Guardian UK: Thank heaven for the NHS (How dare the Republicans badmouth our free healthcare system)

[marmar]

Thank heaven for the NHS
How dare the Republicans bad-mouth our free healthcare system? If I'd been born in the US, I'd probably be dead by now

Michele Hanson
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 12 August 2009


The American Republicans opposed to Barack Obama's introduction of healthcare reforms have been bad-mouthing our NHS. How dare they? The NHS is one of my main reasons for thanking heaven I was born here, where I know that whatever my income, our free health system will look after me.

It's not perfect, no organisation of that size could be, it's bound to make some mistakes, but I don't know where I'd be without it. Probably dead. I have a thyroid condition, and every day for the last 30 years I've had free medication, like thousands of others with ongoing conditions: diabetes, epilepsy, cancer and many others. What happens to the 43 million people in the US who can't afford to pay for such things? Must they live a miserable, painful, debilitated life and die early?

My mother was cared for until 98, free, through pneumonia, stroke, angina, arthritis and a broken back. All but one of the dozens of doctors, nurses and medical staff who treated her were kind, patient and verging on saintly. She was even fitted with new false teeth at 97 by a lovely young dentist who came to our house to treat her, even though we all knew that the Grim Reaper was nearly at the door.

By that age, my mother often longed to be allowed to fade away, but our hospital seemed to pull out all the stops to keep her going. So those Republican claims that our elderly cannot receive certain treatments are fibs, or at least grossly exaggerated. The over-59s are not refused heart surgery. One of my friends, aged 70, has recently had a stent fitted; another, also 70, is about to have a valve replacement. And last year, aged 66, I had two cataracts removed. .........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/12/nhs-republicans-health-us

[Touchdown]

1. That's all good, but The Benny Hill re-runs just to get NHS???

:wow:

[Ilsa]

5. Do they get House or True Blood? I don't think

I could wait six months for my fav shows.

Although, they've had some good ones there too.

[JCMach1]

9. No but you get Torchwood, Dr. Who and Being Human

so their is some compensation...

[mwooldri]

13. Complete without adverts too. nt

[JCMach1]

25. darn tootin'

[cal04]

2. Health-Reform Rhetoric Gets Personal for Britons

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/12/AR2009081202955.html?hpid=topnews

Sen. Edward M. Kennedy would be refused treatment for his brain tumor in England -- at least according to one of the allegations lobbed at Britain's state-funded health-care service recently by critics of President Obama's proposed health-care reforms. Such claims have irked British health officials, who say they are misleading, exaggerated and sometimes just plain wrong.


Complaining about Britain's National Health Service (NHS) is a popular pastime here. The waiting times for specialist treatment are too long, Britons say, or the risk of picking up an infection in an unclean hospital ward is too high. At the same time, they consider such griping their particular preserve. Indeed, it has been said that the National Health Service is the nearest thing the British have to a religion, which helps explain why outsiders pointing out flaws in the system is bound to ruffle feathers, especially if some of their assertions are far-fetched.

Hamish Meldrum, the chairman of the British Medical Association, said in a statement Wednesday that he has been dismayed by the "jaw-droppingly untruthful attacks" by some American critics.

One of the most surprising of these was the rumor -- given an airing by Senate Finance Committee Chairman Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) -- that Kennedy, 77, would not receive treatment for his brain tumor if he were in England because he is too old.

"That's just wrong," a British Health Department spokesman said. "The NHS in England provides health services on the basis of clinical need, irrespective of age or ability to pay."

[kelly1mm]

3. The NHS is not "free". It is paid for by taxes. The RW always

scores points when when it appears that we progressives want "free health care". It does cost money.

[DBoon]

6. it costs less in taxes

than what we pay for in insurance and "out of pocket" in term of percent of GDP

[Crunchy Frog]

8. They pay less in taxes for healthcare than we pay in taxes for healthcare.

[kelly1mm]

10. I understand that and thanks for pointing that out. Still not "free" though. nt

[Winterblues]

31. It is at least as free as War....

:shrug: I would venture it doesn't put quite so much of our money into Corporate hands though..

[moonbatmax]

35. Well, I look at it this way:

Our private insurers are pushing our government to FORCE us to buy health insurance.
That means we will ALL be required to PAY an insurer to "cover" us.
In what way does this differ from a tax?

Only one:

Instead of a government entity, the money all goes to a private one.

Good thing private insurers are so much better at providing health care.
(Do I really need the tag?)

[mwooldri]

18. Yep, here's the figures.

US Medicare: $400 billion covers 45 million people, doesn't pay everything need supplemental insurance. Complicated prescription drug plan, have to pay lots.

UK's NHS: $180 billion covers 60 million people, pays pretty much everything though some treatments are just not covered (real expensive cancer drugs most notably). Simple prescription drug plan, small co-pays and and is possible to cap the out of pocket part to about $180-$200 a year. Lots of people exempt from paying a co-pay for drugs (schoolkids, unemployed, disabled, low income, senior citizens, people with certain illnesses).

Which plan would you prefer?

[Selatius]

20. Yours, but inside America, common sense is replaced by some form of psychosis.

It's like living in a bubble where everything outside of it doesn't matter. Anything foreign like the notion of universal coverage is placed in a bin called "communism" or "socialism" and forgotten.

[kelly1mm]

21. my point was about the use of the word "free" not supporting our system

over the NHS. I could have been clearer in my comments. Sorry for the confusion.

[mwooldri]

33. Yes, I did understand your point, no confusion.

No healthcare is free, I get it, you get it. I'm just cementing it further with the fact that the NHS IMO is bloody marvellous, but certainly not perfect... just imagine what the NHS could do with Medicare's budget.

Mark.

[mwooldri]

17. Actually it's paid for through National Insurance contributions.

While it works like a tax it's called insurance.

I would LOVE to see a healthcare system in the USA - something that provides a foundation that is free at the point of delivery to everyone who resides here, and is funded through a national insurance scheme where the insurance premiums are means tested.

Obama's plan is an improvement but in my eyes not far enough. The USA should be big enough to self-insure everyone... but apparently not yet.

Mark.

[kelly1mm]

19. Could you expand on the means testing component? It's OK to use

pounds in your answer so don't worry about converting.

[mwooldri]

34. I was being general here by saying that a US system should be means tested.

i.e. if you make $$$'s you pay $$$'s; if you make $0, you pay $0.

Specifically about the UK system for most people: it's done weekly, first £90 of pay is disregarded, then national insurance deductions for employees are calculated at 11% of the first £770 a week earned, then at 1% of earnings above that. Employers have to make similar contributions at different rates. Since National Insurance also includes pension payments, and you can opt out of a state pension scheme (not the basic one, just the enhanced one) you can pay less national insurance contributions if you choose to do so, but then you'd better be getting a private pension because you won't get so much money from HM Revenue & Customs when you retire.

Mark.

[kelly1mm]

37. Thanks a lot! One quick ? How much % is pension v. health? nt

[mwooldri]

38. I can't give an exact answer since there's been so many changes...

... under Conservative governments people were allowed to opt out of the pension part in varying degrees. So I don't know an exact figure. Would need further looking into.

Mark.

[kelly1mm]

39. Cool - I can and probably should look it up myself. Thanks again. nt

[Mr Creosote]

40. Of course the NHS is not "free"

But it is "free at the point of delivery". Which it was always designed to be.

[AspenRose]

4. Republicans sure know how to win friends and influence people worldwide

First they piss off the Canadians, and now the Brits.

I want to see a Swedish newspaper commentary for the trifecta.

[BirminghamExaminer]

7. I'm really tired of the Guardian article blaming the right wing in America

when the UK's own members of parliament are showing up on the Glenn Beck show and telling his audience how terrible NHS is and how Americans are crazy to even consider universal health care.

If you can bear to watch Glenn Beck, here's a link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wcWlHTRcTE

As long as we have British MPs coming on Fox news and spouting right wing bullshit, how can the Guardian go on and on about how everyone in Britain knows how great NHS is. I happen to think it is but when this Hannan guy or whatever his name is (MP) went on Glenn Beck, I nearly threw up.

[kelly1mm]

11. Technically he is a member of the European Parliament (MEP) not

a member of the UK Parliament(MP). Just an FYI.

[BirminghamExaminer]

12. Oh, thanks, then it's all okay. ;)

The point is when you have British people going on Glenn Beck and promoting Glenn Beck's agenda, it's enormously irritating. I don't know how they managed to find the one raging conservative in England but they did. Argh.

[kelly1mm]

14. I got your point. Just thought you may want to know. My bad. nt

[Prophet 451]

42. And he's getting pilloried for it now

Both by the general public and by his own party.

Front page of The Times this morning, above the fold, was a story about David Cameron (this guy's party leader) rebuking him. That sounds mild but in the British system, disagreements like this are usually settled quietly, it's pretty unusual to call out a member of your own party in public (except on the floor of the Commons where it happens all the time).

[T_i_B]

23. Not having clicked the link, that already sounds like Dan Hanann

the darling of Tory bloggers and gobshite par excellence. I wouldn't suprised if it is him being a rent-a-quote.

[dorkulon]

24. I believe it is him. He was on Glenn Beck the other day

It was much like watching Bush and Blair -- dumb American goober brings in articulate Brit to make his idiotic case sound smart for him.

[PVnRT]

30. Gobshite? I think that's my new favorite word.

[Prophet 451]

43. It was and he was

Cameron's publically bollocking him for it at the moment.

[T_i_B]

45. Trouble is, Hannan's views are shared by many Tories

You only need look at freebritannia or the many tory blogs for proof of that. They obviously still haven't got over Aneurin Bevan after all these years.

The Tories platitudes about how much they love the NHS are not 100% sincere. For many of them it does not matter how well it works in practice as it does not fit in with their stupid monetarist theories.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

46. My husband might disagree with you

I'm an American living in the UK for the past three years and am still not sure of what party to support. When this came up, he told me that the Tory party supports the NHS and idiots like Hannan are ruining that view. (My husband is Tory and had family in politics)

[T_i_B]

47. I've come across enough Tories in my time to know what they are like.

Which is why I don't support them thank you very much. Here's a quote for you from Aneurin Bevan, founder of the NHS and one of the all time great UK politicians.

That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through.

http://www.sochealth.co.uk/history/vermin.htm

[FunkyLeprechaun]

49. That was the opposition back then

I prefer the Lib Dems over the Tory/Labour but this is an issue that everyone should be united.

That's another point that I wish should be raised, the way the Republicans are acting a la the Tories in 1948.

[Prophet 451]

48. True dat

I think most of them know there would be a public revolt if they tried to privatise it. Monetarism is fine in theory but I suspect most can still remember the poll-tax riots and don't want to go down that road again.

[dorkulon]

15. Clearly the fact that there's one Brit dumb enough to oppose free healthcare invalidates everything

anyone else in the UK says. :eyes:

[mwooldri]

16. Guardian is a left-of-centre publication.

Generally balanced, but definitely not catering to the conservative or even Conservative crowd.

Everywhere has its crazies and on all sides (there was certainly reasons why the former Home Secretary was called Batty Jacqui). You got to think that somehow the British National Party got MEPs elected - and sorry I equate the BNP closely with the NSDAP in Germany of the 1920-s to 1945. Faux Noise would have no problem finding at least one politician in the UK who is not happy with XYZ and get them on their shows and spout their views.

[LeftishBrit]

29. We have our RW nuts too.

Daniel Hannan is disgusting. He is a right-wing bastard even by the standard of Tories (the vast majority of Tories support the *existence* of the NHS, even though their policies often weaken and underfund it to varying degrees). And he is one of those peculiar characters who is virulently anti-EU and at the same time chooses to be a member of the Europaean Parliament!

He is also stupid. I suppose one of the things he was most noted for before this was waxing lyrical, about 4 or 5 years ago, about the wonderful political and economic system in Iceland, one of the few Europaean countries not in the EU, where freedom to pursue a Thatcherite agenda with little national or international regulation had made them 'the freeest, wealthiest and happiest people' in Europe. Fast forward to 2008 and oooooooops!!!!

He is NOT typical of British politicians, even Tories. Cameron has distanced himself from Hannan's remarks.

'As long as we have British MPs coming on Fox news and spouting right wing bullshit, how can the Guardian go on and on about how everyone in Britain knows how great NHS is'

OK, not 'Everyone in Britain' - nothing ever is - but a very large majority. There's a reason why no government, even Thatcher's, was able or willing to abolish the NHS, though she did weaken it. The public just wouldn't stand for it. Please don't treat Hannan as representative of anything in Britain but a very loony fringe - and in return we won't treat Michele Bachmann as representative of the USA!

[western mass]

41. WRONG. The Tories support the NHS...

and David Cameron, the head of the Conservative Party, has come out and officially denounced that idiot MP who appeared on Fox.

"The Conservatives have sought to reassure voters that the NHS is safe in their hands after one of their MEPs joined in with US attacks on it."

"Tory leader David Cameron, who is not on Twitter, has also weighed in to defend the NHS, saying his party was 100% behind it. He has sent an e-mail message to supporters saying: "Millions of people are grateful for the care they have received from the NHS - including my own family. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8200817.stm

[mr blur]

44. And Cameron had a child with cerebral palsy,

so he knows.

[Toucano]

22. It's the Republicans who don't want Grandma to get new false teeth at 97.

That's the amazing irony of their "protests" and "outrage".

They are the ones who read that story and say to themselves, "That's a waste of money!"

They like the current non-system because it rations health care in a clandestine, cruel, and inefficient manner.

A true conservative would be in favor of something more efficient.

[kath]

26. K&R - why the hech aren't the Dems getting the message out there that national health care WORKS,

and that no way in hell would the Brits or the Canadians or the French or the Dutch or the Germans or the Belgians or the Swedes or the Danes or etc., etc., etc., want to change their healthcare systems for OUR sorry-ass pathetic healthcare "system"??

[RainDog]

27. k&r - Dems, don't be the enemies of the American people

if you capitulate to republicans, you are hurting this nation.

[LeftishBrit]

28. k & a BIG R & hear hear!

[JawJaw]

32. Pubs Knockin' the NHS

This issue has definitely gone to the top of the mainstream news agenda in the UK, now. (I think the Stephen Hawking quote helped)

And the UK is NOT happy!!

Was being talked about as one of the leading stories on the TV news this morning, and I also heard it being debated on BBC Radio 2's Jeremy Vine phone-in show, which is is usually a good barometer of the main issues in the news.

Most people in the UK are incredulous at the outlandish claims that the US right-wing media and politicians are spinning for home consumption.

Yes, we all like to moan about inefficiencies in the NHS (like ALL large organisations) but most of us would fight tooth and nail if a political party dared to tinker with it.

Even the Conservative leader, David Cameron is an enthusiastic and vocal advocate of the NHS (his own disabled children have been treated by the NHS)

[ControlledDemolition]

36. K&R! Republicans think that every dollar spent on health care is better spent on WMD! Oh, the irony!