A difficult discussion - individual responsibility, the military, & war

[debbierlus]

I know I am entering into a very delicate territory, but I wonder what DU & people think about this subject.

As a progressive & a pacifist, it has been very hard for me to go along with the mantra of 'Support Our Troops'. I believe I did try to support the troops before the war by vigorously protesting against it, contacting my representatives repeatedly pleading for them to stand against it, & endeavoring to educate family, friends, & my immediate internet community through discussion and blogging about the fallacies being put forth by the administration. However, I don't support the mission of our troops, and here is the slippery part, I do not respect what the individuals in the military have done to innocent people. Poisoning water, destroying infrastructure, & littering another country's land with depleted uranium is not admirable.

Before you start shouting at me, my point is this - where does individual responsibility begin? The Bush Administration would be impotent, if people refused to carry out their orders of killing. Wouldn't it be preferable to be put in jail then to execute unethical and treasonous orders? Hitler could not have committed the Holocaust without his Nazi regime, did that excuse the Nazis for what they did? Because Hitler ordered it? Would you as an individual in the same situation allow yourself to be put in jail or would you kill? Would you die before killing an innocent family? Would you at least endeavor to stop yourself from being forced into these actions? People say it is not the troops fault, and it is not their fault that Bush ordered such an atrocity. This is true. However, does that mean because he ordered it, people do not have the responsibility to resist such orders? Is it truly, I have to kill because he told me to do that?

I realize there are just wars (although very, very few), if people are trying to save their own lives. However, Iraq never met that criteria.

My question is simple. Do individuals have a responsibility to defy unethical orders that kill innocents? When do we have the discussion about what it truly takes for peace? Can it be achieved with a willing manpower to carry out mass murder (and that is what war is)....The British recently confirmed a death toll of over 1/2 MILLION people. Would be able to rationalize, if foreign soldiers came here and they were just following orders? Would we think they deserved support, if it was our land that was decimated, our children orphaned/maimed, killed? I realize the blood is on all of our hands. As a country, America should have never allowed the election of Bush, never allowed the military industrial complex to become our economic backbone, never elected leaders who would institute such insanity. I hold myself accountable as well because even though I did protest and try to fight the iniation of the war, it still wasn't enough. I could have done more.

I would never treat a US soldier unkindly, and I am a advocate for providing care & healing for all of them upon return. I realize I don't have all the answers, & my post is not about creating animosity towards the troops. It is about trying to have a discussion about what each individual is responsible for in the world, and why people allow themselve to be used for very unethical ends?

Why is murder free and clear in a foreign land? Here, such actions would require jail. Is it because despite all of our talk about of all men being created equeal, we can excuse the death, if it isn't on our soil, and the executor because he is one of us?

I just opened a can of worms. Oh, well. DU is strong enough for it.

[mike_c]

1. no flames from me-- I agree with you 100 percent....

I've written about it several times on DU and elsewhere. To me, the fundamental question boils down to the war against Iraq being a crime against humanity under international law. The people who perpetrate crimes are, by definition, criminals, whether they are the top conspirators or whether just the get-away car drivers. I know of no other instance in which the perpetrators of crimes are counted as innocent victims of their own actions.

The "just following orders" defense was thoroughly discredited at Nuremberg, and by the U.S. itself.

[IChing]

3. Yep, no disagreement with you or the OP

[atreides1]

2. I'm on your side

Yes this administration bears responsibility for starting this fiasco, but the troops continue to delude themselves with the belief that they are "following orders" or "bringing democracy" to the Iraqi people.

We know that neither of those things are true, the troops are doing exactly what armies of tyrants have been doing for centuries, killing people on command, and then trying to justify it with talking points.

Alexander the Great wanted to bring "civilization" to the world, the Romans wanted to bring "order",
and white Americans truly believed that people of color were not capable of making decisions, just ask the Native Americans and Native Hawaiians!

In the end the only group that can save the lives of the military, is the military itself, but as long as they continue to "follow orders" first and piss on the Constituion, because that's exactly what they are doing, they will continue to die or come back missing body parts, or with their minds
screwed up!

My wife and I send out care packages by using an online site, and I have never looked at a troop with contempt, only sympathy and pity. I have been thinking about volunteering at Walter Reed, but
I have to prepare myself for what I might see.

[debbierlus]

5. That is very gracious - they certainly could use an individual such as yourself

Thanks

[debbierlus]

4. Really interesting, I am surprised this topic didn't go anywhere

I am surprised - & the people who did respond agreed. Interesting...

[blues90]

6. I know it's a difficult topic .

At least you are honest here and anyone has to respect that .

I had a choice to make in 1968 , if I got my greetings letter what would I do , I knew I could not kill for a war that seemed so wrong , it was not to defend this country so if it came down to it I chose canada . However after all the worry and plans the lottery came around and I was 298 .

I do still feel it is all about many personal issues whether one goes or not . I fault this mad admin and the people who felt this Iraq was the right thing to do including the politicians who voted for it , excuses do not erase the insanity .