I'm actually opposed to the Obama Health Care reform plan...

[ddeclue]

because it doesn't go nearly far enough...

The main good thing I can say about it is that it is better than the Republicans "plan" to hand our wallets over to the insurance companies.

We really need single payer and we really need a much less dish-watery plan that doesn't try so hard not to offend conservatives and insurance companies.

Unfortunately, I guess I'll have to hold my nose and support this because the Republicans will screw us if I don't.

[Better Today]

1. You shouldn't be promoting the BS idea that this is Obama's plan.

They are the Congressional plans, and as yet are not finalized. Obama has made a point of letting Congress do it's job.

[depakid]

8. That's true enough, since the Obama administration never had a plan to begin with

[DeltaLitProf]

13. Obama has made clear he has some very specific goals

All that was made available from late 2007 on via his website. His book Audacity of Hope also lists those goals.

[depakid]

He also made specific references to universal healthcare at his 1st big rally in Portland

and got thunderous applause.

That this wasn't on the table didn't seem to register with the crowd.

[dflprincess]

15. And HR3200 bears some resemblance to "Romney Care"

and that works so well in Massachusetts

[DeltaLitProf]

26. Go ahead and read about how it's doing in Massachussets

The Republicans are trying to say it's a disaster. Nope. Check out what the non-Rupert Murdoch media is actually saying in Boston.

[dflprincess]

32. There are several Massachusetts DUers who have said it is a disaster

[JDPriestly]

65. Do you think we would have had the New Deal if Roosevelt

had left things up to Congress? No. Obama should have presented a proposal for change and then Congress should have marked it up.

Obama made a huge mistake on taking this approach.

[Better Today]

68. Since it's only been six months, I'm not ready to go there with you yet.

No, I'm not all pleased with what I see on the surface. However, Obama has struck me as one that knows how to finesse things quite well. Finesse, being the key word. Finesse takes more patience that I have, and apparently than you have, so I am willing to hope that he pretty much knew this would happen and it is part of his plan. Perhaps to give Congress the try at it and when they fail he steps in some other way, maybe by mandating that Congressional health insurance is available to all Americans, or extend Medicare to cover down to age 18, I don't know. But he has been too astute for me to think he didn't/doesn't know exactly what's going on and has a plan to resolve it when the time is ripe(r).

[Double T]

2. The rethugs always want to hand our wallets over to some MEGA-monopolist corporation(s).

Good thing wall street didn't get a hold of Social Security like bush and the rethugs wanted. wall street and the rethugs are already sucking out 17% of our total economy and if something isn't done quickly it will ramp up to 20% then 25%. obama has to start somewhere.

[harun]

3. Obama set out some principles, this is Congress's implementation of the plan.

And why it isn't going nearly far enough. Congress is bought and paid for by the Insurance Industry.

[ddeclue]

4. Obama is hiding behind vague principles so if it fails he can say it wasn't his plan..

it's kind of weasely in my book and not how to lead on an issue.

He should have stood by his principles and announced a single payer Kucinich (Edwards) style plan which is what he supported before he decided to run for President.

Stop blaming Congress for not leading on this issue - it's not their job - it's his.

Doug D.

[DURHAM D]

5. I agree with you 100%.

He is spending no political capital. Makes you ask yourself why he wanted the job if he doesn't want to do the job.

[sandnsea]

7. He made one statement about single payer

He never introduced it in Illinois, although he did introduce other health care legislation and a Constitutional Amendment to make health care a right. You'd think if he really supported single payer, like you say he did, he'd have made some effort to get it enacted in Illinois.

I do not understand what thrill there is in lying about someone's words and then using the lie to disparage him. I do not understand where such vile hatred comes from.

And yes, Congress does write the legislation, any old way they want to. Obama is leading by showing the country how our government is supposed to work.

[ddeclue]

9. What NONSENSE.. the man is ON RECORD for SINGLE PAYER..

that is NOT a LIE..nor is it HATRED to POINT OUT THE FACTS...

and NO Obama is NOT leading on this issue, he's hiding and doing the minimum he can.. if really wanted to do something he wouldn't be handing out "principles", he'd have an actual single payer plan... I told the Organizing For America guy Obama sent in to stop wasting our time in our local Democratic Executive Committee meeting because I needed those people to focus on winning back state house seats instead of wasting time on a half-hearted plan that wasn't going to change anything even if it passed.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

10. Yes. Obama is hiding. That's why he's doing tons of townhalls all over the country.

That's the best place to hide.

[ddeclue]

11. YES he IS hiding in plain sight behind a dishwatery non-plan and vague principles..

you are quite correct...

:eyes:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

12. Do you remember 1994? At all? Congress complained and complained that Clinton was micromanaging

congress and how dare he try and erase the separation of the branches of government.

[ddeclue]

16. Ummm yeah I DO remember 1994 - that wasn't the problem...

the problem was that the plan was done behind closed doors...

Obama can have a plan without going to the Hillary extreme without ceding his leadership role as he is doing now.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

20. Do you honestly believe there are 60 votes in the Senate for single payer?

The Blue Dogs are having to be dragged kicking and screaming over the public option line.

[ddeclue]

28. And THAT is OBAMA's job..n/t

[SemiCharmedQuark]

31. Ok. What can he do?

[ddeclue]

36. Come out clearly and unashamedly for single payer and use his prestige

popularity and moral authority to shame the Blue Dogs into doing the right thing..

ask Lyndon Johnson about passing the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act.

Doug D.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

47. He's come out in favor of a public option clearly and that has not made blue dogs any more likely to

support it.

And it's not just blue dogs that are opposed to single payer.

[ddeclue]

50. Umm NO he HAS NOT- his support for public option has been half hearted

when he should ACTUALLY be supporting single payer.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

51. "Pres. Obama: Americans deserve public option"

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/7/29/759396/-Pres.-Obama:-Americans-deserve-public-option

[ddeclue]

54. Yawn... not exactly a barn burner..

Obama's not trying very hard in my book. You're NOT gonna convince me that this dishwatery "public option" is anything like what it should be nor am I convinced that it will even exist by the time Obama signs something and calls it "reform".

Doug D.

[Enthusiast]

67. He should come out

and tell the American people that although he would prefer a single payer system we might have to do with a watered down public option plan. What is wrong with telling the truth? I don't see how this would hurt him.

[DeltaLitProf]

21. You need to read more about what went on in 94

That was not the only problem with the way the bill was handled. At the end, in Sept-Oct 94, the Clintons had the chance to get a bill through and decided to take the ball and go home. They could have gotten a federally subsidized insurance plan that would cover everybody and they walked away. And then the Republicans took over in 94 and it was all gone. There is no telling how many people died because of that.

Get the book On the Edge by Elizabeth Drew.

[ddeclue]

24. NO I don't need to read more about it.. I lived through it as an adult..

perhaps you didn't...

The Clintons didn't have a chance to get a real bill through so they walked away.

[DeltaLitProf]

35. No you don't need to read about it? That's freeper talk

You don't want to read because you know you'll be shown to be wrong. So you don't read.

I HATE HATE HATE when Democrats behave like conservatives.

[ddeclue]

39. NO YOU are the one acting like a conservative - labeling people you disagree with

I don't need to read something that I already know is wrong. I read plenty and don't have time to read fiction.

Doug D.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

37. You can always learn more by reading about a subject.

Whether you lived through it or not.

[ddeclue]

40. No not always.. there are plenty of fiction books masquerading as non-fiction...

especially in the political realm..

:eyes:

[Better Today]

70. Exactly. You and I are seeing the same thing. He's avoiding the Clinton trap

of usurping Congress before even giving them a chance. Though I sure hope he has something up his sleeve when/if they fail to pass single payer or a really good public option.

[sandnsea]

62. He is on record saying it isn't feasible

Over and over and over and over and over and over. Day after day, throughout the campaign.

That is his position. Period. He DOES NOT SUPPORT SINGLE PAYER. Why do you choose to ignore what the man has said repeatedly to focus on one flippant sentence?

Subsidized insurance will change an enormous amount. Ask the thousands of people using FHIAP in Oregon and thousands more covered in Mass, 97% of the state now have health coverage. It matters.

[DeltaLitProf]

14. So you're going to let the perfect get in the way of the good?

Is that your approach to politics? Are you now going to agree with your Right-wing relatives and give them more ammunition to tell their friends misinformation about the House plan by saying, "Yep even my liberal cousin is against it?" Is that what you want to do?

[dflprincess]

18. That would be an argruement if the plans being put forth were indeed "good"

but the main purpose of HR3200 seems to be to protect the insurance companies by requiring that most people/companies continue to contribute to their profits. Acces to health insurance is not acces to health care - and access to health care is what we should hold out for.

[DeltaLitProf]

23. Under the House plan . . .

. . . I can turn down the insurance offered by my employer and go to the public option. I don't have to pay one penny in premiums to the corporate insurers if I think I can get a better deal through the feds.

[ddeclue]

27. And the House Plan will never get passed by the Senate..

the Blue Dog Dems are insisting on gutting the public option and I don't hear Obama fighting to save it.

[dysfunctional press]

41. i kind of think that obama was hoping that the people would let their reps know their feelings...

about it over the break.
he did come from community organizing, after all...
and he is more partial to chess than checkers when it comes to politics.

give it time, talk to ALL your reps and/or their offices as often as possible, and wait to see what kind of a bill emerges before freaking out.

the country really does want single-payer- most of them just don't realize it.

[ddeclue]

44. Politics is poker not chess nor checkers...

and leaving it to others is a recipe for failure on health care because Republicans will always do exactly what they are doing now while Democrats will complacently let it happen.

[dysfunctional press]

59. ultimately- it HAS to be left to others.

the president doesn't vote in the senate.

[dflprincess]

30. That will not be true immediately

by 2019 the CBO estimates that only 10 million people will be covered by the public plan - and that's not because everyone else just loves their private plan and can't give it up.

For at least the first several years if your employer offers a private plan (and your employer is too large to go on the public plan) that is what you and your employer will be stuck with.

[ddeclue]

19. lame straw man argument...

I don't live my life worrying about how the wing-nuts are going to twist and spin my opinions because it really wouldn't matter WHAT I said, they'd still try to spin it and twist it and distort it anyways.

Doug D.

[DeltaLitProf]

29. So with that in mind

. . . why say anything? Why say a word about what you believe? It would be hopeless, right? No chance of changing anybody's minds. Why not just shut up?

Surely you see the absurdity of your statement.

[ddeclue]

34. No it's YOUR statement that is absurd...that I should shut up because someone my misrepresent me..

I don't live in fear like you do.

[DeltaLitProf]

43. I publish a column in MISSISSIPPI twice a month bashing conservatives

I teach empathy, tolerance and anti-racism in a MISSISSIPPI college. I get no death threats, but I get plenty of complaints to my boss.

So don't you presume I live in fear. I speak out boldly and often. I risk my job doing so and I do it anyway.

A tip for future good participation in DU: don't assume things about the people you're interacting with.

[ddeclue]

45. I didn't assume, I extrapolated from your previous post...

and whoopee.. I live in the south too.. I'm not impressed...

[liberalpragmatist]

42. Edwards did NOT propose a single-payer plan

He proposed a plan that was essentially the same as what Clinton proposed and what Obama proposed. Clinton's and Edwards' plans were basically identical. Obama's was largely identical except that he didn't call for an individual mandate.

All the plans called for Medicaid expansion, an increase in subsidies to purchase insurance, an employer mandate, an insurance exchange modeled on the Federal Employee Health Benefits Plan, and a public plan. That's also essentially what is being debated in Congress.

[ddeclue]

46. Actually he DID propose single payer - I worked for the campaign

as an organizer here in Orlando and personally met the man several times and heard him speak on it. Clinton's plan was mandatory insurance and Obama's plan was to duck the question.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

49. That's not what his website says.

The closest he comes is talk of expanding medicare.

"Under the Edwards Plan:

* Families without insurance will get coverage at an affordable price.
* Families with insurance will pay less and get more security and choices.
* Businesses and other employers will find it cheaper and easier to insure their workers.

The Edwards Plan achieves universal coverage by:

* Requiring businesses and other employers to either cover their employees or help finance their health insurance.
* Making insurance affordable by creating new tax credits, expanding Medicaid and SCHIP, reforming insurance laws, and taking innovative steps to contain health care costs.
* Creating regional "Health Care Markets" to let every American share the bargaining power to purchase an affordable, high-quality health plan, increase choices among insurance plans, and cut costs for businesses offering insurance.
* Once these steps have been taken, requiring all American residents to get insurance."

http://johnedwards.com/issues/health-care/


So whatever he told you was not his official platform.

[ddeclue]

52. It was to expand Medicare to cover all Americans...

[SemiCharmedQuark]

53. That's not what the website says. The website speaks of making insurance affordable.

Something that is *inconsistent with single payer since single payer eliminates the waste of insurance providers to begin with.

(*edited to correct a wrong word...spellcheck)

[ddeclue]

55. I will go with what I heard with my own ears at the time rather than what you found on a website

2 years later...

Doug D.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

56. Well, what he actually ran on is what is on his campaign website.

His platform is not single payer. To describe it as such is just wrong.

[ddeclue]

57. Well you can believe what you want to believe... I know what I heard..

and as far as I'm concerned you're wrong..

Doug D.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

58. Yes, why would you believe his own campaign website.

That's just nutty.

[dysfunctional press]

60. there you go again...

answering your own question.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

61. John Edwards is obviously trying to smear John Edwards.

[DeltaLitProf]

66. ddeclue, you really take the cake

Your credibility now is zero. First, taking the Right-wing spin about what is in the House bill. Now asking us to believe you over John Edwards' own website. Doug, as Lawrence Taylor once said, "You gotta do better than this."

[stuball111]

6. Stick to your guns...

I agree, single payer universal and fuck the rest. Kucinich has a bill on the floor or introduced so there are options out there being held alive by some. These are the guys that are true Democrats and need support. Wiener from New York is another one who supports it. It has to be drawn up by Congress and all that first, and we'll see if he vetoes it, which I hope he will. But it's NOT "Obamacare" That's a freeper term. And he's just set some guidelines that he says he wants to see.

http://www.hr676.org/

http://s209363542.onlinehome.us/

[DeltaLitProf]

17. It must be very nice . . .

. . . to be able to write off the quality of life for millions of Americans because you don't get the exact kind of bill you want. I've had relatives die because of the lack of care this present system promotes. I'm not going to give up the prospect of improvements that will save lives because I didn't get the perfect bill. People are sick now. People are going bankrupt now. Let's do something now and then tweak it later when we need to.

[ddeclue]

22. distortion of reality... the proposed "plan" is not really guaranteeing anyone health care

at least as it is formulated now and the "public option" is most likely going to be gutted before Obama signs it so it will really be the Health Insurance Company Protection Act by the time it gets signed.

[DeltaLitProf]

33. Go ahead and make these assumptions

They are not bourne out in the House version. The Blue Dogs caved. They got only one concession regarding payments to doctors in rural areas. Rahm and Henry Waxman whipped them.

The proposed House plan guarantees health care to every American who decides to get it. There will always be people who turn it down.

[ddeclue]

48. And the present House plan will NOT be what gets signed into law...

if you believe that I have a bridge over in Tampa Bay to sell you...

Doug D.

[stuball111]

25. I agree...

Probably won't happen overnight, but a public option MUST be started and on the table to open the door. If there isn't one, then it'll be 180 degrees the other way where we'll be forced to buy private insurance, just like for your car.

[dflprincess]

38. The house bill isn't going to save anybody anytime soon

even Obama says it will take "years" to ramp up - current estimates are no one will be covered by it until 2013. It took 11 months to get Medicare up and running after it was passed - it's the system Obama should be building on.

[Amos Moses]

63. You're not the only one, ddeclue.

This public option will be nothing more than a government enforced insurance scam. Lots of Americans have insurance. Doesn't mean it gets them health care. Often, it means they get nothing.

Hell, most people won't even be able to opt into the public option anyway so I don't even know why it's being called an option to begin with.

Not only are we going to get fucked on the issue of access to affordable care, we're going to spend a trillion dollars on it so the insurance companies can rake in even more than ever.

That money should be spent on health care for everyone, not on a scam to increase profit for insurance companies.

[Q3JR4]

64. Me too. Single payer all the way.

Also, the bastards at the insurance companies can bite me.

Q3JR4.

[BlooInBloo]

69. Yep - and you people in tandem with the right might win this fight. We'll see.

[DevonRex]

71. This is CONGRESS'S PLAN. Not Obama's. Good lord. RW talking points

all OVER the place here. Enough is enough.