There's something wrong with charging 40,000 dollars a year to attend a university...

[armyowalgreens]

I'll admit, I wasn't at the top of my high school class. I hovered right inside the top 15 percent. I graduated with a GPA of 3.75 and received a complete tuition waiver to any in-state university.

The issue is that I do not feel like I am getting the best education possible at ASU. It's a decent school. But compared to others, it just doesn't stack up.

One of my friends from the honors college just transfered to Georgetown with the same freshman GPA that I had. Which leads me to believe that I could probably make it into Georgetown as well.

But how in the world could I ever dream of affording 40,000 dollar a year tuition? That's soooo far out of my price range it's laughable. My parents, combined, make maybe 65,000 a year?

If I could get 160,000 dollars worth of student loans, I would do it in a heart beat. Unfortunately, no bank is going to loan me that much. At this point, I don't even know how I'm going to pay for law school after I graduate.


Is it bad that students are held back because of their financial situation? I think so. If a student is willing to put forth the effort, they deserve the best education possible.

My dream is to attend Berkley for law. I'll have to bust my ass and pray a law firm or law school likes me enough to help me pay.

[MrModerate]

1. "If a student is willing to put forth the effort, they deserve the best education possible." . . .

Millions and millions are willing to put forth the effort, and there are only places for thousands and thousands. Most will not get the "best possible" no matter what. Also, "best" is usually associated with the faculty more than the facilities or the administration. Those members of the "best" faculty insist, not unreasonably, that they be paid mass quantities for their time and the distinction they lend to the students who get to study with them. Hence, $40,000 a year.

It's a hard world, but wishing for it ain't gonna make it better.

[armyowalgreens]

2. That isn't entirely true...

Let's say I apply for Georgetown next spring and I am accepted. That means there is enough space for me, and the school wants me to attend.

The only thing keeping me from attending is the money. And that's what it boils down to. Cold hard cash.


I think chocking it up to "competition" is being a bit disingenuous. I'm sure there are plenty of morons with money that make it into ivy league schools. Just look at our previous president.

Based on my observations and experiences, there isn't a lot of effort being made to better the faculty or resources at a lot of public universities. I happen to attend a university that is slowly being driven into the ground by our state legislator.

It's not that we cannot provide a better education for more students. The truth simply is that we refuse to.

[Adsos Letter]

3. The CSU system is top notch (Davis, Berkeley, UCLA, etc.)...

but our Governator just raised tuitions 20%, capped admissions, and cut staffing. Our state deficit (26 BILLION dollars) is gonna' destroy us.

I have no idea what the cost for out-of-state students is, but my oldest daughter attended UC Davis for her undergrad in Neurobiology/Psychology, and ranked very well in her placements for Medical school.

[MrModerate]

7. The UC system is (or was) very good. Just shows that money isn't the only thing . . .

But (as in many other areas) California is sui generis. Which is not to say that there aren't lots of top-tier state universities around the country. The OP seems fixated on Georgetown, though, and so might go through life with a broken heart.

[KamaAina]

95. UC != CSU

Davis, Berkeley and UCLA are part of the University of California system. The CSU system includes San Francisco State, Fresno State, San Diego State, and a host of others. Some CSUs are also quite good (for instance, my new BFF did her graduate degree in sexuality studies (!!!), presumably summa cum laude :loveya: , at SF State), but it's two separate systems. The major difference is that CSUs generally do not offer doctoral degrees (Fresno got an exception because, before UC Merced just opened, there was no UC in the Central Valley).

edit: spelling

[Adsos Letter]

4. whoops

[Adsos Letter]

5. whoops redux

[MrModerate]

6. Sure there's space for you -- if you pony up the cash.

Sheer merit is not the only criterion.

Legacy morons? I'm sure there are plenty, although I never personally ran across one. Even Bush turned in his homework much of the time.

As far as shortcomings of funding and vision in various state universities . . . sure, you betcha. But that's one reason why you can have millions of places in universities in the US, but not all of them are the best.

[armyowalgreens]

9. What is the "criteria"?

If it isn't merit, what is it?

It's simply ridiculous to assume that it should be anything other than merit.

I also disagree with your assumption that there are millions upon millions of kids competing against each other for top spots. The reality is that the majority of high school students have no desire to compete for top spots. The top spots are held by a few students.

ASU had it's budget slashed, this year, because the legislator didn't want to cut anything else.

States are not investing nearly enough money in higher education. If they did, we would have more schools, and the population would be smarter as a whole. Which would mean that we would have better professors and teachers to fill these schools.

[Selatius]

10. Connections? George W. Bush wouldn't have gotten anywhere if it weren't for his family name.

His father and grandfather got him in the door.

[Adsos Letter]

12. I think you may not be factoring in one very relevant contingent...

and that is foreign students. Many foreign students come to top-flight US schools exceptionally well prepared and competitive. When my daughter attended UC Davis a very large percentage of students were from Japan, China, etc.

[lolly]

82. Private universities

Can make their admission criteria anything they want, pretty much.

It's only public schools that have to be accountable for definable admissions standards.

[MrModerate]

129. It's clearly merit plus money. There may be other criteria.

What it "should" be versus what it is, is the subject of an entirely different conversation, specifically, educational reform and the funding thereof.

Also, before determining how many people are competing for top spots, you'd have to define "top." What precisely do you mean by that term? IMO, there are many "prestige" universities where the education is not notably superior to what you can get in a reasonably good state school. In fact, the difference between engineering at MIT and engineering at Colorado State University (just to pull two out of the hat) is not huge. But the difference in prestige is vast.

You seem to think that Georgetown has that prestige versus some other school offering an equivalent program -- and you may well be right. But you will be expected to pay to rub shoulders with the students whose parents come up with the tuition out of the change they find in the cushions of their Louis Quinze sofa. Sorry.

[quaker bill]

99. It is not fair

but it never was and it is not about to become so. No matter what system you adopt, those with more resources will always have more opportunities.

We can do better, but even if we do, it will still not be fair.

[MilesColtrane]

118. And thus, in that respect, college is a realistic introduction to the rest of your life.

[stray cat]

71. Only the best students on merit - if you make the cut great. Effort alone means nothing

[Occulus]

81. Go here, take a look at this

https://www.kalamazoopromise.com/

This should be a national program.

[Lorien]

84. Millions? Hardly. Faculty paid mass quantities? WHERE?

It's a hard and greedy world, and yes, it CAN be made better. Other countries do it, hence, we can too.

[MilesColtrane]

119. Maybe by "faculty" they meant administrators and football coaches?

[MrModerate]

130. 17 million US college students in 2003 . . .

Average Harvard prof salary: $151,000.

Maybe that's not mass quantities (I make more and I'm just a technical manager). But still, it's enough to make colleges pretty expensive when you consider that the majority of employees (or at least a substantial chunk of 'em) are professors.

[Yupster]

111. The cost of college goes up way faster than the cost of inflation, and

I never hear any discussion of it.

Where's the $ 40,000 going? Professors don't make that much.

[armyowalgreens]

112. I know that some ASU professors making 150K+ per year...

They make a ton of money. And that doesn't even include book sales.

[Yupster]

125. That's way more than I would have guessed

I was thinking $ 50 - 60 k

[Diane R]

8. The 'best education' doesn't have to be at a private university.

I don't know. I think you are fortunate to get the tuition waiver. Our three boys all graduated with 3.9 and above, and no one got a waiver from their university.

My husband and I just finished putting our sons through the University of Washington. One then went through the UW's Dental school, and another is in the Peace Corps. They got excellent educations, and it didn't cost $40,000 a year. I think it's a mistake for young people to amass huge amount of debt at private colleges...public schools are doing a good job. I think a lot depends on the student. Nearly every state has a top university...would AU be better than ASU? I think you would regret going to Georgetown and leaving with a massive debt load. I wouldn't want my own kids to do that.

As far as law school 'liking you enough to help you pay'. My son who became a dentist got zero financial aid for Dental school and we didn't help pay for it. He financed all of it with loans. Yes, he's got a lot of loans to pay back, but his salary is good enough that he's having no problem. I don't know if you should plan on getting 'help' with law school; you might need to plan on having to pay for it yourself.

Personally, I think college students who attend public universities should be grateful that so much of their costs are paid by taxpayers. Even with rising tuition costs, it's still a good deal. I'm not convince that every private school is better than every public school. At the risk of sounding harsh, I'd say you should count your blessings, study hard, and you'll do well in life regardless of where you attend college.

[EFerrari]

11. But the poster is right. Public universities are not affordable any more.

It's not only private schools, the public ones are just about beyond the reach of most people too, now.

[Adsos Letter]

15. That is even becoming true for the CSU system...

many students here are opting for 2 year Junior Colleges for their GE requirements, then transferring to CSU (or UC, if they take the UC-track courses).

[JI7]

18. there ARE many students who go to CSU or even UCs who never took Calculus

and some other courses they should take in order to get into 4 year school.

[Adsos Letter]

22. I pretty sure the math requirement for CSU GE includes calculus now...

and some JC's are better than others.

Still, if you can go 4 year all the way, you are probably better off...except for the initial cost.

[JI7]

29. you mean required to graduate from csu ?

i'm talking about it being required to get admitted into csu.

[Adsos Letter]

32. No, I'm talking about admittance.

[JI7]

35. i'm pretty sure you still don't need it to get admitted

i think that's true of many colleges though.

[Adsos Letter]

43. You are keerect!

I just checked...Algebra, Geometry, Intermediate Algebra, total of 3 years.

I stand happily corrected.

Sitting, actually...


.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

74. Not in all majors

[EFerrari]

20. I could not afford Cal today as I managed to in 1985.

It would be impossible. In fact, I wanted to go back for one year to get an MA in a different field. Can't -- there's no money for it anywhere. What do you guys do any more? Grants cut back, loans are now ridiculous and tuition keeps going up. :(

[armyowalgreens]

21. You make a good point. Bushco totally destroyed the grant system.

I think the situation would be better if there were more grant programs.

[EFerrari]

23. Have you scouted for scholarships? I bought a list

and applied to several, got two. That paid for my whole first year.

Hang in there, army. :hi:

[armyowalgreens]

Yeah I continue to apply online.

In fact I may search for a few more right now.

Thanks for the encouragement.
:pals:

[EFerrari]

26. I loved my years at Berkeley. It's a great place.

If that's what you want, decide to do it. They let people in every year, one of them might as well be you. :hi:

[Adsos Letter]

25. The UC/CSU system is under serious pressure from California's financial situation.

My youngest daughter got a Presidential Scholarship to La Sierra University this year (equivalent to about $40,000 tuition) which we never could have afforded otherwise.

[EFerrari]

30. Unbelievable. I think my tuition WENT UP TO 10K sometime

during my later grad years. At 40K -- who is going to school any more?

But, good for your daughter! Getting those awards is a lot of hard work. You must be very proud of her. :)

[Adsos Letter]

36. She had quite a lot of personal accomplishment going into it, plus the grades.

And they only gave out one this year, so we feel pretty fortunate.

And proud... :)

[stray cat]

72. 6000 a year or less at some state schools

[armyowalgreens]

13. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a difference...

between the quality of education at a higher ranked school compared to a lower ranked school.

I am not receiving the same education that I could be receiving at a place like Penn State (which is public).

Should there be that difference? Absolutely not.

The way that the higher ranked schools handle each major and the material being taught is not on the same level as many lower ranking schools.

Private or public, it still costs a ton of money to attend a top ranked school.


I don't really give a damn about public or private. I just feel like I'm not being challenged enough at ASU.

[Adsos Letter]

16. What is your major, and what year are you?

[armyowalgreens]

19. My majors are Political Science and Philosophy. I'm a sophomore.

[Sophree]

132. You get what you put into it

I also attended UW as an undergrad. My grades were not so good my first two years, the last two were better. My parents paid my way through undergrad and even offered to pay for grad. school, but I didn't know what I wanted to do and I didn't want to waste their money. One of my younger brothers was at Western and my youngest brother had just started as a Freshman at UW.

Now I'm in grad school at the University of South Florida, where they have a reputable, though admittedly not the best, in terms of "prestige," program in the field I am going into. It is one of the relatively few programs in the country. I work my butt off and have over a 3.9 GPA. I'm utilizing financial aid and have a Graduate Assistantship, which pays my tuition, so that may have something to do with it- I appreciate it more.

Point is, you get out of school what you put into it. All of the Pac 10 schools are excellent and you don't need to be in the Ivy league to get a great education. I completely agree with you- work and study hard and you'll get out of it what you put into it.

If the OP has set his mind on Georgetown Law, go for it. If you get in, then financial aid, as well as GA/TA positions are available. You will be in debt, but at least not as much as you would have transferred there as an undergrad.

Good luck!

[JI7]

14. what's your problem with ASU ?

[armyowalgreens]

17. My major relevent courses have been a joke so far...

I'm a political science and philosophy major. It could be that those programs haven't been developed relative to others.

I know my friends who are engineering and business majors have enjoyed their classes.

The only classes I have enjoyed have been with the honors college.

It just seems like they dumb down the classes to accommodate others.

[JI7]

24. how do you know that wont be the case if you go to Georgetown ?

or some other school which is considered "tops" ?

are you taking introductory courses so far ? maybe that's why they seem to easy.

have you taken calculus or statistics yet ?

[armyowalgreens]

27. I've taken statistics. I loved that class. I have not taken Calc...

I have never planned on taking it. It never seemed relevant to my education.

I've tried taking upper division classes, but my advisors won't let me. I'm taking a couple 300 levels classes this semester and I should move into the 400 levels classes next semester.

It could be chocked up to the intro classes. But the upper division classes don't seem very diverse. Maybe I'm just being too picky. Who knows. This could all be complete bullshit.

[Adsos Letter]

31. Well, as far as diversity of upper division classes goes...

that may be dependent on the size of the department.

[JI7]

33. i think that's just the way some social science classes might be

do you do things like debate, discuss etc ? including on controversial issues ?

is there something specific you want from the classes that you aren't getting or is it that you just feel it's too easy ?

[armyowalgreens]

38. I feel it's too easy, and I'm not getting intelligent discussion in class...

I try to have debates and discussions, but no one gives a damn.

It just feels like I go to class, sit there as the professor writes bullet points on the board and then read a chapter from the text. It's pretty boring. I learn more from personal investigation than from actual classes.


But I have a feeling this is a problem more prevalent in the political science department. It just doesn't seem like ASU gives a damn about it.

[EFerrari]

40. What you might consider is transferring out to Cal as a Junior.

That gives you plenty of time to pull resources together and yeah, you won't be bored there. Plus, once you're there, you have contacts who can write letters for you when you apply to Boalt.

[armyowalgreens]

42. That's what I've been thinking about.

My neighbor to the west is looking mighty friendly. I have a little over a year to get the resources. I think I can do it.

[EFerrari]

46. A year is enough time. And even if CA is a mess right now

Berkeley will still have more financial aid than most public universities.

[JI7]

45. who are the other students in your class ?

are they social science majors ? in the same area as you ?

or are they just taking it as a requirement but their interest is in something else like physical sciences, business etc ?

have you talked to the professors about any of this and did they show any interest in doing what you wanted or even just discussing what you might want ?

if you really feel you aren't getting what you want and can get better somewhere else i would suggest you transfer.

yes, tuition will be high , but you are usually given more time in paying back student loans. and you may feel it was worth it.

but personally i don't think there will be much difference somewhere else. you will still feel you are getting more from outside stuff you do. but that's true of many things. especially in the social science area where things aren't always so clear as in math and physical sciences.

if you want to go to Berkeley for Law than just do well at ASU, study very hard for the LSAT so you can get into Berkeley andother law schools.

maybe take a few classes outside of your major . maybe those will give you what you want more than the classes you are taking now.

[MilesColtrane]

121. "I learn more from personal investigation than from actual classes."

I attended one of the most highly regarded schools for my field of study and I found that the most valuable things learned were split at least 50/50 between classes, labs, coursework and personal studies outside of those.

Outside studies included interactions with other students, and this didn't really take off until I moved into a dorm.

As you said, many times students in some of my classes don't seem to give a shit either.
It took living among many different types of people for me to find the ones who did care. That's when my learning took off, when I was able to find and pick the brains of students who were as obsessed as I was.

Classes do get more interesting as you progress, and not all teachers are droners.

I think the most valuable thing I learned in college was how to teach myself.

[alcibiades_mystery]

107. Then you're lazy

You have to make the class work for you.

Do the extra readings in the textbook bibliography. Go talk to the professors once a week. Follow out research links. Education is not a commodity to be poured from the professor into the empty receptacle of the student. You have to GO and GET IT. The classes are a structured means toward that end. But they are not the end in itself.

You seem to be expecting something that doesn't exist, in Georgetown or anywhere else. There is no freeze dried education. You actually have to DO IT.

[Odin2005]

120. That's the way it is everywhere.

Freshman-level, and to a lesser extent sophomore-level classes are dumbed-down EVERYWHERE. Indeed, I'll suggest that the "top" schools may be even more dumbed down in some ways because of the use of TAs for low-level classes and because such colleges attract achievement/status-driven people who only care about getting the diploma and the name of the institution on it ("Look, I graduated from Yale, aren't I special and better than YOU.") rather than actually learning anything, and thus there is pressure by the universities on the faculty towards dumbing down and grade-inflation because of self-centered students that think their tuition entitles them to a good grade.

[exboyfil]

28. You should feel fortunate to get the tuition waiver

Only the top 5% or so of students graduating from Iowa schools can get a comparable ride (usually they also have to do very well on the National Merit Scholars program - semifinalist for example).

Iowa students are coming out with some of the highest indebtedness of any public school graduates (ISU is like number 1 or 2 at over $31K). Given that instate tuition is a fairly low $6,400/yr., then either most kids are getting little or no financial aid outside of loans (which is the case), their parents are not helping much (which seems likely given my particular financial circumstances), or they are really living high on the hog in college (which I don't think is happening in general). My daughter wants to be a Vet, and, trust me, I have pushed the numbers several times for what it will take (my conclusion is she will need to live at home at the undergraduate level and graduate in three years to even make this a starter).

Being a product of a public university (Purdue) I cannot say whether attending a Ivy League/elite institution will make a difference at the undergraduate level. I have known many individuals who have gotten public school undergraduate degrees that have gone on to succeed at the graduate/professional level at more elite universities.

You have probably missed your shot to go to an elite university by not being accepted/negotiating with one during high school. Unless you bring something special to the university (ie help with diversity, have some special background/accomplishment/sport, or a very high academic performance) they are not going to help you out.

Georgetown et al can charge $40K/yr because that is what the market will bare. Actually the full cost of most public university tuitions range from $15-$25K (the state etc picks up the difference). Where does the 2x go? I don't think they are spending twice as much per student than flagship public schools.

[EFerrari]

34. Sometimes it's easier to get into those schools as a junior transfer. nt

[exboyfil]

57. Getting in is different than paying the full rack rate

of $40K/yr.

[EFerrari]

59. They can go together. Those schools have more financial aid

to offer than schools that cost less so you can wind up paying less to go to a better school.

[JI7]

37. this is not true, there are many people who transfer to more elite colleges

after doing 2 years at some other college including jr colleges.

[exboyfil]

56. Do they get the same financial package as those starting out

as freshman? I can believe that lots do this route (it is done all the time for cost in public schools as well). At the end of the day the name on the sheepskin is all that matters. My point is that, if you want to avoid paying the full rack rate ($40K/yr) you best negotiating time is when you are still in High School. Maybe I am wrong, but that has been my experience in the past.

[1]

39. there are plenty of schools that do not require such debt or loans...

a university degree is within reach of almost anyone.

what is the problem?

[armyowalgreens]

41. It seems as though not all degrees are equal.

It's not that a give a damn about the name of the college or the degree. I just want to learn. I want to learn as much as possible.

[Adsos Letter]

44. I think I understand your frustration pretty well...

my lower division History courses were boredom on the end of a stick, upper division was much, much better, and the Graduate courses were very, very good (and the upper division and Graduate courses were also quite challenging, and all taught by PhD's from top-flight schools.

I suspect that once you hit upper-division things will improve...but I admit, I don't know your school.

And, some degrees do count for more than others when applying to grad schools.

[1]

60. and you think regurgitating what all before you have is a way to learn as much as possible?

in some named university? is that what you think learning is?


you need to recalibrate your idea about learning.

and maybe never set foot on a university.

the phd crowd here, you know, those driving taxis for a living might disagree.

[Bonn1997]

100. Maybe you can inquire about becoming a research assistant for one of your professors and

tell them you want to work hard and learn a lot.

[Bonn1997]

102. Also, there are lots of schools in Montgomery and within an hour. You could contact professors at

those other schools about volunteer RA opportunities if nothing works out at ASU or if you want to expand your contacts. In addition to it being a great learning experience, these are people who will be writing law school recommendation letters for you.

[RoyGBiv]

47. Interesting discussion ...

It seems to me almost all of this is based on your "feeling" about things.

You say you're a sophomore. How many upper-division classes have you taken? Have you gone to your major advisor and told him of your concerns? Have you attempted to request independent study coursework?

Did you know that ASU's poli-sci department is ranked in the top 50? This varies from year to year. It wanders around between mid 40's to low 50's, but it's always ranked.

Georgetown, which you mentioned, is typically near #30.

One of the best schools to attend is University of Michigan, which is usually in the top-5.

Harvard is consistently ranked 1st or 2nd. It fights with Stanford for that honor.

I know some of your professors, FWIW. I am certain that some of them would be quite keen on assisting you make your experiences more challenging if you want them to be. You just need to talk to them.

[armyowalgreens]

50. hmmm I'll have to go back in and talk with my advisor again...

She seemed surprised that my GPA was so high for a freshman (3.6). I thought I did poorly. I plan on hunkering down this coming year and getting a 4.0.


Maybe I had a few bad professors. But I'll definitely talk with them this next year if I feel like I'm not being challenged. I did attempt to have a discussion with one professor, last year, on a certain topic. But it's hard to have discussions in a class of 500.


I can sign "honors contracts". They are affiliated with my honors college and basically I can do one for almost any class. It involves completing an extra project for the class. I've done one so far.

[RoyGBiv]

58. There's part of your problem ...

When you're in those classes with 10 billion people, the experience isn't quite what it could be.

I went to a regional state university. My favorite poli-sci professor there talked about this a lot. He had taught at Stanford for a number of years, went on to Purdue for some reason I don't remember, and then just got fed up with the "publish or die" rat race as he got older and "retired" to a regional school in Oklahoma.

He loved it primarily because class size was so small. He had relationships with his students. His classes were *hard* and most people hated him because of that, but you learned a lot if you were one of those left standing at the end of the semester.

Some of the problems remained and will be there no matter where you go. According to him and a number of professors I know who teach in everything from large private universities to community colleges, in the lower level classes, the professors are tasked with dealing with sometimes hundreds of students who have to take the class for their core curriculum. Those aren't exactly dumbed down (although they can be, especially at the community college level), but they are different than the classes that only major and minor students take.

It's like this is many disciplines that fall under the humanities label. I *hated* my survey courses in history for example (I minored in poli-sci and English, FWIW), but when I got up to the other classes, I had a lot more fun. Plus, I had self-directed study, did a senior thesis, took seminars, etc.

Anyway ... hang in there. I agree with your initial premise, btw, but when it comes to dealing with the hand we're dealt (I was one of those people who was accepted to more prestigious institutions and simply couldn't afford to go) there are ways to make the most of it. One of my fellow students is now completing her PhD at Rice, a very prestigious school for history, which she has been attending on a full-assistantship.

[Odin2005]

113. That's why I like the small public liberal arts university I go to.

Minnesota State University Moorhead. Little school with good teachers and a great biosciences department. full-time tuition is about $5,000 a year. No dealing with TAs in low-level classes, it's almost all people with PhDs teaching the classes.

[XemaSab]

90. If you hate big classes

don't go to Cal.

[Number23]

62. Correction: Georgetown is consistently ranked as one of the top 25 universities in this country

As an alum, just thought I'd correct you on that (minor) point.

[RoyGBiv]

63. Speaking specifically of the poli-sci department ...

Last year it was #28.

[Number23]

108. Oh, okay. Thanks for the clarification!

[aquart]

48. Queens College gave me a better education than Columbia.

What it didn't have was the power elite network.

[JI7]

49. yup, McCain's daughter went to Columbia

and we have seen how educated she is from her public appearances.

McCain himself got into the Naval Academy just because of his dad.

[TomClash]

61. Columbia is an outstanding school and provides an amazing education

IMHO

[aquart]

66. Haven't been to Queens, have you?

[TomClash]

126. I've been to Queens

But not the college.

[Hannah Bell]

64. the best science teacher i ever had was in community college. same deal.

otoh, the worst, most bogus english course i ever took was at the university of washington.

[Adsos Letter]

51. I just re-read yer OP....

the only thing I can see that would stop you from being competetive for Berkeley would be the caps on admissions that the state is imposing now, because of our budget deficit.

And I admit that I don't know how that is impacting Boalt Hall.

[armyowalgreens]

52. ***Thanks for the info and words of encouragement guys***

:grouphug:

[JI7]

53. if you really want a learning experience, i suggest you do some travel/study thing

you will find some programs from your school. but you can even do it on your own. just pick any other place to visit and talk to the people there. experience culture, life etc.

as a student you will get discounts on airline tickets.

go away from the touristy areas into the areas where most people live.

[armyowalgreens]

54. I want to travel next summer.

I cannot afford school sponsored travel abroad programs. They run around 10 Gs for 6 weeks. It's ridiculous.


I'm sure I could plan my own trip for a few grand. I think I could afford that.

[JI7]

55. yes, they are usually way too expensive

and you will probably get more out of going on your own anyways. with the school groups you might end up hanging around with each other .

if you go on your own or with a friend or 2 you will be more likely to interact with the people of the place you visit.

[aikoaiko]

65. In general, you have to work harder to get the same level of education at large state schools..

...compared to smaller, elite private schools.

State school faculty have many more students, usually more classes, less well paid and that impacts the faculty-student relationships.

But with effort and selective choosing of faculty you can develop a faculty-student mentorship that will involve being a research assistant or classroom assistant.

I generally advise students to avoid big debt for college. Total debt at graduation should not be more than 1/2 their starting salary.

[a la izquierda]

67. Don't know if it's been said...

but don't even think about private loans. Dumbest move ever. I've paid for a BA, MA and the fees for my PhD myself--my parents didn't help out, so I'm 90K in debt, after 11 years of school. It'll get paid. If you're not getting a 4.0 at ASU, work harder. You won't get scholarships for law school, but you can at least get into a good state school...which is cheaper than you think.

I feel bad for law school folks, you guys can't even get TA stipends. Then again, you don't have to write dissertations either...

[mopinko]

68. i'd like to return to art school now that my kids are grown, but that kind of

money is just laughable to spend at 55 on an education that is probably never going to bring me a dime.
at least you are young, and you will have earning potential.

[stray cat]

69. Like taxing the wealthy - let the student pay it if they want too - brings money to the school

to subsidize those who can't pay. We could do it like India - if you make the top cut in the the qualifying exams in high school you get a free ride othewise if you miss that top competitive job you are out of luck and need to find a job that doesnt require school. Pretty stressful - but it selects only the best and takes care of them - a pure merit system.

[stray cat]

70. In a merit system like India and China you might have qualified for a low tier school

it doesn't sound like you would have been able to attend the top schools but if you scored higher on the qualifying exams given to every student in high school you might have gotten into a top university - but only the best in scores go to school. It definitely makes kids take tests seriously because if you don't do well enough you don't get another chance at an advanced education. If you have money you can pay for a private school - but they are all considered 2nd rate because money is involved.

[Celebration]

73. Can't you just transfer to the honors college?

Honestly, I think "name" colleges are overrated. Often the undergrads get TAs anyway, and, though you might get a good one, it is kind of a crap shoot.

If your classes aren't challenging enough, ask for outside reading. Usually your professors will comply with that.

You should be able to get your hands on reviews of professors from other students. Use that as a guide to select your courses.

[GoesTo11]

75. Don't be an idiot.

Save your money.

1) You can learn as much as you want on your own outside of class. Go to a library, read the classics. Read more. Talk about what you read online or over coffee with one or two really smart friends.

2) Freshman courses with 400 students are not supposed to be that challenging. At junior and senior level, that disappears even at state schools (private schools can have an edge w/smaller frosh classes). Also, a lot of the weaker students drop out.

3) Take an independent study course each semester with a prof you like and get customized learning.

4) Be pro-active about defining the projects you work on. Suggest something more interesting as an alternative to something routine.

5) Travel on your own. Definitely. Stay in hostels, work a few hours in them for your room and board. You'll learn far more hanging out in the lounge with the interesting people you'll meet that way than you will going on a totally organized overseas program with a bunch of clone rich kids. I was overseas recently, and it was funny to watch the groups of US college students going through cities just talking to each other (in English, of course) about who took whose lipgloss, that kind of crap.

6) If you want high challenge of a top-ranked school, do it in grad school and do it on someone else's dime - either as a doctoral student with a fellowship, a master's student with a teaching assistantship, as a part time student with your company paying the way - one easy route to this is to get a job at a university that lets employees take classes for free.

Good luck developing that eager mind of yours.

[jberryhill]

76. Excellent points...

Particularly the part about grad school.

If one's academic plans extend beyond a four year degree, then don't sweat the undergrad school.

[LuckyLib]

92. Excellent advice. Take advantage of what your university offers in the way of the

hidden curriculum -- lectures, undergraduate research opportunities to work with faculty (every university has them)and independent studies.

Don't know if this has been mentioned, but your advisor's surprise at your high grades comes from his/her experience with other students: ASU is known nationally as a party school, and there are a number of students there who are "going through the motions" -- academic motions being low on the priority list. Serious students are appreciated by faculty at all colleges and universities and you can find the folks who are energized by learning in the same way you are. Georgetown is about future networking and connections. You can establish your own credibility for far less money by taking care of business wherever you are.

[armyowalgreens]

109. Thanks for the info.

That seems to be the general trend of information. Don't waste money on an undergrad. Save it for grad school. Which makes sense.

[Posteritatis]

114. (delete - meant to reply to top level)

[Raspberry]

77. You said--

"If a student is willing to put forth the effort, they deserve the best education possible."

That's true, and if you HAD put in the effort while in high school, you would probably be Ivy League with a hefty scholarship right now. All of us have to live with the results of decisions we have made.

Put forth the effort NOW, and you may have the opportunity to go to an Ivy League law school.

My son worked his ASS off in high school, studied, did extracurriculars, community service, didn't party, didn't slack off. The result was that he was a National Merit Scholar, and could have gotten in to any college in the country. He was getting offers of FULL scholarships, sight unseen, from colleges he had never shown any interest in. Once in college, he slacked off some, and found out that grad schools weren't exactly rolling out the red carpet for him. He's in grad school now, but isn't totally happy with where he's at. But, he has to live with the results of the decisions he himself made.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

78. Here's something most people don't know about private colleges

If they REALLY want you, they will make it financially possible for you to attend, but you have to have attracted the attention of the department you want to major in.

Unlike the public colleges, they don't have to go strictly by the numbers.

Say you've won a state-wide contest in your field (math, music, science). You can actually create a bidding war among colleges.

[Berry Cool]

79. I have a question about your law school plans.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but you do know what the situation is like out there right now for law school grads and young lawyers? They are having problems getting hired by big firms--real problems. Lawyers at big firms, from associates all the way to partners, are being laid off, but it's hitting the associates the worst. New grads are having their admissions delayed for a half or whole year. Summer programs are being canceled right and left. People are wondering how they are going to pay off their law school loans.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have the ambition to go to law school and become a lawyer. Things might even have changed for the better by the time you get that far. But right now the sledding is tough. Nothing is guaranteed. If you really want to get a law degree, it has to be because you really want to be a lawyer no matter how tough things look. It is not the ticket to a high financial bracket immediately upon graduation the way it used to be.

[rucky]

80. It costs more and it's worth less.

There's a student loan ponzi scheme that been going on for some time now. The schools are in on it.

[RB TexLa]

83. If you are good enough to take and excel in an advanced aerobics class

should the private aerobics facility not charge you their fee to join the class? Georgetown is not a public institution.

[Johonny]

85. spend your money for graduate school

If you are getting an advanced degree no one is going to care where you did your undergraduate work. Particularly if you are getting a PhD.

[rvablue]

86. If you move to CA and establish residency, and get accepted, Berkeley will only run you

around $5,000 - $6,000 a year in tuition. That doesn't include living expenses, books and the like, though.

[XemaSab]

91. A room in a house in Berkeley goes for about $850 a month

It's not a cheap place to live.

[lies and propaganda]

87. Arizona State? lol

worst.school.ever.

so so so very glad I stopped halfway and took my credits somewhere where they mattered.

Michael Crow is the biggest scumbag in life..


I hope you can make it out to Berkeley too hon!

[backscatter712]

88. That's why I'm going to Colorado State. n/t

[seabeyond]

89. we are in texas. son wants to go to colorado. 18k vs 40k. you are right.

i dont want to live in texas. tell hubby, if he can mmove us to colorado in three years i can save him 22k a year, lol

that would be 72k compared to 160k

BIG difference

[End Of The Road]

93. I think you are INCREDIBLY lucky.

A complete tuition waiver for your undergrad degree? You'll graduate with a future not saddled with a mountain of student loan debt. But if you want to get into a top-notch grad school, you'd better quit complaining, get to work, and make the most of the resources available. You're going to have to compete with students from better-ranked programs.

I expect that there are at least a couple of professors in your area of study that you respect. Have you read their published research? Do you share an interest in any of those areas? If so, ask them for help building a working bibliography for independent reading. As a sophomore you may not be eligible yet for an independent study course, but that doesn't mean you can't do it on your own when you have time.

The truth is that all of the professors know more than you do, and you can learn a lot from even the least among them. And you are going to need their recommendations for grad school.

I read your profile and wasn't all that surprised to see that one of your listed hobbies is "sleeping through class." Wake up man.

[noamnety]

94. Some people work their way through school.

They take a full-time job, they take the classes they want at the school they want, at the rate they can afford. If that means one or two classes a semester, so be it.

If you prefer to not have to work full time and live the fairly privileged life of one who has a full ride scholarship to college, then do what you are doing. I suspect that's what you prefer, otherwise you'd go the other route.

If the lectures aren't doing it for you, throw yourself into the readings and do extra reading on top of it during the time you would otherwise be earning wages to pay for tuition. You are going to get out of your education exactly what you put into it. If you are doing the minimum amount of work just to get the grade you want ... and you're complaining because you think you should be doing more work - whose fault is that?

Is there anything keeping you from reading more in depth material? Anything keeping you from auditing higher level classes? I've audited classes I was interested in before, not for credit, because there was something in them I wanted to learn.

I suspect if you aren't learning as much as you want to learn right now, that's not because of your financial situation.

[Bonn1997]

101. I agree with this too. I did lots of extra reading just for sheer enjoyment when I was in college...

and did lots of RA work, including paid RA work with professors at other colleges during the summers.

[QC]

96. Welcome to the American class system!

If the "good" schools are not kept brutally expensive, then The Great Unwashed might get in, and we don't want that to happen.

[UndertheOcean]

97. What is wrong with an in-state university ,ASU is perfectly adequate

Don't buy into the Ivy-League crap .

[philosophie_en_rose]

98. Save your money for law school.

Try to do the best you can and then get into the best law school you can.

[Dora]

103. Eat what's on your plate.

Let other people eat what's on theirs.

I graduated with my BA from ASU in 1996 (I matriculated in '87, LOL, the nine-year plan).

In 1997 I enrolled in graduate school - with tuition paid plus a generous living stipend for all three years.

But, I do see that ASU is on the decline. Crow is going to fuck it up the best he can.

[mnhtnbb]

104. ASU was known as a party school when I went to UCLA in the early 70's

and from what I've heard it still has that reputation.

If you are serious about getting into a top notch law school (though I don't know why--we have way too many attorneys in this country) I think you'd do better to transfer to a community college--whatever is the best
in AZ, save your money and take your last two years at an excellent public university. Out of state
tuition at a public university may still be a lot--but it will be less than a private school.

UCLA, Berkeley, U of Michigan, UNC-Chapel Hill, U of Virginia--all at the top. ASU ranks #60.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/national-top-public

[mnhtnbb]

105. And here are Kiplinger rankings on cost/value

http://content.kiplinger.com/tools/colleges/pubcollege.php?sortby=INRANK04&orderby=flip&states[]=ALL&myschool[]=none&outputby=table

[alcibiades_mystery]

106. Youm can get the same education in ASU that you can get in Georgetown

You have the same access to resources. ASU is a Research 1 university. Live in the library, and you can get the same education you'd get in fucking Harvard.

[tblue37]

110. It's a way of making sure that the children of the well-to-do are mostly

segregated from those not so well off, so that they can network appropriately.

[QC]

115. BINGO!

Can't have the bluebloods mixing with the lesser orders.

[Posteritatis]

116. Oich. I did six years at two universities and paid less than $40K cumulative. (nt)

[Shagbark Hickory]

117. There's something wrong with paying ANY dollars for education.

The government should be picking up the tab to advance the work force and tax base.

[Odin2005]

122. The "top" schools are overrated.

If you think going to one of the top schools will give you a better education you are a victim of one of the biggest and most prevalent lies out there. The top schools are really only "top" when it comes to graduate-level courses and research. when it comes to undergrad classes they are for the most part little different than other schools, and in many cases are worse because it's underpaid TAs teaching the classes, and the classes are in many cases HUGE.

I like my little state liberal arts school, Minnesota State University Moorhead. tuition is dirt-cheap, classes are small, and the Bio-Sciences department is excellent. I got to get some credits doing undergrad research; on the behavior of neurons in relation to AUTISM of all things, which is ironic given my being on the autism spectrum, thus making me source of many a joke! :D

[dddem]

123. Getting the best education you can truly is up to you.

We are currently going through this, as my daughter is about to start her Freshman year at a State College. We looked at private schools, and she had one all picked out. It was pricey, and we weren't offered too much in financial aid. But what really tipped the scales for her was the lack of diversity at the private college. She felt her college experience would be lacking without getting to meet people who are different from the ones she went to high school with. So, with that in mind, I (and she) feel that she will get a broader, more balanced education in the school that happens to cost a lot less. Less tuition doesn't necessarily mean less learning.
You will get out of anything what you put into it. If you go into your state school education feeling bitter and cheated, you won't be open to all the opportunities it affords.
I wish you much success. you sound like a motivated individual, and I'm sure you'll succeed wherever you choose to go.

[sea four]

124. Yeah, it's classist. That is what's wrong with it

Only the rich can afford to pay that kind of money, so only children born into rich families can go to the best schools. By going to these schools, they ensure they will stay rich. The cycle will continue like that... their children will also get to go to the best schools. But why should the rich have these privileges? Just because they had lots of money to begin with?? That's not really fair, but that's just how the world works, I guess. :shrug:

[Hugabear]

127. Perfect example of how education has become a two-tiered system

The best education in this country is reserved for those who can afford it, which puts the poor and lower-middle class at a huge disadvantage.

[BreweryYardRat]

128. All these folks claiming you can do independent study...take 'em with a grain of salt.

I'm at a state school in Florida.

I asked my advisors, and some of my professors, about the possibility of doing independent study courses. Do my own research, meet with a professor, write my own academic paper. If I'm paying tuition, might as well focus on the topics I'm really interested in. The unanimous response was -- unless you're interested in something a professor is currently doing their own research on, it's not happening. Budget cuts mean that the professors have to teach more classes and do more research in order to justify their salaries, which means they don't have spare time to spend reading the student's research sources.

Given that Arizona, like Florida, has had Republicans running it for the past few years, I'd say you're looking at the same sort of situation. Maybe not quite as bad because your state isn't so deep in debt, but...

[Juche]

131. To be fair, you are looking at one of the most expensive ones

Like you said, you got a waiver for in state tuition at ASU.

I do not think 160k in student loan debt and a degree from Georgetown vs 0 student loan debt and a degree from ASU is a good deal. I would go with the in state college in that situation. You are also going to go deep into debt for law school, by the time it is all done you'll easily be 300k in the hole before you even become a lawyer, and you'll be tied to that debt like a rock.

I went to IU (Indiana) in a science major, and several of my classmates went on to PhD programs in places like MIT, Caltech and Berkeley. I know several of my professors who did their PhDs at places like MIT did their undergrad work at in state colleges. IU has a good chemistry/biochemistry program, but most of the students who went on to MIT, CalTech, etc only went to IU because it was in state and the tuition was far cheaper than a private or out of state college. However their research was good, their grades were good, GREs were good and their references were good. Having an in state undergrad degree didn't matter.

If you have good grades, good character references, good LSAT scores and a decent work ethic when applying for law school then an in state undergrad degree probably isn't going to hold you back.

[Sgent]

133. Apply to an Ivy League schools

they provide 100% of financial need for those with families making under about $150,000.