Share your food with someone who is hungry and off to jail you go

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.newhavenadvocate.com/article.cfm?aid=13612

Soup Kitchen, or Picnic?

The activists of Middletown's Food Not Bombs insist they're simply sharing their food, not feeding the hungry

Tuesday, June 30, 2009

Food Not Bombs — a grassroots group active in 1,000 cities worldwide according to co-founder Keith McHenry — characterizes the vegan food they serve at the corner of Main and Liberty streets in Middletown every Sunday at 1 p.m. as the equivalent of a picnic, and everyone is invited to attend. No strings attached.

The group does have a political message to go along with their meals — that governments worldwide should spend less on defense and more on providing "food security" for their citizens.

"We don't prescribe to any grand overarching message except that food is a right, not a privilege," says Abe Bobman, a sophomore at Wesleyan University. "We're just cooking a meal and sharing it for free." snip

Nice try, says Thazhampallath, but the city of Middletown isn't buying it.

"I don't think we can pick and choose who we enforce the health codes for," he says. "Their cause is admirable. All we're asking is that they also try to honor the structures we've put in place to guard public health."

In late April, two FNB members were given $100 citations, and on May 3 Bobman was arrested on a criminal misdemeanor charge of violating a health department order and fined $300, plus possible jail time.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. Oh, the DELICIOUS irony of this one -

they want the government to provide "more food security," but they refuse to adhere to the local health codes.

Self-involved idiots...................

[ZombieHorde]

2. Should not a person be allowed to make some food and give that food to someone else?

At what point should a person have to certify their kitchen to give someone food?

[ColbertWatcher]

21. I wouldn't trust a meal made by Cheney. n/t

[kctim]

155. The point where emotions became the deciding factor, instead of the law

[ZombieHorde]

191. Like the Underground Railroad? nt

[Odin2005]

232. If the law is nanny-statist crap then fuck the law!

At the preschool I work at the needlessly byzantine health and nutritional regulations cause us to have to throw out a lot of perfectly good food. It's fucking criminal!

[anigbrowl]

168. When you're distributing it to the public, it seems

In the unfortunate event that you screw up and make a bunch of people sick, do you want the resulting liability? Probably not. Having worked as a cook I'm sympathetic but I'm also cognizant of food safety.

[ZombieHorde]

190. Should a person be punished for sharing their sandwhich with someone? nt

[anigbrowl]

224. Don't be disingenuous, it's not the same and you know it.

I know it's a drag for FNB but get the damn permit and live with it. Many places will have an exemption waiver or considerable reduction for nonprofits. The only reason not to get a permit is because you're too cool for school. Sure, for one off events it may not be worth the hassle, but if you want to give out food every week then it's just an expense, like the energy to cook the food and the paper plates etc.

[ZombieHorde]

226. You did not really answer my question.

How about five people? Should it be OK for someone to give five people a sandwich without a permit?

What number of people makes it "not the same?"

How many people should I be allowed to give food to at any one time?



edit for punctuation

[anigbrowl]

248. OK, fair enough

It's not the number of people, though I'd say if you went around giving sandwiches to more than 10 people, you're getting into distributing rather than personal gifts.

What I think is distinctly different about FNBs case is that they're setting up a distribution point and saying 'come here for free food'. That's a solicitation, whereas carrying food around and giving it to hungry-looking people is more of a dispensation. If someone comes up to me and gives me some free food (which happened once; I'm pale and thin, and one winter night while I was shivering at a bus stop someone mistakenly thought I was sitting there for want of anywhere to go, rather than just for want of a bus arriving), well, I can take it or leave it.

But if you are advertising the availability of free food by setting up a stand, as it were, then there's kind of an implicit promise about food safety and so forth even though it's done for charitable rather than commercial purposes. This is a good thing to do, but so is getting a permit so that people can have confidence in the quality of that food. Remember that e. Coli outbreak with the spinach a while back? Even vegan food can be subject to a health hazard.

[imdjh]

5. The real irony is that you can't give away low risk food but you can sell hot dogs at stands...

... that are manufactured in factories a normal person would gag breathing the air inside, and the kept in warm water for hours after sitting in a cooler for hours. And by the way, nothing is likely to turn me off than the word "vegan" since they tend to be assholes about food.

No, this is the nanny state at work. Every one of the major food scares of late have been produced in certified kitchens. But vegan food, which is low risk for uglies, can't be given away? How about bake sales? Are they off too? Or is it only when you are giving away hippy food to homeless people that the health department gets involved?

And speaking of the health department- where were they when the famous brands of food and some of the restaurants we all know and love were born? They didn't exist. When Herman Lays wanted to start selling potato chips, he supposedly cooked them in his home kitchen. Colonel Sander started in a gas station that I'm pretty sure didn't see a health inspector until the 1960's.

The departments of health of the various states were created to deal with contagious diseases, not to stop people from starting a business or giving away food.

[Vektor]

30. Please explain...

What you mean by vegans being "assholes about food?"

I'm not sure what that means, or how you came to that conclusion.

I am not vegan, but have many friends who are, and I cannot think of a single time I felt that referring to them as "assholes" regarding their food choices was warranted.

I'm not attacking you, I just really don't understand what you mean. Is it upsetting to you that someone simply has a food preference and makes it known, or that their food choices are different than yours? Or was someone genuinely abusive/rude to you regarding a food issue? I'm just trying to understand your very negative association with something as innocuous as somebody's food preferences.

[imdjh]

69. It was a pretty broad brush. I should have said, "because many tend"

My point was, that I wasn't defending this because it was vegan food by showing hostility.

As for why I would even say such a thing, it's because many vegan people are not simply people who don't eat meat, eggs, and dairy; they don't want anyone to eat meat, eggs, or dairy. They can be a pain in the ass. Why this was on my mind was because I had just read the Sea Shepherd article which said that the Sea Shepherd is a vegan ship. OK, so I can see the political factor to that, they don't want the whalers to be able to point out that they are fighting whaling while eating cows, since the Nisshin Maru folks have already done a video similar to that idea. But this isn't the first time I have come across the "vegan household" thing. Why would a household be a vegan household? Who would choose their roommates based on that? Why do they feel the need to declare the household to be one or the other? I have lived in a couple of group situations where one or two people were vegan, and never felt the need to make ours a "carnivore household"; everyone just eats what he wants to eat.

There are dietary vegans and political vegans. Dietary vegans come to your dinner party, and eat the pasta salad that you made just for nonmeateaters. Political vegans come to your dinner party and ask you if the pasta in the pasta salad was made with egg.

[Annces]

110. are you the person

who thinks it is okay for agribusiness to take wildlife parks away from wildlife and grow crops instead. I think so.

[imdjh]

113. No. What I think you are remembering is that I said that migrating birds like farms.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

139. Thanks, Vektor.

It's often very difficult at DU to combat the prejudice that veg*ns face. While I don't personally care what other people eat, I'll be damned if I'll sit quietly while assholes call ALL veg*ns Nazis, idiots, crazies, etc.

So I'd like to thank you for standing up for those who face irrational and ugly prejudice. It's very progressive of you!

:patriot:

[imdjh]

152. What grade do you teach?

[Ignis]

156. Currently, none. Previously, university and post-grad.

Why, do you hate them thar edjumacated people, too?

You should really compile a master list of all the people you hate, so we can all see how progressive you are. I suggest publishing it in book format, with a catchy title. Perhaps you could call it My Struggle.

[imdjh]

157. Yes, wondering if you are an elementary school teacher is a statement against education.

You're off balance, my dear, and definitely out of line. And in case you didn't notice, I was defending this bunch (FNB) despite what my personal opinion of them might be. That, my dear, is progressive.

[Ignis]

159. Ah, so FNB didn't make the Master List of Hate, eh?

Bigotry in any form isn't a progressive value.

And I'm sorry to hear that your ham-fisted attempt at a personal attack failed because you weren't skilled enough to set up the question properly. But then, hatred and bigotry do tend to dull the wits.

[varelse]

208. OMG - you went there

:spray:

[Ignis]

188. Despite your prejudice against vegans, you're right on.

This obviously isn't an issue of food safety, but a problem of businesses finding the homeless distasteful.

"Certifying" a kitchen doesn't wave a magic wand to prevent food-based illness, as you very correctly pointed out.

[roody]

9. I hope you never suffer hunger.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. And you're sure that I haven't?

The issue, my friend, is not hunger.................

[jgraz]

92. Having your latte and scone wear off before 11 doesn't count.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

96. HAHAHAHHAHAHHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you seriously that dense?

Oh, thank you ...............

[jgraz]

107. You seem to be laughing a lot on this thread. Insecure much?

Maybe next time you can try being a little more sensitive. You might not have to look up so many cute laughing smilies.

Oops, sorry. Forgot who I was talking to.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

118. The problem, dear one,

is that you have no idea to whom you're talking here, and you just end up looking like a silly.

But, that's all right. Given your facility with the dimwitted crack in lieu of substantive comments, it appears you're quite versed in minutiae and attempted insults.

Sad, really, but maybe you'll get over it.

And you still don't know what this thread is about, which is really funny - almost as funny as a dipstick like you lecturing on sensitivity.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[armyowalgreens]

35. Well I hope you don't suffer from explosive diarrhea.

And you probably won't thanks to the Health Department.

[imdjh]

74. Eileen Heckart lives!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

88. Beautiful, just beautiful ........

How nice when someone gets the irony and manages to build on it. And, of course, you are then assailed by the anklebiters without a clue.

Well done, sir.......................

[imdjh]

218. Anklebiter? Can't I just be an Eileen Heckart fan?

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThomCat]

13. Yeah, I guess I'm one of those "self involved idiots."

I spent years making sandwiches with my own money once a week and walking around giving them away to homeless people who couldn't get into the over-capacity soup kitchens. It was just PB+J sandwiches, Hummus with lettuce and tomato, ham and cheese, and lettuce tomato and roast beef, and then we'd cruise through Manhattan finding hungry people.

I'm vegan but I don't expect others to be, so we always had a selection. Give them what they want. The ham and cheese was the most popular. (Despite the shit I hear about vegans being obnoxious, honestly, I rarely find it to be true. It's the meat-eaters who hate us who tend to be obnoxious for no good reason.) :(

No, none of it was made in an health-inspected kitchen. It was made in a dorm room, or in an apartment. But we figured that what was most important was that people who wouldn't otherwise get any access to food at all should get couple of sandwiches. They were not going to get anything from a restaurant kitchen. Should they go hungry? :(

It is very easy to insist that every source of food has to come from an inspected kitchen. That is wonderful in an ideal world where there are enough people with enough resources, enough funding making sure everyone has food. But mostly, Strict applications of codes are used to shut down services for the homeless, and then to drive the homeless into someone else's jurisdiction so that they become someone else's problem. That's the real reason for the strict adherence to codes. A quiet application of bigotry against the homeless hidden inside the law.

Otherwise you tend to get people who are concerned about practical applications of codes for everyone's benefit. Sometimes you have to recognize that different people have different needs, and the codes have to serve everyone including the homeless, and not enforcing a code can be the what is best for some people in some cases.

[Vektor]

29. I'm not vegan...

But I have friends who are, and they are about the furthest thing from being "assholes" as you can get. I am not sure where this stereotype comes from, or what it's even supposed to mean.

How the hell can somebody be "an asshole about food"? What does that even mean?

I have, however, been unfortunate enough to hear some of the taunts and insults leveled at people for their food preferences, and I can honestly say, that I cannot think of a more stupid reason to pick on someone or insult them, than food preferences. Admittedly, the majority of the taunts I have personally heard are from fellow meat eaters directed at vegetarians/vegans. (Other people may have had different experiences.) It's really odd, and utterly mysterious as to why anyone gives a shit about someone else's food choices.

Why would someone be offended/upset/put out by someone else's food choices? It's so weird.

[H2O Man]

49. I am, as well.

I work with a food pantry that is run out of the basement of an area church. There are some curious restrictions on what can and can't be provided to the poor. Some of the regulations go back to the Reagan Administration, which had all the compassion that one would expect from Herod.

In the holiday seasons, it's against some law or another for the church ladies (and a few of us men) to bake and distribute pies, cookies, etc. Those wonderful plastic-tasting things with more preservatives than fruit, which one can purchase for an inflated price, are A-okay. But a homemade pie is illegal to distribute.

I recognize that there are dangers in having poor children eat a homemade pie at, say, Christmas time. They might even think about the true meaning of that holiday, rather than remain focused upon the bright lights and advertised sales that corrupt human nature. I feel so guilty, sometimes.

[Odin2005]

233. That is seriously fucked up!

:cry:

[imdjh]

219. We have a guy here who gives away vodka and five dollar bills.

And the city has tried to stop him from doing that. I think he does it once a year on New Years Day, or maybe it's Christmas Day.

I had some miniatures left over from stocking stuffing, so New Years I gave those away on the street.

[tkmorris]

14. You don't have any mirrors in your house do you?

Do you really believe Middletown officials are trying to shut down FNB because they are concerned about the safety of the food they serve? Surely you don't believe that. It isn't possible.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

16. Before we discuss the history of this matter,

tell me what the status of mirrors in my home has to do with anything?

Or were you just interested in making this a personal attack?

Surely, you're not that thick. It isn't possible.......................

[tkmorris]

23. Didn't answer a thing did you?

The town of Middletown is trying to prevent a group from feeding homeless people, and you blame the group doing the feeding, swallowing the town's "reasoning" hook, line, and sinker. Or, more likely, you know the stated reason is crap but you applaud their efforts anyway. That's disgusting. Thoroughly, unbelievably, and unforgivably disgusting.

Now you can say whatever you like, I no longer give a damn. I'm going to go buy some homeless folks some food. I'm thinking of throwing in some tangerines.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

25. Why make it personal?

Why insult me because my opinion of the situation is different from yours?

You're just not terribly bright, and haven't the slightest idea of the why that situation is funny

Honey, I never gave a damn.

And aren't you the virtuous one, announcing your intentions, to buy some homeless people some food?

You are a damn saint.

I am humbled in the presence of such a superior soul.

Your magnanimity is vast.

So is that size of that empty space between your ears................................

[jgraz]

91. Says the person who opened the thread by calling hunger activists "self involved idiots"

You did it to get a reaction, and you got your reaction. Stop whining that you got called out on it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

95. No, dear heart, I did it to state my opinion...................

If you think that was a "personal attack," then no one ever again will be allowed to comment in any negative way on any news story ever.

Congratulations on your utter and complete lack of understanding of how opinions work.

Whining? Honey, it's back to the English As A Second Language Class for you.

But, thank you for the laugh...............................

[jgraz]

104. Pardon me for saying, sweetheart, but your opinion sucks

Some of us have actually done work with FnB. How about you call me a "self-involved idiot" to my face? Or would that involve getting your fat ass off the couch?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

115. Do you know what "irony" means?

Read this thread, and maybe you'll get enough change to be able to buy a clue.

And, congratulations on your good works. I'm sure your dimwitted insults are the direct result of all the kindness you learned while doing those good works. It takes a sensitive and generous soul to make remarks about a 'fat ass off the couch,' and given that you've developed the ability to SEE people in cyberspace, your sterling accomplishments are even more impressive.

Be proud. Be very proud ............

[jgraz]

121. Do you know what "activism" means?

Protip: if you want to insult people's intelligence, try not sounding like such a dumbass.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

124. Oh, so you don't........

Well, then, that's all right. A thread about irony - which is what this is - would naturally leave you confused.

OK, then ................

[jgraz]

132. Unlike you, I'm not that invested in what other people think of me

But please, tell us again how intelligent you are. I may have to look up my own giggly smilies for that one.


Oh, and you might need to refresh yourself on the whole "irony" thing, bless your heart. Using the word when you don't understand the concept just makes you look dumber. Ironic, huh?

[Ignis]

202. "Isn't it ironic? Don't you think?"

No, in fact. No. :)

[Odin2005]

234. Calling me a "self-involved idiot" makes it damn personal!

:grr:

[Greyhound]

26. .

"But, but, but... I wrote a book!"

[tkmorris]

33. And here I thought "Limousine Liberals" was a myth

They need to get out more.

[Greyhound]

164. Unfortunately not, they exist and are different from their Republik counterparts in one very

important way. The Republiks are selfish/crazy/evil, but they are fully committed to promoting their crazy. Ours are just selfish.

Mellon-Scaife poured hundreds of millions of dollars into his media machine for years with no return just to create a market and get his message out (of course he's making huge returns now), George Soros demands ROI on his money within months, and when it doesn't happen the money dries up.

Similarly, Rosie O'Donnell couldn't get any financial support from her rich friends after 9/11 when she called to start her victim's fund. Everyone is happy to go to a party, give a speech, lend their picture, but don't ask them to write a check.

[Odin2005]

236. The Limo "Liberals" are everywhere and they piss me off.

They are selfish idiots to whom helping others is merely a tool to enhance their own image.

[Freddie Stubbs]

81. What is impossible about a city enforcing health codes? Have you never heard of a restaurant being

shut down for health code violations?

[Gormy Cuss]

89. Food security is about the availability of food.

It's unfortunate that it has become the term for this because for people outside of businesses and organizations who deal with this issue the term doesn't resonate. Persons who are food insecure may skip meals for lack of food or eat less than what is necessary for basic caloric intake for one of two reasons: either they have no money or means to obtain food, or in the case of some more agrarian cultures, there is little food to be had because of crop failures or drought.

Food security is not at all related to health code violations.

[Odin2005]

231. When the Nanny-Statists infere with people helping people they can go fuck themselves!

<----Proud "self-involved idiot"

[ThirdWorldJohn]

3. Video from May 3rd here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzP2Y2C18g4

Food Not Bombs is also suing the city in federal court.

http://middletowneyenews.blogspot.com/2009/06/food-not-bombs-sues-city.html

[rwheeler31]

4. Good cause but you have to comply with health codes even

for a little bake sale, it is not that hard.

[imdjh]

7. They can have my brownies when they pry them from my cold dead hands.

For some reason, bake sales have the best brownies. I think it is because they tend to be a little dry and crispy.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. Wanna see a brownie recipe that'll make you weak?

Wanna? Huh?

http://tinyurl.com/melxab

[imdjh]

71. Those look sinful

[ThirdWorldJohn]

10. Food Not bombs says they don't and are suing Middleton - see link

http://middletowneyenews.blogspot.com/2009/06/food-not-bombs-sues-city.html

[dysfunctional press]

64. fnb sounds like they are over-burdened with idiots...

Today Middletown Food Not Bombs filed for an injunction in federal court against the City of Middletown and the State of Connecticut to prevent enforcement of a cease and desist order barring the plaintiffs from political and meal-sharing activities unless the meals are prepared in a kitchen that is registered with the Health Department. According to the Health Department, sharing meals prepared anywhere else, as the organization and its members have for over ten years, is a violation of the health code...

"Indeed, since being issued the cease and desist order in April, Food Not Bombs has been working for a solution that would allow the group to continue to prepare food and share prepared vegan meals in its long-time location on Main Street, outside the St. Vincent DePaul Place..."

here's a solution- prepare the food in a registered kitchen, and then take it to that location. since the soup kitchen doesn't serve meals on sundays- perhaps they could make arrangements to use that kitchen for their preparations.

[Joe Chi Minh]

198. But isn't dumpster-diving unhealthy - not to speak of the food?

Or should the starving be prevented from dumpster-diving or accepting gifts of home-baked food, so that they can starve in a healthy manner?

[Odin2005]

237. Sad that fellow liberals like yourself support the this blatant attack on the homeless.

:puke:

[1]

6. fnb should just rent a giant dumpster and put the food in it...

i sure the fine city of middletown has no problem with people eating out of dumpsters.

[imdjh]

8. good one and true

[Ignis]

141. Sad but true.

Let's face facts: The city wants the homeless, hungry, unwashed masses kept out of sight, so the beautiful people don't have to see them. That's the core issue here.

[rwheeler31]

12. We need more food safety inspections not less.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

18. Agreed,

and isn't that what the group is fighting for?

So why do they decide they're above compliance with health codes? I find the dissonance really funny, but check out the responses I got above because I pointed out the idiocy of their stance.

Some people just don't get it and can't wait to jump on the Smug, Self-Righteous, Stupid Bandwagon........................................

[rwheeler31]

19. Yea know you buy em books and send em to school

an they can't see the forest for the trees.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

20. HA!

[ColbertWatcher]

22. Bypassing food safety/health is more libertarian than liberal.

After all wasn't it the progressives who started all that food inspections stuff back in the day?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

27. It's more self-indulgent, spoiled kids

who would blink like sightless fish under a spotlight if you mentioned Upton Sinclair to them.

Sometimes, you know, the density just makes me wonder........................

[ColbertWatcher]

28. So, we're in agreement then. n/t

[tkmorris]

32. You DO understand...

You do understand that when cities and towns use this tactic, it isn't food safety they care about, it's about shutting down the feeding operation for HOMELESS people they are concerned about, yes? That what they really want is that their town not be hospitable to homeless people, so they move on to the next one, yeah? I think even Upton Sinclair would understand that one.

[armyowalgreens]

34. Tin foil hat conspiracies? The homeless people didn't hike 20 miles from another town...

They are homeless people from that town. If anything, the city should be thanking them for taking a little strain off the shelters.

[tkmorris]

39. It's not tin foil armyof. It's SOP

Every small to medium size town across the country is familiar with the tactic. Make your town less hospitable to the transients than the next town is. They'll move on. That's all this is about. Think about it, if I had a picnic in this same town and offered a passerby a chicken leg I'd be guilty of EXACTLY what FNB is being charged with here. I know they stand there with their bare face hanging out and CLAIM that it's all about local food safety laws, but that's nonsense. It isn't. It's about not providing anything to homeless people so that they will leave town. City planners and mayors HATE homeless people hanging around the town square. That's not any conspiracy theory, it's just the truth. They'll use any tool at their disposal to prevent that.

[armyowalgreens]

40. No.

Handing a chicken leg to a passerby is not the same as running a legitimate food operation. It doesn't make a difference that it's free.

Take it from someone who works in the food business. When you advertise yourself as a place for people to eat, you will be subject to health codes of every other place that serves food. The grass roots group was attempting to out smart the health department by labeling it a giant "picnic".

If they actually give a damn about the people they are helping, and I assume they do, they should be willing to keep the food in a safe environment. In other words, they should be willing to follow the health codes.

Giving a piece of chicken to someone who asks for it is not advertising yourself as a food source for anyone willing to come over. Now if you showed up with a truck load of chicken legs and started handing them out to everyone, you would then be subject to health codes.

[tkmorris]

50. Don't teach your grandfather to suck eggs kid

I've spent more years in food service than you have.

Here's what you aren't understanding. An operation like FNB operates on a shoestring budget. They are perfectly willing to operate out of an "approved" kitchen, but that adds to their costs, unless they can find someone to donate the space. Plus, you can bet your ass that if someone does (which in this case happened) the town will try to find some other code to harass them with. It's a war, where the organization tries to feed those who need it and the town tries to find some palatable reason to shut it down.

What if I plan my picnic poorly, and have far too many chicken legs on the grill? If I hang a sign on my table saying "Free chicken legs! Come get em!" have I not advertised? Am I not in technical violation of the code? And lastly, do you really believe the town would crack down on me in the same fashion?

[armyowalgreens]

51. Unfortunately, if they cannot keep the food safe, they should scale down operations to afford it.

I'm all for helping the homeless and needy. I've spent a good amount of time at St. Vincent De Paul's food bank in Phx. But we make sure the food is safe to consume. Because the last thing we'd want is someone, who is already in a bad situation, getting sick.


As far as your over production of chicken, it's still a poor comparison. What you did was accidental and on a small scale compared to the groups production of meals. And I would hope that you wouldn't serve cold chicken to people. The entire intent of the group is to distribute food to people. They are dealing with many more mouths and a much higher probability of contamination. They need to comply with the health codes.

Like I have said before, the health codes are there for a reason. They really do keep people safe. I wouldn't give a potentially dangerous meal to someone, no matter what situation they were in. That's just irresponsible.

[armyowalgreens]

59. After rethinking my stance...

I actually realized that I am making a mistake. I am assuming the Health Department was sincere in their actions in order to counter your assumption that they were insincere.

I do not know the true intent behind their actions. I apologize for being so obtuse.

[KittyWampus]

98. I GREW UP in a restaurant bar buddy. Small family business who never really turned a huge profit

but paid bills but food on our family etc.

There are laws about how many people can be at a picnic. Over X amount you need a permit. Any kind of advertising or outreach and you're serving food to public.

[Obamanaut]

54. Is this food business that you work in the same one where you

got a job as a first time waiter a couple of weeks ago? And now an expert?

[armyowalgreens]

56. Yes. But I've been handling food for a while.

That was my first waiting gig.

My dad is the GM of a restaurant, I've helped him a lot over the years with pie packaging and other stuff, and I've worked with food banks before.

[Obamanaut]

60. I see. It's your dad who is in the food business. That's not what

your post implied, it was more of a "take it from me, I'm in the food business" not "my dad is in the food business and I followed him around."

I bet you're working at his restaurant, or that of one of his friends.

[armyowalgreens]

61. I agree. I was overly confident.

Also, I work in the same company as my dad, but not in the same restaurant. I just happened to find out about a job opening at another store from him.

[Obamanaut]

67. I am old. I have not always been old. From time to time a young

person will say or do things to give the appearance of 'gravitas' in order to appear more experienced, more wise, more many things. But, from time to time this ruse is transparent, and that young person will merely be seen as a poseur. (Sometimes old people do it too.)

You don't need to do that - I've read some of your stuff. Just be you, and you'll be fine. Trust me on this.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

90. I'm old, too, and trying to diminish

the young man's remarks because of your alleged "greater experience" is the sure sign of a crank without a clue. The kid made some great points, but because you couldn't legitimately counter them, you chose to put down his lack of years.

It's oldies like you that give the rest of us a bad name. Go be cranky on the shuffleboard court, where no one else will notice.............

[Obamanaut]

137. I have practically no experience in food service. I have been around

animals enough though to recognize an ass. And sure enough, one appears. Surprises me though, that one can type without opposable thumbs.

[KittyWampus]

99. I was in the food business since birth. What do you want to know? Ask me anything about serving

food, alcohol or providing a room for the night to the public.

You need to have permits and pass inspection. PERIOD.

[H2O Man]

119. Since birth?

[H2O Man]

131. Please!

"Since birth"? Tell us about the differences -- if any -- in your outlook at the age of 6 months, compared to 3 months? Or 9 months?

[Ignis]

175. Crawled out of a stock pot? Spawned from pate?

Spontaneous generation lives! ;)

[spoony]

123. Yep. Like those BS laws cities pass

about "sleeping with 50 feet of animal waste" (e.g. in a park) etc. It's about getting rid of the homeless while saying they care about their well-being.

[Odin2005]

239. Exactly. It's all about scewing the homeless using Nanny-State BS as an EXCUSE!!!

[ColbertWatcher]

167. I also understand that Upton Sinclair wrote The Jungle a few years before ...

... FNB started handing out food.

This is not a new thing, I'm sure if FNB is serious about helping people, they will be able to figure a way to continue helping people.

Getting in the news is a good first step.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

86. Oh, yes, we are...........

In fact, I've noticed that we're very often - almost always - on the same side of the matter, which makes me proud.............

[ColbertWatcher]

177. Here I was trying to make a joke about libertarians being self-indulgent, spoiled kids, then ...

... I take a day off from the thread and look what happens?

Damn.

Out here in California, we have these grades that restaurants have to put up in their windows to show everyone how well they did on their last health inspection.

Despite how easy it is to pass these things, there are still places that can't pass and are then shut down. They even publish monthly restaurant closings in the LA Times--complete with all the things the inspector found wrong.

Now I can't find a damn link, oh well, LA Times search function sucks anyway.

Nevertheless, with all the news these days about e. coli and salmonella turning up in places it shouldn't be, you'd think FNB would welcome a little help making sure their food isn't contaminated.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

196. I'm sorry, but I can't talk right now -

I'm busy, mourning the death of irony.

Graydon Carter claimed irony died on 9/11, although I'm still not sure what he meant by that.

This thread proves to me that irony is, truly, dead................................

[ColbertWatcher]

213. The funeral will certainly be closed casket.

Love that picture.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

216. You should see the ones I discarded,

attempting to maintain a semblance of good taste.

Was that wrong?

[ColbertWatcher]

217. If Fail Blog is wrong, I don't want to be right.

I don't ever want to be "right" (read: conservative), but that's not part of the bumper sticker I'm quoting.

[timtom]

45. I think I understand the mirror reference, now.

"jump on the Smug, Self-Righteous, Stupid Bandwagon"

[Odin2005]

238. The health codes are being selectively enforced in order to scew the homeless.

[armyowalgreens]

31. There is a reason why we have health codes. We don't want people sick.

It's not like the health department is out to get these people. They simply want to prevent food borne illness. Which is a big problem.


I see nothing wrong with the actions of the city.

[tkmorris]

36. They didn't do this to keep people from getting sick

They did this to keep the center of their town from being filled with homeless people every Sunday afternoon. They've been pulling this trick ever since the first hobo learned to hop a train.

[armyowalgreens]

37. Yes Yes I know your mantra already.

Thanks but no thanks.

I don't subscribe to opinion based theories.

[tkmorris]

43. My "mantra"?

Well that's insulting.

I know what I'm talking about. I would have thought that you, seeing how your Mom is being treated, would have a more open mind to how those in control manipulate events to their advantage. I guess you have some learning to do yet, though no doubt you will continue to act as if you know it all in the meantime.

I know what I'm talking about. I've seen it first hand many times. It's not a "mantra" or a "conspiracy theory", it's what they do.

[armyowalgreens]

46. I understand that you have first hand experience with situations like this...

But you don't have first hand experience with this situation. Which is why your theory is opinion based.

" 'I don't think we can pick and choose who we enforce the health codes for,' he says. 'Their cause is admirable. All we're asking is that they also try to honor the structures we've put in place to guard public health.' "

^That makes perfect sense to me. The government isn't always out to get people.


Simply because my mom is being dragged through the mud by corporate fat cats and asshole money-grubbers does not mean I have to hate every organization that comes into conflict with charitable people. Sometimes the conflict is legitimate.

[timtom]

48. This person seems to be also attempting

to "jump on the Smug, Self-Righteous....Bandwagon"

(As this person is not stupid, I elided the term from the quote.)

[GreenArrow]

58. You're right,

completely right, but you're not going to convince anyone.

[Freddie Stubbs]

78. Do you have any proof of that?

:shrug:

Or do you just like to throw out unfounded accusations?

[KittyWampus]

101. So what? The law is the law. It's a good law that protects people. The idiots who think they're so

cutting edge can go through same steps EVERYONE does who serves food to the public.

You think there are too many rules for groups trying to feed hungry to go through? Then get on the fucking ball and change the rules.

[anigbrowl]

170. Get the appropriate permit

Yes, it will cost some money, although often there's a fee exemption for very small or non-profit businesses. At worst it'll probably run them about $1000 (based on costs where I live).

[Obamanaut]

41. You agree with the city, but think they should thank the donors. Which one?

So, is the city right or wrong? The city should be thanking the donors, or you see no problem with the city shutting down the food giveaway program - which one is it?



31. There is a reason why we have health codes. We don't want people sick. It's not like the health department is out to get these people. They simply want to prevent food borne illness. Which is a big problem.


I see nothing wrong with the actions of the city.






34. Tin foil hat conspiracies? The homeless people didn't hike 20 miles from another town...They are homeless people from that town. If anything, the city should be thanking them for taking a little strain off the shelters.

[armyowalgreens]

42. Nope misinterpretation.

1. The city should be thanking the group for attempting to help the homeless and, in turn, alleviating the strain on homeless shelters.

2. However, they should be making sure that the food from the group is safe to consume.

I was addressing two different points.

[Obamanaut]

52. Nope, agreeing with two different points

"I see nothing wrong with the actions of the city." The city shut them down, and you see this as ok.

Or

"If anything, the city should be thanking them for taking a little strain off the shelters" The shelter gave away food, and the city should thank them.

You can't have it both ways. Pick a side.

[armyowalgreens]

53. Let me reword this then...

I'll get all the details in there so you can understand this.


I want the group to provide food to the needy. However, I also understand why they need to comply with the health code. So while I think the city should be thanking the group for trying to alleviate the strain on shelters, I agree that shutting them down until they comply is the only option.

[Obamanaut]

63. Let me word this so you can understand it also. You should be

able to recall from one post to the next what you have previously typed - sorta like normal conversation, but less noisy. If it looks like you have two different points of view, or seem to agree with two different points of view - someone will notice.

[dysfunctional press]

73. you need to work on your comprehension skills a little bit.

how hard is it to understand that someone can support the groups efforts, but also feel that they need to abide by existing laws when doing so...?

[Obamanaut]

138. How hard is it to put across one's ideas with clarity such that there

is no misunderstanding.

[Gormy Cuss]

97. Right. We'd prefer that they go without free food.

While I'm all for enforcing health code rules, tkmorris is correct in the assertion that the code enforcement of public free food distribution is a tool used by some municipalities to create a more hostile environment for the homeless. It's designed to keep them marginalized. Would they be better served by a fully inspected and approved food kitchen? Sure. Is there one available? Not always. When there is no alternative source other than dumpsters groups who provide fresh food in the park sound like a less risky proposition in terms of sanitation and food safety.

If there is no health department approved food program available then the food provided by groups like FNBs is most certainly increasing their food security in that it keeps them from going without a meal.

[ColbertWatcher]

166. Paranoia aside, it would be in the best interests of the charity ...

... to follow city health regulations if only to continue doing their charitable work.

If the city was as devious as we all know they secretly are, it would be easy for someone (call this person an agent provocateur, if you will) to make sure the patrons of FNB's free picnic handouts to get sick from the free food, thus making the charity look bad, consequently shutting them down and maybe even sending a few to jail.

What I don't understand is why can't FNB find some group in the city/state/nation to act as an umbrella for their work? Is there no one they can work with? Is there no other charity which can help them help the homeless?

Is there no lawyer willing to work pro bono to help them? No sympathetic soul to help fund their cause?

Why can't FNB get together with other charities that already have permits, knowledge about permits, know people who can get permits to help them get their paperwork straightened out?

It's not as if the city just invented food safety regulations in reaction to this recent development.

Or did they?

[Gormy Cuss]

174. Paranoia? Las Vegas and Orlando are two communities that tried banning the practice outright

A federal judge ruled against Orlando last year on the basis of inhibiting free assembly IIRC, so municipalities now are probably less likely to use that tack and are looking for other ways to stop the practice. Health code violation sounds like an easy one to employ.

FNB was involved in the Orlando case and if they're claiming here that the health code regulation doesn't apply I'm betting they've consulted with their lawyers.

As to why an organization doesn't tie in with another charity with permits and knowledge, I can't speak for FNB but that would be a good suggestion in an ideal world. The reality may be that such charities don't want to help because it's outside of their mission, want money to help, or flat out do not exist.

[ColbertWatcher]

187. Yes, paranoia.

I don't know much about Orlando, but as for Vegas, I can speak on this with a little authority.

It's hot as fuck in Vegas.

Encouraging people to be outside is not a good idea. Granted, elected officials are more likely to be on the fundy side of the political spectrum, which makes it unlikely they really give a shit whether people are outside or not, much less why people are out in the sweltering heat. Nonetheless, there is so much cooked food that gets uneaten in Vegas that, if FNB wanted, they could easily find some that has been properly cooked to distribute.

For some, it may appear to be nothing more than a warped game of moving the goalposts. Be that as it may, if FNB were serious about helping the homeless and promoting peace, all they would have to do is remind people that because of the Bush-GOP-Iraq quagmire, this country has fewer resources to deal with the problems of the ever-growing Bush-GOP-economic disaster. And even as they try to help feed the few people who are currently homeless, because of the past 8 years of Bush-GOP policies, there will be more people needing the kind of help they are trying to provide.

FNB needs to make sure people know who the real enemy is. It's not the bureaucrats at the county health department, but the anti-homeless, anti-stimulus, anti-social program partisan libertarian-GOPers who are targeting people who are penniless or about to become penniless.

FNB needs to work on their framing.

[Junkdrawer]

38. Read this thread and tell me again that DU hasn't changed....

Free Republic lite...

[NNN0LHI]

44. Something ain't right

[H2O Man]

55. Yep.

But some DUers are very much to the right. Curious.

[trotsky]

76. Quite curious.

You'd think liberals and Democrats would be on the side of food safety, no matter who it's going to. Just because you're homeless shouldn't mean your food isn't prepared under the same safety guidelines as that consumed by the non-homeless.

[Junkdrawer]

77. I have not read a cited instance of unsafe food. What I see is are fines...

for not using a "certified" kitchen.

Reading this thread, I agree it's MUCH more likely that this is about not attracting the homeless than it is about food safety.

[trotsky]

82. It can vary from location to location, but do you know what the guidelines are..

for having a certified kitchen?

They help ensure safe food handling and preparation. Basic things like keeping pets out of the kitchen and storing cleaning supplies away from food. Separate washing facilities for food and utensils/equipment. Everything, including decorations, must be completely washable.

Could the city have ulterior motives? Can't rule that out. (Can't say it with certainty either.) However there are legitimate and reasonable issues here regarding food safety too.

[KittyWampus]

102. WOW! So you think anyone should be able to cook food, stick a sign out and serve it to the public?

REALLY?

[NNN0LHI]

80. Do you call the police when you see neighbor kids open their lemonade stands?

Guess one has to be a good Democrat to do that?

Don

[trotsky]

83. I might if someone was selling red herrings! n/t

[Tangerine LaBamba]

93. Now, THAT's funny! n/t

[H2O Man]

116. I fully agree.

Throw away the keys, I say. Their crimes is worse than feeding the bears.

[trotsky]

136. I didn't think H2O and strawmen mixed very well.

But apparently they're just fine together.

[H2O Man]

163. I use them

for heavy bags.

[Ignis]

143. What a pantload.

This isn't about food safety. This is about keeping the homeless hidden out of sight.

Have you ever done food distribution in a major metropolitan area?

[Odin2005]

240. You would think liberals would be on the side of the homeless.

I guess I thought wrong. :cry:

[G_j]

66. yep

the lines are blurred more than ever

[Ignis]

142. I never thought I'd see "progressives" hate on FNB.

It's rather telling, isn't it?

[ColbertWatcher]

169. Your definition of "hate" is curious. Almost reactionary. n/t

[Ignis]

173. Really? I was going for more of a urban, streety flavor.

So you'd be calling my definition of the idiom "hate on" reactionary, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Care to explain?

[ColbertWatcher]

180. What I mean is that disagreements do not equal hate.

And no one is "hating on" FNB.

Some of us want FNB to succeed while they meet the progressive public health standards.

This doesn't have to be either/or.

[Ignis]

183. Ah, but you're projecting your own sanity on others.

I disagree that "no one" is "hating on" FNB. You're not, but there's some not-so-subtle dislike of FNB in some posts upstream.

Look at the timestamp of the post you're criticizing. :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

249. More like "Conventional Wisdom Mindlessly Repeated"

There was a Food Not Bombs group in Portland that used to set up outside a Fred Meyer store and urge passersby to buy some food to donate to them to distribute to people on the sidewalk. I once asked what they needed most, and one of the activists said that homeless people usually didn't get enough fruit in their diet, so I'd usually give them a bunch of bananas or a bag of tangerines. Since you don't eat the peel in either case, this was about as safe as you could get.

The only times I've ever gotten food poisoning was when, due to a complicated set of circumstances, I ate some food from a convenience store.

[heppcatt]

47. I have seen a few stories of this group being harrased

In many different towns.

[L0oniX]

57. "guard public health" by starvation ...asscarrots!

[ColbertWatcher]

195. That's quite a leap.

The city didn't just invent these regulations yesterday.

[L0oniX]

230. Usually those regs are to make the city look better for tourists ...I know that to be a fact here.

[dysfunctional press]

62. VERY misleading headline...

they aren't "sharing their food with someone", they're serving food to people, and there are health codes put in place for a reason.
it also probably wouldn't be very difficult for them to get the proper permits.

why do some people seem to think that they're above the law?

[H2O Man]

65. Darn them.

They should share food with others without serving it to them.

[dysfunctional press]

68. if you don't understand the difference between sharing and serving...

maybe you should sign up for some remedial english classes next semester.

[Junkdrawer]

70. Yeah, H2O Man, Learn how to read....

:sarcasm:

Don't take it too hard. Only so many arrows in their tiny, tiny quivers.

[dysfunctional press]

72. what would you suggest for someone who obviously doesn't understand the difference...

between "sharing" and "serving"...?

i suppose that he could just invest in a decent dictionary. :shrug:

[H2O Man]

114. Oh.

Now I feel .... so little.

You are silly.

[dysfunctional press]

122. well...you're half-right.

i'm not silly.

[H2O Man]

206. Oh, but you are.

You are a clown.

[imdjh]

109. There is no difference between this and a family reunion picnic

If I go to my family reunion picnic, I will be served food prepared by people I barely know in their home kitchens and brought to my second cousin's farm for the gathering.

How is that different from what these people are doing?

[dysfunctional press]

125. it's not a picnic.

and the people aren't family gathered on someone's farm.

they're serving food to the general public, on public property.

[imdjh]

144. So it really has nothing to do with health. Right?

I mean, either the concern is the potential for illness or it isn't. If the concern is the potential for illness, then my family reunion picnic ought to be supervised by the health department too. It's nice to know that they are concerned about the homeless more than they are my family, but it just seems so odd that they are.

[dysfunctional press]

148. of course it does.

your family reunion picnic is on private property, and you're not serving food to the general public.

is it REALLY that difficult for you to comprehend the difference?

[imdjh]

154. SO why do country clubs and churches have to be certified?

They are private property serving a members only crowd.

[H2O Man]

111. Gosh.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dysfunctional press]

150. he's entirely wrong on this one.

no matter how much you enjoy verbally felating him. :shrug:

[Ignis]

151. Your argument without support is like a broken pencil:

Pointless.

And before you cast asparagus about regarding the English language, you should probably learn a little about these things we call "punctuation" and "grammar." Of course, that would involve teaching you to read first, but I think it's time well spent!

:hi:

[Ignis]

176. Oh dear, was someone offended? My stars! (nt)

[conscious evolution]

158. you got that right

Anyone flaming on h2o is either totally clueless because of head up ass syndrome or freep.

[Ignis]

161. Careful, he'll accuse you of being gay, too!

Because any attempt at setting the record straight about a long-time, well respected DUer obviously equals a blow job.

Obviously.

[conscious evolution]

162. dysfunctional penis

must be jealous.

[KittyWampus]

103. no, they should follow the rules like every other charitable organization does.

[H2O Man]

112. Oh, definitely.

Every other charitable organization -- without question, without exception -- follows the rules. We need rules. Better a child suffers from hunger, than any rule be bent or broken.

[dysfunctional press]

129. by that 'logic' (or lack thereof) we should just get rid of all public health laws...

and usda food inspectors- lest they cause someone somewhere to feel a hunger pang.

:eyes:

laws are there for a reason, and the reputable organizations follow them.

[H2O Man]

130. I'm in full agreement

with your superior logic. Dang! Got me some fancy words from that new dictionary!

[dysfunctional press]

133. glad to help...

anytime. :hi:

and especially glad that you were able to see the light, regarding public safety and health codes.

[grantcart]

220. But the article seems to indicate that the group goes out of its way to break the rules

They are now serving using a nearby certified church and are under code but intend to fight the issue on principle.



For now, to satisfy the Health Department, FNB has arranged to prepare its meals in the certified kitchen of a nearby church. But Fred Carroll, who has emerged as unofficial spokesman for Middletown FNB, said the arrangement with the church, while appreciated, must not stand.



While it would be understandable if they had no alternative it seems that these folks are committed to not consider a reasonable alternative that would satisfy legal authorities who have made "many attempts to resovle the situation informally".


It seems that the Food not Bombs group wants the legal confrontation, perhaps as part of a larger ideological statement.

[H2O Man]

229. Yes, of course.

It is exactly that: part of what many of us believe is an essential part of a larger ideological issue. There is a degree of theater involved. Absolutely.

[Occulus]

75. If I post an open invitation to, say, my graduation party,

and include a note that food will be served, and please bring a dish to pass, am I in violation of the same health codes?

What about a potluck, or a family reunion? A church social?

Or are we presuming here that food-borne disease knows the difference between Function A, Function B, and Function C, and knows which functions are in compliance with health codes and which ones are not?

[trotsky]

85. The law is pretty clear when it distinguishes between

private, social gatherings versus charity-oriented food services. This program, which I support whole-heartedly, most definitely falls into the latter category and I believe the government has a legitimate reason to intervene. Even homeless people deserve safe food.

[KittyWampus]

105. If you have too many people there, you'll get fined for no Gathering Permit. And church socials

are done in churches that have INSURANCE.

And if you put out a sign inviting the public, you are serving food to the public.

Are DU'ers really this dense?

Cause if you make an exception for one group, you have to make them in more an more cases.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

135. That question you asked?

That's the scary part, isn't it?

[Freddie Stubbs]

79. Who pays the hospital bills if these people get food poisoning?

:shrug:

[AngryOldDem]

87. Most likely the taxpayer.

But...what will happen is, they will go to the hospital and will wait for hours without being seen and leave without being treated. Or, they will be seen, and will be given little or no treatment (other than rude treatment by the staff). So they will be out on the street, sick.

Seen it MANY times.

[Gormy Cuss]

100. The same people who pay the bills for their illnesses exarcerbated by malnutrition.

[spoony]

120. THANK you

Fantastic reply that brings the matter into its proper perspective. I can't believe there are people here who hold red tape above helping people. They'd probably have Jesus arrested for improper fish handling practices, too.

[Ignis]

146. "Jesus arrested for improper fish handling practices"

That gave me the giggles. :) Thanks.

[Gormy Cuss]

165. Well, there's no record of his health department permit number in the Bible.

I'm a pretty strict rules-are-rules type myself but I draw the line at denying people food, clothing, shelter and medical care because of red tape. For me it's an easy distinction.

[AngryOldDem]

84. I don't believe this. I really don't.

I mean, the damned nerve. The city requesting that food be properly prepared in a certified kitchen. I mean, how **dare** it enforce its own public health laws?

:sarcasm:

What they should do is call the local shelter and ask if they can come down and cook and serve a meal. I'm sure the offer would be warmly and gratefully accepted. But seriously, what pisses me off the most is this group using the hungry as a prop for its own agenda.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

94. Oh, stop making sense!

You're going to confuse all the self-proclaimed saviors who are determined to do good no matter how much harm they do..........

:hi:

[KittyWampus]

106. No kidding. Some church, temple, mosque or school MUST have a certified kitchen they'd be willing

to donate.

[dysfunctional press]

134. they do...but the idiots at fnb don't like being made to follow the rules-

from the article-

For now, to satisfy the Health Department, FNB has arranged to prepare its meals in the certified kitchen of a nearby church. But Fred Carroll, who has emerged as unofficial spokesman for Middletown FNB, said the arrangement with the church, while appreciated, must not stand.

"This is a worldwide thing and probably 90 percent of the Food Not Bombs organizations can't access a church," said Carroll. "That's a death blow for Food Not Bombs if they have to use a certified kitchen."

apparently fred carroll thinks that the new haven health code applies worldwide...? :shrug:

[imdjh]

108. What if they were just giving away peanut butter and jelly sandwiches?

[H2O Man]

127. Fair question.

To begin with, I have to admit that I used to think that feeding the poor was a good idea. Sure, republicans were against it. But I thought it was a good liberal/progressive value. Until I read this thread, and -- might I add -- took the advice of a super-intelligent mentor who informed me that I could benefit from the use of a dictionary.

Now I have a greater understanding. Only rigid, up-tight people who can't seem to follow the rules, don't "get it." There, but for the grace of the dictionary, ghost eyes (still learnin'.)

Now for the peanut butter and jelly sandwich. First, which brand of peanut butter? Poor people love "plain label" brands. That's why they scrape every last bit out of the plastic jars. They love it so much, they are known to steal it from stores -- which is against the rules. (They, too, need dictionaries.)

Now, good that you said "jelly," and not "jam." Most states have a federal law which is a rule -- at least when applied to the least -- that outlaws giving peanut butter and jam sandwiches to the poor. On Good Fridays, in some states, you can, so long as it is on little round waffers, and you speak in Latin (or play a guitar).

Now: what type of bread? This is where rules must strictly be enforced. Poor people do best when they consume the strarchy white bread that lacks in nutriotional value. You can buy it at the store. Do not, under any circumstance, even attempt to serve wheat or rye bread -- poor folks will not recognize it. Nor should you even dare think of homemade bread. It's dangerous. People have been known to stick razor blades in homemade bread, which they serve to little children on Halloween. Art Linkletter's daughter died from this. Or something.

If you have any more questions, please refer them to the expert on this thread, who has been active in the food business since birth. Child labor laws were not really rules back then. And three month old infants are often experts in the food business.

Gotta go read this knew dictionary.

[Junkdrawer]

149. +1 except you forgot "Self-involved idiots"...

Right there in the thread's very first reply...

Because it is clear that anyone who attempts to feed the homeless is totally absorbed in the Self...

[G_j]

153. and bat-shit crazy too

imagining that the "self" extends to other beings.

:sarcasm:
:shrug:

[H2O Man]

205. There is a vicious pack

of tiny chihuahua on this thread, growling and yapping mightily at their computer screens. They are determined to protect their masters' food from those who would share with the poor. But that is the nature of tiny, shaky, cowardly pups.

[Junkdrawer]

207. The ferocity has me thinking....

Are they anticipating bands of hungry, homeless dispossessed a la "The Grapes of Wrath"?

Do they think that the "Do Gooders" among them might attract these unsightly people to their neighborhoods?

[H2O Man]

209. That is one possibility.

I never assume that everyone on DU is either a liberal or progressive democrat. And even among those who are basically good at heart, in harsh times, many people become selfish, mistakenly thinking that will help them survive. It won't.

How hard of a heart is required to be ready to support the restriction of serving the poor food? How thick a skull is needed to keep a flicker of conscience out? We are witnessing it here, now, on DU.

[Junkdrawer]

212. I was just called a liar when I described our church's Shelter Meal program...

Yeah, I know that "conservatives" love to come here and show how easily they fool the liberals...but this is so mean spirited that there's no attempt to even pretend to be liberal. It catches me flatfooted.

[H2O Man]

215. In post #49,

I described my work at a local food bank. If anyone calls me a liar, that's fine. The lie exists in their mind alone.

[Ignis]

147. FNB's agenda IS feeding the hungry.

What other, secret agenda does your Telepathy Hat or Magic 8-Ball tell you that they're exploiting the hungry to promote?

[moriah]

179. And even if they are pushing another agenda at the same time....

....we allow charities to do that all the time.

There is no law that prohibits a religious organization from handing out tracts with their soup. They can even get federal funding now.

Looking at the articles the previous method of arranging for the food was potluck -- that people would cook things in their individual kitchens and bring them. So is potlucking a violation of health codes? When does potlucking become a violation? Is the monthly church potluck going to be shut down, all of the wives who cook being told they have to cook everything up at the church kitchen instead?

I could understand a bit more if they were using an institutional kitchen that wasn't certified, but I would like to hear a bit more about when the city decided potlucking became a health hazard. Is it a certain number of people being served that is the cutoff? Have there been any incidents of food poisoning from food served?

It does look like they are doing what I suggested the church wives who might be affected by this policy could do, but it's been indicated it's a temporary arrangement with another organization that has an inspected institutional kitchen for them to use. So at least they are not allowing The Man to interfere with their goal of feeding the hungry -- if they had stopped their services in the face of this lawsuit and then were using it for publicity I would feel a little more inclined to agree with the posters disapproving of this particular charity.

For those who do disapprove, I've never really heard of this group before. Do they have a history that you are taking into account?

[Ignis]

186. "When does potlucking become a violation?"

When the homeless are out in plain sight. :(

[moriah]

199. Considering my father was homeless recently....

... I know for a fact he didn't care what agenda the people who were helping him were pushing, and were just happy that they were willing to help him.

The fact he is HIV+ and tainted food could do him an injury, however, is a concern. That's why I was asking questions about food safety. He didn't ask questions when he was hungry and needed to eat -- starving would obviously be worse for his health. I'm certainly not going to suggest that feeding the hungry is wrong, and if cooking the food in individual kitchens potluck style gets people fed I am very happy. If this organization did have an incident where someone got food poisoning, however, that would cloud my views a bit.

I am impressed that they have found at least a temporary institutional kitchen to use to continue feeding the hungry and still meet state guidelines.

[Ignis]

203. Fair point: You must take the org's past behavior into account.

But institutional kitchens aren't a guarantee of food safety.

In this case, I think you'll find that FNB does a great job with food safety, given the obvious limitations of their type of organization. It's certainly less of a concern than dumpster diving or end-of-day restaurant dumps.

[Ignis]

185. Ha! I got suckered. :) Thanks for the edit, AOD. (nt)

[Annces]

117. This could be harrassment

I was just reading some cases won by Washington State ACLU yesterday and was happy to see their victories.


"Appeals Court Overturns Restrictions on Free Speech at Seattle Center
June 24, 2009

In a resounding victory for freedom of speech in public parks, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit today struck down City of Seattle rules restricting free expression at Seattle Center.

The ruling agrees with the views of an ACLU of Washington friend-of-the-court brief urging the rules be rejected as overly broad. The ACLU-WA pointed out that Seattle Center is a public park – a traditional place for Americans to express themselves – and that our Constitution provides strong protection to free speech in parks.

http://www.aclu-wa.org/

“In recent years, governments have sought to limit expressive activity in parks by treating them as ‘commercial zones’ where it is easier to limit speech. We’re very pleased the court rejected this trend toward privatizing public property,” said ACLU-WA Legal Director Sarah Dunne."

[crikkett]

128. I read about this group every once in a while

since the Iraq war started.

[Junkdrawer]

160. I guess this ends our church's Homeless Shelter Meals program...

Our church sponsors a homeless shelter that proves a temporary home to 20-30 homeless men. (Max stay of 1 week every 6 months - counseling provided.)

Now, the place has a small reheat kitchen, but neither the staff, money nor space to cook meals for 20-30 hungry men. So about 60 members of the church volunteer for Shelter Meals and, once a month, members cook 2 of 4 meal courses for 30 in their own homes and then transport the food to the shelter.

But, reading this thread, I now realize that we're all self-involved scofflaws. Oh well, better shut the place down and get with the program.

[ColbertWatcher]

171. That might just happen.

Provided that the church doesn't pass the already existing health codes.

Although, the church could probably find out what the secret health codes are and work to follow them.

I don't know.

Some of those health codes are actually written in code. And the standards change from day to day and use imaginary measurements like Fahrenheit and Celsius. I know those words aren't in the Constitution.

[KittyWampus]

178. Bullshit. I think you are making shit up about your church's program. They are intentionally and

knowingly breaking the law?

I highly doubt it.

And even if it's true, the members are covered because the church is INSURED.

[ColbertWatcher]

181. You bring up a good point.

Are there no churches that FNB can work with?

No faith-based charities willing to assist in feeding the hungry?

[Junkdrawer]

200. Nope. Truth. There are people who buy food and cook it for strangers....

This may not fit your worldview, but it happens.

[rucky]

194. You wouldn't eat food that came from someone's kitchen, would you?

:crazy: :crazy:

This Forth of July, I'm letting Burger King do the barbecuing for me!

[Greyhound]

172. All this distraction and defense of the indefensible, yet mine was only the fourth Rec.

It is always the same group, always making the same asinine arguments.

There an evil odor here, and it's not spoiled chicken.

ETA; Is The Party feeling a little exposed?

[glitch]

192. Very busy on this thread, indeed. K & R nt

[Odin2005]

241. The limo-driving fake liberals are comming out of the woodwork

They are probably scared that the homeless will hurt their property values.

[KittyWampus]

243. I'd say the Libertarians and Anarchists are coming out of the woodwork trying to defend assholes

who COULD follow the rules (since they do have access to a kitchen that is up to legal code) but purposely choose not to.

So next time the Far Right starts bitching about some regulation they don't like, you can step out of the equation.

[sendero]

182. IMHO..

.... the only people who should have to follow "health regulations" (which are a total farce, ask how often these 'safe' kitchens are inspected) are people who are SELLING food.

If these regulations apply to those who are giving food away, the next time the mayor has a dinner party he should be cited for giving out food that was not cooked in an approved kitchen.

This of course is just more oppression, it has nothing to do with food safety.

[armyowalgreens]

184. The kitchen at my work was just inspected 3 days ago. It will be reinspected on the 7th.

You aren't arguing that health codes are pointless are you?

[ColbertWatcher]

189. Wrong.

It would be too easy for someone to make FNB look bad by making people sick.

With all the stories in the news about contaminated food, it would be in FNB's best interests to follow public food safety guidelines.

In fact, it would be in everyone's best interests to do that.

[ColbertWatcher]

193. Is this just more Reagan-worship?

Wasn't it Reagan who said the government isn't the solution, but the problem?

Here is a charity trying to feed people but The Man™ is preventing them from doing good work!

It's not the city's fault, or the charity's fault, but the fault of regulations!

This news piece seems to be pushing the idea that all we need to do to make the world a better place is to do away with regulations all together!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

197. Are you maintaining

that deregulation has failed?

I mean, look how well the airline industry did with it. And banking.

No regulations. The only way to go. Absolutely.

It's good enough for Phil Gramm, it's good enough for me...........

[ColbertWatcher]

201. Why, I am shocked that you would suggest that I would suggest such a thing.

I should report you to the authorities.

Or, rather, deal with you myself since reporting you to the authorities is simply relinquishing my responsibilities to some government bureaucrat.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

204. Maybe later -

I'm off to have Phil Gramm's face tattooed on my knee.

He'll smile whenever I kneel in church, because he'll be glad that I'm doing all I can to protect this great Christian nation of ours.

Prayer and good intentions work so much better than regulations, don't you know?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_LU0UAZ407Hs/SV1m4Z1u_zI/AAAAAAAACUg/UnVmMCoHlXk/s400/phil+gramm.png

[ColbertWatcher]

210. Regulations are so unChristian.

Why, I challenge anyone here to find one single regulation in the Bible.

Or the Constitution, which is based on the Bible.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

214. To quote a great DUer -

"End of thread"............................

[meow2u3]

211. Steal from the hungry and you get a medal of honor

:wtf:

[grantcart]

221. I was surprised that the many responses in the thread did not

seem to respond to the facts in the article that seem to indicate that "Food not Bombs" wants the legal confrontation, perhaps as part of a larger ideological statement.

It seems that the authorities were reluctant to pursue the case formally and tried informal means.


It is also clear that there are other alternatives available but that Food not Bombs rejects these on some sort of principle.
Apparently using a certified kitchen in New Haven is to be objected to because it could theoretically increase the pressure on a non certified kitchen operation for Food not Bombs in some other theoretical location:

For now, to satisfy the Health Department, FNB has arranged to prepare its meals in the certified kitchen of a nearby church. But Fred Carroll, who has emerged as unofficial spokesman for Middletown FNB, said the arrangement with the church, while appreciated, must not stand.


"This is a worldwide thing and probably 90 percent of the Food Not Bombs organizations can't access a church," said Carroll. "That's a death blow for Food Not Bombs if they have to use a certified kitchen."

[Tangerine LaBamba]

222. I rest my case -

it's very clear that these folks are doing good works, using the hungry to advance their own political and legal goals.

Hence, my characterization of these people in the first response, and look how far afield this whole matter went. Some ugly namecalling, lots of personal attacks, nit-picking ad nauseum, and the demand that you had better toe the party line - that to serve food to the hungry is good, to question the way it is done is bad - positively reeks of the good old days back at the Gulag.

The hungry are getting fed, but the FNB aren't getting to do it the way they wanted to do it, and so now, who will be their pawns?

So, while eschewing government intervention in the form of requiring compliance with existing health codes, they run right into Federal court.

Gotta love it. Maybe irony isn't dead, after all.

But critical thinking certainly has taken a hit.............

[Ignis]

223. If that's "the party line," sign me up for the party.

...the demand that you had better toe the party line - that to serve food to the hungry is good, to question the way it is done is bad - positively reeks of the good old days back at the Gulag

And thus, we jump the shark.

[Forkboy]

227. I've done volunteer work for FNB. You clearly are not familiar with them in the slightest bit.

Look them up in your area and talk to some of them. It will be an enlightening experience for you.

[KittyWampus]

242. if their schtick is "fuck the health code" which is CLEARLY true in this case, it just proves

they are assholes. Maybe this libertarian streak is just this one group. But why anyone on DU would defend breaking Health Code regulations just because they WANT to is beyond me. And that is what this particular group is doing.

[Ignis]

246. Yeah, that's their agenda. Way to miss the point. (nt)

[Lorien]

225. Maybe they'll arrest mothers for giving away lunches to their kids that don't

come from certified kitchens. The point is that Food not Bombs is trying to pass themselves off as just a bunch of private citizens who are sharing their lunch for free. They aren't selling anything. Same as a person who brings in a batch of homemade cookies to share with the whole office; such an action is legal in the city of Orlando, while officially feeding the poor is not.

[Forkboy]

228. Another heartwarming thread on DU on the topic of hunger and poverty.

Between the ignorance about FNB and the right wing style mental contortions this thread became exactly what I predicted it would when I first saw it with no replies.

[Kansas Wyatt]

235. Umm.... Has our Government actually been looking out for our 'health & safety?'

Or has our Government been allowing the Food Supply Cartels to poison America?

Sure, fine the jaywalker, but ignore the Stretch Hummer Limo mowing over people on the sidewalks.

[WolverineDG]

244. If everyone has to get a food handlers permit & follow the public health code

I don't think FNB should think it is exempt from them. My high school class reunion group will be doing a fundraiser tomorrow at our town's 4th of July celebration & everyone who is handling the food had to go to a special class to get the food handlers permit & pass a TB test. If you couldn't make it to the class, you can't touch the food. Due to the fire codes, the meat can't be cooked at the booth, but at a special designated area where everyone selling meat will be grilling, so special handling has to be in place for transporting the cooked meat to the booth as well. In short, it's a PITA, but we're doing it.

This is not a case of one person making a casserole & taking it to a friend, or two people sharing a sandwich. It's an organization that makes food to distribute to the public.

dg

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

245. Yeah but what a motivator!

:woohoo:

[eppur_se_muova]

247. ... with liberty and justice for all. Oh, wait, that's not legally binding. nt