South African rapist: 'Forgive me'

[ccharles000]

Dumisani Rebombo and his friend raped a young girl in their village in South Africa when they were teenagers.

Years later, he returned to the same village to find the woman he attacked and begged for her forgiveness.

Mr Rebombo, 49, is one of thousands of men in South Africa who admit to having carried out a sexual assault - one in four, according to a recent survey.

He told BBC News why he feels so many young men in his homeland engage in the ill-treatment of women.

When I was 15 years old, I took part in a gang rape.

Before the incident, I was constantly jeered for not being man enough.

At the time I was not ready to have a girlfriend when all my friends did.

I did not tend the cattle or sheep, nor did I attend the initiation school .

This fuelled my daily jeers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8115219.stm

[armyowalgreens]

1. Get ready. The DU circus of hate and damnation is about to storm this place...

[cali]

2. I know you're not suggesting that rape is minor

but you should understand that your words could be seen that way. Yes, I hate rape and what it does to the victim. Like incest, it's a soul destroying, life destroying act.

[armyowalgreens]

3. What I am suggesting is that a hateful thirst for vengeance flies in the face of true justice...

If a man has truly changed, why can't he seek redemption?

The acts were horrifyingly brutal. But the man who committed those acts could be a very different man than the one seeking forgiveness today.

[cali]

4. good for him for understanding that what he did is

horrifyingly wrong, but this is not just about one man. It's about rape as an epidemic. My thoughts and sympathies lie with the victims. It's that simple.

[armyowalgreens]

6. Excellent. But that's not necessarily the purpose of the BBC story...

It spotlights one mans search for redemption. And some on DU would be quick to say that he deserves no chance for redemption.

[Indenturedebtor]

5. Some things cannot be forgiven. F-him. I hope his soul rots with remorse

"Oh it was peer pressure"... rot in hell buddy.

[armyowalgreens]

7. Example 1

[cali]

8. I'd cut the self-righteous, superior crap here.

As a woman who was raped, I don't take lightly to it. Tell you what, you suffer rape and then you can preach.

[armyowalgreens]

10. So you invoke silence upon me because I have not been raped?

Sorry, I don't play that game. I'll speak my mind.

Let me first say that I in no way take the crime of rape lightly. I place it among the most heinous crimes a person can commit. My point however is that no crime is heinous enough to deserve eternal damnation.

I've heard people say the exact same thing you've said about murder, abuse, abandonment and myriad of other crimes. But when it comes down to it, you cannot deny the fact that a person can change.

And who are YOU to say that they don't deserve redemption?

[proteus_lives]

15. Redemption is fine but it's not punishment.

If a person truly changes and feels remorse for raping someone then they should happily submit to a prison term. I believe in redemption but that does not absolve the person of the consequences of their actions.

The fellow in OP for example, I hope he's sincere in his change but he still deserves 25-30 years in prison. His feelings do not change what he did.

[armyowalgreens]

18. So is the point of prison punishment or rehabilitation? vengeance or justice?

Do we convict people of crimes because we seek vengeance or justice?

If we seek justice, what good comes from punishing an already changed man?

[Indenturedebtor]

23. How about he spends his entire life working 3 jobs

and gives all of the money to that poor woman that he traumatised for life.

Either way he deserves nothing. Please save your compassion for the victims.

[armyowalgreens]

25. Forgive me if I have compassion for both.

[Indenturedebtor]

27. I forgive you. It's not like you traumatised someone for life or killed them

or anything like that ;)

[armyowalgreens]

28. You don't actually know who I am or what I've done.

[Indenturedebtor]

36. Ah you are young aren't you?

That's a very very young thing to say.

In any case when some truly horrible things happen to people you love or yourself, perhaps you will understand why the perpetrators deserve nothing but suffering and death.

If we as a society decide not to give them suffering and death, then that is our perogative as a society.

It is all well and good to quote buddha/scripture/whatever, but some people are the foul garbage of the universe. Deserve... pfah.

[armyowalgreens]

39. You don't know what has happened to the ones I love.

I'd appreciate if you didn't assume that I haven't felt the pain of tragedy in my life.

Because you are dead wrong.

[proteus_lives]

32. You're very young and sheltered.

"If we seek justice, what good comes from punishing an already changed man?"

It doesn't matter if HE changed. That doesn't change his actions or the suffering he caused. I repeat the main point I made earlier, if he's truly redeemed, he'd be the one demanding punishment. True redemption cannot come until that person pays for what he did.

The fellow in the OP for example. I don't care if his guilt led him to cure AIDS. He can hang his Nobel Prize on his cell wall. Nothing will ever absolve him of what he did. Nothing can replace what he took from that woman.

"Do we convict people of crimes because we seek vengeance or justice?"

Not applicable in this case. Punishing a rapist is justice. Whither it's the day after his crime or 50 years later.


Why are you turning this criminal into Jean Valjean?

[armyowalgreens]

37. What is your definition of justice?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5802959


What is justice?
"I think this is an extremely relevant topic because we are always talking about injustices in the world. But what is Justice?


According to Webster, justice can be

“ 1 a: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments”


I think that it is extremely important to focus on the phrase “the maintenance...of what is just” because it really defines the purpose of seeking out justice for wrongs. The purpose of seeking justice is to maintain what we consider to be a proper ethical system. In other words, we don't want people running around committing crimes.

Of course you could look even further into that by saying that the reason why we seek to keep a “proper ethical system” is so that we may preserve humanity and happiness (or simply the lack of suffering). So, in the end, the reason why we seek justice is so we can prevent humans from suffering. We do not seek justice because of a higher power. Justice should function purely on logical grounds.

There also needs to be a clear line established between justice and vengeance. Vengeance is the infliction of punishment or suffering because of some wrong. An act of vengeance is not taken with regard to how that act betters society. It is not taken with regard to anyone else's welfare. It is a SELFISH ACT.

An example of vengeance would be the father of a rape victim hunting down the rapist and killing him or her because of his anger. It is an action without regard for the rapists welfare or the welfare of society. It an irrational action based on anger.

That means that vengeance can never truly be just because justice is acting with more than just regard for ones self. Justice is a selfless action. It takes into account the welfare of everyone.



That is why the desire to lock up a 14 year old and 19 year old for the rest of their lives because of their crimes is not justice. It is vengeance.

That is why capital punishment is not justice. It is vengeance.


True justice would mean that we try as best we can to change the way that 14 and 19 year old thinks. True justice would be trying to change the way a murderer thinks.

It doesn't just take into account the welfare of the perpetrators. It also means that we care about the welfare of everyone in society. Who knows what the 14 and 19 year old are capable of? If they can turn their lives around, they can contribute to the betterment of man. The same goes for a murderer or any other criminal.

I am not saying that all criminals can change their lives. What I am saying is that we must give them the opportunity to do so. To do otherwise would be unjust.


If we truly want to function as a just society, we need to rethink the way we treat everyone."

[MilesColtrane]

66. "So is the point of prison punishment or rehabilitation?"

(Here in the U.S.) It mainly seems to be about removing the offender from society to protect other potential victims.

But, it's also about punishment. Rehab comes in a distant third.

[cali]

20. oh for the love of reason. I did not invoke silence on you. I suggested

that you cut the self-righteous, superior attitude about this. Nor did I say deny redemption to anyone. When you resort as YOU just did to outright false claims, you are deserving of little but contempt for doing so. When you grow up, you might realize that.

[armyowalgreens]

22. I'm being self-righteous because I think I'm right? Does that mean you are self-righteous?

Simply because one thinks they are right does not mean they are self-righteous.


What "superior" attitude are you speaking of? The attitude that I think I am right? Talk about a double standard.

[cali]

24. way to avoid standing up and admitting that you made

false accusations.

I suggest you take a look at your first comment in this thread where YOU are busy condemning others for comments not even made. duh.

[armyowalgreens]

26. ahhh I see. That is what you have been complaining about this entire time?

Okay, I'll admit that I was wrong. This thread was not flooded with hateful/vengeful DUers.

[cali]

30. No, you don't see. But then again, you're nineteen. I don't expect you to.

I have compassion for you and your adolescent angst.

[armyowalgreens]

34. My perspective is different, but not necessarily a bad one.

And it most definitely does not make my points any less valid. Assuming they are valid points.

[Forkboy]

47. All those extra years you have on him haven't helped you.

[cali]

95. that's merely your opinion. and I feel much the same way about you, forkboy

I don't see that you have much in the way of wisdom either. And as I said it's all opinion, dear. and you know what they say about opinions. we all have them. what makes you think yours is worth anything to me?

[Forkboy]

121. The difference is I don't start a thread on every fart of a thought that passes through my head.

I don't read one or two people say something and then turn around and start a thread that tries to extrapolate that to all of DU. I'm not stuck on myself and I don't think my opinions are worth batting DU over the head with.

You do all of that, dear.

You see, I get it that we all have opinions and that mine aren't worth more than anyone else's. You, not so much.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Indenturedebtor]

9. Forgiveness isn't owed anyone. Not having to be raped is owed everyone

Your case study in the OP is example 1 of douchebags who deserve nothing but pain and humililation for their lack of humanity.

Yeah that's right - violent criminals are sub-human. Fuck that guy.

[armyowalgreens]

11. Vengeance is anything but justice. So you admit that you care little about justice?

[Indenturedebtor]

13. I didn't say anything about justice. Justice is for people

It is necessary to apply the rule of law to all speaking apes in order to avoid the tyranny of preferential justice... but I view rapists and cold blooded killers as little more than slime-mould.

I hope he develops full body open blisters and falls into a salt mine.

[armyowalgreens]

14. Wy are rapists and murderers automatically outside the realm of humanity?

[Indenturedebtor]

17. Because they're monsters. You can argue all day that they look and smell like humans

But they just aren't. Sorry.

Go hug a prison-rapist and tell me you forgive him in the morning. Or how about you ask a murder victim to forgive their assassin?

Oh that's right... can't do that. The murderer gets forgiveness from the rest of us, but the victim will be dead forever. Awesome.

[armyowalgreens]

21. So are you saying that a holocaust victims forgiveness of SS guards isn't real forgiveness?

If the woman really did forgive the man in that story, is that not true forgiveness?

And does a person need forgiveness from his or her victims in order to seek redemption?

What is your definition of "forgiveness"?


I'm not a fan of automatically equating one particular crime with eternal damnation. I also don't like the idea that committing a particular crime automatically turns one into a "sub-human".

[cali]

29. Where are your examples of Holocaust victims forgiving SS guar

I don't believe in eternal damnation and I agree that committing a particular crime doesn't denote automatically that the perpetrater is "sub-human"- in fact, human crimes are all too human. We wish to separate ourselves from certain heinous acts so we catagorize those who commit them as "sub-human". However, there is nothing that dictates that I should forgive those who commit heinous crimes either.

[ccharles000]

31. ....

Eva Kor and her twin sister both miraculously survived Auschwitz and the infamous SS doctor Josef Mengele. But despite almost being murdered, Eva forgave the Nazis. The documentary of her life has now been shown for the first time in Germany.

A quick look at the medical charts was enough. “You have just two weeks to live,” the doctor said. That was it; he then left the sick bay -- without giving his patient, the 10-year-old Eva, any medication. Why should he when he wanted the young Romanian girl to die. The doctor, Josef Mengele, had himself injected her with a lethal cocktail of bacteria.

It was the spring of 1944 when Eva Kor, along with her twin sister Miriam and her mother, arrived in the concentration camp Auschwitz-Birkenau. When the family climbed down from the train, an agitated SS guard ran up to them yelling “Twins! Twins!” A few moments later, Eva and Miriam were torn away from their mother. They never saw her again.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,389491,00.html

[armyowalgreens]

33. Well I watched a documentary in my ethics class about Eva Kor...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,389491,00.html


I never said that one has to forgive anyone else of anything. However, there is nothing in particular that mandates forgiveness as necessary in order to gain redemption.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. I'm offering someone else's mind on this

Those talking about forgiveness and Eva Kor would most likely get much fodder for thought out of a play called 'Black Angel' by Michael Kristopher. It is about forgiveness and Nazi war crimes and all of that. You would like the play.
This is a subject matter so powerful that at one of the first performances of that play, I saw huge fights, bordering on fisticuffs, in public, between old survivors. Oldest public brawlers I have ever seen. Screaming at each other, how can you forgive or how can you not forgive. The emotion inside and outside of that theater that night makes the discussion here seem so protected and sanitized.
To me, the basic misunderstanding on this thread has to do with confusing forgiveness with pardon. When I forgive a wrong done to me, that forgiveness happens within. It is for myself that I forgive. Yes. The other does not even need to know if I have or have not forgiven them, that is beside the point. They have to forgive themselves, I can not do that for them. My forgiveness is not their pardon, it is my release, not theirs. I could forgive, and still wish to see punishment, for the two things are not mutually exclusive at all. Not in the slightest.
If I forgive my attacker, that's for me. I do not need to pardon the action, nor reject the notion of punishment for me to forgive. What you are talking about is not forgiveness, but pardon. If I go and tell my attacker they are pardoned, that is a gift to the attacker. One I might wish to give or not, depending. Forgiving them has nothing to do with telling them they are forgiven, nothing at all.
But go look for that play. You will enjoy it.

[armyowalgreens]

68. hmm sounds interesting. Thanks for the info.

:D

[Marr]

111. Of course there is.

What is redemption if not forgiveness from one's victims? It's not a label or a certificate you complete. It's not something guaranteed by serving some prison sentence, and it's not something you can buy with money.

A victim has the power to deny their abuser redemption, in my opinion. Of course, the word itself is very vague and open to interpretation. Perhaps you think a bully or a rapist or a murderer is perfectly capable of pronouncing himself redeemed and moving on whenever he feels like it.

[armyowalgreens]

112. False. Redemption can come from simply changing ones life for the better.

You are essentially buying freedom from your debts. What he has to do is earn his redemption. That may or may not include forgiveness from his victim.

[Marr]

115. Ha- and who decides when redemption has been earnede? Th abuser?

Absurd.

[armyowalgreens]

116. That is something that would make a good philosophical debate...

I do not think that any one person can decide "how much is enough". But I know that someone can be redeemed. So redemption can, in some way, be quantified.

[LadyHawkAZ]

40. This is why:

"She started crying. She told me how she often cringes when her husband touches her.

She told me that her life was never the same emotionally following these incidents.

Worse still, she was not ready to tell her husband of what had happened."

You think "Sorry" is going to fix all that? Think again.

When you voluntarily take someone's humanity away from them, you forfeit your right to it as well, as far as I'm concerned. His victim's mouth may be talking forgiveness, but her mind, in her own words, has other ideas about that. Her body hasn't forgiven and her mind hasn't forgiven. It probably won't ever happen.

You can paint that whatever shade of vengeance or justice you want. It boils down to the same thing- He stole the humanity from her. It can't be replaced or repaired, and their has to be some kind of official condemnation from the law to balance the damage his actions have done. If the law fails to enforce that balance, then it's the same as saying the act of rape is OK. If he's truly all that interested in teaching the youth that this is wrong, he needs to start with showing them where it is you go when you do something like this: into a little gray cell with bars, for a long long time.

[armyowalgreens]

41. I will not speak on what that woman lost...

Like I said before, that act was horrifyingly brutal.

So you want to teach people to not commit crimes out of fear? I want to teach people to not commit crimes because they follow a certain ethical code. I want people to help others out of their love for humanity, not out of a feeling of necessity.


Sorry, fear mongering people into conformity should be reserved for religion. The death penalty has not lowered crime rates in states that carry it out. I don't believe 3-strike rules have lowered crime rates either. People often commit these horrible crimes without thinking about the consequences or what others have been punished with.

[LadyHawkAZ]

42. Absolutely

You're dam right I want them to be afraid of going to jail if they commit rape and they're caught, and what's more I want them to GO THERE if they commit rape and they're caught. And stay there for a good long time. My faith in human nature and it's ability to stay out of trouble because of an ethical code is nil, and backed up by thousands of years of history. Teaching an ethical code- great idea. Now what do you do when someone decides they don't want to/don't have to follow it?

Make them say they're very sorry and forgive? Is that your ideal? No, thank you. That's for children who break a toy, not for a rapist.

And another question: Has forgiveness without punishment lowered the crime rate anywhere at any time in history? Because that seems to be what you're driving at, and frankly it's a system I'd prefer to take a pass on.

[armyowalgreens]

43. "Has forgiveness without punishment lowered the crime rate anywhere...?"

I don't believe that was my point at all. But thank you for failing to understand what I meant.

Often incarceration/community service is needed to teach someone why their actions are wrong. But the punishment should not be for punishments sake. It should be used as rehabilitation.

I would agree with a mandatory period of rehabilitation. And then the prisoner should be released. That's assuming they aren't mentally ill. In that case, they may never get better. And in that case, the only real solution is permanent incarceration for societies sake. And that's assuming we don't obtain a method of curing severe mental illness in the future.

But that is assuming that our prison system actually attempts to rehabilitate. Which, for the most part, it doesn't.

As of right now, our "system" only serves to further criminal activity. Our prison systems breed criminals. Capitalism breeds criminals.

We are a society that holds selfishness to such a high regard. And then we wonder why crime is rampant.

[LadyHawkAZ]

53. I agree with rehabilitation- to a point

Not for all crimes. Theft, sure. Drug crimes, sure. Most juvenile crimes, definitely.

Rape, no. Child molestation, no. First-degree murder, no. All crimes are not equal. I stand by the statement I made earlier- when you rob someone of their humanity, you've given up your claim to humanity. It's not possible to un-rape or un-kill the victim. What gets taken from them doesn't come back. They don't get a do-over. I will never agree with giving the person who stole that from them a chance that they, who are the innocent party, don't get. That does not make good moral, ethical or common sense. It's a form of punishment, sure- for the victim (or their survivors), who did nothing to earn it.

"Forgiveness without punishment"... that's exactly what you seem to be advocating. Punish rapists by essentially sending them to school and counseling, then dropping them back into society? How is that a deterrent? How is it punitive, for that matter?

Yes, I'm selfish that way. I've been raped and don't want to do it again. I've had a friend murdered and don't want to do that again, either. I've been molested, and while it's a bit late for that to happen again, it shouldn't happen to anyone, any child, ever. I have earned the right to not be sympathetic to rapists and killers; I've gotten firsthand views of the damage they do. Some things aren't forgivable or forgettable, or repairable, no matter how sorry the offender may be down the road.

[armyowalgreens]

69. No one "earns" the right to be unsympathetic.

That goes for all criminals and victims.

I could understand how someone would allow their emotional pain to control their actions. But that doesn't make it okay.

[LadyHawkAZ]

77. Oh yes we do

What you are doing is telling me, and any other woman here who's been assaulted, is that the guy who pinned me down with an arm across my throat and raped me -all on his own, prison didn't "breed" that into him because he was never in one- is a more valuable human being than his victim, and deserves more sympathy and more chances. No. That's B.S., and sick B.S. at that. It's not good ethics and it's not justice in any sense of the word. And while I'm well aware that you're composing your denial even as you read this, that is EXACTLY what you are saying. There is no healthy code of ethics that requires me to have warm fuzzy feelings of sympathy after that, or think he doesn't deserve to sit in a locked room till he drops dead of old age. He is not more deserving than me or even equal to me. He CHOSE to be less.

Here's another fun story: when I worked at a daycare years ago, we had a seven year old girl who'd been raped (word carefully chosen: not molested, raped) the previous year by the son of the former sitter. And was then put through seven pelvic exams for evidence- let me rephrase in case you didn't catch that: had doctors sticking yet more things inside her on seven different occasions. I won't even go into what that child was like when we got her, I think you can probably imagine. Sympathy, rehabilitation and release? Screw that.

And then there was the girl who went to the same private school I did (several grades ahead of me), and was molested by the superintendent, a nice churchgoing well-respected man. When she told people, she wasn't believed. Killed herself a year later. This made front page headlines in my area when it came out years after the fact, after a few more kids came forward.

I've got lots more stories like those. Still want to lecture me about justice, or dismiss my opinion because I'm a victim and not impartial? Then tell me: "Justice" is the application of due legal reward. How do you think forgiving and releasing the men that did that to them fits that description? Explain how "rehabilitating" those men and turning them loose again serves those girls. What reward do you think is really due the victims? The rapists? And on what do you base your opinion?

Some things don't deserve second chances. There are even forms of killing that are justified and justifiable, but sexual assault has NO excuse. There is no "rape in self defense". No one "accidentally" drops their penis into a child's panties. And the people who do these things were not all or even mostly bred in prison, as your earlier post implied. They did it all on their own, as a conscious choice. "Sorry" later on down the road isn't worth jack.

[Odin2005]

85. +1. My close friend, who is physically disabled, was raped 3 months ago and there is no...

...way that a monster who is willing to rape a defenseless, wheelchair-bound woman can be "redeemed" or "rehabilitated".

[armyowalgreens]

91. I am trying not to come across as insensitive...

"What you are doing is telling me, and any other woman here who's been assaulted, is that the guy who pinned me down with an arm across my throat and raped me -all on his own, prison didn't "breed" that into him because he was never in one- is a more valuable human being than his victim, and deserves more sympathy and more chances."


But when you spew fucking bullshit like that, it makes it really hard for me to do so. I said no such thing. I expect to have a reasonable discussion with people without them making up things.

CLEARLY your judgement is clouded due to your experiences. There is a reason why they don't have victims decide the punishment for criminals. I am in no way saying that rape is good. I am in no way downplaying the significance of such a horrible crime.

What I am saying is that if a person changes, they deserve a chance at redemption. I don't give a shit what they did. And what you say doesn't change that fact. I don't care if you print me an entire novel of your experiences.

YOUR insensitivity towards another human beings life is quite telling...

[LadyHawkAZ]

97. I might say the same

"CLEARLY your judgement is clouded due to your experiences."
"What I am saying is that if a person changes, they deserve a chance at redemption. I don't give a shit what they did. And what you say doesn't change that fact. I don't care if you print me an entire novel of your experiences."

Hmm. That's sensitivity. I must have been out sick in English that day.

I didn't make up a thing, I just pointed out the problems. When you claimed that a criminal, a rapist, deserves redemption, rehabilitation and release into society- a second chance that the victims don't get- you placed their value above that of their victim. I seriously doubt you did it intentionally, but that is what you did.

I told you my story, you dismissed it as irrelevant. I told you two more, you dismissed them as irrelevant. That's a pretty selective version of sensitivity. I also asked you something important and am interested to see that you didn't address it. You brought up the issue of justice vs. vengeance earlier, I gave you the definition of justice and asked you to apply it. You got good and angry, but you didn't answer.

They can get redemption from religion, that's what it's there for- the opiate of the masses and very handy for violent criminals. Not all of them deserve it from society, because some crimes simply place them beyond it. Period. If someone has an excess of sympathy for humanity floating around, I recommend they volunteer at a rape crisis center or homeless shelter or food bank. Spend it on something worth it.

And I made no bones about my lack of sympathy toward the man who raped me, or for that matter any other that did the same to anyone else. At least I don't think I did, but just in case I'll clarify. I have none at all, zip, zero, nil- exactly as HE chose when HE chose to rape me. If that last remark was intended to be shaming, it was an epic fail. I have lots of sympathy for another human beings life. I told you stories about two of them. Your sympathy for them and for me came back as "I don't give a shit what they did.". Newsflash: I am what they did. Those two girls I was telling you about? They are what they did. The other victims posting in this thread? They are what they did.

Where's the justice there?

[armyowalgreens]

98. I'm sorry if I said anything that hurt you

[LadyHawkAZ]

99. self-delete

[LadyHawkAZ]

100. S'ok. Don't worry about it. Be well. n/t

[Marr]

117. I would say her judgement is colored by experience, not clouded by it.

Your choice of words suggests that the other poster's opinion is somehow less valid than your own. I have to tell you, in all honesty, your post is one of the more insensitive things I've read on this board. It's an odd thing I've noticed-- very often, people who argue so vigorously for sensitivity towards abusers show not an ounce of it towards the abused.

Not to put too fine a point on, but I think you have it upside-down. If we're talking about redemption and forgiveness, I'm inclined to give more weight to the opinion of someone who has actually been victimized.

[armyowalgreens]

118. I already apologized on the offensive nature of my post...

I was very drunk last night and was having an emotional breakdown. I got on here and posted a few responses in a drunken depression.

[Marr]

119. I see.

I didn't notice the time stamp, to be honest. I thought it was something posted moments ago.

[Odin2005]

84. Some criminals cannot be redeemed and rehabillitated.

Rapists, child molesters, serial killers, and sociopaths cannot be "fixed", they are better off dead so they can harm no more people.

[armyowalgreens]

93. That is a load of shit...

Being a rapist does not automatically mean being beyond help. It does not automatically mean one is mentally ill.

That is why people like the guy in the OP have been able to turn their lives around. They aren't mentally ill. They aren't beyond help. They have changed the way they live.

And that is why I get SO fucking angry when people try to demonize those who try to turn their life around. Simply because they committed act A does not mean they are incapable of changing their lives.


Am I saying that every rapist is capable of rehabilitation? ABSOLUTELY NOT. But what I am saying is that some are. And when YOU say that a criminal is automatically incapable of rehabilitation simply because of the crime they committed, it pisses me the fuck off. Because it is illogical bullshit.


It is absolute bull fucking shit.

[Odin2005]

103. I don't think they are mentally ill, I think they are irredeemably EVIL

If they want "redemption" they should beg for it from whatever non-existent bearded superman in the sky they believe in, they don't deserve it in this life. Redemption if for petty criminals and for people who did horrible things because of ideological or religious brainwashing. the rapist actively chose to ruin another person's life, showing a sick, evil mind that cannot be redeemed.

As I said elsewhere in the thread, my friend's rapist should be damn glad he is in prison, If it was up to me he would be hanging on the end of a rope. or being crushed under my friend's electric wheelchair.

[armyowalgreens]

114. "Evil" is nothing more than a word that people like you and GW Bush use

to conjure up fantasies. It's just a word. It has no bearing on reality. There is no such thing as good or evil forces.

[Odin2005]

83. You must have had a sheltered childhood to have such naive views.

I am not much older than you (23), but I grew up in a poor rural community and have seen the darker side of humanity far more often than I would have liked. No such things in my immediate family, fortunately, but I was still surrounded by it nonetheless.

[armyowalgreens]

92. Please, spare me the BS...

I didn't live a sheltered life. I've seen things that have absolutely changed the way I think about criminals.

But I also have family members who have done horrible things in their lives and have redeemed themselves.

That's not to say that I haven't seen people fail at redemption. My father is the biggest fucking loser I know. But I don't use that as an excuse to believe that people aren't capable of redeeming themselves.

The fact that you are so quick to guarantee me that certain types of criminals are beyond redemption leads me to believe that you don't know what he hell you are talking about.

Labeling me as a sheltered person doesn't change that fact.

[Odin2005]

104. I am so quick to say they are beyond redemption because of my own experiences.

In my experience these people can pray for forgiveness all they want, and then go right back doing the same vile things. They are evil at their core. Like the scorpion that promises to not sting you and does so anyway because it "is his nature".

[armyowalgreens]

113. I really wish people would stop labeling people as "evil"...

It very much takes away from the validity of your argument. If you are not religious, you cannot believe that someone is "evil".

Good and evil are words reserved for assholes like GW Bush. They are used to bring about emotions. Not logic.

[mamaleah]

109. Exactly. Too many people think forgiveness requests MUST be honored

No they do not.

You can apologize all you want for raping someone and stealing part of them.

You are not entitled to forgiveness so you can feel better.

[Downtown Hound]

12. +1

:thumbsup:

[ccharles000]

16. I agree

[Deep13]

78. "If a man has truly changed..."

It's irrelevant. What he did has not changed. Going begging forgiveness from a victim who probably would be very happy never to see or hear from him again is self serving and imposes additional burdens on the victim. If he feels guilty, he should live with it. If he can't, he should kill himself. Either way, leave the victim alone. She's suffered enough.

[armyowalgreens]

94. So what you are saying is...once a criminal, always a criminal.

Sorry, that is absolutely untrue. I have life experiences that tear your claim to shreds.

The crimes committed cannot be taken back. But the person that committed those crimes can change their life. I've seen it happen.

When I look my stepfather in the face, I don't think of him as the cocaine dealer he once was. I think of him as a good man that helps his family. He deserves the best life possible for himself. He has paid dearly for his crimes. And he continues to pay for them, both emotionally and legally, to this day.

If you don't fucking get that, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

[Deep13]

101. No, you are changing the subject.

I get it, I just don't think it matters. This is not about his status as a criminal. It is about what he did. And in point of fact, that cannot be undone. We are not talking about some indiscretion. We are talking about a horrible, inhuman crime.

My point is that this is not about him at all. I don't care what he does as long as he leaves the victim alone. Again, it is not her responsibility to facilitate his rehabilitation.

I know you believe in forgiveness and redemption. Apparently this man does too. He has no right to insist the victim live by his religious rules. (Oh yes they are. I've not met a major felon yet who was not a devout something or other.)

[Deja Q]

46. He might be. Not the best of parallels, but...

Some people treat major surgery as minor issues too.

Some people are just clueless or naive.

[Deja Q]

45. TAKE A FRIGGING GUESS AS TO WHY.

Most of us here do not condone or support rapists, nor should we.

Do you?

[armyowalgreens]

50. Are you accusing me of supporting rape?

[armyowalgreens]

52. I'll be on later. I'm going to bed.

I'll check your reply when I get up.

[Forkboy]

48. Rape does that.

[Odin2005]

82. Rapists deseve as much hate and damnation possible.

No amount of pleading for forgiveness is going to get rid of my disabled friend's PTSD, chronic panic attacks and fear of being out in public alone. If it was up to me they would all be given a brutally painful execution.

[armyowalgreens]

96. "If it was up to me they would all be given a brutally painful execution."

Thanks Cheney. That's real ethical.

[Odin2005]

106. Brutally raping a 20yo physically disabled woman makes you forfeit your right to be treated decently

My friend's rapist deserves such suffering.

[proteus_lives]

19. Redemption is all well and good but he still deserves to be punished.

If he is truthful in his redemption, he submit to whatever punishment the state and the woman demanded of him. Until that day I'm doubtful and his "pleas."

[Curtland1015]

35. But the woman raped didn't demand punishment, she forgave him.

I can sit here and think what he did is terrible (and it is) but if she herself fogives him, what right do I have to say that she should demand punishment?

[proteus_lives]

38. The laws that the state passes aren't just for one person.

It's nice that she forgave him but it doesn't change what he did. If the state fails to punish a person such as this than they have failed everyone.

[Kurska]

55. It is not about what is right for the victim to some people.

It is only about some weird concept of owed money, time or flesh.

[LadyHawkAZ]

90. Battered women do that too

They "forgive" the abuser out of fear and/or denial. That's why the state takes over abuse cases these days instead of allowing the victim to decide if she wants to press charges.

The woman in the article said she didn't want her husband to know about the attacks and that probably had a lot more to do with her unwillingness to prosecute that his apology.

[Deja Q]

44. Rape is one of the most anti-society things one can do. Utterly disrepsectful and it's scarring.

It's up to the girl to apologize. It depends on how life has affected her since the incident.

Of course, my definition of society is to help people and have people help each other. If another society thinks it's okay to "be a man" by age 15 or force intercourse, well that's their society and I'm not going to interfere. Don't expect to be welcomed in my society, however. Rape is vicious, humiliating, and just vile.

[Kurska]

54. Man commits a terrible crime and devotes the rest of his life to trying to make up for it.

And half of this forum is still calling for his blood 30 or so years after the fact, what a beautiful display of human forgiveness.
:sarcasm:

[noamnety]

56. Maybe half the forum understands that it's still about HIM

It was about HIM wanting forgiveness because it was a need HE had.
It was about HIM going back to confront the woman on HIS time table, still acting as the person CONTROLLING the situation, still being the person in power.

Is it that hard to imagine that a rape victim may not want to see her rapist ever again?
Is it that hard to figure out why it should be HER choice to meet him?

Is it that hard to realize that seeing him could be a trigger for her, and that maybe that might trump any emotional needs he might have?

OR is it okay for him to make it all about himself, as if he is the victim with emotional needs, and it's her obligation now to act as caretaker for him and take care of those needs?

[Kurska]

57. So feeling guilt is now apparently a selfish emotion?

He wasn't guilty because of anything that was personally about him, He felt guilty because of the ways he might have affected her. The man fucked up in a terrible way and spent the rest of his life trying to make up for it, but nothing will satisfy some besides blood. If it is good enough for the victim it should be good enough for you, this isn't your axe to grind.

[noamnety]

60. He can feel anything about it that he likes, for all I care.

The problem is when he believes it's his right to impose his emotional needs on the victim without regard for whether it's going to cause her additional pain.

His internal guilt is not her responsibility to fix for him - despite the cultural notion that women are SUPPOSED to be emotional caretakers - for everyone, including their rapists.

[Kurska]

62. Asking for forgiveness is "Imposing his emotional needs".

When you do something wrong you try to apologize and if you're lucky you might just be forgiven. You're implying that such a social construct is somehow based on selfishness?

[noamnety]

64. Deciding to Insert yourself back into your rape victim's life

is a bit different than apologizing for forgetting to pick up milk on the way home.

[Deep13]

102. This isn't "something wrong." He didn't steal a cookie.

He committed an act of depraved inhumanity that left his victim a wreck. If he wants to make amends, then turn himself in and waive statute of limitations.

[mamaleah]

110. I think so in some cases.

Some people seek forgiveness because they think by hearing someone say "I forgive you", their load is lighter. It makes them feel less emotionally tied to what they have done.

No rapist deserves to ever feel "better" about what they have done.

[seabeyond]

63. her forgiving is NOT about him. her forgiving is all about her.

when a person forgives, it frees them. prior to forgiving, in the heart... regardless of whether a person asks for the forgiveness or not, or is even aware, ... to forgive is to allow her to come to a peace within herself, where she can let it go, where she is no longer struggling and battling within herself. when she forgives, she sets herself free. if she cannot forgive, then it damages and continues to hurt her. that is the power of forgiving.

has nothing to do with her.

ultimately, in him asking to be forgiven, he gives her the power to with a yes or no to forgive himself. her forgiving him gains him nothing. he then has to be able to forgive himself. and maybe, if she forgives him, it allows him a step closer to forgiving himself. but he cannot be free until he forgives himself.

forgiving is a selfish act and i am all for that selfish act. it is to free the person who is victim, to no longer being a victim. has nothing to do with the perpetrator

[noamnety]

65. She's no longer the victim?

Has he freed her from being his rape victim?

Ohhhh, *snap* problem solved then. And from this we can deduce that women who are feeling rape trauma are ultimately responsible for their own trauma, because hey, they CHOSE not to forgive, and thus to remain victims. It's the flip side of blaming the victim, I guess.

"If you'd just forgive your rapist ... think how much more empowered you'd be."

Reeks of bullshit to me, sorry.

[seabeyond]

67. whatever/however she handles it, is just right for her, and hers to do. and concept of forgiveness

is not exclusively for rape, but all things. so the old true and tired comments of blaming the victim that we use for females being raped doesnt apply to the concept of forgiveness. this is getting beyond this particular henious act and looking at the whole, in healing self.

this is why i dont talk about this on this board. cause there is a desire for battle, and not a desire for thinking, feeling, understanding and discussing, ultimately healing. and being such a close issue to my heart, i take it much too seriously for flip, non thinking discourse.

[musette_sf]

73. + 1

:thumbsup:

[Deep13]

79. EXACTLY!!! nt

[seabeyond]

59. we insist on painting the rapist as someone evil, demented, sick.... they aren't (not all)

this man and the woman he raped handled it the best way they knew how to handle and i am all for it. three decades later i see no reason to punish the man for the act. sounds like he punished himself plenty and sounds like thru reflection he was able to understand why he committed the act. and thru courage to apologize to the woman, i imagine it did something powerful for her.

if this woman had come out and not accepted apology and demanded punishment, i would be on her side too. and if the man had to be punished, then i would suggest that it was price to pay for doing right by apologizing, regardless of fact he is punished.

i think the bigger issue in this op is the reasons for rape. the kind of men/boys that rape. how our society creates rapists. and how, because a male rapes, it is not that the person is all of evil, or sick, but a guy, the guy next door that has been conditioned to such, and conditions set in such a way, that a normal male can justify a behavior to gain what he wants.

i think this is a much bigger issue that we need to talk about, that we wont.

it is much easier to address the issue as the rapist being abnormal and vilify him and what i think, never have an honest discussion about the issue, regardless of how painful it may be.

ergo

we miss the opportunity to learn and to heal.

[Kurska]

61. Amazing post, You hit the nail right on the head. n/t

[armyowalgreens]

70. Excellent post.

No matter how people try to spin it, rapists and murderers are not "monsters". They are humans just like us. And we need to understand why they have committed such horrible acts.

[seabeyond]

71. no, they are not just like me. maybe you, but not me. lol. i am not gonna own it

and i am not suggesting that there is anything acceptable in the behavior. but i am saying they are not "monsters" we would like to paint them to be. and murder i see a bit different than rape. they make the choices they do, with the justifications they do. it is the reasons for it i would rather look at. and i assure you, if we were to talk about rape in this country, the males would not be on board to discuss it honestly, anymore than the women that are raped or aware of rape are willing to budge with their position and one of the reasons is cause we cannot get an honest discussion. there was a study done not too long ago with 60% males saying they would rape if they thought they could get away with it. pretty big problem.

[musette_sf]

72. + 1

[BlooInBloo]

74. Taking into account his age, and shitty environment, I still say: fuck you, rapist.

[LAGC]

75. The rapist should become a Christian.

That way, he can commit any crime he wants and be forgiven for it, according to the Bible.

[datasuspect]

80. Christ died for our sins

he paid our debt in his blood.

G-d already forgives us. We needn't do anything to receive grace-it is a gift freely given.

[LAGC]

86. Same difference.

You're basically saying that you can commit any crime because you are already "forgiven" for it ahead of time. Bullshit.

[TK421]

76. I forgive you, Dumisami.....

I'm sure that your victims don't, and let's see how your life turns out now

Just kidding, I hope the girl you raped gets to beat you to death with a fucking baseball bat and stabs you in your throat with the broken end of it

[Odin2005]

81. I don't forgive monsters. My friend's rapist should be glad he's in jail because if I ever get my...

...hands on him he won't be able to attack another disabled woman again because he'll be 6 feet under.

[Flaneur]

105. Ah, tough talkin' keyboard commandos.

[Odin2005]

108. Go fuck yourself!

:grr:

[LadyHawkAZ]

120. Don't be too sure about that...

This keyboard commando is armed. There isn't going to be a "next time" here.

[ismnotwasm]

87. Good

The next step is to try and educate other men on how to stop rape.

Like this group

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/index.htm

[seabeyond]

88. right on.... n/t

[Kievan Rus]

89. He should get a dry sponge electrocution like in the Green Mile

[Odin2005]

107. +1

[Forkboy]

122. Yeah, up with torture!!!

Awesome!!! And this is even better, because we're just doing it for fun. We don't even need to get any info!!!