If LBJ were the Majority Leader, how would he handle the "Blue Dogs"?

[kentuck]

From the stories I have read about LBJ, he would probably pin them in a corner, with his arm leaning on the wall, blocking their way from escaping, and he would look them dead in the eye. "Senator So-and-So, if you want that road money and that new school in your district, then you had better vote for this health-care bill we are bringing up tomorrow. I have your balls right here in my pocket and if I can't count on your vote tomorrow, you don't get your balls back, do you understand?"

[kirby]

1. Lecture them while he is crapping on the toilet n/t

[kentuck]

3. Maybe it was because his shit smelled so bad...?

But whatever it was, LBJ was a very strong Majority Leader, unlike what we presently have to endure.

[kirby]

4. He just liked to intimidate people...

He would sit on the toilet and dictate memos to his staff and such.

[kentuck]

Spoken like a true Democrat.

The modern version.

[Third Doctor]

44. I think

that we aew wishing that the recent senate majority leader could get things done like LBJ. Of course demographics and a lot more have changed since then. LBJ was not all good but he could get the job done in these cases. Reid imo should never been in a real leadership role from the start. He's probably on the take like the rest of the bluedogs who were talking about their independence from the rest of the dems months ago.

[Juche]

45. I don't get Reid

My understanding is he took on the mob in Nevada, and they even wired a bomb to his car. If so, why is he such a pussy around republican politicians? They can't be worse than the mob.

[Greyhound]

69. Taking on the mob was a means to an end, he is where he wants to be now.

He fought them on behalf of the corporations that still own him, and he has been very well compensated for his cooperation as have all of the Democratic "leadership".

"America has one political party with two right wings" - Gore Vidal

[brentspeak]

2. Like this:

[sharesunited]

12. Seems like a bit of a close talker.

[1]

13. i bet he purposly had something nasty on his breath at the time too...

just to punctuate the sentence...

[Justitia]

16. Ahhhh....giving them "The Treatment" - famous LBJ maneuver.

They didn't call him the Master of The Senate for nothing.

[elleng]

5. Would like to ask someone who knew him,

like Doris Kearns Goodwin. She worked for him (as did Moyers, right?)

[Birthmark]

6. Correct on all counts, kentuck

I wish we had that kind of leadership in the Senate today.

[BlueIdaho]

7. Grab them by their ears

lift them off the ground and shake some sense into them.

[kentuck]

8. I like that analogy..

I could see that in a cartoon. :-)

[Justitia]

18. Here's the non-cartoon versions (pics)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4y9fiSSWn-0/SeJneP-YSCI/AAAAAAAAAw8/SLoyP0YN2BU/s400/POOCH+64+Lyndon+B+J++Her+by+ears+and+Him+critics.jpg

[kentuck]

19. He was a cruel SOB...

and he proved it in so many ways. But he got things done for the people...

[Justitia]

21. Oh yes, yes he did. This Texan is a huge LBJ fan, BTW.

And I am forever grateful to him for many things.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

34. Choke those Blue Dog fuckers again and do it right this time!

LBJ would have brought them to heel for sure!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. I tend to think he would be a Blue Dawg

[depakid]

11. Yep- passing the Civil Rights Act- the Voting Rights Act & Medicare werereally a blue dog type thi

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Perhaps we have different understanding of the term Blue Dawgs

[depakid]

20. I guess so- because the blue dogs I know would have had to have been drug kicking and screaming

in the process of passing anything like those pieces of landmark legislation.

And indeed- many were.

[Justitia]

14. Are you kidding????

[ControlledDemolition]

22. Yep! He reversed JFK's policies on getting out of Vietnam and ending the 'cold war'!

O.K! Maybe he wasn't all bad... but he was BAD. He was up to his eyeballs in JFK's demise.

[1]

23. lbj was the greatest president in american history. like obama, he inherited some shit...

but do not discount the great things lbj did for humanity.

now off, you. read a book or two...

[ControlledDemolition]

24. My understanding of LBJ is based on a lot of reading! Look up Bobby Baker, Billy Sol Estes... n/t

[1]

27. i'm glad you like to read. read up on this: The Civil Rights Act of 1964...

that legislation would not pass in 2009 (the way our current government acts), let alone in 1964.

that alone should tell you something about lbj. the power and presence he was.

if you want to concentrate on minor shit? goofball shit?

that's on you...

[ControlledDemolition]

29. Read up on Mac Wallace! n/t

[1]

32. yes. far more important than The Civil Rights Act of 1964.

yes, indeed...

[ControlledDemolition]

40. You are trying to put words in my mouth. Those who fought for civil rights had a lot more to do...

... with the passage of the Act than LBJ did. Knowing what I know about LBJ, I cannot bring myself to comment on the man positively.

[ControlledDemolition]

46. Re: Mr. Billie Sol Estes...

"August 9, 1984

Mr. Stephen S. Trott
Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division
U.S. Department of Justice
Washington, D. C. 20530

RE: Mr. Billie Sol Estes

Dear Mr. Trott:

My client, Mr. Estes, has authorized me to make this reply to your letter of May 29, 1984. Mr. Estes was a member of a four-member group, headed by Lyndon Johnson, which committed criminal acts in Texas in the 1960's. The other two, besides Mr. Estes and LBJ, were Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace. Mr. Estes is willing to disclose his knowledge concerning the following criminal offenses:

I. Murders

1. The killing of Henry Marshall
2. The killing of George Krutilek
3. The killing of Ike Rogers and his secretary
4. The killing of Harold Orr
5. The killing of Coleman Wade
6. The killing of Josefa Johnson
7. The killing of John Kinser
8. The killing of President J. F. Kennedy.

Mr. Estes is willing to testify that LBJ ordered these killings, and that he transmitted his orders through Cliff Carter to Mac Wallace, who executed the murders. In the cases of murders nos. 1-7, Mr. Estes' knowledge of the precise details concerning the way the murders were executed stems from conversations he had shortly after each event with Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace.

In addition, a short time after Mr. Estes was released from prison in 1971, he met with Cliff Carter and they reminisced about what had occurred in the past, including the murders. During their conversation, Carter orally compiled a list of 17 murders which had been committed, some of which Mr. Estes was unfamiliar. A living witness was present at that meeting and should be willing to testify about it. He is Kyle Brown, recently of Houston and now living in Brady, Texas.

Mr. Estes, states that Mac Wallace, whom he describes as a "stone killer" with a communist background, recruited Jack Ruby, who in turn recruited Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Estes says that Cliff Carter told him that Mac Wallace fired a shot from the grassy knoll in Dallas, which hit JFK from the front during the assassination.

Mr. Estes declares that Cliff Carter told him the day Kennedy was killed, Fidel Castro also was supposed to be assassinated and that Robert Kennedy, awaiting word of Castro's death, instead received news of his brother's killing.

Mr. Estes says that the Mafia did not participate in the Kennedy assassination but that itparticipation was discussed prior to the event, but rejected by LBJ, who believed if the Mafia were involved, he would never be out from under its blackmail.

Mr. Estes asserts that Mr. Ronnie Clark, of Wichita, Kansas, has attempted on several occasions to engage him in conversation. Mr. Clark, who is a frequent visitor to Las Vegas, has indicated in these conversations a detailed knowledge corresponding to Mr. Estes' knowledge of the JFK assassination. Mr. Clark claims to have met with Mr. Jack Ruby a few days prior to the assassination, at which time Kennedy's planned murder was discussed.

Mr. Estes declares that discussions were had with Jimmy Hoffa concerning having his aide, Larry Cabell, kill Robert Kennedy while the latter drove around in his convertible.

Mr. Estes has records of his phone calls during the relevant years to key persons mentioned in the foregoing account.

II. The Illegal Cotton Allotments

Mr. Estes desires to discuss the infamous illegal cotten allotment schemes in great detail. He has recordings made at the time of LBJ, Cliff Carter and himself discussing the scheme. These recordings were made with Cliff Carter's knowledge as a means of Carter and Estes protecting them selves should LBJ order their deaths.

Mr. Estes believes these tape recordings and the rumors of other recordings allegedly in his possession are the reason he has not been murdered.

III. Illegal Payoffs

Mr. Estes is willing to disclose illegal payoff schemes, in which he collected and passed on to Cliff Carter and LBJ millions of dollars. Mr. Estes collected payoff money on more than one occasion from George and Herman Brown of Brown and Root, which was delivered to LBJ.

In your letter of May 29, 1984, you request "(1) the information, including the extent of corroborative evidence, that Mr. Estes sources of his information, and (3) the extent of his involvement, if any, in each of those events or any subsequent cover-ups."

In connection with Item # 1, I wish to declare, as Mr. Estes' attorney, that Mr. Estes is prepared without reservation to provide all the information he has. Most of the information contained in this letter I obtained from him yesterday for the first time. While Mr. Estes has been pre-occupied by this knowledge almost every day for the last 22 years, it was not until we began talking yesterday that he could face up to disclosing it to another person. My impression from our conversation yesterday is that Mr. Estes, in the proper setting, will be able to recall and orally recount a criminal matters. It is also my impression that his interrogation in such a setting will elicit additional corroborative evidence as his memory is stimulated.

In connection with your Item #2, Mr. Estes has attempted in this letter to provide his sources of information.

In connection with your Item #3, Mr. Estes states that he never participated in any of the murders. It may be alleged that he participated in subsequent cover-ups. His response to this is that had he conducted himself any differently, he, too, would have been a murder victim.

Mr. Estes wishes to confirm that he will abide by the conditions set forth in your letter and that he plans to act with total honesty and candor in any dealings with the Department of Justice or any federal investigative agency.

In return for his cooperation, Mr. Estes wishes in exchange his being given immunity, his parole restrictions being lifted and favorable consideration being given to recommending his long-standing tax leins being removed and his obtaining a pardon.

Sincerely yours,

Douglas Caddy"

[WolverineDG]

57. Um, bull shit

Without LBJ going around "breaking arms" (tm Molly Ivins), the Civil Rights Act would have died or have been watered down. Maybe he wasn't out there on the front lines getting shot at, but all the sacrifices made by the civil rights leaders would have come to naught had that Act died.

dg

[Justitia]

25. Hello friend. Crazy person alert.

:silly:

[tritsofme]

58. You have got to be fucking kidding me.

He is responsible for the needless death of tens of thousands of American soldiers, and countless millions Vietnamese.

His work on civil rights and other domestic legislation was laudable, but some things are unforgivable.

He is not among the great presidents.

He left office in disgrace, and his failed presidency made Richard Nixon more amenable to Americans and allowed for his narrow victory.

[ControlledDemolition]

66. He was a corrupt S.O.B! Mac Wallace was his own personal hit man! n/t

[WolverineDG]

56. Oh.Please. nt

[Selatius]

28. A Blue Dog Democrat is a center-right Democrat.

LBJ's economic policies were way to the left of the current Blue Dog Coalition. He would have more in common with the Progressive Caucus if he were around today.

[dmr]

37. Those were the days when Democrats were real Democrats

I'd love to see an LBJ strong-arming the Corporate Dems.

I wish Senator Kennedy was well enough to influence his colleagues.

I wish the whole political field in DC would prioritize the populous above the money-changers; and their never-ending campaigning quests.

[SharonAnn]

63. Hmmm, there were plenty of racist "Dixiecrats" who were not progressive on anything.

[1]

10. lbj would set them straight. lbj would (and did) show you "change you can believe in."

you did not fuck with lbj...

[ControlledDemolition]

68. Billy Sol Estes... Bobby Baker? n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. He'd stick his dick out at them. n/t

[Selatius]

26. He would make them pay for every bill that they voted against that he favored.

He'd threaten to cut funding to their districts, and if they didn't listen, he would probably begin shaving a little bit off and directing the money elsewhere, like to Medicare. If they still wouldn't play ball, he'd probably shave some more and more until the pain got their attention more than the lobbyists did.

[stuball111]

30. Damn rights!

He'd do just that... we need some balls at the top

[KharmaTrain]

31. Pretty Much How Obama Is Handling Them...

Johnson had his own "blue dogs" to deal with...segregationists and "old Democrats" (many who would later plague the GOOP). As a majority leader, Johnson didn't really pass any major social legislation (his tenure was under Eisenhower), but as President, he used his knowledge of the legislative and his connections to cajole or intimidate the votes he needed. I see the same type of attitude in this White House. Hate him as many will, but Emanuel knows how to get things through the House and having Joe Biden making calls and working in the cloak room could yield some surprising votes.

Time always distorts how things were...Mike Mansfield was the Senate Majority leader (ironically from Montana) who did the heavy lifting to get Medicare and Civil Rights legislation through the Senate.

[TexasObserver]

33. LBJ would have stepped on their favorite projects until they voted right.

[depakid]

35. And that's exactly what Obama (and Reid and Pelosi) need to do

As it stands- there aren't any consequences for supporting corrupt policies- failing to get on board or worse- voting with Republicans.

So why shouldn't they pad their pockets with corporate money- and block meaningful reform?

[TexasObserver]

36. Yes, and go to their home states to put voter pressure on them.

Voters want a bill passed, especially voters in the Democratic primaries.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

38. Wasn't he himself a Blue Dog? n/t

[Justitia]

39. Hardly. LBJ is about the furthest from a Blue Dog as you can imagine.

He was our most liberal president - ever.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

51. He was liberal on civil rights because it was demanded of him, but I don't think he was a liberal.

[Justitia]

54. No, LBJ came from poverty, he was a teacher (of poor immigrants), an ardent New Dealer

His presidency reduced the poverty rate of the US by 50%(!). See Great Society / War on Poverty

No president, before or after LBJ, has ever managed that.

He came from nothing and that always affected his outlook.
He was determined to lift Americans out of poverty. As a teacher, he knew education was the way out of hopelessness.
His dad loved FDR & the New Deal and told LBJ when he made it to congress to never waver in his support of it, and he never did.

LBJ wrote / spoke many, many times about the immorality and inhumanity of racism and segregation.

He was our most liberal president ever - in thought, deed and drive.

It absolutely killed the man that his first priority (domestic policy) was run off the rails by the horror of Vietnam.

I always encourage people to learn more about him, he was a fascinating, tragic figure.

He did more concrete good for more Americans & their daily lives than any president in history. His legacy continues to this very day.

As a Texan, I could not be more proud of this REAL Texan president and the things he accomplished for all of us.

[WolverineDG]

61. His educational philosophy

http://www.humanitiestexas.org/newsroom/spotlights/lbjteacher/index.php

Most importantly, the last sentence:

The importance of educational opportunity

If every child born could acquire all the education that their intelligence quotient permitted them to take, God only knows what our gross national product would be. The strength that we would add to our nation militarily, diplomatically, economically is too large even to imagine. There is no investment that we could make that would return such high dividends. If we could just assume when a child is born that that child was going to be trained until it reached the point that it could no longer profit from that training and that if the economic situation in the individual family did not exist, that the government would provide the scholarship or the loan or grant or whatever you wanted. To see that brought about, you would eliminate your slums and largely your crime and certainly your poverty programs and things of that nature. Because all of these things that we frown upon and that give us problems in this country ultimately are traceable to the dropout or to the lack of education or to environment or to health problems or something else which could be cured by giving to every person the right to acquire all the education that he or she could take.

dg

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

64. Thanks for this. I read disturbing stories about LBJ not really being for civil rights

because he feared that the Democrats would suffer politically in the South...and he was right. I think the public sentiment over race relations were evolving at that time and Americans were demanding change. LBJ had no choice but to comply. But he seemed much more concerned about what would happen to the Democratic Party than about civil rights being the right thing to do.

[WolverineDG]

65. You could not be more wrong

He went to the same teaching school as my grandmother, & like her, caught a lot of flack for insisting on educating Hispanics as well as whites. So to say he only voted for civil rights because it was politically expedient to do so (it wasn't; he correctly observed that the passage of the Civil Rights Act would cause the Dems to lose the South for a generation) is way off-base. He wasn't perfect, but he wasn't a monster either.

dg

[LostInAnomie]

41. He'd have them assassinated in Dallas by Oswald.

Someone had to say it. :evilgrin:

[ControlledDemolition]

47. Don't you mean Jim Braden, or, Mac Wallace? n/t

[RFKHumphreyObama]

42. LBJ was a Blue Dog in many ways

I think actually that most DU'ers would be complaining as much about him as they do about people like Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, perhaps in a different way though

[depakid]

48. Let's see- Medicare, the Civil Rights Act, The Voting Rights Act, The Great Society

Yep- those really sound like blue dog kinds of things that require no courage and didn't shake up the status quo at all.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

52. I'm well aware of his record in the White House

Perhaps you should review more closely his record as Senate Majority Leader. His close friendships and political alliances with southern segregationists such as Richard Russell, James Eastland and in fact the whole bloc of conservative Democrats that often came at the expense of marginalizing liberal Democrats in the Senate. Look at his reluctance to take on contentious issues such as civil rights because of his concerns that they would jeopardize his prospects of winning the presidency. Look at his treatment of liberal Democrats who wanted greater concessions in terms of civil rights legislation. What he accomplished during his tenure as Senate Majority Leader in terms of his policy agenda was decidedly conservative to the extent that he actually sidelined the liberal wing of the party while preserving and in some cases enhancing the status and prestige of the conservative Democrats. I am not criticizing for this. His skillfully crafted manuevering actually helped him get through some legislation that wouldn't have otherwise been passed -such as the 1957 Civil Rights Act -and it also served him well in the future when getting much of his legislation through the Senate while in the White House.

But the whole premise of this argument that Senate Majority Leader Johnson would have turned on the blue dogs is inaccurate because he mostly aligned himself the equivalent wing of his party during his era in the Senate. I am willing to bet that, without seeing the bigger picture of why LBJ did pander so much to the conservative wing of the party, many DU'ers would condemn him in the same way that they do the Blue Dogs of today

BTW, anyone who thinks I'm bashing LBJ here is mistaken. He was perhaps one of the greatest legislators the world has ever seen and, if not for Vietnam, he'd probably rank with Roosevelt and Lincoln as being the best President thet the US has had.

[onenote]

62. well put.

LBJ as majority leader was not the LBJ that, as president, and with the help of everett dirksen and moderate repubs, presided over the enactment of a number of forward looking pieces of legislation. Indeed, LBJ's record as the promoter of progressive legislation as majority leader is pretty thin.

[Justitia]

67. "Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, I'm free at last." - LBJ on his passion for the CRA

James Farmer: I remember that when I was in the White House talking with him, I asked him how he got to be the way he was. He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, here you are, calling senators, twisting their arms, threatening them, cajoling them, trying to line up votes for the Civil Rights Bill when your own record on civil rights was not a good one before you became Vice President. So what accounted for the change?"

Johnson thought for a moment and wrinkled his brow and then said, "Well, I'll answer that by quoting a good friend of yours and you will recognize the quote instantly. 'Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, I'm free at last.'"

[omega minimo]

43. Kick their asses across the aisle where they belong

:kick:

[Hekate]

49. LBJ would lift them up by their foolish ears like a beagle pup...

... and talk until they had achieved an understanding.

Hekate

[limit18]

50. A little insight into LBJ...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents/36_l_johnson/filmmore/filmscript.html

[spanone]

53. meanwhile harry reid bends over backwards to placate the republicans....

[WolverineDG]

55. Break their arms

according to Molly Ivins.


dg

[Stinky The Clown]

59. That's reasonably close to how I see him doing it

He was a tough guy, for sure.

I hope Rahm is doing some of that.

[rcrush]

60. He'd have his Military Industrial Complex buddies assassinate them.

[H2O Man]

70. I can imagine

that my father's answer would be, "He grab them by the balls. They would be known as the 'blue balls' if they pulled their shit with him."