PETA to Salt Lake City: Ban Cruel, Dangerous Horse-Drawn Carriages

[The Straight Story]

Salt Lake City -- PETA has sent an urgent letter to Salt Lake City Mayor Ralph Becker and the City Council calling on them to implement a ban on horse-drawn carriages. PETA sent the letter after receiving eyewitness accounts of an August 29 incident in which a spooked horse who was pulling a carriage with seven passengers fled down Main Street in the city's downtown historic district. The horse struck a parked car, and the driver and an assisting police officer were injured.

"This incident should serve notice to the people of Salt Lake City that forcing horses to pull heavy loads through busy city streets is cruel and is an accident waiting to happen," says PETA Director Debbie Leahy. "The only way to ensure the safety of passengers, motorists, and horses is to ban horse-drawn carriages, so we're calling on the mayor and the City Council to act to prevent future tragedies."

In the letter, PETA points out that similar incidents have occurred before in Salt Lake City and in nearly every city in which horse-drawn carriages are still permitted to operate. These accidents often cause serious injuries and fatalities to horses, motorists, onlookers, carriage operators, and riders. A growing number of cities have implemented bans on horse-drawn carriages.

http://www.peta.org/mc/NewsItem.asp?id=13520

[ixion]

1. PETA continues to make an ass of themselves

:eyes:

[truebrit71]

5. Actually I believe that would be a "Horse's Ass" of themselves...

...but I could be wrong...

[Dora]

2. I agree, horse-drawn carriages have no place in an urban motorized environment.

They're a hazard - no two ways about it.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. There has been one incident that I can recall in the 30+ years this has been going on.

[Dora]

8. LOL, thanks for the reply, but what you can or cannot recall is not relevant.

I'm not an animal rights activist. I think that horse-drawn carriages for tourists and special events are a hazard and should not be sharing the road with cars, buses, bikes, and pedestrians.

Quaint? Yes. Of historical value? Yes. Makes money for somebody? Yes.

Safe when sharing a crowded urban roadway with motorized vehicles and unpredictable pedestrians? No.

[Drunken Irishman]

9. You're welcome and it is relevant.

It doesn't happen.

I say I recall, because maybe an invent happened 10 years ago I don't remember about. But I can emphatically say it has not happened at all the last decade.

So let 'em continue.

They're obviously safer than most transit options (we have far more light-rail accidents...).

But I guess maybe we should do away with light-rail as well.

:D

Got it!

[Dora]

10. Your memory is YOUR memory. It's not a repository of facts.

Your memory is limited, and biased because it's yours. Nice slip, btw - using "invent" instead of "event."

We're not discussing light rail or public transportation. We're talking about whether horse-drawn carriages belong in an urban environment. I say no - I"m not an expert, I'm not an animal rights advocate, I'm not particularly pro-car, but I am particularly keen on public safety.

Show me evidence that there have NOT been any horse drawn carriage accidents - I doubt that you can. Whereas my simple googling in the meantime has shown me that there have indeed been an ample number of incidents and accidents involving horse-drawn carriages.

You've made a baseless and unviable assertion, and it's funny to see you defend it as fact. Do go on.

Or not.

[provis99]

12. well cars are highly dangerous to people, pets, AND horses.

maybe we should ban them before we ban horses on the road, according to your logic.

[Dora]

15. Yes, cars are dangerous. That's why we drive them on clearly marked roads.

Oh, please. My logic leads to no such conclusion.

Cars drive on roadways that have been engineered for their use.

People walk on sidewalks or on the side of the road, and are expected to use crosswalks when they're available, and cross safely when they're not.

People, pets, and wild animals that get into the road run the risk of being injured or killed. That's why we fence our animals and teach our children to "stay out of the street."

[el_bryanto]

14. OK - do you have statistical evidence that horse drawn carriages are getting in accidents

regularly?

Bryant

[Dora]

16. Of course not. It's entirely anecdotal, but that sure beats one person's "memory."

Here's a page that lists articles about horse-drawn carriage accidents. Caveat: It's from an animal-rights site.
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/act-c-shdc-acc.html

That page was the first to come up when I googled "horse-drawn carriage accident"
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=horse-drawn%20carriage%20accident&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


Do you have "statistical evidence" that horse drawn carriages are NOT getting in accidents? So far, my anecdotal evidence clearly trumps someone else's memory-based assertion.

[Drunken Irishman]

17. Thanks for the reply.

But I don't need to show you evidence. I live here, you don't.

Just as I don't need to show you evidence there hasn't been a shooting on my street in the last 30 years.

If I told you that, would you believe me? Or would you only believe me if I somehow PROVED to you that there hadn't been a shooting on my street in that time frame?

Exactly.

I see the news. I read the paper. This was splashed across the television and newspapers here and if that had been a reoccurring event, it most certainly would've been the subject of stories over the years.

But I've not heard ANYTHING about this happening in Salt Lake prior to these events.

Now maybe that isn't proof enough for you, which I'm sorry, but it is for me.

In fact, a Google search of the terms that would most certainly bring up results of any known accident here doesn't.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="horse+carriage"+"salt+lake+city"+"accident"&start=20&sa=N
">The Google Results and if the link doesn't work, Google "horse+carriage" "+salt lake city" accident".

Well at least outside of what happened this week.

But let me guess, that isn't proof enough for you?

So no, my assertion isn't baseless.

I'll expect an apology.

[Dora]

18. Don't hold your breath. :)

Ah, I understand better now. You were speaking for your community - you're a resident of SLC. That wasn't clear in your first reply.

My reply was in the context of thinking of horse-drawn carriages in any urban environment - not specifically YOURS.

Your ire is noted, however my opinion is unchanged. They're a hazard, and it belies common sense to allow them on city streets.

[Drunken Irishman]

19. Well maybe we need to look into this broader.

I do think we've had hardly any issues here in Salt Lake and certainly not like what we saw this week.

It is a risk and maybe the risk isn't worth it.

Of course, Salt Lake also has very broad streets and I'm sure that helps. Other cities aren't as lucky (or are, depending on your opinion). It's easy for the carriages to share the road with bikers and cars because of that.

[GentryDixon]

26. I guess the Trib is keeping this incident under wraps.

If it happened, I didn't read, nor hear about it in the media.

PETA needs to spend their time in Charleston, SC where the horses are pulling tourists around in 90+ heat.

[yellowcanine]

20. "Show me evidence that there have NOT been any horse drawn carriage accidents"

Err - it does not work that way. First of all, the burden of proof is on those wanting to ban a particular activity to demonstrate that it is unsafe - and citing examples of accidents willynilly will not be proof - what you need to show is that a horse drawn carriage is more likely to be involved in an accident with a bus or car than say - a bicycle is. That is a fair comparison. Then you may have something. Even so, there may be merit to limiting where the carriages can go - all urban environments are not equally dangerous for horse drawn carriages. There are many regulatory steps which can/should be taken short of an outright ban that could likely solve the problem, such as limiting which streets can be traversed, limits on numbers of passengers, training requirements for drivers, required inspections of horses and carriages. There are some horses that can do fine around vehicles - others not. Go ask the Amish. And as for urban vs. rural, I would rather be in a horse drawn carriage in a city where the speed limit is 25 mph than in an Amish buggy on a rural Lancaster County road where the speed limit is 55 mph. Nothing is without all risk, including riding in a horse drawn carriage where there are no other vehicles. People did have accidents with carriages before there were cars, after all.

[HillbillyBob]

4. I drove in South Florida for 20 years. There were the occasional

horse drawn carriage. It was the idiot tourists who were the biggest problem on the streets, maybe they should be banned. The horses knew the street a lot better than the tourists.
I used to have a tad of respect but PETA has shown they are a bunch of whackos.
Oh and I and my partner do rescue animals, but peta takes all this shit way to far.

[zonkers]

11. I think pavement is very rough on their hooves.

[yellowcanine]

25. That is why they have shoes and pavement is not as bad as gravel or even packed dirt with the

occasional stone.

[LynneSin]

31. So what about the Amish. They may not live downtown urban areas...

but I would think the traffic is way worse than in Lancaster county than say downtown Philadelphia where they have Carriage rides around Independance Park. I mean when I drive downtown Philadelphia I rarely am driving faster than the horses but with Lancaster County, that's an outlet shopping Mecca that has Amish buggies everywhere.

[yellowcanine]

33. Yep. 55 + mph for the cars vs 10 mph for the horse in Lancaster County.

And in the city - maybe 25 mph or less vs 10 mph

[Libertas1776]

6. Imagine

if PETA had been around in 1900 and every year before. Why their heads would explode.

[Botany]

7. Hey PETA

You guys are a joke.


I am not for mistreatment of animals but working animals like to work.

[ronnykmarshall]

13. So when are they going after amish people?

[yellowcanine]

22. Yep, and the speed limit there is probably 55 mph, not 25 mph.

Unfortunately they DO have accidents - mostly speeding cars rear ending buggies at night.

[LynneSin]

29. Oh I regularly drive thru Amish Country

and trust me, 55 is pretty slow for some of us as we weave in and around the Amish. Last time was a sunday afternoon when all the Amish kids were out that day going somewhere. I think on RT896 southbound I passed over 100 Amish Buggies in a 20 mile stretch.

[Beaverhausen]

21. I feel so bad for those horses. They look so tired and bedraggled

and standing/walking on pavement for hours is NOT what horses should be doing.

Good for PETA!

[yellowcanine]

23. Balderdash. If a healthy horse is properly watered, fed and rested they are entirely capable of

standing or walking on pavement for hours. A carriage owner who does not care for the horse properly would not be in business for long. What are the symptoms of a tired horse that you are observing?

[Beaverhausen]

24. head hanging, constantly lifting up one, then the another leg...

It's not that hard to see the horses used for this purpose aren't the most healthy.

http://www.hsus.org/horses_equines/news/new_york_carriage_horses.html



And I used to live near the Amish in Lancaster. One gets used to seeing them on the road and most people respect that this is their means of transportation. There are accidents with them, however.

[yellowcanine]

28. Head hanging and leg lifting are not signs of a tired horse.

Some carriage owners will prevent head hanging by use of check reins - most animal rights people oppose the use of check reins. A horse hangs its head because that is the most comfortable way for it to stand. Actually they will cat nap (or horse nap) this way. They are not tired - merely taking advantage of the "down time". As for leg lifting - have you ever watched people standing? They do the same thing. It is called shifting your weight. It is a natural thing a body does to keep the circulation going.

I should add that a horse with an extremely low hanging head is a sign of a starving horse with poor condition. But you are not likely to see a carriage horse that is starving. It would not last more than a day or two in that condition.

[Arkana]

27. OK, that's it.

I'm having steak for dinner tonight.

[yellowcanine]

30. Horse steak or beef steak?

[Arkana]

32. Both.

Then I'll wash them down with a nice live infant.