The "left" will scream and holler but in the end...

[kentuck]

they will support whatever plan the President and the Democrats come up with. They will not desert their Party. They are the base.

That is the gamble the White House is willing to take, in my opinion. They do not believe they will lose any "left" support, no matter what bill they come up with.

That is why the "public option" is no big deal. They want "insurance reform" - not healthcare reform. They are not willing to take the big step. They would rather nibble at the corners. That is the direction we are headed.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. Why change a plan that's always worked?

Repugs do it, too.

[BolivarianHero]

3. Yep...

Republicans never settle wedge issues in the reactionary right's favour, because once they content the bigots and wackos, they have nothing left to offer anyone.

[Le Taz Hot]

7. I'm sorry,

did you just infer that the left are "bigots and wackos?" Your hero is going to have a hard time getting re-elected without the left but good luck with that meme. Rahm would be proud.

[bobbolink]

59. Yup, calling names and dismissing unions is a real good way to win elections.

:wtf:

I'm with ya. :hi:

[BolivarianHero]

60. Wow...did you even read my post?

I was talking about religious reactionaries, birthers, White Supremacists, HMO shills, etc...

[redqueen]

16. It hasn't, though.

It's usually the case that the party in power loses seats in the midterms, but Clinton lost a huge number... and Dems lost power in states as well... I wouldn't be at all surprised to see history repeat in that respect.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

43. You're making my case.

[redqueen]

44. OK... what case is that?

What plan is it that you're talking about? A plan to ensure they get themselves voted out of power again?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

49. Yes.

Especially with all 3 branches, because then you're expected to do something. Losing control of one or more branches means never having to say you're sorry.

[redqueen]

56. Ah, well I disagree that "we" have control.

As you know, the corporatists are firmly entrenched in this party as well. Thankfully they haven't entirely taken it over... yet.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

57. You're making my point again.

[redqueen]

58. You're not making your point very clearly, then. (nt)

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

62. Try this: They've got you coming and going.

You're screwed.
The fix is in.
It's a con game.
A stitch in time saves nine.

[WeDidIt]

2. I'll call that bet

and raise a work to defeat any politician who votes in favor of or signs any health care reform bill without a strong public option.

[Epiphany4z]

4. i think skipping over the

public option will dishearten the left and while many wont vote repuke...I am guessing wallets won't open as easily to support dems and more than a few will sit out an election ..

[joeycola]

8. I think you hit it spot on.

[WeDidIt]

21. If there's no public option, I'll sit out 2010

[barbiegeek]

36. That is how we got stuck with REAGAN & BUSH (cause of Nader)

[mdmc]

37. Destroyer of the Universe

:eyes:

[SleeplessInAlabama]

48. At least you can't say that those of us who voted for Nader wasted that vote. nt

[bushisanidiot]

50. Did you know AWOL Bush picks his nose and it's what he found?

I have pictures if you want to see them.

[Me.]

55. We Got * Because The SC Sanctioned A Coup

and we got Raygun because too many dems voted for him. In neither case was a lack of voting the cause.

[Le Taz Hot]

5. That's a real big gamble.

Most of the people I know who voted for Obama in 2008 have vowed not to vote for him again. They're pissed about the bailouts they're pissed that we're STILL in Iraq and escalating in Afghanistan. They're pissed that all the wealth STILL migrating upward with NO relief to the poor and middle class. They're saying they'll vote third party and I'll probably be right there with him. At some point the Democratic Party needs to get a clue and realize the Progressives can make or break them and in 2012, they'll most likely break them.

[ddeclue]

6. Call... my money and time will be spent on true progressives

and on getting a progressive Senate candidate to primary against Bill Nelson in 2012 if that happens and against Barack Obama also... Dennis Kucinich still available?

[placton]

9. Time for a primary challenge?

Maybe signs of early work for a primary challenge to Mr. Obama in '12 may cause him to move from center right to center left? I won't support his candidacy based on what I have seen so far.

[AieinAristuein]

10. They are counting on progressives doing nothing about it

They figure progressives have no where else to go and just have to sit there and take it. No matter what they do..or don't do for that matter

[madfloridian]

11. I disagree with you on that.

I think we pulled together so hard in 08 to get a Democratic majority, and there was such excitement and enthusiasm....that I think we will feel betrayed.

I think few would actually vote Republican, but many would stay home who eagerly voted last year.

[kctim]

12. It's a gamble that is well worth it

and President Obama knows this.

Piss off the "left" and 3 out of 10 will throw a tantrum and sit out the next election. The remaining 7 will still vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what.
Piss off the moderates and 7 out of 10 will vote for the moderate Republican.
Lose 3 votes and have them float around in limbo, or lose 7 votes and have them placed in the other sides column?
Clinton learned this the hard way, luckily, President Obama is intelligent enough to learn from Clinton's mistake.

[kentuck]

15. What are you smoking??

7 out of 10 Democrats will not vote for a Republican under any circumstances.

[kctim]

27. The majority of Americans are moderates

and moderates will choose a moderate over a liberal or conservative IF they have pushed to hard. It happened under both Clinton and Bush. Why else do you think all those conservative Democrats were able to win in so many Republican areas? It sure as hell wasn't because they were pushing more govt programs down the throats of their voters.

[kentuck]

32. It was because Republicans sucked...

so bad that they would vote for an old yeller dog before they would vote for a Republican.

[kctim]

45. And being swept during Clinton was because?

[Kansas Wyatt]

63. Democrats failed to DELIVER Health Care Reform during Clinton.

It doesn't matter if the Republican was against it too, when the Democrats had the chance to make a difference, but sided with the Republicans, people felt betrayed and lied to. It became hard for people to see the difference between the Democrat and Republican, so they end up voting against those who betrayed.

Why do so many moderates WANT a Public Option, because it's not just the Progressives who are demanding it?

You don't think a lot of moderates will feel like they were only given Token Effort Chump Change, while the Insurance & Pharmaceutical Industries will be handed the Treasury, and get very pissed about it?

[paulk]

53. it's not 1994

younger voters are more liberal now than they were then and more of them vote. I don't think it's so much pissing off the "left" that the Dems should worry about - it's pissing off the 18-25 demographic. If these folks sit out 2010, then the Dems are in trouble.

[Echo In Light]

13. They don't care about the *actual* Left since there's no big $ coming from that direction

[fascisthunter]

14. oh, they will lose the left

or the majority of the left. They are delluded to think otherwise!

[still_one]

23. I agree. It would be an enormous blunder on their part, and a lot of people will sit home

or go for a third party if the Democrats in Congress let them down on healthcare

If it gets to the point where the "talk" is different, but the results are the same, whether Democratic or republican, then there is not much choice, especially for the most important issue of our time, healthcare

[fascisthunter]

26. I Was at a Vigil Last Night for Healthcare Reform and this topic came up

Just about everybody there were in agreement to not vote if a strong Public Option was not in this Bill.

[still_one]

28. That is exactly what I would expect. It is a principled stand /nt

[laughingliberal]

17. They may or may not think that

I believe they are dangerously mistaken if they do think that. I'm worn down with the years of fighting to see progressive change in this country and I will stay home. I wrote to President Obama a few weeks ago and told him that dumping the public option is the quickest way to suppress the base for the 2010 elections. Democratic victory always depends on voter turnout. Suppressing any of the base will result in electoral disaster.

[Mystayya]

18. They will lose mine

I don't think I am alone in that. This is my line in the sand.

[Winterblues]

19. I feel exactly the same way.

At this point I don't care any longer. If Democrats won't behave like Democrats then :shrug: it doesn't matter if republicans are in charge or not. The exact same things will happen. Corporate greed and war...unchecked..

[kath]

22. My line in the sand too. And, yes, if Democrats won't behave like Democrats there is no point in

voting for them.
I. Have. Had. ENOUGH.

[WeDidIt]

24. It's actually BETTER if Republcians take over again

Think of how bad it had to get for us to be able to get the Democrats a filibuster proof majority.

Then the fucks wouldn't even use it.

So think of how bad it has to get before they'll use the majority we give them after it gets so bad.

[BR_Parkway]

40. Exactly - why bother if none of the issues we want ever get taken care of

Sure, it's only been 8 months and there were big crisis to handle (which I'm 50/50 on if I like how they got handled). But there are big votes coming up and they are going to make my decision for me.

But we're already hearing that "gay rights? yeah, that's gonna be too close to the election to deal with this year.." http://gay.americablog.com/2009/09/senate-dems-think-next-year-is-bad-time.html & http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/9/3/775959/-Senate-Is-Too-Busy-Doing-Nothing-To-Address-dont-ask,-dont-tell which to the GLBT community is just another stanza in the same old song we've heard too many times before.

Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan? Still there, seems to be escalating. Not so much change there.

Healthcare? I'm actually one who thinks it should be single payer, somehow phased in so that health insurance employees aren't dumped unto unemployment and the average Joe who's got those stocks in his 401K isn't left holding a bag of worthless paper. There's a ton of great reasons to open Medicare for All up right now - but those 2 are the ones that give me pause enough to say we've got to get there, but can't start right there.

I'm sorry - but we didn't bust our asses giving them all those seats just to hear them keep saying that they can't get the freaking platforms we voted for passed. Either they're too beholden to the lobbyists, which is a good reason to quit voting for them or they simply can't govern after all - another good reason to take my votes elsewhere.

We'll have to see how it shakes out - but if they can't get substantial amounts done, then I am through with them.

[still_one]

20. Then they will lose. Weiner, Feingold, and others have stated they will NOT vote for a bill

without a public option

Unlike the blue dogs, and some moderates, the progressives in Congress have standards and principles

[alcibiades_mystery]

25. Bookmarking

[Individualist]

29. Disagree

The left understands that insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results each time.

[KG]

30. the stranglehold of the 2-party system is choking this country to death.

[Mystayya]

33. What is that symbol with the hammers?

[jonnyblitz]

34. i think it's from Pink Floyd's "the wall" movie though I am not

100% certain. Hopefully my friend, KG, will be around to verify if i am correct or not...

[KG]

35. you are correct, my old friend.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

31. Well, this "lefty" ---

has already decided to change her party affiliation (after 30 years) to Independent if the Dems can't get this together. :shrug:

If the American voters give the House, the Senate, and the Presidency to the Dems with a MANDATE to reform healthcare in a big way, as campaigned on, and you fail yo do that? You are not a party worth being affiliated with anymore.

And I will mail a copy of my new registration and the reasoning behind it to every one of the Dem big whigs, including O himself.

[still_one]

38. Boy do I identify with you /nt

[Hell Hath No Fury]

39. It's a sad place to be --

:(

[beaglelover]

41. I'm with you as well. n/t

[Hidden Stillness]

42. "Cheering Everything Obama Does" is Killing Democracy

I think that a lot of people who grew up from the 1980s on, have no idea what it is like to live in a society not controlled by corporate interests and media, and no idea what it is like to even think something other than a "corporate-framed" thought on public issues. Their only example of a Democratic President until now, has been Bill Clinton, a corporate operative who actually killed the real rank-and-file-membership Democratic Party. They get messages that "sticking to the talking-point line" and "framing issues" is good, when it is really the death of participitory democracy. Everything is image and illusion, winning, demographics, polls, no dissent, going to rallies only to cheer. I don't think these people have a clue as to what it is to be a citizen, and why you are SUPPOSED to criticize your President.

There are many stories about Franklin Roosevelt meeting with angry citizens, and telling them, when they tried to fight for a bill or program, to "make me do it." This was not a challenge, but an invitation, because Roosevelt knew that the only way truly radical change is going to pass is if there is a big uprising about it, pressure, and that it is not popular to oppose it. People sometimes think that Roosevelt "had to" do many of the best, most liberal things because of "oppostion" from left-wing Democrats, unions, Socialists, etc., but that does not explain why Roosevelt already had several of the programs that would become parts of the New Deal--unemployment insurance, public works, etc.--already as Governor of New York, and already hired the great Francis Perkins as the head of the State's Industrial Commission, in charge of regulations for labor and consumers. Only public pressure gets things done, when they are against corporate interests.

Yet you have the opinion, among many of the "internet left," that we must never criticize Obama because that plays into the hands of Republicans and media; an overly-strategized "consultant" attitude. There is a thread on DU right now, about how Obama has "saved" the economy (that is, Wall Street)--when the unemployment rate in Michigan, similar to most of the Midwest was just revised upward by the State's Department of Energy, Labor and Economic Growth, to 22.8%! That is horrible, and no one refers to it, because that would be "not nice."

Cheering eternally accomplishes nothing--increasing unemployment, a bizarre "auto task force" that killed hundreds of auto dealers (not even part of the manufacturers' debt) and killed all injury lawsuits pending, then killed the only program that has worked, the "Cash for Clunkers"; now secret deals with pharmaceutical and insurance corporations, and offering to dump or weaken a public health program, several times; no prosecutions of Bush officials for anything; a commercial-telecom-conducted spying program on Americans, that continues; on and on. Yet over and over, people on DU have posted threads, as when Obama shocked millions of people by appointing Rahm Emanuel as Chief of Staff, "Were We Wrong? Is Emanuel Not So Bad After All?" Then the Wall St. deregulators Geithner, the snuck-back-in executive bonuses; Summers; Obama fighting off public opinion against Geithner, telling us all that Geithner is staying no matter what we all want; and suddenly this is all "great" too. It is like the movie "Gaslight," where the victim is being driven insane, made to accept more and more outrageous lies, presented as truth--but now, it is being done to you, and you don't respond.

Some people seem to think that political Parties are like fan clubs, and you must never boo, only cheer and smile; you have no clue as to what it is to be a citizen, and how democracy works. They are public servants, they are supposed to do what we tell them to do!

The larger is is not what "the left" will do--although the overwhelming majority is "left" on the health care issue--but what the general population will do, if Obama, Emanuel (who tried to help Bush commercialize Social Security and put it on the stock market a few years ago), Joe "Bankruptcy Bill" Biden, and the rest of them, violate what the majority of people have clearly indicated they want, now; an end to the oppression of the medical and insurance industries...that pay Obama's campaign costs.

[earth mom]

47. The fan club here on DU doesn't give a damn about anything except playing sides.

They watch WAY too much t.v. and are hyper aware of every little thing the freepers and teabaggers do. It rules their world and all they accomplish is bitching non stop about it instead DOING something about the REAL problems we all face.

If more people around here turned CNN, MSNBC and FAUX NOISE off maybe we'd see some rational and constructive thought. But as it stands now, it's all a clusterfuck.

[Jennicut]

51. I barely watch tv news, its a waste. Once again labeling people into two groups

against Obama or not is a not so nuanced Rethug-like view.
There are some things Obama has done I like and there are some things he has done to piss me off. Its not so black and white.

[laughingliberal]

52. I have always been a political junkie

But the reason was that I thought winning elections for Democrats would result in better policies for the working class. Have been severely disillusioned, now.

[librechik]

46. they will lose us gradually by attrition, then--as we suffer from lack of healthcare

and the stripping of our civil rights.

[WI_DEM]

54. First, I want a public option, but second, Obama still will make great strides in

health care reform in things that liberals have called for than any other president with or without the public option. Things that Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton never could deliver, but still without the public option it will be a flawed bill.

[MadHound]

61. I'll call that bet,

And I'll walk away from the party with no regrets. I've felt increasingly alienated from the party for the last thirty years, and if a Congress with large Democratic majorities, along with a Democratic president with enormous political capital can't or won't pass meaningful health care reform, I'm done. I'll go Green and won't look back. I've been the "good soldier" for years and decades and frankly being a "good soldier" means that the country has gotten worse, not better. No more, not for me.