So it seems the people who could afford to drive a car worth under $5000 are now going to

[RB TexLa]

have to pay to stimulate the economy for the next 48 to 60 months?

When Bush told everyone to go out and spend money after September 11, DU pretty much laughed at it and rightfully said it was not wise to spend money during such uncertain times. Now, once again with economic uncertain times, DU is now actually cheering the government encouraging and bribing the poor to not only spend money but assume new debt while at the same time giving car dealers a nice "welfare" check for every car and debt sold to the poor.

[Skip Intro]

1. I've heard this before. Why the assumption the people buying cars are poor?

[RB TexLa]

3. So it's the top ten percent using the program. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Curtland1015]

9. I'm not poor OR in the top ten percent. Do I not exist to you?

:shrug:

[Gold Metal Flake]

28. That's right, you do not exist to him.

and he will not drink with you.

[cali]

41. try rubbing a couple of brain cells together, honey. Just because you're not poor

doesn't mean that you're in the top 10%, genius. duh.

[havocmom]

50. Have to be rich or poor? Wow. That's one helluva a mindset.

Worth watching :popcorn:

[scheming daemons]

61. yes... because the U.S. consists of 10% rich and 90% poor and NOBODY in between

:eyes:

[cynatnite]

2. There is just no comparing the two at all here. n/t

[babylonsister]

4. Oh please. People are happy to have this opportunity to upgrade

their fuel hogs, some that are falling apart.

No one's being forced to do anything, and a car isn't a flat-screen tv.

[LostInAnomie]

5. Why would you assume it's the poor buying new cars?

[eleny]

6. Perhaps some people wanted to buy new vehicle but coudn't quite qualify

And this new program helps them over the loan qualifying hump.

Your thoughts and mine are all speculation, of course. But something has people flocking to the dealerships around here.

[JuniperLea]

7. You seem to be making a lot of blatantly erroneous assumptions here...

And quite frankly I don't have the desire to show you the light. If you can't get it on your own, well, bless your little heart.

[Enrique]

14. +1

:thumbsup:

[undeterred]

8. I think you don't understand the program.

[sandnsea]

10. The poor can't get car loans

It's taking 700+ FICO to get a car loan these days.

And when the dealer matches the $4500 with their own $4500, you're talking $9000 - plus a hybrid tax credit and sales and federal excise tax deduction.

The poor aren't using this program.

[quiller4]

18. 700 FICO--not at my credit union. n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

30. I have a 610 FICO and I

got one for 10% interest. Not too bad.

[sandnsea]

35. Where?

I have several people I could refer to your bank or credit union.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

37. Ambank

It's a locally owned bank in my area.

[ecstatic]

11. I think the people who bought cars can afford them and just needed something

to motivate them to go to the dealerships. For instance, I can afford to buy a new car but my current car is nowhere near a clunker. But the right deal could get me in a new car!

If everyone clutches on to their wallets tightly, this economy will never improve. What you're advocating will not get this country back on track.

[RB TexLa]

13. OK, so what new debt have you taken on during the current recession

[quiller4]

19. Financed a used car purchase last October. It is paid off now.

In January financed new carpet for our mobile. That will be paid off in September. We just continued what we had planned all along. The recession doesn't impact my husband's pension of Social Security.

[ecstatic]

20. I am being cautious about taking on new debt

because right now I'm stuck in a house, etc. and I'm approaching a crossroads. But people who are not approaching crossroads should feel free to take on debt.

[SoCalDem]

12. Nope. these "deals" are for people who were going to buy a car

but were waiting until things picked up a bit.. This came along and made them decide to quit waiting, especially if they can do away with the part where they try to sell the old car that no one drives much anymore, and before would have gotten a pittance in a trade.

the sad part is that the $4500 only applies to NEW cars. I wish they had worked it so that the "clunkers" had to be no newer than 2000, and had to have at least 100K miles on them..and that you could use the voucher to buy a USED vehicle.,


There will always be cheapo disposable cars for sale, and those will be the ones that poor folks buy:(

[Uzybone]

15. massive GOP fail

[chollybocker]

16. Why go to FR, when I can get my daily RW talking points right here on DU?

:thumbsdown:

[RB TexLa]

17. So "go out and spend money" is now a DU talking point? Ripped right out of Bush's mouth.

[ecstatic]

22. Oh stop it!

The sky is not falling ffs

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. Some people can't win for losing

Why are there a thousand idiots out there trying to find fault with a pretty good Keynesian program.

Is it perfect? No. Nothing ever is. But this is becoming preposterous.

[EC]

23. There are plenty of people who really need a car,

and really need a car that can save them gas money to get to work...my daughter is one of them. Her car has been on it's last legs (so to speak) and travels 60 miles a day to and from work...she needed a good deal and this was it...and by the way, the cash for clunker deal was the only way she was going to get any money for a trade-in...car lots have way too many used cars now, that they have been unable to sell because they are mostly gas-guzzlers...

[taterguy]

29. Please post your daughter's employer's zip code

I suspect there's housing closer than 30 miles away.

I could be wrong.

But I doubt it.

[EC]

32. So,

buying a new house, paying for the moving (plus increased living expenses and taxes) would have been more economical? There are no jobs left here (although watching the obits has become known as a job search tool around here)so many commute north or south every weekday... at least there are jobs in the bigger cities around here, it's not like there is much choice...

[RB TexLa]

34. Wait, wait, wait . . . shouldn't she be buying a new house to stimulate the economy? There's a

tax break for that, shouldn't she be more patriotic and stimulate the North American economy? If she is only taking the debt from the new car maybe she doesn't really love 'Merica. :sarcasm:

[taterguy]

39. The philosophical question is what choices should the government encourage?

It seems your view is that the government should subsidize people who choose to live far away from life's necessities (Yes, we can endlessly quibble about whether or not they have a choice, as if people can't "choose" to live in rental property that's conveniently located).

I happen to think that the government should do all it can to promote sustainable lifestyle choices.

[vadawg]

42. lol i see your point, but no way in hell do i want to live close to work

id rather drive teh 100 odd miles daily in my 4x4 and pay the gas prices than live in the burbs or town, yes it is a lifestyle choice and i choose a lifestyle thats better for my family, safer for my kids and more darn fun...

[taterguy]

43. Would you feel the same way if someone else wasn't paying for it?

That is, how would your life change if the government suddenly decided to stop heavily subsidizing automobile usage?

[vadawg]

44. id still live here, i would just stop paying out on other stuff

no way in hell would i move closer to the city, plus i would vote and work against any politician who tried to force me to...

[taterguy]

57. Just for fun, what stuff could you cut back on?

I thought most people had their budgets stretched fairly thin in this day and age.

[EC]

53. No, not SHOULD subsidize,

but it's nice that they did...so why not take advantage of it?

[Jennicut]

24. I think its a great program and know some people who could

benefit greatly from it....working class or middle class friends in their late twenties/early thirties whose cars are not the greatest and need new transmissions put it or get a new car. Many of my friends are going on to their second car now after getting as much as they could out of the first one. My sister in law needs a new car badly. Ridiculous assumptions.

[Hansel]

25. I'm sorry but poor people are not going out and buying new vehicles

They can't afford them.

There are plenty of middle class people who drive them there gas guzzlers that it was their "God given right to own" who have found that they are a little too expensive to fill every week. The leading vehicle being turned in in this campaign is the Ford Explorer. It is not exactly the vehicle of choice for the poor.

You still have to qualify to buy a vehicle and I'm sure the people buying them don't meet the definition of being poor.

[RB TexLa]

26. ok, middle class. I guess that's who deserves new debt.

[DefenseLawyer]

31. Deserves new debt?

It's a voluntary program, chief. No one will have a new car thrust upon them.

[scheming daemons]

62. Yes.. because the Govt is FORCING them to utilize the program

Quit being an ass.... the ones utilizing the program are the people who can afford it.

[JuniperLea]

27. When did anyone say it was for poor people?

What did I miss? This program is designed to get gross polluters off the road, and to stimulate the economy, and to save jobs for the auto industry. Check, check, and check. That means it's working, and it's doing what it is supposed to do.

Deflecting the truth, suggesting this plan is a failure because poor people won't get new cars is utterly ridiculous. That was not the intent, and the suggestion is so much GOP bullshit.

[gmoney]

33. +1

[omega minimo]

36. It's the middle class Urban Assault Vehicle drivers who are cashing in, not "the poor"

:thumbsdown:

[dysfunctional press]

38. only if they want to and are able to.

i drive a car worth under $5000, and it's on the list....but i have no intention of trading it in. i don't like the idea of car payments- i never have, and i've never had them- i always buy cars for cash.

[cali]

40. I like the cash for clunkers program. And it gave my 22 year old son the opportunity

buy a new and safe car. He'd been driving a fifteen year old Ford Explorer that constantly broke down and guzzled gas. He is now the proud owner of a new subcompact that gets over 30 miles to the gallon and his payments are 148 bucks a month.

[Peacetrain]

45. We bought a new car.. a month or so ago.. a little before the clunkers..

but guess what.. we could have used that extra.. and trust me.. we are NOT rich.. we are so middle of the middle, that they use our family as a financial standard..How we go, the country goes.. so pffftttttt.. to that.. I hope people can take advantage of this. Do you have any idea how much it costs to keep a clunker going.. It eats up every penny you have

[alarimer]

46. It's mostly people who don't need the money who are taking advantage of the program.

Sure, you can get $3500 for a trade-in but you still have to finance the rest (or most people do). So that leaves only the upper and upper-middle classes who can afford to do that (or who have the credit rating to do so).

Poor people are left driving whatever broken-down piece of shit they have, while thousands of (probably) better used cars are being destroyed. But they would not likely be able to afford those either, not the way car dealers rip off everyone.

No, this program pays WAY more than those cars are actually worth, ripping off taxpayers, and giving money to car dealers, who further rip off the buyers (as they ALWAYS do). Meanwhile, poor people are once again left in the cold.

Government spending does help in a recession/depression. But it needs to actually put people to work. We need a new CCC, something that directly employs the unemployed, building roads or repairing parks or whatever. There is huge backlog of repair projects at national parks which could benefit from this. Yet no one thinks of directly putting people to work. Instead the government is bribing them to buy stuff they do not really need.

[ellie]

59. How is a gas guzzling car

better for poor people? I have read this argument time and again on DU that all these really great cars are being destroyed that could be given to poor people. Guess what? They still have to pay for gas. It is $2.40 a gallon here in Toledo. That isn't cheap.

[justiceischeap]

47. My beef with "Cash for Clunkers"

I can't afford to take on a car payment and I've been searching for an old car to buy within my price range (and it ain't much, let me tell you). There are plenty of good cars that are being destroyed because they aren't as fuel efficient as they could be. I could use one of those cars. Also, there are some dealers out there whose livelihood is made in the "beater car" market. This is going to affect them negatively too.

That said, I'm sure I'll find a beater car in my price range because there are others out there that already have that second family car they've decided they don't need because of the economy but it still makes it hard to find a decent used vehicle when everyone is rushing to get more money from a car than they'd normally get.

[high density]

48. Nobody is holding a gun to a person's head and forcing them to participate in the program

The 'stimulating' effect of this is happening currently. The act of people repaying their auto loans over the next four or five years is not stimulating.

[benEzra]

49. My car is a '97 with 181,000 miles.

I paid $5000 for it several years ago. When it finally quits, I'll probably buy another used car in the $5000 to $10,000 range if I can afford one, but I can't afford a new car at the moment, not even close. If I could, I'd be driving a newer car right now...

Another problem with the cash-for-clunkers bill is that it is weighted heavily toward trucks and SUV's, rather than passenger cars.

[greguganus]

51. A friend traded in his 2001 Dodge Ram truck. It was a very nice truck.

He told me the mechanic at the dealership had to pour sodium silicate (sometimes called liquid glass) into the engine block to ruin the engine so the salvage yard couldn't sell/use the truck. The salvage yard worker said they were losing money on crushing the vehicles because they weren't allowed to take any parts off the vehicle to sell them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. They have a 30 day window in which they can sell parts...

... then the car is crushed.

It bothers me a lot to destroy serviceable machines to create a market for new ones.

[old mark]

52. QWe will probably buy a car later this summer, but I doubt we qualify

for the clunker's program - the car we will sell/trade gets 22 MPG, unfortunately in premium gas. We want to get rid of our POS VW Passat and get a small SUV, probably Japanese or Korean. We may get one of the former lease cars sold every fall by our credit union.

mark

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. What happened to "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle"?

I need to get my playbook updated. I didn't realize it was such a good thing for the government to borrow $3 billion to encourage people to borrow money to destroy their current serviceable car and replace it with one from a foreign company.

I think it's interesting how our culture has changed. Compare this to the stimulus used by FDR. Many of those parks and trails are still in use. Today, disposable is good. In fact, it's the only kind of purchases worth encouraging.

[JCMach1]

58. sales have been so low, it has simply uleashed some of the pentup

demand...

People still need cars in the U.S. ... It's just that fear had prompted many folks to hold off.

[RB TexLa]

64. But the fear was and is rational.

[JCMach1]

65. yes and no... there are many who need vehicles who have

jobs and are doing okay...

The cash just gave them a positive reason to make a move.

[scheming daemons]

60. Yes... because the $3 billion in Cash-for-Clunkers represents the ENTIRE $787 billion stimulus

:eyes:


Don't be stupid.

[scheming daemons]

63. If ever a thread deserved to be unrec'd into oblivion, it is this one