20 month old baby dies after drinking drain cleaner, 14 yr old mom & 19 yr old dad were making meth

[Liberal_in_LA]

Note the ages of all involved. egads! Mom would have been impregnated about age 12.

---------------------------------------------

http://www.kiss989fm.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=283307&article=5539851

Baby Dies After Drinking Drain Cleaner

Teen parents charged with murder
Monday, June 1, 2009

MONTICELLO, Ky. -- A southern Kentucky toddler is dead after drinking liquid drain cleaner that his parents had been using to make methamphetamine. Police were notified that a 20-month-old boy had been brought to the Wayne County Hospital early Sunday.

An investigation led to the discovery of a meth lab at the child's home. The boy's 14-year-old mother and 19-year-old father, Bryan Daniels, were both charged with murder and manufacturing meth. Four other people who did not live at the home were also charged with drug manufacturing.

Daniels may face additional charges given the age and living situation with the baby's mother.

[armyowalgreens]

1. Murder? Isn't that negligent homicide?

[Greyhound]

3. Should be, but we live in Amerika now.

Everything is a felony and we are far more interested in revenge than justice. Besides, we have a huge private prison industry to support, you can't just go around helping people. Where's the profit in that?

[armyowalgreens]

4. I'll never understand why people want to throw away the life of teens

just so they can seek their vengeance. It's pathetic.

[Mythsaje]

6. It's interesting... some of the same people will state unequivocally

that a 14 y.o. is NOT capable of sexual consent, but should go down as an adult for a crime. I'm not sure how that tracks, because it doesn't make ANY sense to me. One or the other--either they're an adult with all the rights and responsibilities thereof, or they're NOT. They can't be both and the heinousness of any particular crime has nothing to do with it.

[armyowalgreens]

8. I was an ignorant dumbass when I was 14.

I don't know how they can consider a 14 year old an adult. They are emotionally immature.

[Mythsaje]

9. I'm pretty sure I was a dumbass at 14 too...

My wife, apparently, was not. A PAIN in the ass, perhaps, but not a dumbass. She graduated and was emancipated that year. So go figure. She was also sleeping with guys a lot older than her, so :shrug: heck if I know.

[armyowalgreens]

15. The brain is literally still developing at 14.

Even if someone looks and sounds fully mature, they are not.

I am not willing to give up on any 14 year old.

[Odin2005]

108. I was stupid when I was 14, too. At least I was screwing people my own age and not making meth.

So I had a lot more sense then these two.

[Mythsaje]

109. At that age I didn't even KNOW about meth...

Smoked plenty of pot, though.

[Control-Z]

131. I wouldn't say you had a lot more sense

(than these two). I would say your circumstances were much different. That may even translate into; "you were lucky". I don't know enough about you or anyone involved in this case to say.

Some people are born into circumstance that you and I can't even fathom. I try to remember that always.

[lbrtbell]

29. I made mistakes at 14, but this is insane

I knew better than to get involved with drugs, or to let children near poisonous chemicals. Hell, I knew better than to get pregnant, even!

If this girl had made ONE of these mistakes, I'd go with the "she's young, she's dumb" sentiment. But to do all three of these things...this girl's a waste of oxygen, and so's her statutory-raping boyfriend.

If these two end up in prison, they really have nobody but themselves to blame. It's just a shame that the life of an innocent child was lost, because of their horrible selfishness and self-destructive tendencies. :(

[armyowalgreens]

31. Such compassion...

I'm so happy people are willing to make such drastic character judgments when they really just DON'T know what the fuck they are talking about.

You'd be surprised how easy it is for an otherwise "good" person to go down the wrong path. Drug addiction has a nasty way of doing that to people.

Obviously the two teens carry the blame here. But that does not mean they should be locked up and abandoned. That isn't justice. I don't even know what that is, but I know it isn't right.

[Ex Lurker]

136. I have no problem making value judgements

about people who cook meth with children in the home. None at all. Sorry, my compassion is for the infant, not these two wastes of space. Should they be locked up forever? Maybe not, but they should do significant time, especially the 19 year old.

[Jeep789]

38. You never fell victim to drugs so anyone who did deserves

prison? Wow, can you project beyond your own experience? Doesn't seem so.

[Christa]

80. No, I do not agree

It is not their fault. Look at the big picture.

Society is at fault here. Kids should not be allowed to have kids, birth control should be freely available to young teens if the want to have sex. And sex they will have. Statistics prove 25% of kids have had sex by the age of 15 - whether the parents want to know or believe it.

We have an archaic attitude that teens don't have sex. We need to change our minds as we are out of touch with reality.

[Control-Z]

140. And, I dare to say,

you probably had more opportunity than these two. Making meth is usually about either drug addiction, or making money, or both. Imagine being 14, since you can remember it so well, and now try to imagine being piss poor with an older boyfriend and an almost 2 yo baby.

It means she got started on her current life path at 12 or younger. Could you really have done better? Of course, this is without knowing what her parents were like. There is always a reason when a 12 yo has a baby. Can you imagine what a train wreck her parents might have been?

The reasons why something like this happens are really too numerous to imagine.

[Jeep789]

28. There is no logic to justify this hypocrisy nt

[proteus_lives]

11. Yeah, these two should be "saved"

A couple of meth-heads who let their child die a filthy death. Couple of future Nobel Prize winners.

[armyowalgreens]

13. Yes because they will ALWAYS be meth heads.

Don't be an ass. They are both less than 20. They have their entire lives ahead of them. Let's not abandon them just yet shall we?

I have family members who have turned their lives around who were older than these kids.

[proteus_lives]

16. They don't deserve the chance.

A child is dead, the "parents" have forfeited the right to any better life.

[armyowalgreens]

22. Bullshit. What ethics do you follow?

What a hunk of shit. And you call yourself a liberal?

No one ever forfeits their right to a better life.

[proteus_lives]

126. Yeah, I am a liberal.

But I have never labored under the delusion that all criminals are victims of Society and just need a hug. It's passing the buck and it's bullshit.

If you let your child die while you're making fucking meth. Yeah, you don't get a second chance.

[Mythsaje]

135. If you come down harder than my wife does

and you do, you're not a liberal. Even she understands the basic chemical and conceptual makeup of the human brain. A child of 14 isn't capable of truly grasping cause and effect except in the simplest ways and even those are limited. And no matter HOW you define it, what happened there was not a case of Murder. Negligent Homicide at the most.

The problem with people like you calling yourselves a "liberal" and yet having no insight into the conditions and circumstances of this person's life--this CHILD'S life--and suggesting that NO punishment would be too harsh is that you make a mockery out of the term. I'm fairly hardcore when it comes to anyone who deliberately harms an innocent. But there's a lot of discretion about what "deliberately" means in this context. These children--and, yes, to me a nineteen year old is still a child--are not in the same category as the guy who chewed half his kid's face off, or the father who shook his baby to death. And even the first of these is something that needs to be examined more closely. The second--well, fuck him. Anyone who takes their anger out on a child or an animal is fucked in the head.

Those who do not accept that people bear responsibility for their own actions are wrong, but so are those who say that society also bears no responsibility. As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[proteus_lives]

164. I agree with the middle of the road approach

But I try to look at these types of situations case-by-case. If they had just be arrested for dealing and making meth, yeah I be for rehab, light jail and counseling.

But someone is dead. Do you think they gave a shit about that kid? Do you think they gave a shit about anything but meth and money? Everyone is tsk-tsking me but washing the feet of these two animals. Yes, animals. I've seen neglected children before and I don't think there is much difference between indifference and abuse.

Maybe that is what is setting me off, they didn't give a shit about their own child. I've seen teenage parents who work themselves to the bone to provide for their children. I've seen 14-years in bad situations suck it up and take responsibility for their own lives. that's why, "A child of 14 isn't capable of truly grasping cause and effect except in the simplest ways and even those are limited." does not wash for me.

They just didn't care. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

[Mythsaje]

209. How do you know what they felt? You don't.

And neither do I. I've seen fourteen year olds manage it pretty well. And others who couldn't manage to get themselves ready for school in the morning without direction. But I suppose having a kid at 12 doesn't help much in that regard either. You might be able to TEACH a teenager to act as though their brain has the wiring to grasp cause and effect, but biology says they really don't.

[armyowalgreens]

150. No, no you aren't. What you are is delusional.

Here's the thing. There are people like you on one extreme end of the spectrum that think that criminals are evil people.

And what happens is that when people attempt to discuss this topic with you, the conversation is polarized because of your ignorance. So we end up looking like the exact opposite of you (ie all criminals are victims). And that is complete bullshit because I don't believe that for a second.

What I do believe is that people make mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes can be many and very disgusting. But what I know is that if someone is willing to change their ways, they deserve a chance to do so.

I know this is hard for you to understand since you obviously have no understanding of empathy, but people do change. They mature. They are enlightened. If there is any justice in the world, it will allow something positive to come of tragic situations. It will allow for someone to redeem themselves, even if they have done horrible things.

[proteus_lives]

170. Wow, how hostile.

Interesting that you reserve more rancor for me rather these on the dock for the death of a child.

"What I do believe is that people make mistakes. Sometimes the mistakes can be many and very disgusting. But what I know is that if someone is willing to change their ways, they deserve a chance to do so."

I agree people do make mistakes and sometimes you shouldn't come down them so hard. But in this case, a person is dead and someone has to answer for that. You want them redeemed? fine, I have no problem with that. After they are punished for what they did. That means hard time. We all know that the 14-year old is going to get off scot-free for this (Yes, juvie until she's 18 is scot-free after what she did) Hopefully the man will do at least 10 years for the drug offenses.

Then they will both go with their lives. Maybe they'll become upstanding members of society. With families/jobs and civic pride, then they'll forget that a baby had to die so they could get this chance. The chance by your standards they so richly deserve.

"I know this is hard for you to understand since you obviously have no understanding of empathy, but people do change. They mature. They are enlightened. If there is any justice in the world, it will allow something positive to come of tragic situations. It will allow for someone to redeem themselves, even if they have done horrible things."

Well, is the weather any different up there on your high horse?
Anyway, I have plenty of empathy but I'm not going to get into a pissing contests with you. Sufficient to say, I believe in helping people and I also believe in second chance. I think that some people are born into or thrust into shitty situations. They deserve a lot of empathy. But my empathy ends the moment they harm an innocent person. No matter matter how fucked up you are, how much pain your in or what your situation is-you have no right or excuse to harm an innocent person.

[armyowalgreens]

173. I see I'm softening your outer shell.

I think you are of the same mentality I am. You simply refuse to admit it.

I never said that the two don't deserve punishment. It is most likely the only thing that will force them to really look at what they have done with their life. But I don't want this to turn into a "lock them up in a cold dark cell in the basement" type argument. That isn't justice. That's vengeance. There is a difference.

They should be in some form of detention facility. One that actually gives a shit about turning the prisoners around. Counseling, rehab, that can all be done in prison if someone actually cares.


I have a family member who went to prison on drug charges. He use to beat the shit out of people. But after a lot of work, he turned his life around. Harming innocent people is always a result of crime. You saying otherwise isn't going to change that fact. Some people live with the mentality that society is full of bad people. They don't attack people because they are good. They do so because they just don't care anymore. That doesn't disqualify someone for a second chance.

[proteus_lives]

197. I don't like to issue a blanket response for all situations.

Is it merely vengeance? I don't know. I believe that prison can be a positive experience for certain types. It certainly helped several members of family when nothing else could.

" have a family member who went to prison on drug charges. He use to beat the shit out of people. But after a lot of work, he turned his life around. Harming innocent people is always a result of crime."

I had a sister go to prison over drugs. I grew up around drugs/drunkenness, because of that I don't have much empathy for the crimes of junkies/drug dealers. It got sucked out me when I was young. Is that bias? Probably but it's the way I feel. My sister beat people, sold drugs, sold her self but she never killed anyone or got anyone killed. If she had, would I react the same way as I did to the these two? I actually went and had a smoke to think it over. I am still conflicted, would I hide her or lie for her? No, I 'd turn her in. (I've done it before) because she would deserve to be in prison. At the same time I have to realize I would be waiting for her when and if she got out. Does that make me a hypocrite or am I reaffirming the concept of "judge people/events/ideas case-by-case" which I try to live by?

This is mostly musing about the 14-year old girl. I remain firm on a long, hard sentence for the 19-year old.

This thread has been emotional but I remind myself that I joined DU to discuss issues like this and gather other people's POV's.

[Diclotican]

187. proteus_lives

proteus_lives

Just have to jump in here. I really do not believe that someone who have killed an another living human being Will forget the fact, that THEY are responsible for that.. Most young adults are not capable on their own to take care of a baby, and in this case many things must have been going horrible wrong. If it was true that the baby was 20 months old, or almost 2 years old, then the mothers should be under some public help. Many things have going the wrong way here, and it is tragic to se how absent social services are here..In most country's in the world, when underage girls are pregnant, the social services would be over the case as a hawk, and keep a tight aye on everything for maybe rest of her life.. Even in cases where everything is 100% okay, the Social Services would keep an aye, you are not exactly "grown up" when you are 14.. I am not sure I can handle a little toddler - and I am 33 year old next month.. And in this case the 14 year old is just an kid, and should at least, even if she was to be locked up for a long time given a fighting chance to redeem herself.. I would guess that even in US prison system it exist many programs, to keep an aye on this type of problems. And even that this is tragic, and the 14 year old kid really deserve time behind the walls, I am not sure if we have to just lock her up, and trow the key away yet...

She have to understand what was happening, and if she doesn't then it is maybe time to put here in a prison system - so she are not in danger of herself, or to others.. But if he truly understand what happened, and what she had being doing, then she might turn her life around in the end... I am not just ready to trow a 14 year old girl to the wolves yet.. And the US prison system is full of wolves, bot male and females.. Yes she deserve time we agree about that.. But in the time she is inside the prison system she should at least be given the Chance to make something about herself, and get the help he possible need, both with her addiction, but also witht the fact that she for the rest of her life, would know that her neglect killed her baby... And that alone would be an punishment either you and me want to have on our soul...

I know how I was, when I was 14 year old.. I was what you would say a "Problem child".. But I managed to survive the teens in a fashion.. Even that I got scrubbed and bumbed in the teens myself.. But then I had parents, who cared, and who did the best they could do, to keep my on the "right track".. I have much to thank them fore I am pretty sure about. And if the time came and I got children on my own (who I hope would be the fact some day) I hope I can teach them what I was been tough when I was young. After all, the "old turds" do had some truth to what they teatched...

Diclotican

[proteus_lives]

198. Thank you for you POV.

It's something to think about.

[Diclotican]

210. proteus_lives

proteus_lives

What is an POV?.. Sorry it might be my bad english, but have not heard that acronym before I am afraid;)

Diclotican

[proteus_lives]

212. It means Point of View.

No worries.

:hi:

[Odin2005]

110. Oh bull. The guy maybe is beyond hope, but give the girl a chance.

[proteus_lives]

127. Why?

Because she's 14? A girl? Fine, I'd give her chance, after at least 20 years in prison.

[Mythsaje]

133. Not much of a chance.

3 years in juvie, drug treatment, several years monitored probation.

THAT'S fair.

She's still a FUCKING child.

[proteus_lives]

172. I disagree.

If this was just about drugs, fine.

"3 years in juvie, drug treatment, several years monitored probation.": That's it for a dead baby?

So she should basically get away with murder?

[Dorian Gray]

44. He's an adult

so hopefully he will have his entire life ahead of him in prison.

The mother? I don't know how I feel about this, but the negligence is criminal. She should spend at least the next four years in Juvie, hopefully getting drug and emotional counseling.

[armyowalgreens]

46. I'm tired of this bullshit.

Simply because he is of legal age that means that he deserves to rot in prison for the rest of his life?

FUCK THAT BULLSHIT. Seriously, give me a fucking break.

I didn't realize the possibility of redemption ends when you turn 18.

I'm done with this shit. It's 4 AM, I'm tired and the F-bombs are coming out and this thread is literally making me sick to my stomach. You have successfully gotten me to rant about a fellow DUers bull. Nice job. :thumbsup:

[Jeep789]

48. ditto nt

[WeDidIt]

54. Yes, he should rot in prison for the rest of his life.

IT's not that the poissibility of redemption ended when he turned 18.

The possibility of redempotion ended when he got his 12 year old girlfriend pregnant, had her move into his meth lab house, and then ignored his own son so much that the son drank the fucking poison he was using to manufacture meth.

That's when all possibility for redemption ended.

[proteus_lives]

129. +1

[armyowalgreens]

147. Nope, you are wrong.

I think it would be best if you left this conversation up to people who actually know what it's like to go down that path.

NOTHING disqualifies someone for redemption. That doesn't mean that people are going to redeem themselves, that means that they should be given the opportunity.

[WeDidIt]

153. Bullshit,

Murder disqualifies somebody from redemption.

End of discussion.

[armyowalgreens]

162. Nope. Sorry it doesn't.

I'll keep saying that until you get it.

[WeDidIt]

204. Fuck that shit

Murderers gave up all claims to any rights.

[mitchum]

155. Aren't you some fucking 20 year old kid? Why should we listen to you?

Your "brain hasn't even fully developed yet", has it?

[armyowalgreens]

163. Apparently it's developed better than some in here...

I have experience with this stuff. Probably more than you or any other of the other pseudo liberals in here.

[Dorian Gray]

200. Wow...

Yes, he's an adult, should be tried as an adult, and he is responsible, through his negligence and criminal activity, for the death of a baby.

He can find redemption... in jail.

I don't wish death upon the man, but I do wish justice for the child.

[WeDidIt]

52. Correct. They will ALWAYS be meth heads

MEthamphetamine destroys synaptic connections in the brain.

These people ruined their lives forever before this incident ever happened.

[armyowalgreens]

145. Don't talk unless you know what you are talking about.

Alcohol, Weed, holding your breath, getting hit in the head. Those all destroy synapses.

Simply because they killed some brain cells does not mean they deserve to rot in prison for the rest of their lives.

I think I need to reiterate this. Anybody that thinks like you is not a liberal. They are a fraud.

[dionysus]

205. yes, their entire lives, after a well deserved prison sentence...

[cali]

19. 19 is legally an adult. The fourteen year old is another story.

sadly, the lives of these two were fairly well trashed before they were charged. Doesn't mean the girl should be charged as an adult, but the boy should be. I find it pathetic that certain people on this thread are more concerned with the teen parents than the child who died a horrible death. Pathetic that some doen't even see fit to give the toddler a passing mention.

[armyowalgreens]

25. It's horribly tragic that the child died.

But I'm not willing to let that cloud my understanding of this situation. And I don't want to use that as an excuse to simply forsake all parties involved.

[Jeep789]

26. I find it rather pathetic that people are deemed 'Adults' long

before science proves their brains think like one. Yes, the toddler's death is tragic but so is the parent's situation.

Not only that, but tragedies happen with toddlers all the time. There can be no greater loss than that of a child and parent's that have suffered such will always question why they didn't do something that might have prevented it.

I question what we gain from further punishing people for mistakes they might have made except for the possibility that we are trying to absolve ourselves for our complicity by further punishing them.

[cali]

33. Mistakes? Sorry, manufacturing meth is more than a mistake

and 19 is old enough to be charged as an adult. Yes, accidents happen. This one was created. Yes, the loss of a child is a terrible thing, but these parents are responsible for the loss of their child. The 14 year old, imo, should be tried as a juvenile. The 19 year old should be tried as an adult. This was NOT some little mistake. They were engaged in dangerous and felonious activity that resulted in the horrible death of a small child. And no, we're not all complicit.

[armyowalgreens]

34. Nope, making meth could still be just a mistake.

The magnitude of the mistake is what differs.

At some point, the two deserve the chance to examine this mistake and make up their minds whether or not they are willing to change their ways.

I'm not the type of person that likes to set these "lines" of injustice that when crossed, the perpetrators are fed to the wolves. That's not how the world should work.

I've seen to many people come back from dark places to believe in that bullshit. Sorry.

[Jeep789]

36. Exactly, no money, no job prospects, baby to feed ...

Self employment, selling meth might seem like a reasonable answer, especially to kids this age.

[cali]

57. We actually don't know the specifics here.

And whether manufacturing meth seemed like a reasonable answer or not, it's a felony. And it's a felony for excellent reasons. It's incredibly dangerous. Meth is a fucking terrible and life destroying drug. I'm not saying that either of these kids should simply be tossed in jail with the key being thrown away, but it's not just an innocent little mistake. Frankly, that's naive to the point of silliness.

[Jeep789]

65. Frankly, thinking a 14 year old or 19 year old is not naive is

naive to the point of silliness.

[cali]

68. well, as I never said that kids that age are not naive, you need to build a better strawman.

[Jeep789]

73. Awe, the strawman argument...

No way to combat that one. :sarcasm:

[Telly Savalas]

169. Keeping their toddler away from the fucking meth lab would be pretty reasonable too.

Even to kids that age.

[tabasco]

50. Reckless disregard for human life.

That's what makes this mistake different in the eyes of the law.

This mistake was far worse than simple bad judgment. It placed a baby in extreme danger of death.

[Jeep789]

35. Sorry, but scientists have proven that the "adult" brain

doesn't usually occur until at least 25. If you need some links just let me know an I will happily find them for you.

Just because the legal system decided upon on age does not make it a reality. And even after deciding upon the age of 18, they decided they weren't "adult" enough to engage in the "adult" stress self-doctoring of drinking or gambling. If they were really adults, why would they make that distinction?

And, why in the heck, would they make juvenile laws and then ignore the age and charge the person as an adult? What sense does that make?

[cali]

43. I'm quite aware of the science involved, dear.

life and the judicial system, however perfected they may be, will never be perfect. Yes, arbitrary lines are drawn. There's really no way around that. When should a person be charged as an adult? When the brain is 98% developed? 99%? And the science isn't perfected either. At the dawn of one's 25th birthday, the brain isn't magically fully developed.

As I said, 14 is clearly still a child, but 19? That's arguable. Should we raise the voting age to 25? How about the drinking age? Age of enlistment? These aren't easy things to decide. There is no perfect solution.

[Jeep789]

47. Imperfect judicial system = arbitrary innocent people being

imprisoned. I thought we were against that.

Yes. line are drawn but those lines are often crossed by the Prosecution as evident in all the juveniles being tried as adults these days.

As to your other questions, (in my opinion):

Voting age: No
Drinking: No
Enlistment: Yes

There are others you haven't even mentioned that I will:

Driving: Added restrictions
Parental guardianship: Yes

[cali]

55. Prosecutorial misconduct is another story and one deserving of great scrutiny

so is a system where so many non-violent drug offenders are imprisoned, but that's tangential to the age issue. Speaking of arbitrary, it seems fairly arbitrary to me that you endorse teenagers being able to drink and vote but not to enlist. And what's with greater restrictions on driving? What do you advocate? I have no idea what you mean by "parental guardianship: Yes". Do you think that those under the age of 25 should only be charged as juveniles? After all, their brains aren't fully developed. And why would you support legal alcohol consumption for those whose brains aren't fully developed? Or voting?

[mitchum]

92. Agreed; they shouldn't be allowed to vote, serve on juries,drive...

sign legal contracts, obtain credit cards, take out loans, etc...
Consistency is key.

[Gemini Cat]

178. Wow.

I actually agree with you.

[Jeep789]

27. It is a sickening and growing trend.. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. Amen

They're kids. There's hope. Brains aren't even fully developed until they are 25.

[NashVegas]

77. Wired All Wrong Already

That's the problem. Pregnant at 12: anyone with 1/2 a fully-developed brain can assume she - probably both - are from negligent and/or abusive homes.

Jail or no jail, it's going to take decades for that girl to straighten out. I hate to say it, it's horrible to say it, but as tragic as the baby's death is, his life would have been even more tragic had he continued to be raised in that environment. He should have been put up for adoption at birth.

[Deja Q]

152. Maybe it's to show other teens NOT TO DO STUPID SHIT.

If you have a better answer, please let us all know. Condign action is never nice, but kids aren't born with the basic niceties... that's why we educate them. :think:

If schools and parents cannot, and my tenure in school I'm grateful for what my parents could do, then something else has to fill the void.

[Control-Z]

167. I don't think a 14 yo has many

true and accurate perceptions of life and death, or imprisonment, for that matter. Unless they've experienced certain things at a very young age, it is about as real to them as a movie. Even adults who have been lucky enough to avoid a lot of the cruelties of life can have vague inaccurate perceptions.

[Jeep789]

20. Yep, and we don't want to even question why a 14 year old

is married and a parent or why such young people are making meth. After all, the answers might implicate us as a society and cost us via taxes.

Much better to just ignore the problems and allow children to die and their young parents to waste away in prison. Of course, that ignores the fact, that imprisoning people costs us even more.

[cali]

58. No. Questioning why things happen is a good thing. Examining why is

important. That doesn't mean that, even if these kids deprived backgrounds, they aren't, to some degree, responsible- particularly the 19 year old. Prison reform? Yes. Strengthening the social safety net? Emphatically yes, but even with that, there will be people who do awful things. Again, this isn't just some little mistake. A young child died a terrible death.

[Greyhound]

94. Yes they're responsible, but it's not murder. n/t

[NashVegas]

79. We Don't HAVE to Question Why a 14 YO Is a Mother Making Meth

We KNOW she grew up in a shitty home with shitty parents who didn't have the time or inclination to teach her things like self-respect, or how to work towards a future where she wouldn't wind up a child bride.

We KNOW that she was raised to indiscriminately fuck the first guy, other than daddy, who gave her the sort of attention she was RAISED to think she was worthy of.

We KNOW that she was raised to be no better than a dog. Just like her meth-making, 12 year-old fucking, husband.

You want to help her out? Take her into your home and show her what a healthy family looks like. Show her that her future doesn't have to be a repeat of what she grew up in. There's not a shrink or a pill in the entire world that can help her more than having a decent, loving, family around her.

[Fumesucker]

23. Not exactly correct..

Everything is a felony unless you are wealthy or a government official, at which point going as far as torturing someone to death does not even rate an investigation.

[Greyhound]

95. That is a given.

In some ways, feudalism is better than what we have now.

Disclaimer; That was a somewhat sarcastic observation. I do advocate feudalism.

[Mythsaje]

102. You must have meant do NOT advocate feudalism...

On the other hand, at least there was the notion of Nobless Oblige attached.

[Greyhound]

111. DAMN! And it's too late to edit. I MEANT I DO NOT ADVOCATE FEUDALISM!

I can see them sharpening their knives already.

Must remember to proof-read.

Must remember to proof-read.

Must remember to proof-read.
:blush:

[Mythsaje]

116. I figured it out...

Anyone who doesn't is obviously not as smart as I am.

:evilgrin:

[Greyhound]

123. True, but that is about 99% of the human race, many of whom are here.

:rofl:

[Mythsaje]

124. Oh, I don't know about THAT.

Let's just say I have a talent for reading between the lines.

:D

[Hippo_Tron]

191. Negligent homicide is still a felony

And if they have a half decent attorney I imagine the charges will be dropped to that. I certainly don't think they need to be locked up for life. I also don't think they are fit to have kids ever again.

[Greyhound]

213. No argument here. n/t

[cali]

18. no, not necessarily. If someone dies as a result of felony actvity

like a bank robbery or manufacturing meth, murder would be the likely resulting charge.

[Jeep789]

40. Explain the logic of that to me

Why the hell is someone who accidentally kills someone anymore guilty than someone who does the same thing but is fortunate enough not to kill someone? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

And simply using a felony as an example is even more illogical to me. Are all felonies the same? When did intent lose its importance?

[cali]

45. That's the law. And there's long been precedent for it.

Someone driving a getaway car, for instance, is as liable as the bank robber. The intent was to commit a crime in both cases. Should the bank robber inside the bank shoot and kill a teller, the getaway driver would almost certainly also be charged with murder. The rationale being that he/she engaged in a criminal activity that he she should have known could result in such an eventuality. Is it fair? I think so. I understand that there's room to disagree here. What you seem to be missing in this case, is that the law doesn't consider the death of person through the results of the commission of a crime, to be an accident. As for whether all felonies are considered the same under the law; no they aren't.

[Jeep789]

56. Sorry, the rationale is lost on me

Scenario: Eighteen year old, fresh out of high school meets new friend who offers him some drug to ease hs stress. They get a bit high and start commiserating about their lives and stresses, girlfriends,school, parents,lack of money, etc. While kicking back and talking, the "friend" hatches a plan to rob a bank and get some money. The friend asks the (18 year old) to drive him to the bank. Let's assume for this scenario that both teen even knows the purpose of the event and thinks of it as some form of exciting entertainment. Let's also suppose (because it is realistic) that both are still high). The "friend" then goes in and kills someone. The 18 year old is horrified when he finds out and although he freaks out at the moment and drives away with the "friend" he confesses to his parents shortly after-wards.

By your reasoning, the 18 year old with no adult life experience and a brain deemed by scientists to be proven not adult like is guilty of murder because his friend freaked out and shot someone? I beg to differ. The 18 year old is guilty of being stupid (completely normal at that age) and transporting someone to commit a robbery, while the "friend" is guilty of the robbery with the additional transgression of "accidentally" killing someone during the crime. The accidental used to carry weight and still should, with restitution (to the victim's family and society) being the additional penalties.

[cali]

60. Yes, the 18 year old who drove the car, bears some responsibility for the murder.

How much and whether he should be tried for murder, I honestly don't know. But could you please remember that someone in you hypothetical was fucking murdered? Does that mean anything at all to you? Doesn't seem that life is of the least fucking importance to you.

There are lots of question re you scenario: Did your innoc ent 18 year old know that his friend was carrying a weapon? Did the friend tell him he had no weapon? And just when in the history of jurisprudence in this country has your theory that the "accidental used to carry weight", existed? Clue: It has not- not in the scenario you painted.

Carrying a gun in the commission of a crime and using it is not a fucking accident.

And my greatest sympathies lie with the person truly innocent- the murder victim. NOt that that person is of any interest of importance to YOU. You've made that quite clear.

[Jeep789]

64. The fact remains that the 18 year old didn't know his friend

would kill somebody. In fact, neither contemplated the scenario. In my scenario, at least, the "friend" just freaked out.

How can you judge carrying a gun and using it is so much worse than carrying a gun and not using it without knowing the intent of either?

And yes, intent use to an important part of the law that has been lost recently due in a major part to attitudes like your own. Nowhere, have you addressed the conditions that might lead to such a scenario or societies role in them.

[cali]

71. huh? carrying a gun in the commission of a crime is bad- period.

intent is only part of the law. And you really need to provide evidence for your claim that "intent used to be an important part of the law that has been lost recently". As for your utterly absurd and petulatnt little claim that it's been lost because of "attitudes like your own", that's just a pathetic accussation, sweetie. I've stated that societal conditions do play a part. I've made it crystal clear that I believe that we need to massively improve the social safety net, that we need prison and legal reform, and that I'm oppossed to trying children as adults. You seem to think that killing people is fine and dandy as long as it's an "accident" or as long as the social safety network failed. I don't. I think that all criminal cases should be examined closely, that extunating circumstances should be considered- and that the victim should be thought of as well. You leave the victim out of the equation entirely. ^That's problematical to me.

[Jeep789]

75. Umm, you are the one leaving out the victims IMHO

I think all of them are victims of society. I think you can't handle the fact that you (and I) are included in my thinking.

In your reasoning, would parents that had no drug problem, hired a nanny to watch the kid but failed to ensure that the child-lock on their cupboards where the child drank the same substance be as guilty?

How do you think ruining these parents lives will help the victim? I suspect that your solution might actually result in future victims, if these parents are ever released from prison with no help. At the very least, your solution, results in the ruination of the parents lives. I wonder if the victim would even want that?

I know, if it were me (and I actually had my stomach pumped at the age of 2 because I managed to get a hold of a toxic substance), I wouldn't hold it against them.

[cali]

78. nope. I don't consider myself a victim. Don't care if you do.

And obviously I'm not the one leaving the victim out of the equation.

No, the parents that hired the nanny and didn't have adequate child locks on the sink wouldn't be as culpable. They would be negligent and clearly the nanny would be as well.


The parents lives are nigh on ruined already. The flip side to brains not being fully developed in adolesence is that a child's brain connections are formed early. Those neural pathways that are forged in early childhood are hard to change. What do you think early childhood ed is all about? The Jesuits used to say, "Give me a child until he is 7 and he's mine forever.". There's a good deal of truth in that.

That doesn't mean I think the parents should be thrown away. I'm way into rehabilitation- eyes wide open. Education, counseling, etc are vital.

You're completely putting words in my mouth and imposing on me a philosophy that's alien from the reality. Please refrain from doing so. I've been clear in this thread. You're do8ing this maliciously and it's disgusting.

Furthermore, ;you don't know, if you were a murder victim, or a victim of gross negligence resulting in death, how you'd react. It's assinine to pretend that you you do- and shows a complete lack of self-awareness.

[Jeep789]

192. Umm, I wasn't calling you the victim nt

[dysfunctional press]

82. "By your reasoning,..."

it's not his/her "reasoning", it's THE LAW.
and it's been that way in most states for quite awhile.

if somebody dies, even accidentally, in the course of/as a result of a felony, it's considered murder- mostly because the dead person(s) wouldn't be dead, if not for the illegal activities.

you may not agree with the rationale- but, it IS the law.

[Blue_Tires]

93. that scenario happend to a childhood friend (call him friend 'A')

Friend A is bored one Saturday night, so he calls friend B to drive around, hang out, burn some weed and maybe find a party (Friend A has the car and is doing the driving)...Of course, sometime during the course of the night, Friend B sees a neighborhood enemy/rival or whatever waiting to cross the street at a red light, so he rolls down the window and shoots him dead, just like that...Friend A got to serve about a year in prison after a lot of legal wrangling, while friend B got 20-something years....

I forgot to mention the ages...iirc, Friend B was 15, and Friend A was 17 or 18

[jmowreader]

130. I think it became murder...

because the baby died as the result of another crime being committed, the crime being the manufacture of a controlled substance.

This is the same theory that says if you're holding up a bank and someone dies of a heart attack from the stress of being held at gunpoint, you murdered them even though you didn't shoot them or anything like that.

[Dogtown]

203. "felony murder"

Many jurisdictions have laws that specify any death occurring as the result of a felony = 1st degree murder.

You rob a bank, a teller has a heart attack from the fear, you've committed murder. You tie up a victim or witness that chokes from the gag. Murder.

[Smith_3]

2. Don't they charge people with murder is the death was the result of another crime?

[Mythsaje]

5. What a tragedy...

How many lives destroyed here?

Hey, wait a minute. She was FOURTEEN with a 20 month old baby? Holy cow.

[smalll]

7. Indigo Children having Indigo Children.

Deep-souled, world-saving great leaps forward in human evolution? Or "The Worst Generation?"

I know what my money's on!

[Mythsaje]

10. Oh, shutup about that nonsense.

It gets boring the tenth or so time I hear it.

It's too bad their hope was so misplaced, but, seriously, this generation isn't any worse than any other except for having even more opportunities to screw the pooch than we did.

The people who believed that indigo crap just wanted to have a bit of faith that maybe the next generation could do more for the world than they ever could. Instead they've discovered that the world doesn't give a shit about them and God's an asshole.

edited for clarity

[lbrtbell]

30. There are horrible people in every generation

You can't give up on an entire generation. For every 14- and 19-year-old like these, there are many really good teens who care about themselves and other people.

Thank God.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

84. Don't think that is the case here

Meth is anything but world-saving.

[proteus_lives]

12. Well, my good opinion in the human race drops another notch.

Lock them up and destroy the key.

[armyowalgreens]

14. FAIL.

Nice try though.

I'm amazed by how compassionate some liberals are these days...

[proteus_lives]

17. Sorry,

I don't have much compassion for people who kill children. I'm weird that way.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

85. I wonder about the family life of the 14 year old

that she would have had a child at age 12 and now be mixed up in making meth and having no clue about caring for a child. I would hope that someone, a neighbor perhaps, sort of observe the family and report any abuse or neglect to DHS.

[LeftishBrit]

101. I don't either; but in this case they didn't kill the child (unless there's more to the story)

They neglected elementary precautions and their child died.

The fact that they were committing another crime does not turn this into murder. It's not as though drain cleaner was itself illegal. It's common sense that you don't leave it where a child could get at it, and that you supervise your kids properly when they're as young as this. So they are guilty of manslaughter, and deserve a prison sentence for that, but it is still not murder. I've heard of too many case of a parent actually beating a child to death or otherwise directly murdering them, and I don't think this is in the same category - unless it turns out that the parents gave the child the drain cleaner, or stood back and watched the child drink it without doing anything.

A tragic case anyway. Poor child.

[cali]

143. not under the law. the child died as a result of felony activilty. that makes it murder

in the eyes of the law. You may disagree but that is the law.

[LeftishBrit]

148. I think there must be a difference between British and American law here...

In British law, there is a specific category of 'unlawful act manslaughter' which covers such situations (the people would face other charges here too, including child neglect; but not murder).

But I accept that American law is different.

[tomreedtoon]

89. Actually, SUCCESS.

You seem to be fascinated by the idea of "forgiveness" and "rehabilitation." Those are cute values, but there are some crimes too big to be forgiven or forgotten.

These people were making crystal meth, something that enslaves people. That means they didn't care about the lives of other human beings. The fact that their contempt for humanity resulted in the death of their child is karma in action.

If they had had a spill of their poison, and the baby died of a crystal meth overdose, would that make the point clearer to you, armyowalgreens?

Mind you, since they didn't give a damn about the people whom they were poisoning, they may not have cared about their own child. In which case, they didn't get the punishment they have earned. But somehow I think they have. I'm not assuming complete sociopathology on their part.

You know, people die from making crystal meth every day. Especially in rural areas, especially among really stupid people who want to make money any way they can. It's a partial justification that the economy sucks, and like the drug dealer said in Robocop II, drug makers "are making 'Made in America' mean something again." But drugs always mean death. Death came to their family, if not to them.

[Berry Cool]

100. Just love how people talk so knowledgeably about other people and "karma"

"These people were making crystal meth, something that enslaves people. That means they didn't care about the lives of other human beings. The fact that their contempt for humanity resulted in the death of their child is karma in action."

Yeah. Their innocent child deserved a horrible death because they needed to suffer the consequences of their evil actions. Nice.

Why is it that whoever is dealing out the karma seems to have such bad aim? Always killing children in order to punish their parents, or zapping people we like with cancer instead of giving it to oh, I don't know, Dick Cheney.

I don't know what to think overall about this horrible situation, but I do know that I believe that people who think we earn every bit of suffering we get on this earth and chalk it up to "karma" must have little experience of life.

People like to talk about the bad teachings some get from religion. Well, to me the whole concept of "karma" is one of the worst--or at least, the way the average person interprets it.

[Mythsaje]

104. One of the nicest people I've ever known

had the shittiest things happen to her, one after the other. Her son got really sick, her daughter committed suicide, and her mother died of a stroke all within a single year.

I think karma's bullshit.

I DO think there are natural consequences to actions, but some people (Cheney, et al) are fortunate and evil enough to hide from those consequences.

[NashVegas]

125. After All These Terrible Things Happened

Did your friend turn to dealing drugs?

If she did, and you still think she's one of the nicest people you've ever met, I feel very sorry for the circumstances you live in.

[Mythsaje]

132. No... she didn't.

What does that have to do with anything?

[NashVegas]

144. "I Think Karma's Bullshit"

The child in this story died as a direct result of its parents' not-very-nice actions.

Sometimes, crappy things happen to people for no fault of their own. How you respond to your circumstances reverberates a lifetime.

[tomreedtoon]

195. Possibly because the drugmakers didn't care for their own lives.

But maybe, possibly, barely, they might have cared for the life of their child. Taking that away would be the only way karmic justice could occur.

It's almost Rod Serling, Twilight Zone style justice. The person who gleefully kills thousands has to watch the one person he cared about die.

I can't believe your disdain for things. One would think that you believe in the concept of a loving God. Anyone who believes that is just plain stupid.

[Mythsaje]

103. "Drugs always mean death."

Uh...no. They don't.

And, yes, meth often "enslaves" people. But not always.

Again, this is a clear case of prohibition making the money involved nearly irresistible.

[Odin2005]

113. Develop some compassion (for the young lady at least) and quit being a jerk

You expect what is obviously a neglected young teen mom living with a druggie to be a good parent? Really? Show a little empathy here.

[tomreedtoon]

194. I've seen too many people dead of Meth to feel compassion.

I guess you live one of those insulated suburban lives. Well, insulated until the teen girl next door isn't seen any more and you see the parents dressed in black.

I'm not criticizing the woman for being a drug addict. I'm criticizing her for making MORE drug addicts by helping to make the poison. That's a process too similar to vampirism to escape. (And it puts a lie to the idea that vampires do not exist.)

[Control-Z]

142. Karma?

Oh, please.

[mitchum]

99. And I am not amazed how some so wholeheartedly embrace the cliched stance of a stereotypical liberal

Suckers can be found on both sides of the political spectrum

[DS1]

119. No, fuck you and your FAIL

That kid was doomed from the start, death was inevitable because he had scum for parents. Locking them up is going easy on them, IMO

[armyowalgreens]

137. You aren't a liberal. No one who believes that BS is a liberal.

Sorry, but I'm calling hacks.

This place is being overrun by pseudo liberals that think they know better than everyone else. Bull fucking shit.

[DS1]

139. I'll just leave the hypocrisy in your reply stand

Dumbass

[armyowalgreens]

146. HAHA whatever man. Get a life.

One that actually helps people.

:7 You just keep on worrying about locking up teens for the rest of their life and leave empathy up to the real liberals.

[mitchum]

156. That 'hack" has been here 8 years longer than you, NEW BOY

[armyowalgreens]

161. Thank you sir. May I have another?

:spank: :spank:

I'm not a big fan of the "old white guy club" mentality. You are both wrong. Being here longer than I have doesn't change that fact.

But that's fine, when you have no argument left, you cling to seniority. I get it.

[DS1]

165. What are you doing to help, Righteous O'Maximus?

[armyowalgreens]

168. Help who?

Recovering drug addicts? Murderers? What?

I have multiple family members who are recovering drug addicts. One of them spent a good amount of time in prison for manufacturing and selling. That person did very bad things during that part of his life. He knows they were bad. He regrets them every day of his life. But he changed his ways and cleaned himself up. Now he supports a family and is a great person.

Don't tell me these people don't deserve the opportunity to turn their lifes around. I know they deserve that chance. I've seen what happens when people are given the chance to right their wrongs. That doesn't mean everyone is going to do it, but some will.

I don't do a lot in the rehab community because I don't have the expertise/education to take on full blown addicts. But I understand that most of them have been to hell and back.

[mitchum]

179. You do realize that the vast majority of drug addicts do not rape 12 year olds...

nor do they cause the deaths of infants by negligently allowing them to drink drain cleaner?
You undercut your advocacy for the addicted by conflating these wholly dissimilar things.

[armyowalgreens]

182. I'm someone who doesn't consider rape a crime beyond all others.

It is most definitely horrifying. But it is not outside the realm of all other crimes.

Therefore, I reject your argument that the 19 year old is somehow some sort of monster beyond help or compassion.

[mitchum]

166. Junior, YOU are the one who has no argument...

unless you count "You're no liberal if you..." as an argument.
You really do come across as a freeper's stereotype of a shrill, empty-headed, hand-wringing, cliched "liberal"
Hmmm...I wonder why?

[armyowalgreens]

171. Liberals are open minded. They question conventional wisdom.

That means you need to be open minded enough to understand that criminal is not the same as "forsaken one". Until you understand that, you are not a true liberal. What you are saying runs right along with the conservative view of criminals.

"Lock em up and throw away the key". Yep, that will teach those evil bastards.:eyes:

[mitchum]

174. Your overriding concern with the purity of "what constitutes a true liberal"...

reveals far more about you than it does your "impure" targets.
Man, I don't care if you were a racist skinhead in your younger teen years or whatever you are trying to distant yourself from. The past is the past.
But THERE is a reason for your current purity fervor. And it is the fervor of the recently converted.

[armyowalgreens]

175. Nope. I'm someone that understands

if you allow yourself to let this situation eat away at your moral guidance, eventually you will lose your way.

That's important. The point is that even in these tough situations, you don't lose your cool.

Many people in here have lost their cool and it shows BIG TIME.

[mitchum]

176. Out of the mouths of babes...

often dribbles nothing but pablum

[armyowalgreens]

177. And out of the mouths of old ignorant people

comes nothing but contempt and hatred.

I hope I'm not like that in 20 years. I'll kill myself first.

[mitchum]

180. Promises...promises...

[dionysus]

208. ROFL....

damn you
:spray:

[keroro gunsou]

181. well if that's how you feel.

you are free to leave. no one's forcing you to engage in this conversation. accept the fact that your opinions differ, and move on.

my opinion: they are both dumbasses who do deserve jail time. certainly the girl will suffer knowing she helped to kill her kid through her inaction and baseline stupidity, that is if the meth or the chemicals that go into it haven't already torched her brain. her, i see as more redeemable that the 19 year old. i believe they need to pay for their crimes, both of action (meth) and inaction (the kid).

just my two drachma... whatever those are worth these days.

[dionysus]

207. to you, any crime committed is evil society's fault and no one is ever guilty of anything...

that's not called liberalism, it's called being a fool.

[Fumesucker]

21. Without the fucking drug war..

They wouldn't have been making meth..

The same way as without alcohol prohibition all those kids who died from drinking contaminated alcohol back then wouldn't have had contaminated moonshine to quaff.

And yes, it was a fairly common problem at the time.

[WVRICK13]

37. Reality Check

The poverty in areas of Kentucky and WV is so severe that making Meth. or growing pot is the only way to not starve, yet our taxes are paying bank presidents multi-million dollar bonuses for failing. A WTF moment for me.

[cali]

41. Really? Making meth is the only way not to starve?

No federal programs for women and infants in KY or W.V.? No food shelves? Sorry, I don't buy the "they had to make meth in order not to starve" line.

[Jeep789]

42. I suggest you try getting help in nearly any state now

Remember Clinton's Welfare Reform? Sadly, many of the laid off middle class are just starting to realize that the ultimate result is a safety net with vast holes in it.

[WVRICK13]

49. Not Only Remember it

I get to tell people every day they don't qualify for benefits under the current law. Maybe we should tell the bankers they don't qualify for welfare instead. If anyone doubts the depth of poverty in Appalachia they aren't paying attention. Or maybe I pay too much attention since I work in social services. In our country, getting benefits to not starve or freeze makes you a worthless bum but you can get benefits to allow you to maintain your home in the Hampton's, your yacht, your top of the line luxury car and your $1,000 dinners. Wow I sure am proud we are so equal.

[cali]

53. The WIC program is available in KY

so are other programs. There are CACs active in KY. Many run food pantries. I'm not saying it's enough, but pretending that without manufacturing meth, people would starve is patently ridiculous. Yes, the safety net has holes in it, but no people aren't starving to death. As far as my own state goes, the safety net is still viable. I worked in social services for nearly 30 years. I'm pretty familiar with various programs.

[Jeep789]

62. The net has rotted away since you were there

and I say that as someone who currently works in Social Services. You must admit that the net wasn't that strong when you were there, so what do you think Welfare Reform did to it? WIC is a program that only subsidizes healthy food and is not even known to many in need. You can pretend that it makes a big difference but it doesn't.

When food is the biggest problem our poor have then we are no better than any other 3rd world country. Food, after all is abundant in our trash cans.

Unfortunately, the poor here face still face major problems like where do they go when housing is un-affordable? Tent cities have no publications and are often destroyed. Homeless shelters are full. They are being routed out of living in their cars in many cities.

Perhaps, parents (especially young ones that don't understand the dangers) turn to manufacturing in an attempt to improve their children's lives in addition to their own. Or perhaps, they do it because they can't afford the drug that they are addicted to and society is unwilling to get them te help they need to get off it.

[cali]

63. I got out slightly less than 10 years ago, and the net here in Vermont

is better than in most places- still is. WIC makes a big difference. And the statistics demonstrate that. Again, we need to massively improve our social safety net, but no people are not starving in my state- or any other state.

Beyond that, can we agree that these kids have some degree of reponsibility for the death of their child, or is it all just society's fault?

[Jeep789]

72. I'm in CA where Arnie is talking about dissolving welfare altogether

even to the point of losing all the federal dollars that come along with it. Nobody seems to believe he will do it, but I am quite sure their will be significant cuts that will hurt those that need it the most.


Beyond that, yes, I can agree that people with undeveloped brains have a degree of responsibility (though significantly less) than those with full cognitive abilities.

I'd hope you can agree that a society that has taken the ability of those that are unable to conform to its rules for whatever reasons and are unable due to that society's own rules to sustain themselves has a duty to offer at the very least, shelter, food and health care.

[Control-Z]

160. You are so right, Jeep789.

If everyone could have half your knowledge and understanding. Few people are really immune to poverty or homelessness, and no one is immune to unfortunate events. But there are many who believe they are, and refuse to imagine themselves in any situation where they have no control. Unfortunately, even those who have been there forget how desperate it can feel, or assume that everyone has been given that lucky moment, like they got, when they found a way out of the problems and poverty.

People love to get all high and mighty about their achievements and take credit for their good fortunes. It just doesn't work that way, though. No human being is self made. There is always a certain amount of luck that goes with success. And there are always other people who have helped along the way, whether they admit to it or not.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

86. Making Meth the only way they see to achieve the materialisitc "American Dream"

I used to work for Special Services, taking care of kids who were "failure to thrive", from extremely poor homes, etc. We had one couple whose kids were coming because of extreme poverty. About the only thing they did have was a TV--and the materialistic values they absorbed from it. Still remember when they were busted for their meth lab, and them saying they just wanted to be able to give their kids things, like material objects would bring happiness, interest in the world, and a network of caring friends. They never "got" the idea that the kids would much rather have had them there, reading a library book to them, rather than not being there and giving the kids some high priced toy to mollify them.

[Fumesucker]

76. So you see the drug war as providing a means of support for rural communities..

By providing an opportunity to cook drugs or grow pot?

I don't mean this as an attack, I'm genuinely curious as to the exact meaning of your post.

If that is indeed how you see this then that is a horrendous indictment of our governmental systems.

[w8liftinglady]

122. actually,when I looked at the DEA drug lab registry-

there seemed to be a common denominator-rural,high unemployment rate...now whether that is the cause or the effect-that's another question.

[DS1]

120. Do you think the Gov't will start selling meth?

How is the drug war responsible for these idiots?

[donco6]

134. I would NEVER support legalizing meth.

I've seen too much firsthand what it does to families in my schools.

[B Calm]

32. Mitch McConnell's district. . . .

[Solly Mack]

39. There are so many levels of 'WTF?' in that story

So many tragic circumstances culminating in the death of the baby.

:(

Just horrible...

[malaise]

51. The boy's 14-year-old mother and 19-year-old father???

WTF??????

[MadHound]

59. Another reason to declare the War on Drugs to be lost and legalize the shit.

How many innocents have to die before common sense finally takes hold?

[cali]

61. So manufacturing meth should be legalized?

Apply for the appropriate license and voila, you too can go into business? I'm all for ending the stupid war on drugs- particularly when it comes to possession, but no, I don't think meth should EVER be legal.

[MadHound]

66. All drugs should be legal to consume

It has been shown that if you legalize drugs, usage rates go down due to the fact that the lure of the forbidden is no longer there.

You legalize amphetamines, then there is no need to make meth, and users can get the real deal, clean and pure without such fun extra added ingredients as drain cleaner, or battery acid.

You legalize all drugs and you get rid of the massive secondary crime wave that accompanies drugs, the stealing, the shooting, the stupid incidents like this one. That drug war in Mexico, gone. Oh, and we might get our civil liberties back. Buying OTC cold medicine again without a prescription or having to sign a book, what a novelty.

An entire new tax base, with plenty of money for real drug education and real drug recovery programs, what a novel concept. Former criminal addicts suddenly turned into productive, tax paying citizens, a kinder, gentler country.

Yes, if you have the appropriate license, pass inspections by the FDA, aren't hooked on drugs yourself, yes, why not, manufacture amphetamines. It can be arranged that tweakers aren't the ones who make the shit, that's easy.

I'm tired of reading stories like this one. I'm tired of having my civil liberties destroyed. I'm tired of having my car shot up, or my shit ripped off as drug deals and users either battle it out for turf, or simply need cash for a fix. I'm tired of watching vast amounts of money flowing into a few corrupt hands, the police, the prosecutors, the lawyers. I'm tired of our country destroying itself with a prohibition battle that we know we can't win. It's time to end the War on Drugs madness. Legalize everything, control it all appropriately, sell it cheaply, use part of the tax revenues for real drug education and recovery programs, and give us our country back.

[cali]

67. No thanks to legal meth. And you have provided no evidence for the claims you make.

Btw, is there any country that's legalized all drugs, including meth?

[MadHound]

74. Then you condemn this country to ongoing meth violence, and more sad stories like this one

Gee, as one who lives in the middle of meth country, thanks for consigning me to a worse quality of life, where I have to worry about random tweakers doing stupid shit to feed their need. How kind of you:eyes:

As far as proof, one has but to look at Europe, specifically the Netherlands, where their usage rates for dope and coke are much lower than ours
<http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/67>

And while there is no country that's legalized amphetamines, the UK has reduced them to a Class B drug, the same classification as marijuana. This has led to much less meth use or manufacture, the first meth lab in the UK was found four years ago, and only a handful have been found since. Rather, people get a script to amphetamines and use those. And much like other addicts, speed addicts in England are actually taxpaying citizens, not the desperate tweaking criminals you see in the US.

We've seen that prohibition doesn't work, so why continue the madness? Oh, yeah, it makes money for a certain select group of people, police, lawyers, people like the CIA, in this country, while screwing the rest of us. Way to stick up for continuing the madness.

[endarkenment]

202. portugal

and meth was legal in this country for around 60 years with no huge problems, certainly nothing like the medical problems we have with tobacco and alcohol.

[WVRICK13]

199. Not To Mention

you can control a legal substance and the majority of the distribution network. There will be holes where a minor gets drugs from an older friend but hey, how many dealers do you know who cards buyers?

[Hippo_Tron]

193. Thing is I don't think people start out doing meth

You get addicted to either cocaine or amphetamines. When you run out of money you get desperate and start making meth. I'm sure if drugs were all legal, some people would still be dumbasses and cook meth. But most would be able to get their fix cheaper and easier.

[LostinVA]

69. This means the girl was pregnant when she was 11-12 years old

[Jennicut]

83. Incredibly disgusting. Who allowed her to have a child?

My two daughters would not be having a kid when they are a kid. Adoption or abortion would be better then this. My cousin was 15 when she got pregnant and had an abortion. She went on to get married and have 3 beautiful children one of which was born two days ago. She is perfectly happy now.

[votingupstart]

88. i am wondering about the "mothers" parents

your child is pregnant at 12?, and your daughter is spending her days and nights cooking Meth? - WOW, you must be real proud of yourselves.

[Strong Atheist]

117. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[votingupstart]

190. thanks - again nt

[LostinVA]

112. Horribly -- rape, no matter how you look at it

An 11 or 12-year-old can't consent, no matter what some people say.

[uppityperson]

114. Pro-choice.

[w8liftinglady]

81. The DEA's Clandestine drug lab registry..

has some scary/interesting statistics.I wonder why states like Missouri and Tennessee have such a high number of meth labs.
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/seizures/index.html

[carlyhippy]

87. ok...lets see...the baby was 20 months old, the mother is 14....

so add 9 months to it for pregnancy, this girl was 12 when she got pregnant.....very sad......

[blueamy66]

90. What kind of parent

let's their 14 year old give birth?

[Liberal_in_LA]

96. Sarah Palin would

[uppityperson]

115. Better question is what kind of parent doesn't make sure their 14 yr old pg daughter has

adequate support before and after giving birth? What kind of community doesn't make sure of this?

[LisaL]

141. The article says she is 14 now.

And the child was 20 months.
Which would mean she wouldn't be older than 13 when she gave birth.
I wonder, when she did show up at the hospital to give birth, wasn't police called? Didn't child protective services get involved?

[Thothmes]

154. Would you feel better if they forced her to have a D&C.

[pennylane100]

91. Wherewas social services.

A fourteen year old that has a twenty month old child is surely a victim of rape, or can a twelve year old give consent. Why was she allowed to keep the child without supervision and why was the father
0f the child not punished.

[LeftishBrit]

105. I was wondering the same thing!

Taking a baby into care is NOT always the worst possible option!

[mitchum]

97. Seems to me that knocking up a 12 year old and then being responsible...

for a helpless infant would already qualify as a "wake up call" to prompt someone to "turn their life around"
How many "second chances" are going to be given to these cretins?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

98. I'm blown away....

....that the immediate response is the lawyer's question "Aren't these two being overcharged?"

Truly, this child had no one who gave a damn about it.

[Mythsaje]

106. Throwing them in an obliette and throwing away the key

won't bring the child back. Asking the questions of why it happened and what's a reasonable punishment for negligent homicide at least has the benefit of getting a necessary conversation started.

The baby's dead. It sucks. But there's still a young lady involved whose life doesn't have to end there.

[Odin2005]

107. OMG what a horrible situation.

Where are the young lady's parents and why were they letting her get knocked up when she was 12 by a guy 5 years older then her?

:cry:

[Sebastian Doyle]

118. The wrong person died.

Though I imagine the baby, being the offspring of two tweakers, probably would have had problems of his own even without drinking Drano.

Nothing in this world more useless than tweakers. Except inheritance billionaires. And Wall Street criminals.

[Control-Z]

151. I'm sure if you think long and hard

you could add to that useless people list of yours. You just sound like that kind of guy.

[varelse]

121. More details at this link

http://www.kentucky.com/263/story/815748.html

[Liberal_in_LA]

157. Quotes from the granpa. So granpa lived nearby. I wonder if grandpa was pushing 30.

[BolivarianHero]

128. I know this will sound callous...

By day, Creation Museum. By night, crystal meth and statuatory rape.

Welcome to Kentucky.

[LostinVA]

138. There was no statuatory rape -- just rape

The child was 11 or 12 when she was raped and made pragnant.

[Control-Z]

149. What a tragedy.

There has to be compelling reasons why a 12 yo becomes pregnant, carries a pregnancy to term, and remains the custodial parent. What forced her into these circumstances? One can't help but think the parents must have played a hefty role in the destruction of this girl's life. It would be almost impossible for someone her age to land where she did without parental consent.

Who knows, though? Maybe she had no family to help her. That happens, though usually the state will step in. But more and more kids seem to fall through the cracks these days. As I was told by someone who works with troubled teens, "There are bigger crimes to deal with" (than runaways, truants, pregnant teens...).

How much does the state of Kentucky offer to underprivileged, abused, neglected and/or orphaned kids?

Someone should have been responsible for this child, and for her child. The whole deal sucks.

[w8liftinglady]

158. grandpa lived across the street

"The boy's grandfather, Larry Branham, said he was at a house just across the narrow, hilly road from the trailer when his daughter and Branham drove over and rushed inside with Kayden to call 911."

[keep_it_real]

159. All I can say is, sad, very sad . . .

[Occam Bandage]

183. He should get charged with statutory rape as well. nt

[create.peace]

184. here are prohibited jobs for kentucky 14-15 yo.

1. Manufacturing or storing explosives
2. Driving a motor vehicle and being an outside helper on a motor vehicle
3. Coal mining
4. Logging and sawmilling
5. Power-driven wood-working machines
6. Exposure to radioactive substances and to ionizing radiations
7. Power-driven hoisting equipment
8. Power-driven metal-forming, punching and shearing machines
9. Mining, other than coal mining
10.Slaughtering, meat packing or processing (including power-driven meat slicing machines)
11.Power-driven bakery machines
12.Power-driven paper-products machines
13 Manufacturing brick, tile and related products
14.Power-driven circular saws, band saws and guillotine shears
15.Wrecking, demolition and ship-breaking operations
16.Roofing operations
17.Excavation operations
18.In, about or in connection with any establishments where alcoholic liquors are distilled, rectified, compounded, brewed, manufactured, bottled, sold for consumption or dispensed unless permitted by the rules and regulations of the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board (except they may be employed in places where the sale of alcoholic beverages by the package is merely incidental to the main business actually conducted).
19.Pool or billiard room

mothering without adequate support is not on here! too bad.

[Gemini Cat]

185. The kid had a kid at age 12

and didn't anyone at social service think to keep up with her and the baby? Didn't the hospital assuming she had the kid in a hospital offer services? Did she go to school?
I know the excuses from the state will be forth coming... hands are tied, kids slip through the cracks, funding is cut and all that rubbish. However, 12 is a bit young to be breeding and with that, questions should have been raised.

RIP little baby, you deserved better than that.

[IrishBuckeye]

186. Why so fast to blame the state?

We don't know the details so why are you blasting the state already? Maybe they did do checkups, maybe the parents lied and said her parents are taking care of the baby, a lot of maybes and even more we don't knows. Blasting an under funded state agency at this point and time seems insane to me, they are the state, not a bunch of fk'ing babysitters.

[Gemini Cat]

188. .

Yeah, right. Whatever. :eyes:

[Control-Z]

196. I'll tell you what.

If the state can't keep up with the reddest of red flag cases, then who are they keeping up with? A pregnant 12 yo has "HELP ME" in indelible ink all over her. The 12 yo needed protection. On what planet does having a baby reduce that need? Someone should have been raising both her and her baby.

[KamaAina]

189. You had me at "14-year-old mom"

:scared: :cry:

[endarkenment]

201. People used to be able to go to a doctor and get a prescription for meth.

Now we have meth labs in trailer parks. Yeah WOD! USA USA USA

[leftofthedial]

206. Oh beautiful for spacious skies

for amber waves of grain...


:-( :cry:

[cali]

211. breaking: citizens of other nations do bad things too.

just thought you should know.