Don Imus and the Road from Katrina to Rutgers

[BronxBoy]

Well Mr Imus has gone and stepped in it hasn't he? It's been interesting to watch this particular little firestorm play out.

From the clamor from the "off with his head crowd" to the drumbeat of apologists crying that this is nothing more than a case of a choirboy who chose to say a naughty word, it speaks volumes about the level of political discourse in this country that we have been presented with an opportunity, once again, to have an open and honest discussion about race and it looks like we are going to squander it.

I don't listen to Imus. The last time I listened to him was when he had an uncanny knack of letting vodka and cocaine keep him coming from to work. But as a Black man, I was very angry when I heard what he said. Primarily because he stole a moment in time from these young ladies that should have been one of those milestone moments in their lives. And there was no reason for it. A joke? Why did he naturally gravitate to a joke that was rooted in racial denigration with no sense of context whatsoever?

But I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon calling for his head. I think that in spite of his lame attempts at humor, he's opened the door to having some conversations that need to be had. As a community, we have to come to grips that our interpretations of our visions of ourselves from SOME parts of our community have made it easier for people from outside our community to disparage us. I've never agreed that using the word "Nigger" takes away its power. It only provides cover for those who use it in it vilest forms. Just as condoning music that portrays our women as mere sexual objects provides cover for some clueless DJ to call a group of high achieving sisters "Hos" for absolutely no reason on earth. I know a lot of us don't want to hear it, especially from White people, but there is a double standard as it concerns the passion with which we deal with this language in our community and when it it is used by someone else. Bob Johnson made a fortune at BET showing Black women in a manner that I would never, ever want my nieces or women in my life to be portrayed. Yet last I checked, he walked off into the sunset with a billion dollars without ever really being called to task for those portrayals.

But before you Imus apologists sit back and bask in an aura of "I told you so" hear this. What a lot of you fail to understand is that many of us in the Black community are not treating this as an isolated incident but as the latest in an ever more sickening pattern of White media personalities finding it necessary to describe us as something less than human. I guess if I were White, it would be a little easier to say "Look the guy made a mistake, He apologized. Cut him a break" But many of us can't do that because we know that just letting this pass without an thorough expression of our rage just continues the pattern. A lot of you have pointed out the double standards regarding this incident vis a vis the lyrics of Black music. And I submit there is some merit in that argument. But a lot of you conveniently forget other double standards like how politicians fall all over themselves to condemn speech that offends their sensibilities (Khalid Muhammand or Sista Souljah anyone?) but are silent on this issue. Funny how you can hear the crickets chirp over the din of protestations from all of the presidential candidates who would have us vote for them in 2008. And for us the double standards are a little more serious because they perpetuate other double standards such as sentencing inequities and the treatment of our children by the police that many of you don't get.

I don't know if Imus should get fired. His apology only really matters to one group of people and that's the Rutgers basketball team. And we haven't heard from them But I do know that during Katrina Black people were portrayed in some of the most disgusting manners by the so-called media. We were gang raping 5 year olds and cutting the throats of children and stacking them in freezers. And those depictions went mostly unchallenged which made it easier for some people to give voice to some of their most basest prejudices. Yeah although they are hundreds of miles apart the road from Katrina ravaged New Orleans and Rutgers University isn't really that far.

I hope that we can use this incident not as a validation of our own personal feelings but to begin to have conversations that bring us closer together.

[chemenger]

1. You won't find me among the Imus apologists.

I think he should be fired. There needs to be some consequences for this king of inflammatory "free" speech. If you or I said anything like he said on our jobs we would have been fired for sexual harrassment. And if the FCC can fine Howard Stern for some of the "indecent" comments he made on his show then Imus (and Oprah for that matter) should be fined as well.

[xultar]

2. But didn't he insult all black women? I mean if he had been describing

a team of all white women he would have just called them HOs wich is SEXIST I know but not racist.

Why did nappy have to come into play @ all? What he said was rasist. I can handle the sexist part...but the racist part is too fuckin much. When he insulted the Rutgers team he insulted all black women.

So from that...I have to fuckin weigh in. I'm taking it personally. I can't hide my race with ease but I can hide my sexuality if I choose. That is what makes racism so fucked up and wrong.

[BronxBoy]

8. Yeah He did.....

And I hope I didn't give the impression that I am minimizing what he said. It's just that I feel that there have been presentations of us that were much more insidious and injurious to us and nothing got done. And we need to be equally vigilant in addressing those.

[Captain Hilts]

11. He insults women ALL the time. nt

[xultar]

31. Strangely enough I don't mind the woman part. I can't figure out why include

race to insult someone.

[Morgana LaFey]

50. Well, *I* mind the woman part

And I mind the racism part. And thankfully, the WOMEN INVOLVED minded the women part, as well. There's been too little mention and notice of the sexism in that stunt of his for my taste. Far too little. Fortunately, Lou Dobbs got it (last night's show); Rev. Sharpton gets it. Far too few DUers get it. And I find it frankly discouraging when a FEMALE DUer treats it dismissively (that is, doesn't get it).

The bigotry is dual, and equally offensive. BOTH parts need to be addressed and shot down, if for no other reason than if it's not, next time an Imus maybe won't diss the women for their race, but will feel perfectly justified and free to diss them for their gender.

[jeffrey_X]

59. IMO if the Rutgers team was predominately white...

he wouldn't have made the comment in the first place.

[KharmaTrain]

3. Well Said...It Is The Level Of Discourse

I wouldn't be so critical of Imus if this had been some "blurt"...a rare instance of him showing intolerance and hatred. It's a common thread on that show. I, too, used to watch regularly but was driven away with the constant harping and vile that eminated from the show...not just at blacks but at many different people. I found it an abuse of having a 50,000 megaphone to use one's show to attack people who couldn't rebut back (and then suck up to his "friends").

Sadly, this is benign language compared to what I hear when I scan the radio dial. There are dozens of stations spewing intolerance and separation...wrapping it in a flag and claiming it is what "America" is about. It's a shame to listen to not just the hate, but the ignorance that goes along with it. It's as though all the enlightenment some of us experienced in the 60s and 70s never happened.

I have mixed feelings about Imus. My suggestion to MSNBC and CBS Radio would be to fill the two weeks with black radio hosts...people like Roland Martin, Tom Joyner, Tavis Smiley and others who can help create a bridge far better than an Al Sharpton can. I have a real problem with the corporate media immediately turning to a Sharpton or Jesse Jackson in an almost Pavlovian fashion when it comes to issues of race. While I'm white, I've heard this sentiment expressed many times from black friends.

Unfortunately this story is several wrapped in one and many will pick at the one part that affects them and ignore the rest. It's infuriated blacks, but not for the same reason it's offended women. It also exposes the corporate media's cronyism...as we see many of the "beltway elite" rushing to Imus' defense and the use of Sharpton and Jackson as some kind of black litmus. I find this very insulting.

Should Imus be fired? That's too simple an answer as the issue I see that needs to be opened is the vile tone of radio today and the need to degrade and insult rather than inform and entertain.

Cheers...

:hi:

[BronxBoy]

10. And it absolutely speaks to

where we are at as a country in that "insightful" political discourse has dropped to the level of insults and name calling.

[salin]

4. While I agree that a dialogue needs to happen

from what I have read among the 'defenders' - is a diminishing of the words said. And by extension thus the words uttered by his sidekick moments later (refering to the team as "jigaboos"), and by extension the long pattern of dehumanizing slurs dropped without blink of the eye during their rado/tv banter. Those defending do not seem to be in a place that is open to conversation. I hope I am wrong. You have written a very powerful statement - esp the second to last paragraph - perhaps that will capture the attention and open some of those minds to think and then to have a conversation. I hope that is the case.

Great post. Kick and Recommend.

[Bluerthanblue]

18. "get over it" is not an answer- I agree Salin. While Imus' career has many prior

incidents of hate speech and intolerant bigotry, there has to come a time when people say "enough".
And the discussion doesn't need to stop with his radio show stopping.

I also agree that the OP speaks profoundly in this post.!

It is an incredibly sad statement about our society that Imus gets the income he does for insulting people- while those who work to support and improve the lives of many often receive so little in comparison.

peace,
blu

[BronxBoy]

22. True

If I knew that being a smart ass would mark me as a person with superior political insight, I would have made that point to my mother when she was "adjusting" the smartass out of me.

LOL

[Bluerthanblue]

27. your Mom did well- I'm glad

she knows what's really valuable.:D

You do bring up another interesting point.
I read somewhere that Imus' childhood was pretty grim. If I recall correctly his father was a cruel alcoholic. Hate is a learned behaviour. "Knowing" what is 'right' is one thing- but the best teacher is a good example.

peace,
blu

[Morgana LaFey]

51. and most of the Imus defenders don't seem to be

black, and many of them arent' women (and shame on the ones who are). IOW, it's real easy to dismiss what Imus did if you're kind isn't the target.

[vssmith]

5. "To err is human, to forgive, divine"

[IndyOp]

9. It isn't about forgiving or not forgiving - it is about addressing a dangerous,

systemic pattern of behavior. Hate speech against one group opens the way for hate speech against many other groups. Hate speech leads to hate actions.

Racist incidents on the college campus where I work rose dramatically after Katrina - after the media flooded us with hateful commentary about the people trapped in New Orleans.

I want Imus made an example of and then I want all of us to root out this hatred from all of its current media sources and deal with it severely.

If Imus sounded sincere, then many could forgive him. Forgiving him doesn't mean that he gets to keep his job.

[BronxBoy]

13. But how do we do that?

I'm glad that this happened if for no other reason in that hopefully it will cause our community to take a harder line on how we are represented by others and jsut as importantly, how we depict ourselves. If Imus is fired, what does that mean in the overall scheme of things?

[vssmith]

19. Would his dismissal cure the systemic pattern of behavior?

I agree that that hate behavior must end but, I have ambivalent feelings about him keeping his job:

Is possible that if he is remorseful he could do a lot of good with the continuance of his show?

OR as you say:

Is it possible that others could learn from his dismissal?



P.S. I think Imus made some comments during Katrina that were positive.

[Morgana LaFey]

52. He's made the promises of doing good when confronted before

and then lapsed right back into his old behaviors. "Fool me once...." He's had several chances.

It can also be said that he can "do good" somewhere else. He no longer deserves that big a bully pulpit or the public trust.

[Bluerthanblue]

12. forgiving is good- but staying with an abusive spouse will get you killed- and

is in all honesty- doing a dis-service to both the victim and the abuser.

I can forgive Imus for his bigotry- what doesn't necessarily follow is continuing to give him a platform to "perform" on.

This is a very worthy thread-
It is good to think and discuss the things the continue to plague society.

peace
blu

[Toots]

25. How many time do you forgive the same infraction before asking for change?

He has been "forgiven" time and time again. When does it end?

[vssmith]

26. Seven times seventy

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. Good. You're on record.

Needless to say, you would apply this maxim as a universal.

We shall see.

[vssmith]

33. I never claimed to be divine

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. But you think it is a maxim to live by in most cases

This case, other cases, etc.

Good. We shall see whether you hold to it.

[vssmith]

35. I will try--is it a worthy goal?

Will you be gleeful to see me fail?

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. I will note ruefully that when you do fail

it will be an interesting contrast, and will say quite a bit about when you want this maxi m deployed, and when you can't stand to see it deployed.

Your failure will be no more cheered than any other diagnosis of a symptom.

[vssmith]

38. Keep an eye on me. I am sure I will need your diagnosis

and possibly prognosis.

Stay well,
Sam

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. The prognosis, paradoxically, is clear

...

[Buttercup McToots]

6. K&R

:radio:

[sasha031]

7. Imus and his entourage

Have said disgusting things about blacks and people on the left, and anyone in the corp MSM wants to target. You will hardly ever hear them say anything about the right.

That horrible skin head he has on his show, you can't get much more meaner than that.

There is a disgusting element of racism in this country, nothing has changed. Whether your Black ,Latino, Muslim and the MSM Military Industrial Complex Supports it.

I believe it's planned that way, to keep us separated so that theses creepy elites can rob the treasury , created endless wars ect.

There goal is to keep us divided and the ignorant public fall for it all the time, (with the exception of the enlightened ones)

As far as Imus's ranch or raising money for a hospital, Could it be he does this thing, so that when he looks in the mirror, he doesn't see the ugly tool for the right he his and he can pack himself on the back and say "See I'm wonderful"

True charitable people don't exploit their good deeds for self promotion.

OOOhh poor billionaire Imus :cry:

You are right on about Katrina, that awakened to see that the thought process in this country was worse than I expected.

[chimpymustgo]

15. Excellent reply to an excellent OP.

I'm kind of weary of the subject....have posted extensively. But truly, we can't stop. This IS important. It's NOT about one joke, one mistake.

K and R the thread.

[Cha]

44. Oh, YES, they want to divide us!

"I believe it's planned that way, to keep us separated so that theses creepy elites can rob the treasury , created endless wars ect."

[Laughing Mirror]

58. "placing emphasis on the momentary balm of charity ...

... rather than the long-term solution of justice." Norman Solomon was talking about sweat shops in this quote, but it works for the charity of the Imuses on national TV and radio as well.

[Celebration]

14. Here is what I hope happens

After the suspension, he comes back, but this does not die down. Advertisers will be boycotted, and the enablers (Andrea Mitchell, etc. that go on his show) will dessert him. I'd like to see this thing drawn out as long as possible.

He was trying to be 1/2 shock jock and 1/2 legitimate journalist. His legitimacy needs to be stripped.

[BronxBoy]

16. Your post goes to the crux of the issue

You can't be both. You're either a clown or you're a journalist.

But the line has been deeply blurred

[tblue37]

17. By pushing the envelope where speech is concerned, such

racist, sexist comments expand the range of what is considered allowable in polite company.

When I was growing up, among Whites it was considered normal, everyday speech to use the N-word. Sometimes it wasn't even intended in a bad way--it was just the word a lot of people used. But eventually, the word quite properly became forbidden in polite company. Now, most of us would be shocked if someone we knew casually dropped the N-word in conversation, because it just isn't done.

But by using racially (and sexually) abusive terms in the mainstream media, jerks like Imus domesticate the words and give them social cover so that for many they no longer seem so outrageous. And it is true that language shapes perception. Many decades ago, Benjamin Lee Whorf initiated the study of metalinguistics, the idea that what we can think depends to some degree on the categories our language provides, because language is a lens that shapes perception.

I very much agree that the use of such terms and of such degrading images of Black women in Black music, etc., is risky, because it also--though to a lesser degree, since it isn't the vehicle of the power structure--domesticates the language and the attitudes it embodies. It also gives cover to Whites who want to advance the melioration of formerly taboo language.

[Bluerthanblue]

20. Excellent thought provoking post BronxBoy-

K&R.

Your insight is very much appreciated.

peace,
blu

[theboss]

21. I just think Imus should be fired because he's not funny

And the simple fact that no one listens to him....

[BronxBoy]

23. That's what I don't understand

Does he really have a small audience? I really don't listen to him and have relied on comments made by other posters to get a sense of his show. But I thought the reason that the media wants to keep him around is that he has an entrenched audience. ( as scary as that may be)

[theboss]

29. He is 17th in New York morning shows

Nationally, he has something like 3.5 million listeners, but I think he is on 90 stations.

At his peak, Howard Stern had 13 million listeners and I think he only had 40 or so stations.

And from everything I've read, his audience is geriatric, which advertisers don't like.

I don't get how he is still around.

[Morgana LaFey]

54. what a sad thing to say

or really, pathetic is more like it.

The racism and sexism are okay with you, but somehow you're offended by his RATINGS and the fact that he's not funny?

I'm offended by your standards.

[theboss]

56. If you talk about race and sex in a funny way, yes, I'm cool with it

Howard Stern makes me laugh. Imus...not so much.

[Morgana LaFey]

57. That's not "talking about" race and sex, that's using race and sex

as powerful weapons to demean and denigrate individual members and entire classes of people -- in the case of sex, over half the whole damn human race. Perhaps you've forgotten: racism kills ... sexism kills ... homophobia kills.

Perhaps it meant nothing to you (since it was women, and mostly black women at that) that the Rutgers athletes targeted by Imus's so-called humor were hurt by his attack. I was particularly touched by the comments from one that he stole their moment -- he took something they'd worked hard for and had some rather stunning success at, and ruined it for them. Do YOU think that it's okay for that to happen JUST BECAUSE they are black and women?? Do YOU think Imus has the inherent right -- bastard white boy that he is with his vaunted sense of entitlement and white male privilege -- to DO that to people, to black female people?

Here's what Molly Ivins had to say about humor:

There are two kinds of humor. One kind that makes us chuckle about our foibles and our shared humanity -- like what Garrison Keillor does.
The other kind holds people up to public contempt and ridicule -- that's what I do. Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel -- it's vulgar. -- Molly Ivins

Racism and sexism are NOT laughing matters, bub. Not at all. Pity you're cool with them, though. Real pity. If someone needs to find "humor" in racism and sexism, it's typically because they need people -- whole classes oe people -- to look down on in order to feel better about themselves.

[theboss]

61. Denigrating people is not funny

What Imus did was not funny. Therefore, he failed in his mission as a comic. That is probably why his ratings stink. Which is why he should be fired.

I am in favor of firing Imus, because I am in favor of the free market. And it is inexplicable to me as to why his show is in 90 markets.

Look, if you've ever listened to Imus for more than ten minutes, you will find that his entire act is nothing but attacking people. It's cruel and stupid and unfunny. He is a bitter, talentless old man. He should have been sent back to New Mexico ten years ago.

Racism and sexism are not laughing matters. But race and sex are. There is a reason that every comic on Def Comedy Jam did the same "White people do things this way/Black people do things this way" joke. Because it is funny.

There is a reason every male comic does the same "My wife busts my balls" joke. Because it is funny.

Our differences whether they be racial, sexual, gender...um...al are funny.

The real issue here is about power. Imus has a few million listeners and he used his forum to attack a group of people than 99 percent of the country has never thought of. It's along the lines of what should be a big media scandal this week - Colin Cowherd destroying a small sports blog because he could. Broadcasters who are given that power need to respect it.

If you want further proof of the power issue, it is this. Oprah Winfrey is fair game for jokes, attacks, what have you. As is Condi Rice. A black single mother working a minimum wage job is not.

[Karenina]

24. BronxBoy hits another one out of the park!

He doesn't post often :-( but when he does.... K&R!!!

[Dave From Canada]

28. Howard Stern said it correctly yesterday, Imus should have said

F*ck you, i't s joke. Bill Maher also had a good take on it. Once you apologize, it's not on you anymore, it's on everybody else. They can accept it, or not.

I tend to agree.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. he did initially- but the problem was, it isn't a joke to him-

and many "jokes" - especially the cutting destructive ones, are only the ugly personal beliefs of the 'jokester', wearing a clown mask.

It is ON Imus-
he owns his foot.
he can chew on it till he learns something.

[Morgana LaFey]

53. And Howard Stern is wrong

and a sexist (and probably racist) ass to boot.

[Laughing Mirror]

60. Is a joke a joke if nobody laughs at it?

Well maybe, but a bad joke at that. Imus realized the joke defense wouldn't work -- who could laugh at such a thing? -- and then offered his apology. If you accept his apology you may then take action so that he doesn't come back around trying to apologize to you for doing the same thing again.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. Great post

Cuts through a lot of bullshit on both sides.

The apologists also fail to mention that there is lively debate within the black community and the hip hop community more specifically about hip hop lyrics and lifestyle. For every 50 Cent, you have a Mos Def or Talib Kweli. These debates don't have the familiar contours that many white, non-hip hop fans imagine, and they have been going on for many years.

I generally find that the people to jump up immediately yelling that rap promotes misogyny and violence and racism and homophobia don't know the first thing about rap, and - indeed - openly profess to despise it. As I heard Talib Kweli say lately, if you're not down by law, you really have low credibility to criticize.

[BronxBoy]

43. I think part of the answer

is that Black people are more familiar with mainstream vehicles of communication and Whites, even progressive ones, may not be as familiar with our media. If you listen to any Black media for any length of time, you would know that these conversations are being held within the Black community. A lot of people don't know that there is a nascent syndicated network strictly devoted to Black talk radio.

So not having that knowledge I think leads people to believe that whatever they hear from Sharpton or Jackson represents the full range of Black opinion on a particular issue.

[Catherine Vincent]

40. Well stated, my friend.

:thumbsup:

:kick:

[BronxBoy]

41. The Team

just gave a press conference on CNN. I had to go on the road and caught most of it.

I think everyone shod hear as it speaks to what these young ladies are experiencing.

[Wednesdays]

42. Wow! This is one fantastic piece of writing

I honestly thought I was reading a professional op-ed and I was looking for the link at the bottom.

K&R to the max! :kick:

[Done]

45. K & R

[mzmolly]

46. One of the best posts ever.

Thanks for your thoughtful candor. As a women, I can relate to being considered "less than human" in our current society, and I thank you for honestly examining that issue in your post.

[salin]

47. kicking - because the evening crew needs the oppty

to read this.

[schrodingers_cat]

48. Without tapping too much into what DU is thinking today, this is what I wrote to MSNBC:

"Dear TV service providers at MSNBC:
Allow me to join the growing ranks of viewers that refuse to tolerate the baldfaced bigotry and sexism displayed by your morning show host Imus. This is not the first time that I have been bothered by him enough to surf on by in the morning, but these latest comments on his part, to the effect of "nappy-headed ho's", are beyond egregiously wrong. I will not tolerate commentary on my television that would be considered against the law in the environment that I spend most of my day in, and blasphemous in the community that I spend my private hours in. Hearing this story literally made me feel sick to my stomach.
That you have merely suspended this individual, rather than firing him outright, shows me that your network is complicit in the implied acceptance of this behavior. due to this, I can no longer support your network as a viewer. This is unfortunate, the news show that I most closely follow is also on your network. What tragic pity that in the 21st century, people of this hateful, vengeful type are granted access to (and are indeed paid handsomely to sit in front of) such a public microphone.
Please count me among the ranks of former viewers, until the day that this person has had his contract with your corporation terminated.

Respectfully yours,

XXXXX "

I guess the strongest feeling that I'm having with all of this is the lack of consequence that this man will experience - people that I know work in the field of adolescent psychology, and one model that they agree on is that these kids need to understand cause, effect, and consequence. I don't see enough consequence here. Not near enough.

[salin]

49. While there may be a lack of consequence... relating this back

to the OP - maybe some thought is being provoked (because of the hullaballo that gets even long-time listeners/viewers to think about it). This morning to the OP on this thread I was skeptical. But this thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x621077 made me realize that while Imus has had this problem for a long time, the bruhaha around this incident may be getting folks to talk and think and perhaps be interest to the deeper conversations that the OP suggests.

Your letter is a strong statement. Good for you. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Enough voices like yours, and perhaps there will not only eventually be consequences for using such a powerful podium to throw out dehumanizing insults. Maybe sponsors of hosts of even more regularly hate-mongering voices (Michael Savage comes to mind) will have more second thoughts.

Interesting times.

Interesting story to watch playing out.

[Morgana LaFey]

55. Superb post, valuable insights. Thanks. nt