Honduras and the center right split brain syndrome

[endarkenment]

as seen here on DU (and no I am not going to post a link) a defense of the rightwing military coup in Honduras includes the assertion that the military acted to protect democracy by 'arresting' the elected president, and it appears also by shooting one prominent left wing presidential contender. The same political perspective here (although not the same posters, as far as I can tell) denounces the president of Venezuela as a dictator despite the simple fact that he has been elected twice in fair and open elections. Military juntas are democratic, elected leaders are dictators.

Part of the justification for concluding that a military coup is 'democratic' includes a lot of finger pointing back at Chavez, asserting that the centrist Zelaya is a Chavista in waiting, determined it seems to overthrow democracy by having a referendum on a constitutional convention. How a referendum constitutes a dire threat to freedom is left as an exercise for the reader.

I don't quite get how people manage this sort of thought process. Fairly elected leaders are dictators, military coups are democratic. Worse, any association with the fairly elected democratic leader of Venezuela is justification in itself for the violent overthrow of an elected government. It boggles my mind. Are these arguments intended to be serious, or is this argument by bluster and lie, a tactic quite in favor on the overt right but which I naively thought was frowned on here on this progressive message board?

[Mythsaje]

1. I have no freakin' idea.

Struck me as weird too.

[subsuelo]

32. Anyone calling Chavez a 'dictator' merely exposes their ignorance

I usually just move on when I hear or read that, realizing that the person stating so isn't exactly in possession of any deep knowledge of LatAm

[metapunditedgy]

2. CNN says the legislative and judicial bodies of Honduras had already rejected the referendum.

So, if true, that's an important piece of information that you should include.

[Taverner]

4. Irrelevant

Why wasn't the same defense of "Democracy" put in place when Ollie North went around congress?

[anigbrowl]

10. Why is it irrelevant? They have a constitution there, you don't think they should follow it?

Would you have supported Bush if he had proposed a referendum on staying in power for a third term? Everyone who is blaming right-wingers over this conveniently leaves out the facts that Zelaya was:

a) acting in violation of Honduras' constitution
b) calling the Supreme court rejection of his referendum plan a 'coup' before the military got involved
c) proposing a referendum about changing the term limit on his own job - can you say conflict of interest?

I'm not supportive of the military coup, but neither am I supportive of sitting presidents trying to remove consitutional term limits on their stay in office. It would be different if he were proposing a change that would only take effect after he left office. The fact that supporters of Zelaya keep leaving out this info is rather telling.

[Odin2005]

16. Because the Chavez-bots don't care if someones a dictator as long as he's THEIR dictator.

Same mindset as the right-wingers who supported Pinochet, just different ideology. That they think Obama can act like a dictator and enact super-progressive legislation with a snap of his finger is also concerning.

[Taverner]

18. If you've read my previous posts I am neither pro nor anti Chavez

He started off good, but in the past few years he has damaged his country's democracy in big ways.

Look - running a referendum may have been struck down by the country's supreme court, but did this warrant a coup d'etat? And yes, it was a coup.

Like I said in another post, if we were subject to such punishment, half of our presidents would have been removed in coups over time.

[endarkenment]

22. Pinochet actually was a dictator.

Oddly you are expressing exactly the rightwing splitbrain syndrome I am talking about. Do you really not get the difference between a democratically elected president of a republic with fair and open elections and the military leader of a junta that seized power from a democratically elected government?

[Odin2005]

26. You misunderstood me. I wasn't Calling Zelaya a dictator.

I was making a flippant remark about how some "progressives" seem to be quick to defend with unconstitutional, authoritarian behavior if it comes from fellow left-wingers. I am no way defending the coup, I am criticizing the notion that Zelaya was completely innocent in this clusterf*ck.

[Ken Burch]

31. Bullshit. You WERE calling Zelaya a dictator.

You've been contemptuous of anticoup people(who are the only pro-democracy voices in these threads).

Are you really that scared of the poor getting a real say in politics?

They can't under your kind of "democracy".

[Odin2005]

37. Holy jumping to conclusions Batman!

I've been "contemptuous" of the "anti-coup" posters as so far they were being Chavez-bots and engaging in black-and-white thinking. I am no way supporting the coup. Saying that criticizing Zelaya = supporting the coup is black-and-white thinking.

"Are you really that scared of the poor getting a real say in politics?"

Did you quit beating your wife? :crazy: I'm not exactly well off myself (I get SSI because I have trouble holding a McJob because I have Asperger's Syndrome) so you are basically accusing me of not wanting myself to have a say in politics? :eyes: Oh, and I think Uribe and Chavez are BOTH authoritarian putzes, for the record. One uses US-backing to maintain power and the other whips up anti-US rhetoric to do the same thing.

[Ken Burch]

39. The Honduran political class, if you hadn't realized that, are antidemocrartic elitists

They object to what Zelaya is trying to do because they don't want elite control of Honduran politics to be challenged. The "Liberal-National" party divide in Honduras is an imititation of the old Venezuelan "Liberal-Conservative" arrangement, an arrangement(the Punto Blanco pact, I believe it was called)that was designed to keep the poor and especially the poor of color(most of Venezuela is black or mestizo, none of whom really supported the old parties)out in the cold and to reduce politics to a bland middle-class debate club. Hugo Chavez has been demonized(by propaganda that seduced you, for some reason)because he's the first politician in Venezuelan history that actually included the poor and the workers(people like you and I)in the political process. The "opposition:" there wants the old middle-class center-right permanent austerity days back. It's that same wish that drives the anti-Zelaya, anti-democracy conspirators.

Those people are not on your side, and if you lived in Honduras you probably wouldn't be able to afford medication for your Asperger's thanks to them.

You need to stand with the global majority. There's nothing the "market values" types stand for that is good for you.

[Odin2005]

43. So I should support a populist dictator (Chavez) just because he claims to support the little guy?

Sorry, the ends do not justify the means. I want liberal democracy and a good Keynesian welfare state, not Huey Long.

[Ken Burch]

45. In Latin America, people like Hugo are all the poor and the workers have.

"liberal democracy" down there means letting the right make the left water everything down to nothing. Like Lula, who's given up on doing anything different from the center-right.

And Chavez isn't a dictator. If he were, there wouldn't still be opposition papers and tv in Venezuela.

The cricitism of "Chavismo" down there is all from elitists who don't want the poor to have a political voice. Don't be fooled.

[Odin2005]

47. Power corrupts. Look at Mugabe.

Zimbabwe is an extreme example, of course, but it shows why a liberal-democratic government with checks and balances and limits to government power is necessary for reform that lasts, the populist demagogue that promises you the moon can all of a sudden take it all away.

Just because there is still opposition media doesn't mean Chavez is not a dictator. Much of the opposition media has an obvious and strident right-wing bias and thus merely reinforces his support. If a neutral media outlet appeared, however, it would be a threat to his support and he would be forced to suppress it.

[Mudoria]

49. If Hugo is all the poor have then they are in deeper shit than I feared

[endarkenment]

51. Again: democratically elected in fair and open elections.

And you too are supporting military coups, which you justify as an expression of democracy, over elected leaders, whom you refer to as dictators. And you seem to not get just how distorted your world view is.

[Odin2005]

52. I DO NOT SUPPORT THE COUP!

Criticizing Zelaya does not mean I support the fucking coup!

[endarkenment]

50. You called Chavez, the democratically elected president of Venezuela

a dictator and compared him to Pinochet, the fascist leader of a military coup that overthrew the democratically elected leader of Chile. You have rightwing split brain syndrome, and you display it on this board a lot, especially when you are being 'flippant'.

Nice try, and quite successful I might add, to divert your error by pretending that you were being misunderstood.

[Odin2005]

53. An elective dictatorship is still a dictatorship.

[endarkenment]

54. fair and open elections

not a dictatorship. You can correctly criticize Chavez for lots of things, but he is the elected leader of his country, elected in open and fair elections, he is ruling fully within the democratic framework of the Venezuelan republic and is not, at this point in time, in any commonly accepted meaning of the word, a dictator.

The fact that you confuse elected leaders ruling within a democratic republic with dictators and confuse military coups with democracy is, as I state in my OP, an example of rightwing split brain syndrome.

[Odin2005]

57. One can win free and open elections and still be a dictator.

A dictator is defined by how much unconstrained power he/she has, not how one gets that power.

And I already said that I don't support the coup.

[endarkenment]

58. If you are constrained by the electorate your power is not unconstrained.

You can continue to assert that Chavez is a dictator, unfortunately, by your own definition Chavez fails your test. You do understand, or at least you should understand, that Venezuela has a recall provision that can end the president's term at any time, right? Chavez does not wield unconstrained power, and any elected official who must stand for election in fair and open elections, and must rule within a constitutional framework that limits power while in office, and is subject to recall by the people at any time is simply not a dictator.

When you toss around terms like dictator against elected officials you do not like, and offer justifications for military coups you do seem to be not exactly firmly opposed to, you are engaged in rightwing split brain syndrome.

[Ken Burch]

30. Why is it being a dictator to give the people direct power?

It's not like Zelaya was ever going to line anyone up to be shot.

Besides, if Venezuela still had presidential term limits, the right would have manipulated the situation to force the left majority to water its program down to nothing.

[subsuelo]

34. notice the Right's lack of condemnation regarding Uribe's attempts to end term limits

[Ken Burch]

35. Indeed. The right only speaks up when the poor find a way to stand up to them.

The people who are anti-Zelaya are middle-class and rich Spanish-descent elitists who want Congress to be nothing but their private debating chamber and think the poor should "know their place".

[Odin2005]

44. One can be a populist without shiting on your country's constitution.

Christ, we just went through 8 years of a president that wiped his rear with the Constitution, the same thing doesn't suddenly become good when we do it.

[Ken Burch]

46. This was the only chance of changing the constitution

The elite-controlled Honduran Congress would never allow the poor to get an equal voice with them.

[Odin2005]

48. That's when you start up big demonstrations to get the politicians to get off their asses

If we got several million people marching in DC for Single Payer health-care the clowns in congress would get the message.

[Taverner]

17. While all of that is true, the punishment (removal) does not match the crime

If it did, half of the American Presidents of the 20th century and all of them before the 20th century would have been removed from office.

[anigbrowl]

20. Perhaps not, but...

nor does the Supreme court's refusal to back his referendum last week amount to a coup, as the guy was claiming. I can't help feeling that when he didn't get what he wanted politically, he tried to up the stakes and they called his bluff.

[endarkenment]

23. Huh? The coup was when the coup happened.

You know, the one recently denounced by the Obama administration, the OAS, most Latin American governments, etc.?

[anigbrowl]

25. Surprisingly, no.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/world/americas/26briefs-Honduras.html?_r=1 <- note the date please

"Honduras: Term Limit Dispute Deepens

"The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected President Manuel Zelaya’s dismissal of the country’s senior military officer, deepening a constitutional confrontation over Mr. Zelaya’s effort to lift the limit of a single four-year term for presidents. Mr. Zelaya vowed to push ahead with an unofficial vote scheduled for Sunday to measure public support for lifting term limits. At a rally in Tegucigalpa, the capital, he told supporters that the court’s decision amounted to a coup. He said Wednesday that he had fired the officer, Gen. Romeo Vásquez, after the military refused to help conduct the vote."

[EFerrari]

41. Oh, fer Christ's sake. He couldn't have removed his term limit via a survey

and even if the process went forward, IT WOULD BE TOO LATE FOR HIM TO BENEFIT FROM IT because it couldn't be ocmpleted before his term is up.

lol

The fact that this has to be explained to you over and over is also very telling.

[metapunditedgy]

24. Of course its not irrelevant. If you want a discussion, present the facts.

If you want to argue propaganda, then it's a waste of time (until people start believing it).

That said, I'm sure the situation is very complicated and goes beyond what I understand or what the media are reporting. But that's why I'm interested in getting the full story.

[Ken Burch]

33. Anytime someones says, at a time like this that "the situation is very complicated"

That's code for "I'll back the coup when things die down in a couple of week".

You've just showed your class bias.

You're the sort that wants democracy to be nothing but middle class centrists politely chatting about the glory of Jefferson or something, while ignoring the working-class Rainbow majority that they're leaving to rot.

[Odin2005]

40. LOL, I think you have just showed your ideological dogmatism.

Typical Marxist BS, accuse anyone who disagree with you of "class bias" and thus "just regurgitating bourgeoisie thinking". This is exactly the nonsense Karl Popper famously demolished in The Open Society and It's Enemies.

[metapunditedgy]

56. Any time somebody leaves important facts out of a story,

they're pushing propaganda. I have no support for either side right now; I want to hear the facts. (And spare the "class bias" insults.)

[Ken Burch]

59. The only thing I left out was the right-wing pro-coup official line

The position of the so-called "Congress" and the "Supreme Court" were irrelevant. There is no right for the military to remove a sitting president. Anywhere. Ever.

[EFerrari]

42. No, the situation is not all that complicated.

You don't resolve a constitutional crisis with a violent military coup and a repression.

[metapunditedgy]

55. I'm not supporting the coup. I am opposing the propaganda.

You're talking about something different than I am.

[timeforpeace]

6. Besides opposition from the Congress, the Supreme Court, the electoral tribunal and the attorney

general, his own party in Congress sponsored a resolution last Thursday to investigate whether he is mentally unfit to remain in office. It's possible that many Hondurans are going to be celebrating Zelaya's foreign excursion. Street protests against his heavy-handed tactics had already begun last week as well as the action in Congress. It was like all of Honduras vs him. He accepted a plea bargain to go to Costa Rica to avoid prosecution. Another fact you omit.

[readmoreoften]

9. Yes, and what the people want is a right-wing military coup!

Would've we wanted an extreme-right wing military coup to have taken out Idiot Son? I don't think so. Just because Zelaya is a typical corrupt politician doesn't mean the people of Honduras want a School of Americas military coup.

Another fact YOU omit.

[readmoreoften]

8. This situation is crystal clear to anyone who knows the history of 20th century Latin America.

The fact that CNN is skewing the information towards making it less "coup-y" only makes it more typical.

[Ken Burch]

28. That still couldn't justify a military coup.

In a free society, the civilians are always supposed to be above the army.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

3. I'm gonna ask the same question I asked in another thread:

If this is all so legit, why isn't Mr. or I should say President Zelaya in jail awaiting his trial? It seems to me a "little strange" that he gets whisked in the middle of the night and dumped into another country. Does anyone else find this "strange"?

If he broke the law then isn't there some kind of judicial process for Honduran citizens that should be followed?

[ColbertWatcher]

12. That is a good question. n/t

[fascisthunter]

14. same was done to Haiti's last Democratically Elected President

Aristide was his name.

[Warpy]

5. To tell you the truth, I haven't been following that closely

except to note that it was a military coup, and those are extremely unlikely to favor either the citizens or the left.

[readmoreoften]

7. Because the "Center Right" is the "Far Right" with jobs programs for the middle class.

The idea that spectrums and compasses can act as a metaphor for politics is a funny concept indeed.
*The far right is actually another type of political system altogether: it represents a global plutocracy with nationalist-religious bordered regions.
*The center right is global plutocracy with less concern for nationalism or religion.
*The paleoconservative movement represents an ossified idealist formula that dreams of halting capitalist development to mid-18th century levels while keeping iPods and cable news.
*The self-identified centrists are actually center-right.
*The "moderate left" are Keynesian neoliberal reformists who want to save capitalism by bestowing some health care and benefits to the working population, and who can't seem to understand why they are constantly thwarted by military keynesianism.
*The so-called "FAR LEFT" are the Green party, Kucinich, Democratic Progressives, the Nation etc. who locate solutions in "communities" and want to fight power through unwinnable elections, protest, and cultural takeover. Cultural anarchists often align themselves with this group, although they are scornful of them.
*The actual left are organized anti-Stalinist revolutionary socialists and (less organized) anarcho-syndicalists/autonomists (a few Maoists and 4th internationalists groups exist as well in the US, but they are relatively small.)

[Odin2005]

19. HAHAHA!!! Oh, wait, you seriously believe that BS in you post...

:crazy:

[Hutzpa]

11. This stinks

Where was Sanford again?

Gov.Sanford took one for the team....he went to Argentina to visit his girlfriend
and couple days later, we have a coup in Honduras by a right wing military.

Whooooooooppppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


Thats your real story.


Visiting his girlfriend was a facade.

[fascisthunter]

13. Because they are liars

and trolls astroturfing... that's how. Plenty of info is posted on this forum for me to have a very hard time believing these people could ever be that ignorant.

[Odin2005]

15. What I've been hearing is that Zelaya was trying to pass off an unconstitutional referendum...

...as a "public opinion poll" and that the other branches of government kept telling him to quit the BS.

[endarkenment]

21. and in your mind that justifies a military coup?

How?

[Odin2005]

27. Of course not.

Criticizing Zelaya in no way equals defending the coup.

[Ken Burch]

36. Funny, all you've done in the Honduras threads is spew abuse at those who support democracy

Why do you have such an elitist view of politics and life?

[Odin2005]

38. Wow, that's quite Rovian-type spin you are engaging in.

I don't like Chavez and think Zelaya isn't a saint so I am against democracy? What kind of Freeper-illogic is that? :eyes:

[Ken Burch]

29. Well, you've been hearing golpista propaganda.

Don't feel bad...the lies fooled a lot of other DU'ers.