Democrat, I am loyal to my party. That's why I'm against destroying it from within.

[dem629]

100. Oh, I know. I just wanted to clarify that there is nothing he could do to lose your support.

Nothing.

[quiet.american]

109. You seem to be confusing party with candidate.

That said, there is nothing that would get me to support another Dem candidate mounting a primary challenge in 2012. It would tear the Democratic Party apart.

[dem629]

114. No, not when the party has a sitting President.

He's the leader of the party, and the leader of the country, so there is no clearer embodiment of the party. You said you're a loyal Democrat so you will support the party.

Is there anything he could do to lose your support for him and the party?

[quiet.american]

122. There's a subtler distinction.

I would not support a Dem primary challenger in 2012 because of what it would do to the Democratic Party, not because of what it would do to President Obama.

If there is anything Pres. Obama could do that would cause him to lose my support, I'll know it when I see it.

Until then, OBAMA 2012.

[dem629]

135. I'll stick with principles over party or individual politicians.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

[quiet.american]

139. Thanks. And I'll stick to ensuring we have a Democratic administration rather than GOP. nt

[Sebastian Doyle]

184. If a "Democratic" administration is acting like a Republican administration

then how the fuck is there a difference? And yes, if you enable Wall Street whores, Insurance criminals, and escalate wars that we never should have been in to begin with, that IS acting like a Republican. So far, Obama's done two out of those three. Cheerleaders will excuse that as "trying to clean up the mess Chimpy left him". Perhaps that's the case, or perhaps it isn't. But caving in and accepting anything less than a true public option would be a failure that could not, in any capacity, be blamed on Half Assed Monkey Boy.

[quiet.american]

195. Amidst all the profanity, what is your real-world alternative?

Real world:

FAUX and friends exploit the split in the Democratic Party.

GOP exploits the split in the Democratic Party.

GOP candidate wins.

Happy now?

[Sebastian Doyle]

206. In the REAL world (i.e. every industrialized country EXCEPT the United Corporations of AmeriKKKa)

They have non-profit health care. Yes, even in the few countries that HAVE private entities in the mix, the laws prohibit them operating for profit.

THAT is the REAL WORLD.

Not the world according to the Bush Crime Family and the DLC that has thoroughly corrupted the former USA for the last 30 years.

I do, in fact, want a REAL WORLD solution. You, apparently, do not.

[quiet.american]

207. Why don't we stick to winning U.S. elections. Because that's where we are in the real world.

Look, we're actually on the same side. Of course, I would love to see healthcare reform from Rep. Anthony Weiner's point of view -- Medicare for All.

However, I do not think a primary challenge to the incumbent Democratic president is the way to do it.

Anything outside of what I've just said that is assumed about what I think or don't think is not true.

[Sebastian Doyle]

208. We won the last two elections (2006 & 2008)

So when do we start ACTING like it?

You want to win the next two elections? Pass REAL health care reform. Preferably single payer, at the very LEAST a true public option.

Do this and there will be Democratic landslides in 2010 and 2012. Fail to do this, and there might well be landslides the other direction. Not to mention that there will never be another opportunity to bring US healthcare up to the standards of our Canadian neighbors. Hell, even Mexico is kicking our asses right now.

[quiet.american]

210. No argument with that! nt

[quiet.american]

212. Dupe. nt

[quiet.american]

213. Dupe. nt

[quiet.american]

214. Dupe. nt

[quiet.american]

215. No argument with that! (on your "We won" post) nt

[DevonRex]

67. I think that's their intent. Fracture the party and the Repukes win. nt

[dem629]

72. Yep. It's a conspiracy!

When people stand up for principle over supporting a political organization at any cost, why, it just must be a grand conspiracy!

[quiet.american]

90. I have no doubt the GOP will attempt to do this in the leadup to 2012. nt

[Individualist]

87. The party is already fractured. The damn DLC fractured it!

[quiet.american]

92. No, I don't agree with that. There aren't huge Evan Bayh crowds out there. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Neither, the US of the Corporations, by the Corps and for the Corps

is well in place. The system is rigged and nobody who actually will challenge this will be allowed to win..

The illusion will be maintained for the fools that still believe it.

[MindPilot]

44. why do you even bother to still participate in the process

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Local politics where I can still make a difference, perhaps

and as to national I already told them, they don't get something significant, they can kiss my vote good bye

The rep asked, republican?

No third party.

She admitted that they been getting calls like this often now.

It is called resistance to this new form of fascism... and yes the classic definition fits.

[Echo In Light]

95. In the bigger pic, I suspect many espousing the heterodox view already have one foot out the door

There's a part of those, well, us, since I'd define my political position along these lines as well, that thinks it's better to state a view that many will find unfavorable, knowing it will largely fall on deaf ears ... coupled with a sense of going ahead and walking out that door for good, realizing that the complicated futility of it all will invariably win out.

After all, as history shows, empire's die off. Maybe what's happening is just a form of mass denial re that as our's is in its death throes. Or, maybe enough people can come finally together to fight this monolithic, corporate power structure, and make small, altruistic advances along the way? Who knows? I tend to think the former is what's actually happening.

[datasuspect]

173. there is no real point in participating in the process

the corporatist platform is being well-represented and advocated from the top down. there is no populist movement, no meaningful actions being undertaken to ease the erosion of the middle class and the suffering of the lower classes. crime is out of control in many american cities--and the suburbs aren't even immune to the specter of "home invasions."

meth and crack are at epidemic proportions.

the majority of americans have been shut out of the process. they have no effective voice or redress.

the funny thing is that the flat earthers WILL win, because we have become a nation of mean-spirited, venal lifestyle addicts with the attention span of gnats and who can be easily swayed by errant nonsense. in fact, there are too, too many people who arrogantly and loudly pollute the body politic by their proud and boastful error. in other words, these are complete morons who are being manipulated by political marketing campaigns left and right who loudly profess their ignorance and wear it as a badge of honor. these are the same people who could be motivated to spill blood to ensure the primacy of their delusion over all rational voices.

in short, aside from being involved on a local school board or some similar local governing body, there is little effective action the average individual can take to protect their civil liberties and individual freedom in the face of a nascent police state.

the revolution will come from the twisted guts of america: its white suburban sprawl; its oklahoma, missouri, and kansas. these are the people who will ensure that the highly profitable darkness stays upon for as long as it remains cost-effective for our masters to have it remain so.

[MindPilot]

36. Man, some people just don't get the concept of hypothetical. /nt

[Echo In Light]

45. Cheerleaders feeling the inevitable bearing down? n/t

[MindPilot]

53. I fear you may be right /nt

[Kalyke]

47. Wes Clark.

:)

[Oregone]

63. Dean has lied too much shilling for this "reform"

[DefenseLawyer]

69. The President doesn't have a vote in the Senate

You Green Party clowns are an endless source of amusement.

[ddeclue]

84. Actually NO - I'm a Democratic Precinct Committeeman in Orange County FL

and I was an organizer for John Edwards in 2007 and it turns out that you really need a candidate to specifically say what he or she is for or against after all instead of just throwing out the word "change" - "change" isn't necessarily "better" or "worse" - it's just "change.

[kjackson227]

97. Ohhhh! Now, that turned out well, now didn't it???

Are you kidding me??? BWhahahhahahha!

[ddeclue]

105. Actually it HAS but of course YOU wouldn't know the first thing about it.

We've gone from a 1-3 Congressional delegation to a 3-1 Congressional delegation, we elected a Democratic Sheriff and prior to that we won 3 state house seats, two by special election thanks to work that I was involved in.

Our county is registered DEMOCRATIC by 60,000+ votes and we OWN it and we didn't just 5 years ago. I bet YOU can't make the same claim for your own county.

:P

[kjackson227]

121. No, I can't, but I'm sure all of us OBAMA supporters will do our part...

to get our man elected, AGAIN! Stop being so full of yourself- don't forget it was a TEAM effort.

[ddeclue]

127. yeah right... I'm not so impressed with "the team"..

some of us did a lot more than others and some of us apparently don't get that it is NOT about a cult of personality - it is about Democratic PRINCIPLES.

:eyes:

[kjackson227]

143. You might not be impressed, but thank goodness it's not all about you.

"Cult of personality", huh??? Soooo, I guess you're saying that President Obama is just a "personality/empty suit, and his supporters are part of a "cult"??? It looks like you've either been asleep the last eight months, or you have another whacked out agenda that has NOTHING to do with "Democratic Principles". But anyway... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

[DefenseLawyer]

108. That's wonderful

A precinct committeeman who thinks Democrats should support Dennis Kucinich in a primary challenge of the President. Ever actually been involved with a winning campaign on any level? I appreciate your frustration, but that may be the stupidest most futile plan I have ever heard. Seriously. What exactly would that prove except to waste time and resources just so everyone would know that you are "really mad"?

[ddeclue]

116. Actually YES - a number of them - I've put about 5000 dollars and 5000 hours into the party

and campaigns since 2003.

Specifically that have won:

Barack Obama - POTUS

U.S. Senator Bill Nelson - D-Senior Senator from Florida

Congressman Alan Grayson D-FL08

State Representative Scott Randolph D-FL36
State Representative Darren Soto D-FL49
State Representative Tony Sasso D-FL32

School Board Member Daryl Flynn Orange District 2

Orange County Commission District 4 Member Linda Stewart

City of Orlando Council Member Sam Ings District 2

I do a combination of fieldwork, opposition research, and voter targetting and analysis work for Democratic candidates here in Central Florida.

[ddeclue]

119. and YES it is a PROTEST but NO it is NOT futile.

You can chase DINO's and blue dogs out - we got rid of a state rep (Sheri McInvale) here in FL HD36 back in 2006 through grass roots activism and have a REAL Democrat serving there now.

You CAN get the gov't you deserve if you work for it instead of just accepting DINO's as the status quo.

[quiet.american]

117. Then, instead of tearing down a Democratic president, why don't you help?

You have experience in organizing -- why not share with us how it's done? We could all use a kick in the pants to get us to rally into action to get healthcare reform done. Why not be constructive about it instead of -- this?

[ddeclue]

123. Here's the point: Either the electeds do what you want or you vote them out!

My observation has been that you can't persuade electeds once they have been elected unless they are already 99%+ in your corner already. If they won't do what you want the only solution is to vote them out and vote someone else IN.

I've GOT the Congressman I want, I'm not very impressed with my Senators but I'm working on getting Kendrick Meek elected to replace Mel Martinez (R) in 2010 and I'll work to replace Nelson in 2012 if he screws us on healthcare. Same goes for Obama.

Doug D.

[quiet.american]

134. There's also something called: timing.

Attempting to pull the rug out from Obama in 2012 - not good timing. Because we can be sure a GOP president would be 99% *against* what we "want."

[ddeclue]

175. Yawn... time is NOT on our side and this is the classic excuse.. "be patient"

sorry but I'm fresh out.

Doug D.

[quiet.american]

200. You're quite the expert at projections, aren't you, Doug D.?

You've projected a sellout by Pres. Obama even before the nation hears from the man himself where he stands.

You'e projected i'm advocating for "patience" in this instance when that was not the intent of my response.

Getting into the "dining room table" territory now.

[suzie]

233. Other than Bill Nelson, who's a high level member of The Family, a blue dog's blue dog

and pretty much votes for everything Republican, I don't notice any statewide successes on your list.

Seems like the "primary Obama with Dennis Kucinich" folks would rather have candidates that will never appeal statewide than ever win another election. Any candidate who might stand a chance at winning a Senate seat or the governorship is immediately cast aside in favor of someone with the appeal of Kucinich.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. neither of them, nor anyone else will run in 2012 from teh dems at any rate

[FreeState]

228. I may just not vote for the first time

That is if heathcare isn't taken care of and DADT isn't overturned and EDNA is not passed - without those 3 I'm only voting local.

[Spazito]

77. Pathetic, truly pathetic n/t

[RC]

79. The enemy already thinks that Obama is a Far Left wing loony Libril now.

What do you think would happen if a real liberal somehow got in?
I'd imagine they'd storm the White House, overpowering the defenses and drag that socialistic commie, liberal out to the nearest tree that's big enough.
With Rush supplying the rope.

From what I am seeing, Obama's moving slowly to the right every day.

[ddeclue]

88. OMG..talk about defeatist excuses...this is OUR country not the RW nut jobs.

[Jennicut]

89. Teddy ran against Carter in 1980...it didn't work and it didn't help the party

Nader in the GE. Didn't help us either.

[VAliberal]

102. President Obama in 2012

[ddeclue]

107. Most likely ex-President Obama in 2013 if he screws us on healthcare.

[treestar]

106. Why is it so absolutely essential?

Obama will do the best he can do and get the most he can get.

It's not single payer which is what I would be for, but there's no way to get that now.

[ddeclue]

110. Because anything less will end up being a total sellout to the insurance thieves.

Read what I wrote: We will all be forced by the gov't to buy worthless in name only policies from the insurance companies and it will just be a big windfall for them, NOT an improvement in access to healthcare for the average American.

[redqueen]

113. Actually no... it'll save lives too... but hey, it's not good enough for you, I get it.

Sorry, I'll stop interjecting with reality... I know how annoying that is.

[ddeclue]

129. No it won't and you can stop interjecting your fantasies any time you like.

[DevonRex]

144. I think this all YOUR fantasy. You want Obama out so you can have

somebody else. So you WANT him to fail. That's my opinion after reading this thread.

[sandnsea]

182. I have subsidized insurance

It's saving mine and my husband's lives already.

[treestar]

148. But we've done without it so far, so how would we be any worse off?

Granted it would not solve the problem of uninsured people, but the political will has to be there.

The government could extend Medicare or Medicaid (forget which) to them. Or it could subsidize them buying insurance from the "thieves." (though I'm not down with completely condemning them - many people work for them and they don't always do wrong).

Many other ways could exist, too.

[WeDidIt]

115. The public option is the compromise

now they want to kill that.

Fuck that noise.

[ddeclue]

130. Thank you YES! If I REALLY got what I wanted it would be HR676!

[DevonRex]

138. Who wants to kill it? Nothing has happened to change anything.

All we have is a bunch of MSM spin, as usual. Can you wait until you here what Obama has to say next week?

Until then, do your usual emailing and phoning. They need to hear from us.

[dionysus]

120. kucinich? a loss in a landslide that would make reagans landslide look neck in neck.

[Common Sense Party]

125. When's the last time a same-party challenger has won the nomination

from the incumbent President? And then gone on to win the presidency?

Has it EVER happened?

[ddeclue]

131. Resistance is futile... you will be assimilated....no thanks!

[Common Sense Party]

151. Ha ha very cute. But has it EVER happened?

With either party?

I'm not even talking about whether it SHOULD happen. Or whether it's even remotely likely that it COULD happen this time, even with a guy like Kucinich on the ticket.

But, with history as our guide, has it EVER happened?

[ddeclue]

132. Resistance is futile... you will be assimilated....no thanks!

[SIMPLYB1980]

141. LOL! Oh Noes!

It's the Borg come to assimilate us all!

[Marsala]

230. Yes, Franklin Pierce, who is a contender with Buchanan and Harding for worst president ever

Also Fillmore, Arthur, Johnson and Coolidge, but they were all VPs not elected into the Presidency.

[Common Sense Party]

236. Thank you for the answer! I didn't know if it had ever happened.

Turns out we have to go back 160 years to find the last occurrence, and, as you said, it was a stunningly incompetent President.

I hardly think Barack is going to suffer the same fate as Franklin Pierce.

[Freddie Stubbs]

126. Obama

[WildEyedLiberal]

136. Poll: If Aliens invade Earth, who will lead the resistance?

Since we're dealing with hypothetical bullshit polls, here...

[quiet.american]

137. That's easy -- Torchwood -- oh wait... maybe not . nt :)

[DevonRex]

140. Sookie Stackhouse and Eric Northman to the rescue!

:rofl:

True Blood, if you didn't get it.

[NeedleCast]

142. Obama

[Kahuna]

146. Obama. Dean and kucinich have both run and lost. No thanks..

We could end up with palin as president.

[Kansas Wyatt]

178. You will get Romney as President if Obama continues to CAVE in on Health Care.

Sorry, it's just a simple fact that the American People did NOT vote in Obama for him to roll over for Corporate America and/or act like a Republican. Yes, the People will stay home, if the choice is between a Republican or Republican Lite in the White House.

Palin has already ruined any chance she remotely had of ever being President, and she will continue shooting herself in the foot.

[Kahuna]

231. Then you will get what YOU deserve. I know what choice to make. nt

[Kansas Wyatt]

237. It has nothing to do with 'me getting what I deserve'

It has everything to do with whether the People are given a choice, other than Republican or Republican Lite. 'I' know the lesser of two evils, but a lot of people get to the point where they see no difference between Republican or Republican Lite, especially after they voted for a Democratic government with a mandate. Obama and the Democrats would be in a much stronger position if they would have continued toward the Left, instead of moving to the Right.

By the way... Dean and Kucinich lost in the Primary, not the Election. Dean would not have moved his position to the Right either, and the American People would be getting what they voted for... A government that represents the People, not Corporate America. What is good for Corporate America, doesn't mean it's good for the People, nor is it deserved.

[Captain_Nemo]

149. Idea! How about a woman on the list? Since we have never had a woman in oval office

Let's try for a woman president and get to where some great countries in the rest of the world are and have been:
Norway
Finland
Liberia
Germany
Israel
India

[pscot]

150. You left out HRC

If Obama's poll numbers are in the tank, she'll be back.

[ddeclue]

152. Don't consider her a liberal so I left her out. nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

185. Our party doesn't nominate liberals for President any more. Only moderates

[Generator]

153. I'm 100% sure Obama will be re-elected

and he certainly spends every waking moment of his first term being the full time politician and not much of a leader. I think our last hope for humanity is his second term as he might man up and actually do something instead of saying he's going to do something. We all know we lost the Democratic party on national security/war. That ship has sailed. We think hope pray oh stupid fools we are that they still stand for social issues and health care and labor.

If that is all gone too-what is the Democratic party besides a bunch of sellouts and tools? Well we shall see.

[WI_DEM]

154. Dean will not challenge Obama, and if DK does he will come in third in Ohio again.

[Freddie Stubbs]

186. I think Kucinich is quite capable of coming in a distant second in Ohio

[WI_DEM]

155. What some of you people don't seem to grasp is that Obama is going to get more on health care that

progressives and liberals have been fighting 60 years for than Ted Kennedy ever did, Bill Clinton ever did or anybody else with or without the public option. I hope it includes it but I know if it isn't you all will blame Obama as if he can magically make it happen.

[Toasterlad]

158. I'm Voting for Kucinich Regardless.

There are many, many other areas besides healthcare where Obama has fallen short. I didn't expect him to be at all progressive, but I'm frankly shocked at how he's pissed all over the liberal base and kissed conservative ass since taking office. It would take a miracle to turn me around on Obama; a miracle I don't expect. He'll never get another vote from me again.

[joeybee12]

159. Well, even if he doesn't cave, I'm already looking for a primary option.....

...I don't expect that person to win, but the more pressure on Obama then he might actually do something right.

[Blasphemer]

163. Eh... the GOP will have Congress in 2012.. hardly matters... nt

[Vidar]

164. In that case, either of them would be preferable to me.

[earth mom]

167. Gore with Kucinich or RFK Jr as VP. nt

[Becky72]

168. They are both great! Include an "undecided" option n/t

[flvegan]

169. Hey mom, lookit me!!! I'm postin' in a thread! w00t!!!

[tjwash]

172. ...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

170. Do You Know How Hard It Is To Mount A Serious Primary Challenge To An Incumbent President

Not gonna happen.

[Raine]

171. I want OBAMA

I can't even respond to this stupid poll cause you left him out ... plenty of us still want OBAMA!

[DevonRex]

Apparently we are in the minority here.

[EndElectoral]

176. I'd prefer Kuccinich, but Dean would certainly be better than Obama - less of a centrist

[Common Sense Party]

193. Which means he'd be unlikely to be elected by the general public.

Fuss and fume all you want, but the reality is that the general public tend to prefer centrists.

[BlooInBloo]

189. lololol!

[WilliamPitt]

198. It's kinda magical.

[Thothmes]

191. Neither, my choice is current Secretary of State

Hillary Clinton

[Greyhound]

192. You can smell the fear here. n/t

[suzie]

234. What you smell is racism, pure and simple.

There are many who call themselves "liberal/leftist/progressive" who would rather have a white male in the presidency.

You see it day after day here on DU, but many of the folks complaining about Obama would never, ever admit to their blue state selves that they're simply as racist as your average redneck who lives somewhere in the awful, terrible SOUTH.

Thus, they have to couch it in all kinds of "progressive" terms and rave on about the poster boy of ineffective white male politicians, Dennis Kucinich.

[Greyhound]

235. LOL!

He's doing exactly what we predicted his green corporate ass would do over two years ago.

While there is surely a racial component with more than a few people, for the most part, he's just the latest example of the false choice of the evil of two lessers.

[suzie]

238. I wasn't around DU for the early part of the primary season.

However, good of you to admit that you don't oppose Obama here every day that goes by because you're a racist, but because you're still fighting the primaries.

So,you admit that you're just a sore loser. I like that kind of honesty.

[Greyhound]

239. We all lost a very long time ago.

Just some of you keep pretending that you matter.

[suzie]

243. Then why are you here taking up space and whining about Obama everyday?

I think the purpose of this site is to support and elect Democrats, so why are you here?

To remind us that we don't matter?

And better the choice of Obama than the terrifying choice that would be between Dennis Kucinich and a Republican. That wouldn't even be the choice of the lesser of two evils, because an untrustworthy candidate is more terrifying than anything else. And Kucinich's record has shown him to be among the most untrustworthy in the Congress.

[TheWebHead]

194. where's neither

if they don't have the votes and don't have sufficient public support, get what you can instead of picking up the ball and going home like a crybaby. If DU or KO start thrashing around threatening a primary challenge to feed their own ideology and egos, they're only strengthening Obama from those on the political fringes. Why do you think Clinton, even w/ his personal issues, maintained relatively high popularity. He was disliked by the right for everything, and not liked much by the left for being "the greatest Republican president" for his propensity to shift to the middle and frequently angering the base.

A president who conformed to the DU wing of politics would never be re-elected and would drag his party in the political wilderness.

[WilliamPitt]

196. (facepalm)

[DevonRex]

197. It's been like this all day. DU doesn't support the Democratic President.

[WilliamPitt]

199. DU is not America.

[DevonRex]

201. And it may not be a place for Democrats who actually like the President, either.

Or any place that I want to be associated with much longer. I took a 2-month break a while back. Now, it's worse than before.

[quiet.american]

204. Hello! nt

[quiet.american]

202. Lol -- you rock, Will! nt

[HughMoran]

225. Do these people think we'll ever forget these posts?

Why do people burn bridges just because they're having a bad day?

[saltpoint]

211. Obama wins two terms.

[krawhitham]

216. I back the President

He is going to win the primary, neither Dean or Kucinich stand a chance. Why waste the effort and fracture the party

[wisteria]

219. None of the above. We have a good president and whatever happens happens for the best.

Gee, no one knows what the outcome is going to be and already we are talking 2012? Obama will have my vote because the view from the top level office is a lot bigger and more complex than the view from the bottom, where complicated issues are unrealistically whittled down into overtly simplistic points of view.

[donco6]

220. Pfft. They won't even dump REID, let alone Obama.

It'll never happen.

[bridgit]

229. I leave all the 'what ifs' to Chris Matthews ~

[Nikki Stone1]

241. I am hoping that he doesn't cave.

Still hoping Obama will do the right thing.