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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 09:30 PM
Original message
Torture, Civilization, and the Need to Hold Torturers Accountable
If history has ever a lesson to teach us, it is to warn us against being overawed by the clattering of a bully’s saber… The essential greatness of a country does not depend on the extent of its empire nor on the number of its armed forces nor on the efficiency of its military machine, but on the free spirit of enquiry which enables the patrimony of the past to be retained… The example of Spain is enough to warn us that it matters not that a nation gain the whole world if it lose its soul – From “The Spanish Inquisition”, by Cecil Roth


Of all the terrible things that my country has done over the past several years, its descent into torture is what bothers me most. That is why I’ve written on that subject on DU more than on any other subject. The torture perpetrated by our country over the past several years was neither the work of “a few bad apples”, nor were its victims confined to a few bad terrorists. Rather, it was authorized by the highest levels of our government, and its practice was widespread and often indiscriminate. I discuss some of the evidence for that in detail in this post.

So why is it that there is not more outrage in our country about this? Are not most Americans decent people? Well, for one thing we have been constantly told by our government that the “enhanced interrogations”, or whatever you want to call it, were carried out only with the best intentions, against some of the “worst of the worst” people to ever walk the earth.


Torturers ALWAYS claim good and pure motives for their torture

But the first thing that we all need to understand about torture is that those who practice it, order it, or supervise it ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS claim that it is done with best of intentions and for the best of reasons. Dick Cheney and George Bush remind us over and over again that they did what they did to protect the American people, which they considered their sacred responsibility. So have torturers throughout the history of the world told their citizenry similar things. George Riley Scott makes this point in his book, “A History of Torture:

Justification on the ground of its efficiency, which was so often attempted in relation to torture as a means of securing confessions of guilt from those charged with heresy and sorcery, is actually conditioned by the need for finding a victim upon which to wreak the vengeance of society, and, vicariously, the vengeance of God. Such justification acts also as a means of suppressing… any sense of injustice in society as a whole, and in those individual (torturers)… On these lines it is easy to justify any form of barbarity, and it is in this way that, through the ages, the most monstrous inquisitions and persecutions have been vindicated. Thus the justification, in our own time, of Negro lynchings, of Bolshevist atrocities… of brutal floggings…


Torture almost ALWAYS does far more harm than good

All the torture that we carried out during the past several years (or at any other time in our history) has done us far more harm than good. I discuss some of the evidence for that in this post. For one thing, the “confession” tortured out of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi served as a major excuse for our invasion of Iraq: Jonathan Schell explains:

The centerpiece of (Colin) Powell's speech before the UN Security Council justifying the invasion of Iraq devoted a full nine paragraphs to a "senior terrorist operative" who "fortunately...is now detained." Libi, though unnamed, was the star of the performance. Powell unwound a long tale of terrorists and weapons of mass destruction (all subsequently disavowed by Libi as well as otherwise discredited). Al Qaeda, Powell said, had been pursuing weapons of mass destruction in Afghanistan but, finding the resources inadequate, had needed "to look outside of Afghanistan for help." So "they went to Iraq," where they received "chemical or biological weapons training." Thus did Powell weave together the two main fabrications about Iraq – that it was pursuing weapons of mass destruction and was cooperating with Al Qaeda. And Iraq's avowals to the contrary? "It is all a web of lies," he said.

The moment is worth dwelling on. In the most dramatic and widely watched presentation of the case for war, the secretary of state, a man of high reputation at home and abroad, was conveying perjured testimony exacted by torture to the entire world… The war, as we learned later from the photos of Abu Ghraib, produced torture. But before that happened, torture had produced the war.

Matthew Alexander, former senior interrogator with an elite task force in Iraq, sheds further light on the subject. He explains that not only did none of our torture save lives, but it cost us hundreds, or maybe thousands of American lives. From his interviews of al Qaeda prisoners captured in Iraq, he found that the number one reason for them coming to Iraq to fight U.S. forces was the fact that we tortured their fellow Muslims.


Torture is almost NEVER done with good intentions

But these specific examples are almost besides the point. The fact is that, despite the fact that torturers ALWAYS claim the best of reasons for their torturing, in fact they almost always do it for the worst of reasons. Let me put it this way. If anyone is aware of any examples of a nation that used torture as an instrument of policy where that practice produced more good than harm, then please let me know. I am not aware of any.

Let’s consider a recent article by David Swanson as just one of a multitude of examples:

I was reading yesterday about a boy who was probably 12 years old when our nation imprisoned him in 2002. We held him in Afghanistan… We put a hood on him, stripped him, shackled him and shoved him down stairs. We brought him to Guantanamo, kicked him, beat him, broke his nose, pepper sprayed him, and deprived him of sleep for many days. In 2003 he tried to kill himself by slamming his head against a wall. This boy, like most Gitmo captives, does not stand accused of international terrorism. And the evidence that this boy had, at 12 years old, fought back against the illegal aggressors in his country comes from torture, so our government is seeking to hold him forever without putting him on trial. He's now 19, having spent his entire teenage years in a death camp, in a place where the only way out appears to be death…

Striking evidence of the malign intentions of our torture policies is shown especially by a 2005 analysis of 44 autopsies reported by the ACLU, of men who died in our detention facilities. That study found 21 of the 44 deaths evaluated by autopsy to be homicides:

The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated. The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

Keep in mind that that study involved only a small fraction of the total number of detainees dying in the largely secret U.S. prison system since September 11, 2001. We will probably never know for sure the full extent of these barbaric homicides.


Torture and civilization

Schell explains why torture is so closely associated with barbaric civilizations:

In the moral and affective vacuum that has been generated, sympathy, empathy, pity, understanding – every form of fellow-feeling – have been reduced to absolute zero. That is why torture is always … an "undoing of civilization," and, probably more reliably than anything, it foretells the descent of a civilization into barbarism.… The degradation of civilization is real.

George Scott expands on this by describing torture as a means of expressing power:

In this vengeance inherent in all forms of torture lies the key to its use as an expression, by the individual, of the will to power, and, by the State, of authority and autocratic domination. The expression or satisfaction of this demand for vengeance… has formed a part of the policy adopted by every leader of mankind, starting with the chief, the king, or the emperor, and descending, through various stages, to the mob leader… or the gangster chief… Nothing was, and nothing is, better calculated to enhance the prestige and authority of the leader than the handing over to his followers, for punishment, of their enemy…

Paul Grenier, a former Russian interpreter for the U.S. State Department and U.S. Army, and a graduate of the Averell Harriman Institute for Advanced Soviet Studies (Columbia University) recently discussed with me the views that many Sovietologists have expressed to him in private on the implications of current U.S. policy regarding preventive incarceration and torture. Paul told me that, whereas most Americans are generally not at all prone to recognize this, all of the Sovietologists whom he is aware of see a striking similarity between these policies and the policies of the former Soviet Union under Stalin.

He also touched on this issue during a recent meeting that he and I had with the staff of our Congressman, Chris Van Hollen, in which we urged him to support measures to investigate and hold the Bush administration responsible for their crimes. For that meeting, Paul presented the following prepared remarks:

A number of characteristic features of the Soviet system clearly marked it as a nation which flagrantly violated the most basic principles of the rule of law. For example, under the Soviet system, individuals could be detained and mistreated indefinitely on the mere say so of the nation’s chief executive. All that was needed was for the government to declare, without any evidence presented in a fair and open court proceeding, that someone was an ‘enemy of the people.’

Under the rule of law, by contrast, attaching a label to a person is insufficient grounds to deny said person access to the protection of the law.

Under the Bush administration, numerous individuals have been swept up, imprisoned indefinitely, tortured by the CIA directly or rendered to third countries for detention and torture, on the sole basis that the executive branch defined these persons as ‘unlawful enemy combatants’ or ‘terrorists.’ It is no secret that many of these persons later turned out to be innocent of any and all criminal action or even intent.


The ostrich syndrome and its consequences

In the preface to his book, George Scott discusses how people who live in a nation that tortures tend to close their eyes to what their country does in their name:

There are people who persistently refuse to discuss or to witness anything that is unpalatable. They contend that it is much better to look upon the bright, the pleasant… The world is full of people who persistently subscribe to this doctrine… In this way they encourage the evils that are all too prevalent in modern society. Smugly and complacently, they shut their eyes to anything that is disturbing, repellent, or offensive, affecting to believe it does not exist… This attitude of the public is one of the greatest enemies to reform.

I would add to this important insight that, not only is the wish to avoid unpleasantness at work in this phenomenon. Just as important in today’s United States is the great aversity to view our country in unfavorable light, compounded by a great fear of being branded as “unpatriotic” if we accuse our country of acting in a barbaric manner.

Jonathan Schell explains the evil consequences to our civilization of acquiescing to torture. After discussing the association between torture and barbaric civilizations, he says:

Those symptoms (of barbarism) are brought on, of course, not just by the torture but by society’s reaction to it. The people face their choice when reports of (torture) are made public, as is happening (today in our country). If the people choose denial, the pathology of torture tends to reproduce itself in the society at large. The result is a kind of cognitive dislocation, which can be more or less severe. Fundamental human capacities begin to atrophy… The words that name the deed fog over, or are driven from the language. Refusal to face the fact of torture has cost us the very word “torture,” now widely referred to… as “enhanced interrogation techniques” or “harsh methods.”


The consequences of President Obama’s refusal to hold torturers accountable

Schell addresses a common excuse that our government uses to ignore torture that happened in the past, and he explains why it is so important to hold torturers accountable:

Consider the frequently made charge that indictment of those who performed or ordered torture would amount to "criminalizing policy decisions." In this accusation, those who really criminalized policy – that is, those who ordered crimes as a matter of policy – are given immunity by charging those who would prosecute the crimes with "criminalizing."… (But) the application of law no more "criminalizes" any deed than a prosecutor criminalizes bank robbery when he indicts a bank robber….

It is in this context that our new president's determination to get things right in the future by ignoring what went wrong in the past is troubling… The danger is most obvious in the legal system, where it is precisely the past that determines the future to be taken. Someone brought into court for dealing drugs is not invited to say to the judge, "Let's not look at the past; let's concentrate on getting the future right." But more than the legal system is at stake. For whatever else civilization may be, it is surely intercourse between past, present and future. Without the past to guide it, judgment about the future is reduced to clueless conjecture…

The organization IndictBushNow suggests why President Obama reversed his earlier decision to release torture photos:

The world now knows why President Obama reversed his earlier decision to release the 2,000 photos of prisoners barbarically tortured, abused, and humiliated under the direction of the Bush/Cheney gang.

Some of the photos of the prisoners show U.S. personnel torturing, sexual assaulting and raping male and female detainees, including children. The existence of these photos was confirmed by former Major General Antonio Taguba.

Most recently, the CIA has postponed the release of a report that could shed a great deal of light on torture crimes committed during the Bush administration, and expose Dick Cheney’s claims that torture saved lives for the lies that they are. Our CIA appears to be fighting to permanently prevent release of that report.

Jonathan Schell ends his article on torture by telling us what we need to do to get our nation back on track:

Better to look the torture in the face and having looked, to remember, and having remembered, to respond, and having responded, to call those responsible to account so that we never do this again.

The American people need to let President Obama know what we think about this.
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-27-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is one of the best
and most important posts I have ever read on this site. K&R
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thank you very much
I think that if people were more informed as to what's going on, and if some more of the pictures were available, there would be a lot more outrage about this than there currently is.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. We can't turn away from our responsibility to prosecute for this.
The longer the issue remains unaddressed, the deeper the rot & corruption will dig in and the harder it will be to clean.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Damn right
I noted in the OP how difficult it is to get people concnerned about this stuff, since most people are ready to put on rose-colored glasses when viewing these things, or ignore them altogether.

When our own government simply avoids the issue and refuses to prosecute war criminals, that means that there will be almost no chance that the American people will take it seriously enough. Refusing to prosecute a crime is akin to condoning it. Refusal to release evidence that makes the crime all the more obvious is even worse.
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. Core Values
a phrase I often hear President Obama use. Respecting the Rule of Law, another phrase used.

Torturing someone to the point of death in some cases, is hardly one of our "Core Values" and certainly not lawful, no matter what kind of spin one puts on it.

Vice President Biden when being chosen for Obama's running mate said, The Reckoning is Now! There has been No Reckoning and it appears there will be none. There will be no accounting of the actions this country took, there will be no reconciling with the world for the breach of International Law. We are a nation who by action, cares little for Human Rights.

The reckoning isn't now but unless there is accountability by prosecuting Bush and those in his administration responsible for TORTURE, the Reckoning will be at our doorstep and this countries future will not forgive our past.


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Yes -- The American people have been fooled into believing that torture was done to protect us
Too many of them are willing to accept that lie, and in so doing, sit passively by and not demand accountability for those who did it. This is a great blot on our international reputation, and it will hurt us.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. K&R
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. I pray the delay is getting the DOJ ducks in a row
We have to have good people confirmed to go after these crimes.

-Hoot
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. March 2009 letter to Eric Holder....
only skimmed through your post for now, this may be included already, if not...

Thanks for the important post.


http://www.aclu.org/safefree/torture/39060prs20090318.html

March 17, 2009

The Honorable Eric Holder
Department of Justice
Robert F. Kennedy Building
Tenth Street and Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20530

Re: First Official Request of the New Administration for Appointment of an Independent Prosecutor for the Investigation and Prosecution of Any Violations of Federal Criminal Laws Related to the Interrogation of Detainees

Dear Attorney General Holder:



...There is Only a Little More than a Year Left in the Statute of Limitations Period for Certain Alleged Crimes of Torture:

The federal statutes of limitation are a potential problem in investigating and prosecuting certain torture crimes. Although the general federal statute of limitation for most federal crimes is five years, there is no limitations period when death resulted from the crime, and there is an eight-year period for violations of the federal Anti-Torture Act. The ICRC report and the Justice Department Inspector General report on the FBI's role in interrogations both provide substantial details on the torture and abuse of Abu Zubaydah in the spring and summer of 2002, prior to the issuance of the August 1, 2002 OLC opinions. The eight-year statute of limitation period for Anti-Torture Act charges related to crimes allegedly committed in spring 2002 will expire in spring 2010. As a result, a prosecutor has only a little more than a year from today to bring charges for some important and well-documented alleged torture or abuse incidents..."


Sincerely,

Anthony D. Romero




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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. It seems a shame that there would be an 8 year statute of limitations for war crimes
But if they committed the crime by authorizing torture in 2002, and if it continued to be authorized under their authorization in 2008, wouldn't the clock on the statute of limitations begin running in 2008, rather than in 2002?

Well, even so, I would think that there should be trials, even if the statute of limitations prevented them from going to prison, if for no other reason than to make the point to the public that these things are taken seriously.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Prosecute if for no other reason than to make the point to the world
that the US will no longer just continue to choose to bamboozle its people while continuing its overt covert war crimes, but is fully committed to change and to allying itself with international human rights laws and conventions on torture.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. I agree there should be an investigation and prosecutions where
appropriate...in this particular case and this particular law time appears to be running out. If they delay long enough maybe the cases that are easiest to prove will no longer be within the time constraints.

:(

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. thank you
so much!
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
10. Don't let this die. k & r
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. You do good work, Time for change.
Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread.:thumbsup:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. Thank you Uncle Joe
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Papa Boule Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. GREAT post
Edited on Sun Jun-28-09 12:52 PM by Papa Boule
One minor quibble. I wish you had left the qualifier "almost" out of the heading "Torture almost ALWAYS does far more harm than good."

I firmly believe that torture always does far more harm than good -- not only to the victim, but to the reputation of the nation or group in whose name it's being done, and to soul of the nation or religious group or movement that condones or permits it or looks the other way while its leaders authorize it.

And it has the effect of unsettling and intimidating the "homeland" as well, as citizens or members of the group cannot help but fear that one day that horrible torment might be turned on them as well. The only thing protecting them, for now, is remaining in the good graces of those with the power to authorize or order it.

That said, K & R'd!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Thank you
I almost always try to avoid absolutest statements.

But let me clarify something. I believe that torture should ALWAYS be illegal, and those who commit it should always be held accountable. My statement that torture almost ALWAYS does more harm than good was not meant to refer to torture as an instrument of state policy. I feel confident in that situation omitting the word "almost". I was referring there to individual acts. Has an individual act of torture EVER done more good than harm? I'm not willing to say. It's nearly impossible to prove a negative, and I simply have no comment on that particular question. Rather, what I am asking people to do is to look at the reality of the situation, what I think is fairly obvious to anyone with a good familiarity with history -- that torture almost ALWAYS does more harm than good.

I believe that the underlying basis for saying that torture is immoral is empathy. I believe that without empathy there could be no morality. How can there be morality for a person who has abolutely no capacity to feel for other people? Suppose that I came across a man who had my daughter locked away in a torture chamber, and getting information out of him was the only way to get her out. If I tried everything else and it didn't work, would I torture him to get the information? I don't know if I'm capable of torturing someone. But would my love for my daughter cause me to do it? But the chances of my ever being in such a situation are infitessimally low. So why even think about it? But it is thoughts like that that lead me away from making absolutist statements.

Some people will say, or think, that by thereby leaving the door open a crack, that I might be encouraging people to commit torture under certain circumstances. Obviously, that is not something I want to do, having written approximately 30 anti-torture posts on DU. But like I said, I don't want to make absolutist statements that I can't prove. And furthermore, I believe that by being careful about my wording in that regard, I maintain more credibility among a very large segment of Americans who simply will not believe an absolutist statement like that. By doing so, I believe that those people will be more willing to take seriously what I say, and act accordingly.

You may be right. But since I can't prove it, I'd rather not make an absolutist statement on the subject.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R. I agree, but you obviously didn't get The Memo.
Our President has decided that America will simply look the other way....or "look forward".

It NEVER happened.
A couple of foreign, A-Rab, whiners had water poured on them...
Thats all.

See how easy and how "American" that is?
Now, Get with the program.

We WILL protect our elite War Criminals and Torturers.
Some values transcend mere Political Parties.
Just like Iran Contra, The Democrats WILL close ranks with their brothers, The Republicans, to protect the system.

NO Rich White elite American War Criminals will suffer the slightest discomfort.
It has already been decreed, and our President has agreed.
In fact, they will live their lives out in Royal Luxury few men have ever known, with big pensions and FREE top of the line HealthCare, and YOU will be forced to pay for it.

Goooooooo...Democrats!

Goooooooo...Republicans!

LOL.
:cry:
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. That's the kind of defeatism we can't afford.
Edited on Mon Jun-29-09 04:17 PM by Independent_Liberal
Despite how hopeless it may look, despite what the elite wants us to believe, we just can't throw up our hands and hand the elite a victory. Once they become afraid that their political careers are at stake, that's when they can most easily be forced to perform the duties as demanded by the people.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. Last weak on the History channel…
They ran their show on the sadistic and tortuous regime of Sadom Husane; they showed people being thrown off of roofs but they edited out the splatter, they showed heads and limbs being chopped of but froze the frame before the sword struck its victims, the showed the dead bodies of Kurdish people gassed by Sadom’s forces, and they showed the mass graves and bones of many murdered victims. They talked about what horrible murderous monsters Sadom and his two sons where and how they would kill their political opposition. But all this was about how justified and what a great thing the U.S. did by removing Sadom Husane from power. And I agree the world is a better place without him.

But what if the History Channel were to do a show on the dark side of U.S. intervention and torture throughout the world since the end of World War II, and what if it did a show about how it is U.S. policy to overthrow democratically elected governments and how we support tyrannical regimes that are no less evil than Sadom as long as they do the bidding of American Empire.

I can understand why our government would not want the American people to know the horrifying truth; god forbid, it might set them free…

K&R Dr. Dale


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. That's a great point Larry
I'd love to see it happen, but I'm afraid that we're a long way from it right now. To think that we're educating school children without letting them know about the dark side of our nation's history is very sad to me. The first step in addressing a problem is to acknowledge its presence. As long as we fail to do that, the American people will remain mired in ignorance.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. K & R. n/t
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kicked
and recommended.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. Kicked. nt
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks for the post !
Moving forward and sweeping things aside means BIG PRETENDING.

And every time we're stomping our grandiose feet about some human rights violation in another country-- how can we do that with a straight face if our own torturers were allowed to skate by on a "just following orders" or "just writing policies" excuse?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. It takes a lot of hypocrisy to do that
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Our country has had a lot of practice, but this torture stuff on the Bush Cheeeneeey scale
is really quite a stretch !
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. Semms like it should be an automatic . .. sure thing . . . something everyone wants . .!!!
But then . . . those in power don't seem to --????

Why might that be?

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Unfortunately, not all Americans want it
Too many believe Cheney and Bush when they tell us that torture.... I mean enhanced interrogations are necessary, and they are fine with it. Some of these people are psychopaths. But more are simply ignorant or in denial. They don't know the reality of what is done in their name, and they simply accept what they are told. These are the people who need a wake up call.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. If they heard as much about torture and Bushco as they do about Hollywood marriages . . .
Edited on Mon Jun-29-09 12:20 PM by defendandprotect
they would be less accepting of these insanities --

i.e., right wing propaganda continues to work.

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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-28-09 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thank you for putting this all together here.
But if the political leaders in the US knew from history and science that using torture would not work, but would just radicalize and infuriate large numbers of people around the world - to create real enemies where there were probably few before, and knew that they could spin it on an emotionally charged public so that there would be no prosecutions, then where does that leave the US in international law? A bully rogue nation?

They had to have known that this was the path to emergency powers and the twisting or the end of the rule of law. Not following international established law in regards to torture is not where we want to be heading. It is criminal in itself.
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
30. Make it happen
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
32. Monday morning kick for the cube rats. .n/t
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
34. Thanks Time for Change!
Say it like it is.
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-29-09 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
37. Yes.
:patriot:
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