I think Scotland did an acceptable thing. You may now come and kick my ass.

[Stinky The Clown]

Yes, it is easy for me to not feel the same outrage as survivors of the Lockerbie terrorist action. It is all abstract to me.

Yes, they guy that did it (if he did it) is lower and nastier than whale smegma.

Yes, this whole episode may be the UK pandering for oil. But the record is clear. Scotland has done this 23 out of 27 times it has been requested (or something very close to that).

Compassion is, to me, a liberal value. And I'm a liberal.

I am not saying anyone is wrong to feel otherwise. To feel outrage. This is a near dichotomy, this freeing of a terrorist for no better reason than human compassion.

I never liked the biblical quote "vengeance is mine sayeth the lord".

I'm a sap. Kick my ass if you must.

[mdmc]

1. compassion uber alles

:toast:

[stray cat]

2. Would you feel the same if we let every terminally ill person out of jail regardless of crimes

I don't know - I have mixed feelings but I'm sure if the person had murdered or molested someone I cared for I would feel offended.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. I would.

With exceptions if the convict had a high risk to reoffend.

I mean it's not like he's going to bomb another jetliner.

[Peregrine Took]

36. Me, too. Seventy times seven. n/t

[donheld]

87. Indeed

[brooklynite]

117. And where do you draw the line?

One week? Two? A month? Three months? Six?

I don't support the Death Penalty, but I do support the administration of Justice without vengeance coming into the picture. He was fairly tried and convicted of participating in a crime involving mass murder, and was sentenced to Life in prison. I have no problem with keeping that sentence imposed, notwithstanding medical conditions.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. Dichotomy

[Mystayya]

107. If they were within weeks of dying and had a family to go to.

And also if they were sick enough not to be a threat to society anymore. It's easier to say "no- make them suffer, suffer, suffer" but in the end that makes us just as bad.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Agreed n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. I agree, and it is their justice system

to me it tells me more about their society at this moment, and ours.

By the way, vengeance is mine is the God of Deutoromy. by the time of the end of judges and Kings, he was starting to become a sap... and by the end of the old testament with prophets he WAS a sap.

Then of course there is the new one.

Turn your other cheek...

:-)

Damn that is what happens when you actually read the whole thing....

:hi:

Hell, I have to again... in the new context I have learned of recently.

[Warpy]

6. Scotland is a very irreligious country

and I think that has a lot to do with their compassion. People there don't have to step in for a god who's falling down on the job of retribution.

The guy is going home to die. He's not going to be in any shape to be a threat.

Don't forget, it was also compassion to his family, not just to him.

Remember, we do the right thing because of who we are, not because of who they are or used to be.

[Canuckistanian]

21. I'm sure there are those who would disagree with your observations

But not me.

And I come from roots deep in Perthshire and Glasgow.

[Rambis]

113. Tell that to the Rangers and Celtic fans (nm)

x

[cwydro]

7. Would you feel the same about the 9/11 terrorists?

You don't think these people should be punished to the fullest extent of the law?

I cannot even imagine where your head is. I hope you never lose someone in a horrific crime, because your "compassionate" sentiments are in for a rude awakening.

Imagine being in a quiet Scottish village and having body parts rain out of the sky on to your town, killing your neighbors and families. Imagine getting on a plane and getting off at 28,000 feet as the plane explodes in a fireball.

Oh forget it.

[Moochy]

15. Yeah that poster is not outraged enough

How else can we judge the size of that poster's E-Peen?

[scarletwoman]

24. Imagine being in a quiet Afghan village, and a missile fired from a remote controlled drone

suddenly explodes your family's home all to pieces, killing all your relatives.

Terror is as terror does.

There are plenty of unanswered questions and unproven assertions about Pan Am 103. One scapegoat getting out of jail does not change the balance of power in the world -- the greedy power-mad warmongering assholes are still in control.

sw

[cwydro]

Point.

Missed.

Good luck with that.

Hope you never lose a family member in a terrorist attack.

[scarletwoman]

68. Define "terrorist attack".

You seem to think that terrorism depends on WHO does it, rather than WHAT it does to its victims.

If the USAF drops a 2 thousand pound bomb on your village are you any less TERRORIZED than if the bomb came from an Islamic extremist?

And seeing as how I live in the U.S., my chances of me or my family being victims of terrorism -- aside from our homegrown right wing fanatics -- is essentially nil.

Which is in great contrast to those unlucky citizens of third world countries who are far more likely to fall victim to U.S. militarist/corporatist foreign policy, whoever the actual agent of any particular act of violence may be.

sw

[Bluerthanblue]

76. how do you know she hasn't? And what difference does that make?

there are many people who have lost loved ones in tragic, terrifing, terrible ways-

Revenge doesn't bring them back, or keep it from happening to anyone else.

I say this from personal experience.
Don't think that you are the only one to know the outrage that comes with such a loss, because you are not.
You are entitled to your feelings- and have every right to voice them, but so do we who have chosen a different response to tragedy than you have.

I DO wish you peace, comfort and healing.

[AuntPatsy]

55. You beat me to it , thought provoking post for those that are able to associate...

[scarletwoman]

70. Thank you. (nt)

[pipi_k]

106. Just wondering...

You keep telling people that they're basically wrong for thinking compassion is at least admirable in a civilized society. You keep telling people they'd feel differently if it were their own loved ones who were murdered in such a terrible way.

So I'm wondering...are you perhaps speaking from experience here?

Have you ever experienced the horror of having someone close to you murdered? Is that why you seem to be so against the concept of compassion?

[marmar]

8. No ass-kicking from me.....just agreement.

:thumbsup:

[G_j]

9. I don't feel in a position to judge Scotland on this

as America's justice system, may well be the cruelest in the 'civilized' world.

If they say this is based on compassion, I'll accept that.

[Enrique]

11. Compassion probably wasn't the real reason

we need to know what the deal was.

[Stinky The Clown]

16. The record is pretty clear .... this is not the first time and their record is ovrwhelmingly .......

..... on the side of compassion.

The only statement that can be made in the aspect you cite is that there is no evidence of it being true.

Yet.

[Enrique]

22. but none of the others killed 250 people

seems like this guy would be one of the four out of 27 who doesn't get out.

[Bluerthanblue]

78. does the life of a person killed by a person matter any less-

if they were the killer's only victim?

Would the tragedy of 9/11 have mattered any less if only 1000 people had died?

How about if only 10 had died?

:shrug:

I don't understand this thinking, and never will.

[EFerrari]

93. See Catwoman's #60. The man's guilt was not transparent at all. n/t

[scheming daemons]

12. 250 innocent people died. And this guy has shown not a SHRED of remorse

It might be a little different if he renounced what he did.


But he didn't.


He would have no qualms with doing it again.


So he's dying. SO THE FUCK WHAT!


I hope his death is slow... and very painful.

[cwydro]

18. I don't think he is dying.

Watch the news in the next year. This guy went home to a hero's welcome in Libya and will live out his natural life.

I would bet on it.

[enlightenment]

31. The Scottish government offered sufficient proof to the US government

to assure the US that the man is, indeed, dying.

[CatWoman]

60. check this out

did a little digging and look what I found?

“” al-Megrahi’s release was conditioned upon his having dropped an appeal of his conviction, an appeal that his family could have continued on his behalf after his death; he has maintained his innocence all along and the family could well want to clear his name posthumously. And it seems like there was good reason for his appeal: The key piece of evidence against him, testimony that he bought the shirt the bomb had been wrapped in, may well be contradicted by evidence that was not presented at his trial, leading the appeals commission that ordered the new trial to say “there is no reasonable basis” to believe it was his shirt at all.

In other words: He may well have been the wrong guy.

By letting him go home to die as a convicted but humanely released man, Scottish authorities can bury any mistakes and pretend that they got justice, rather than face the embarrassing prospect of a re-trial that could show just how badly they screwed up.”"

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2009/08/20/lockerbie-terrorist-should-be-locked-up-until-death/#comment-98515

[G_j]

64. sounds like reasonable doubt

to me

[texastoast]

71. Ohh. They Leonard Peltiered him

I just hate those attorneys who suppress evidence of any kind. Let the light shine.

[scarletwoman]

81. Thank you! This is a very relevant point.

Yeah, better for the PTB to let the man go than go through the embarrassment of having his conviction looked at more closely when all the holes in the case might be more starkly illuminated.

[EFerrari]

89. Thank you. n/t

[Richard Steele]

97. Indeed.nm

[jasi2006]

13. I'm not sure this guy is guilty of the nasty deed. He was convicted

but there are just too many loose ends. As I recall, there was seething calls to find someone guilty. This guy was, maybe, the sacrificial lamb. Check out all the details, I really feel badly for all the families and loved ones of the victims.
Flame suit on.

[jasi2006]

14. I'm not sure this guy is guilty of the nasty deed. He was convicted

but there are just too many loose ends. As I recall, there was seething calls to find someone guilty. This guy was, maybe, the sacrificial lamb. Check out all the details, I really feel badly for all the families and loved ones of the victims.
Flame suit on.

[Thickasabrick]

17. I agree - I think if he had done it - he would have admitted it by now. nt

[NYC_SKP]

19. I'm cool with that.

It's the dirty deals our government has done with Libya and others that needs to be prosecuted.

This dude?

Has cancer, not the primary player, not long to live, OK by me.

[Curtland1015]

20. Certainly you have the right to feel that.

I see your point of view completely, and it really is an amazing thing that the government let this man free to be with his family in his dying days.

That said, what has this man done to deserve compassion? What has he done to deserve ANYTHING? It's all well and good to oppose "vengeance", but there surely has to be a line between vengeance and justice. This man knew fully well what he was doing when he murdered hundreds of people.

Compassion is important. Being more enlightened than those that wrong is certainly is as well. But just like anything in life, there has to be a balance.

Again, I'm not judging you on your opinion. It shows a great deal of heart. But on a personal level, I disagree with Scotland's decision. In my opinion, this man deserves no acts of kindness.

[Stinky The Clown]

27. As someone said upthread, campassion says more about the compassionate person than the .....

recipient of the compassion.

[Curtland1015]

32. Oh, I understand that.

But I still don't agree with the decision.

But as I've heard so many times in the past: "It's not you, it's me."

I give you a lot of credit for feeling he deserves freedom in his dying days. I just can't find it in my own heart to agree.

[Bluerthanblue]

85. something to consider-

you ask about what this man deserves. I understand that- but if you only treat people the 'right' way when you believe they 'deserve' it, aren't you basing what is "right" not on principal, but on personality? If you wait, or demand that someone perform a certain way in order to treat them with compassion or refuse to attempt to view the situation from the other person's place, then aren't we doomed to stay stuck in this never ending rut?

When we are reminded that 'we' must be the change- or that 'we' must choose a better path, is that conditional?

There is so much anger, suffering and pain in this world already- if you have a choice to say "enough"- regardless of the "worthiness" of the person you are sparing, or showing compassion to- isn't it a step towards a more positive world to choose compassion?

not pointing fingers or meaning to preach, just asking some of the questions that have caused me to rethink my own perspectives.

peace~

[pipi_k]

110. Well one thing I have to say is...

at least you're being respectful in your disagreement.

I never begrudge a person's right to disagree...reasonable people can, and do, disagree...

But some of them are rather...disagreeable...about it.


A big Kudos from me, at least, for disagreeing in a civilized manner.

:)

[JuniperLea]

23. He went home to a hero's welcome and no doubt empowered others...

To pull crap like this.

The compassionate thing to do would be to keep him in prison. Letting him out is a slap in the face to those who lost loved ones on that flight. You may not know empathy; I do.

That he is free to empower others, to be made some sort of hero, is just sick. Pathetic and sick.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. Do you think I'm dancing a jig?

[scheming daemons]

34. Finding it "acceptable" is only smaller by a matter of degree... not direction

[JuniperLea]

72. No, you're not clever either... eom

[cwydro]

33. Thank you JuniperLea.

I was beginning to despair of finding thinking people on this subject.

[EFerrari]

57. He got a welcome because those people don't believe he was guilty.

And a lot of people on this side of the world don't either.

[aikoaiko]

25. He should die in prison.

And not be treated to a glorious homecoming.

[Chemisse]

26. If he had served like 30 years already

I would not object to this. But to only spend 8 years in prison when all the victims are gone forever and there was no compassion spared for them, just seems bizarre.

Plenty of people are sentenced to life in prison, and they die in prison. People live, then people die, and if you made a choice that plunks you in prison for life, you should expect to die there.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. "Compassion is the radicalism of our time." Dalai Lama K&R

[Chemisse]

38. There is a difference between compassion and plain weakness

If this guy really did it, he deserves to be treated with compassion within the prison system. I would not want to see him tortured or murdered.

But to be released and freed after you murdered 250 people can only be seen as a sign of weakness.

Now if he didn't do it, that is another story.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Compassion for a dying man is "weakness"? In what way?

I see it as strength. A belief that compassion is stronger than hatred.

[Chemisse]

58. It is a weakness politically

Theoretically, potential terrorists could surmise that committing a heinous crime in Scotland is not such a big deal.

Part of the purpose of a punishment is to deter others.

Libya's hero's welcome does exactly the opposite.

[Bluerthanblue]

83. people called MLKjr weak- and Gandhi as well, but

they were instrumental in bringing about positive change in the governments they struggled against.

You can't deter people who are committed to a cause with threats of punishment. I don't endorse terrorism in any way shape or form, but thinking you can stop it by punishing anyone left behind- is foolishness.

The guy is dying. The people who welcome him home believe him to be innocent. There are those who lost family in the incident who also doubt his involvment. No one can go back to before the explosion and alter any of the results. Scotland DID have the choice to alter the fact that this man was destined to die alone in a foreign country apart from his family (who are victims regardless of his guilt or innocence). They chose the path of mercy. If only more people would make that choice. And the only way we really lead is by example. Force, or the threat of punishment, hasn't worked very well to stop this madness seems to haunt humanity.

:shrug:

[Chemisse]

59. And I'm the one who is always arguing compassion for

Criminals released after they have done their time. I am definitely not a vengeful person. But 8 years for killing 250 people - that just doesn't seem right.

[Hosnon]

92. Our time?

Heh, right...I don't think humans in this time are any less compassionate than in any other.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. Ugh, can't believe it...

DUers getting bent out of shape because another country is less vengeful than ours.

In case you've forgotten, Scotland lost people that day, too.

[scarletwoman]

51. We're a nation of barbarians. It's no surprise that DUers espouse barbaric values.

At least, it ceased to surprise me many years ago.

[annabanana]

62. with YOU, Lydia.... . . . .n/t

[Joe Fields]

35. compassion is for those who deserve it. yours is an indefensible position.

[Stinky The Clown]

42. I admit it ......

... it is far easier to live in a black and white world.

[scarletwoman]

46. If you're a Buddhist, compassion is for all sentient beings.

There's no clause about "deserving it". Who judges who is "deserving"?

[Joe Fields]

69. I think in this case it's pretty obvious.

You're just plain fucking whacko, if you have compassion for this monster. What's next? You want to let Charles Manson out because he's "a harmless old man" now?

[scarletwoman]

74. I simply stated the Buddhist view of compassion. There are no exceptions.

Compassion is about who YOU are, not about to whom you extend compassion.

[Stinky The Clown]

77. Actually, Manson demonstrates every time he faces a parole board that he is unrepentent

[pipi_k]

82. Not only that, but I believe he's also said people should be very afraid of him

[Joe Fields]

119. alright, ladies, if that's the game you wish to play...

there are literally thousands, probably tens of thousands of inmates who are "repentant," who would just LOVE to be let out of prison for their violent crimes. What do you say we just let them all out?

:crazy:

[pipi_k]

120. Don't know whom you were addressing, but in case it was a reply to

what I wrote, I think you misunderstand.

I only meant to point out that not only is Charles Manson unrepentant, he's also stated clearly that it is better off for society for him to STAY in prison.

I agree with him. He may not ever kill anyone (and who knows whether he personally murdered anyone in his past) but he is still dangerous no matter how old he is.

He's been in prison so long he might not even want to be released anyway, even if someone thought it would be an act of compassion to let him go should he ever have a terminal disease.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

53. No. Compassion should be offered freely regardless of whether it is deserved.

Otherwise it's not really compassion.

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you."
—Luke 6:27-31

[G_j]

54. where did that gem come from?

we have another new twist on the meaning of compassion, I see.

[lukasahero]

109. I lost a friend on that plane

Did you?

Sarah Margaret Aicher - look her up.

I am in agreement with Stinky. Is my position indefensible?

Compassion is easy if it's only given to the 'deserving'.

[Texasgal]

37. Guess I am not a liberal then.

Take away my blue card.

It is a travesty of justice when a person who participates in mass killing all in the name of religion gets the "free card" .

Fuck that. I hope he rots to death!

[laughingliberal]

99. Oh, but he will

Terminal Prostate Cancer? Yeah, he's going to rot to death and be in agonizing pain in the meantime. (Sorry, former oncology nurse, here). Beyond that, I have no real opinion. It is consistent with the laws of Scotland which allow for compassionate release under certain circumstances. He met those circumstances. It is their country and their laws.

[Lint Head]

39. 250 innocent people did not get to live until their natural death.

There cold blooded killer gets to go home and die. This is not justice or moral.

[Bluerthanblue]

91. and not one single thing will ever change their fate. We have NO CHOICE

in altering what has happened to them. They are DEAD. This man is still alive. His family is suffering in his absence. We can't bring the loved ones back to the families who lost them on that terrible day over Lockerbie.
Still, There was a merciful choice that remained to be made, and Scotland chose to show compassion to a man convicted of being ruthless-, in his last days- not because he deserved it, but because it is the way humans SHOULD behave towards each other.

If we are going to always respond to acts of malice and selfishness and with malice and selfishness will never be free. We will be forever re-acting to others, and begin justifying doing terrible things to innocent people because we anticipate violence from others.
(Iraq)

And still, here we are.

Is the world a safer place now? Who will stop this cycle if not you or me?

When will we ever learn?

[TygrBright]

40. I think Scotland did a CIVILIZED thing.

But then, their society has pretty much left ours in the dust in re: civilization, ever since the post-WW II era.

With some amazing and amusing lapses, of course.

affirmatively,
Bright

[EFerrari]

44. Craig Ferguson.

lol

JK!

[TygrBright]

63. I did say "amazing"... n/t

[Ex Lurker]

86. I don't have compassion for murderers. Sorry.

the guy should have lived out his miserable existence in an 8x10 cell.

[HughMoran]

43. Their doubt about his innocence made them release him to die.

If that's too compassionate for anybody here, they you're no liberal or progressive, you're a single corpuscle right-winger.

[Chemisse]

61. If they doubted his guilt, he should not have been there in the first place

And they should not have released him early; they should have pardoned him.

[HughMoran]

65. The political nature of this would never have allowed a pardon

Just look at how Obama condemned this - it was entirely the politically correct thing to do.

[Chemisse]

66. If there is reasonable doubt about his guilt

Then my entire opinion about his release completely reverses.

[HughMoran]

67. The Scots have been conflicted over this decision since it was handed down

I personally have no idea of his guilt, but there is a LOT of speculation that this gesture was their "best compromise" based on their doubts.

[Chemisse]

102. In that context, this all makes sense and I can't fault them - nt

[Crooked Moon]

45. i stand with obama on this.

it's a mistake and should never have happened.

[tj2001]

47. The guy is practically dead. Who cares where he dies? Let Libya bear the expenses.

[Gregorian]

48. Nothing is ever what it appears to be.

He did not act alone. I have not followed the case, but sounds like it was flawed.

I'm with you. No amount of punishment will relieve the victims of their pain.

I do not believe in punitive systems. That doesn't mean I don't believe in punishment. But what is the purpose? Sometimes I think humans are the stupidest animal on the planet. We can focus, but we can't see the forest for the trees. How would the world be any better with this guy in a cell? How will it be any worse with him out?

Let's focus on equal justice. We get three strikes for some black kid who steals a battery. But we let the George Bush's of the world just run rampant over the whole planet. Pinochets get sentences just as they're hitting the casket.

There's more to justice than punishment.

[Bluerthanblue]

100. his family has the chance to say good-bye to him. He asked to

be transferred to a prison in Libya. I also understand he was awaiting appeal, but the Scottish Govt. didn't believe he'd live long enough so he had to drop the appeal in order to be given compassionate release. He has continually denied any responsibility for the bombing- AND expressed sorrow for the victims (unlike many other "terrorists") and contrary to several claims on DU.

...."In a statement following his release, al-Megrahi stood by his insistence that he was wrongfully convicted.

"I say in the clearest possible terms, which I hope every person in every land will hear - all of this I have had to endure for something that I did not do," he said.

He also said he believed the truth behind the Lockerbie bombing may now never be known.

"I had most to gain and nothing to lose about the whole truth coming out - until my diagnosis of cancer," he said, referring to an appeal that he dropped in order to be freed. "To those victims' relatives who can bear to hear me say this, they continue to have my sincere sympathy for the unimaginable loss that they have suffered."

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2009/08/20/10527741-ap.html

sometimes all is not known- and that which is known makes very little sense.

[Berry Cool]

49. Guilty or not, his homeland considers him a hero

and is treating him as such.

That's what hurts the most. And must hurt in a way I cannot even imagine for those who lost someone in that attack.

[Bluerthanblue]

108. no they are NOT- they are treating him like a citizen from their

Nation, who is returning home from a foreign land where he was found guilty and imprisoned for a crime they do not believe him to be guilty of. They are welcoming him home to DIE you fool.

Imagine how the families of the victims of Iranian flight 655 shot down by mistake by the USS Vincennes felt when the Captain and crew of the ship returned home and received medals for their service. The US expressed regret over "the loss of human lives" (it was a civilian flight, an Airbus w/290 passengers and crew) but we have NEVER apologized, or admitted wrongdoing. We did decide to pay reparations in 1996 to settle a suit brought against us in The International Court of Justice.

I'm amazed at how quickly some people jump to judgment based on nothing other than their emotions, and a few snippets on their television screens- and profoundly saddened.

We, as Americans should be better than this, with all our posturing and pontificating- there is no excuse for such willful ignorance, or blatant hypocrisy and deception.

[-..__...]

50. The problem with Scotland...

is that it's full of Scots.

[Bluenorthwest]

52. I'm fine with it, although I do think there are far better avenues for

expressing compassion available on just about every corner. And about that OT verse 'vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord'. It means vengeance is reserved for the Divine, and is not the business o' mortal man. It does not mean 'vengeance is an expression of God' it means vengeance is for God alone. Not really a bad verse. A rare day when I speak in favor of an OT verse, but that is what I was taught, by those who taught such things. And that would rather support the compassionate release routine, as would much of the teachings of Jesus. Compassion toward prisoners is compassion toward Christ himself, according to the teachings, and the guilt or innocence of those prisoners is not even mentioned. The only people promised paradise in the entire text are two convicted criminals.
And usually I mock religion here. But so it is today, the opposite.

[malaise]

56. Agreed

Bush and Cheney are still walking free

[Bluerthanblue]

73. no kick from me- except

for your excellently worded OP.

I'm glad to share your perspective.

:grouphug:

k&r

[tnlefty]

75. I won't kick your ass.

I've watched 2 people who I loved dearly die from cancer.

Does it ever cross anyone's mind that the prison officials didn't want to deal with his final days? They're not easy.

Whether it was for compassion or the fact that the prison didn't want to deal with it, I have no problem with it. Let him go home and die and let his family care for him. Although, I heard that he has 2 weeks to live, I find that a little hard to believe since I saw him in footage walking on his own.

But if his family or whoever doesn't have access to pain meds., he'll die a painful death, so perhaps the angry can take solace in that aspect of his death.

[pipi_k]

79. I ain't gonna kick your ass because I feel sort of the same way

Such calls for vengeance as I've been seeing in other threads around here make me think I've been redirected to some alternate universe where DU has morphed into a caricature of FR.

People don't even wanna hear about compassion for the man's family...no, they should suffer too, even though they're as innocent as the victims of the bombing.

[spanone]

80. me too

bu$h* is the one who loved all over khadifi for his oil...mumar was the mastermind

[MrMickeysMom]

84. I listened to the reasons live this morning, then said, "Fuck it"-

This has nothing to do with what happened and to the time he served for the crime.

I simply said, "fuck IT". We are getting lost in what really happened for the rest of this convicts' time on earth. The punishment for the crime should be a deterrent to the crime.

What are we reasoning with here, people? Sometimes I feel the DNA from the less evolved ancestry boil up in our blood and I'm ashamed that we don't realize things like this.

Meanwhile, we don't seem to have a problem with the fact that so many crimes (murdering of presidents, etc.) are unsolved and therefore don't seem to matter.

F-U-C-K T-H-I-S K-I-N-D O-F D-R-I-B-B-L-E

[Hosnon]

90. Specific deterrence is not the only justification for punishment. nt.

[Hosnon]

88. I'm conflicted.

Assuming a criminal shows remorse, is dying (based on testimony of at least three experts), and will be held under house arrest or in a prison in his or her home country, I may consider it acceptable.

[mwooldri]

94. It's the Scottish legal system...

It has had this provision, and it has been used. Also it was the Scottish Cabinet Secretary for Justice, not London, that made the call on this, and politically the party in power in London is not the party in power in Edinburgh.

The situation however has left a whole mess. Did he indeed do it? He did abandon an appeal and got leave to go home as an act of compassion. If he stuck with his appeal he may well have died in prison, waiting for a verdict, and be seen back home in Libya as a martyr, especially if he was found not guilty posthumously.

Of course the most favourable decision would have been for the appeal to have gone through and a decision found out that way and then acted upon accordingly (might even have still be let out on grounds of compassion). However we will never know.

Maybe time to open up an inquiry into the whole Lockerbie affair again... maybe time to remember and mourn and let it pass... I really don't know.

For those families of victims, I can see how it is justice denied especially as on trial and 1st appeal he was found guilty and I cannot imagine how hard it must be on them to see this individual getting away (pardon the pun) scot free.

However the decision made was not made in Westminster but by Holyrood... and theirs alone to make. There was no "win win" situation here at all. Plus you can't say party politics played a part: remember the Scottish National Party is in charge at Holyrood, not Labour (as they are in Westminster).

But the Libyans to celebrate his coming home: tasteless.

Mark.

[Mystayya]

95. I am trying to look at it this way

Scotland has shown him mercy where he showed none. There is something to be said for that.

[KakistocracyHater]

96. did Scotland finally kick England off the island?

?

[Apollo11]

104. There is no border dispute between England and Scotland

The Minister who took this decision is a member of the Scottish National Party - who believes that Scotland should be an independent country.

But they also strongly support the European Union - so technically Scotland would still be part of a Union with England (no border patrols).

Most English people I know (including me) would have no problem with Scotland choosing the path of full independence (or self-government).

But every time there is an election in Scotland - most people vote for candidates who support the continuation of the United Kingdom.

[KakistocracyHater]

118. funny, I was joking

*

[proteus_lives]

98. Compassion? For this scum?

Never.

He helped kill 270 people. He should die in a prison's hospital ward.

"Compassion is, to me, a liberal value. And I'm a liberal." Justice is also a liberal value. And releasing this man to a hero's welcome in Libya is not justice.

[Stinky The Clown]

105. That's why I used the word "dichotomy". It fits.

[Bluerthanblue]

114. he is NOT receiving a 'hero's welcome' !!

where are go getting this idea?

Please honestly look at the 'welcome' this man is getting. And look at where the 'meme' of him being a 'hero' is coming from- and then ask yourself if spreading gossip and prejudice is a 'liberal' value. To me, part of being 'liberal' is taking the time and effort to think for myself- and to look for the truth, not to take the snippets offered by others telling me what i should think, or blindly trusting the media to speak without bias or agenda.

You may want to remind yourself that the government of Scotland believed there was enough doubt present about this man's guilt that they had granted him an appeal. Their understanding that he might not live long enough to see that process of JUSTICE begin( scheduled for Sept) was part of their decision to act with compassion and allow him to die in his home country.

Justice has become a twisted concept used by people to justify all kinds of wrong- We can call ourselves any damn thing we like, it is our actions and our lives that speak the truth, not our labels or badges.

Please don't let yourself be dragged into the destructive rut of vengeance and hatred which is often cloaked with the banner of "justice".

peace~

[WillieW]

101. Most European countries feel compassion for end of life criminals.

No matter what they have done.

[Apollo11]

103. The BBC has been reporting on the doubts in relation to Megrahi's conviction.

Please read this before you tell me the guy definitely did it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/8211596.stm

[DarbyUSMC]

111. Just posted this elsewhere in reply to "outrage".

Many of those killed were Syracuse Univ. students --- a couple of the girls from the Rochester area.

1. The guy is dying --- therefore he is getting the death sentence.

2. If kept in prison he would shortly be in the prison hospital.

3. The evidence was flimsy.

4. Vengeance is fruitless. There is no such thing as closure; It is a word over-used.

5. So the guy dies and it's over but was he really the guy?

6. The people cheering his return home were not cheering about the plane being shot down, but that one of their own was returning home. They may believe he's innocent or not, but know he's dying.

7. Maybe someday the world will know the truth. Meanwhile the families of the victims should settle down and practice the foundation of their religion which, of course, is forgiveness. "You will know them by their love;"

Matthew 6:14-15
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15 But if you don’t forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Forgiveness sets you free. That is a life principle not just a religious one.


Agnostic that I am,

[Bluerthanblue]

115. beautifully said-

:grouphug:

[ensho]

112. agree with you

nt

[slampoet]

116. This guy will die from Cancer soon. He already has a death sentence.

[jimcarlton32]

121. And what about compassion for the victims families?

The sole consolation they had was knowing that the murderer of their kin was locked away forever.

Now he's loose and living the life of a hero in his home country. This was nothing less then Scotland spitting in their faces.

I think it's sad that you have more compassion for a mass murderer then for the victims.

[John Kerry VonErich]

122. In some countries

Their prisons have a cemetary of sorts and won't hand the bodys of dead prisoners to the families.