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Why does the FBI seem incapable of infiltrating Republican terrorist groups?

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:01 AM
Original message
Why does the FBI seem incapable of infiltrating Republican terrorist groups?
Tim McVeigh. Eric Rudolph. Doctor killers. The FBI acts like they never heard of these nuts until after they have killed. Why is that?

Don't they use the same techniques on them as they use on other terrorists to catch them before they have killed?

Something is wrong here.

Don
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why Infiltrate, When you Can Own?
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. That pretty much sums up their obvious lack of interest re prevention
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. Oh please. Maybe learn something before accusing the FBI!!

According to the FBI, the murderer of Tiller was not a formal member of any group.

I have a lot of respect for the FBI, since they kept their nose clean when the CIA was waterboarding detainees.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. And your proof they haven't is...??????

This Roeder guy was supposedly not a member of any of these organized groups. What are they supposed to do, read the thoughts of everyone?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. Because all available agents are already embedded in progressive groups?
:shrug:
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. "Progressive groups" are the actual targets for the phony "war on terror"
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Maybe.
Maybe not.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Plenty of evidence to back that up...some very direct, others that require connecting dots
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
38. I see we have a winner. n/t
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. The media should be asking this question, if they were real media.
But of course they aren't.

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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
43. Of course - we haven't had real news in such a long time I am sure
many of you young people have never seen any.
There is NONE around now, at least not the MSM....


mark
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. Because, unlike left-wing terrorists or foreign terrorists
Republican terrorists have real support, influence & political power.
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Bingo.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. um Osama bin Laden had great connections: the Bush family. Look how easy it was for family
members to exit from the US after 9/11 while all flights were hated.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. How many elected officials regularly stand up in Congress & voice support for al Qaeda?
Whatever connections they may have are kept secret.


OTOH, anti-abortion terrorism is a main plank of the GOP party platform and has been for many years.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. There's nothing "left-wing" about Osama bin Laden.
He's a right-wing terrorist just like his Christian counterparts. The difference is strictly a chocolate vs. vanilla one.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
55. He's a FOREIGN terrorist
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kjackson227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. Because they (FBI and the CIA) are largely Republican themselves?
They're not supposed to be political agencies, but they are. Especially the FBI- remember J. Edgar Hoover?
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CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. The FBI heavily recruits Mormons
and always have. Why would they investigate themselves?
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kjackson227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Exactly! Just as someone else stated, these agencies consists of right-wing conservatives.
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BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. That explains a few things...
Like the number of unsolved crimes. Freethinkers can do a much better job of solving complex crimes than fundies.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. I have never heard this before.
Why would they actively recruit Mormons?

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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. The CIA and the FBI recuit Mormons.
Because they are conservative, don't do anything illicit(drink, drug, cheat on spouse, all of which can be used by foreign intelligence orgs to turn an agent) and they have fantastic foreign language skills. They are pro business which means they are also staunch anti-communists.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Yet, Romney is considered too strange to be the GOP candidate for president? n/t
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
41. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
They can't take care of the problem because they are part of it.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
48. Wrong. The CIA is always noted as being very liberal.
Just as the State Department.
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conspirator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Very liberal! funding right wing militias and dictators in south america? nt
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Cold War liberals
People like Cord Meyer. With organizations like the Congress for Cultural Freedom and Encounters magazine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/magazine/30liberal.ht...
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chelsea0011 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. There is no way Rudolph lived in the NC woods on his own for years
The FBI is simply not up to the task of taking on RW terrorism.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. And given that the statute of limitations has already kicked in for some of this...
it's very unlikely that his terrorist support network will ever see time.
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get the red out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I wouldn't be shocked
If I learned they were taking Rudolph Happy Meals to his cave.

White powerful assholes still have their hooks dug into the government agencies.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. "The FBI is simply not up to the task of taking on RW terrorism." QFT, n/t
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
9. Look at the color of skin of the people in groups they tend to infiltrate...
and there you'll have your answer. The FBI tends to give white conservatives a pass. I think that's a big mistake.
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floridablue Donating Member (996 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. They can't physically represtnt them
Can you imagine an FBI agent who would look like Jeff Sessions, or Lindsey Graham and the likes of them?
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
11. Explanation
I think it is fairly clear in the cases cited above. In the cases above, these assclowns were acting alone (Rudolph) or in small groups (McVeigh/Nicholls) maintaining a very small profile until they acted. Before you can infiltrate an operation, you have to detect it (see some sign an operation is running or being planned), filter it (determine this is a credible operation and a real threat) and acquire it (identify enough of its structure to be able to "cut in"). Filtering is the big deal because there are many, many loud mouthed cranks out there who aren't really credible threats. They're just nasty, loud mouthed people.

It's not like cutting into anti-war groups in the late 60s. Those groups had names, sizable numbers, and relatively lax security.

There have been few (any?) left wing militant groups in operation since the Vietnam era. (But then, no one has been forcing people into rice paddies against their will lately, either.) But the right wing seems to nourish their violent members with Glen Beck style hysterics, and there appear to be many violence-prone people out there in the fast dwindling Republican base.

Understand that the FBI can probably improve their efficiency through better detection and filtering ... all we need for that is to continue to develop surveillance and collection programs which many of us here feel are unconstitutional and dangerous to freedom over the long term.

Trav
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Like sharks hiding in a pod of dolphin, it's up to the dolphin to drive them out.
The only way that's going to happen is if the Republic Right-wing is made to realize that there are serious political and legal consequences for harboring and encouraging terrorists.

The Justice Dept. now has to make this an investigative priority, which means shifting its emphasis off Bush-era obsessions with things like anti-Globalization activists, tree spikers, and PETA.
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. I do agree with that
I am just pointing out that regardless of political affiliation, crackpots acting alone or in twos or threes can be difficult to identify without very wide surveillance. (That's why cell size in hard core insurrectionist groups like certain wings of the IRA tend to be small ... on the order of 4 or 5.)

Freedom isn't free ... and in this context, that means we have to be willing to accept certain risks. We can lower those risks a little with the surrender of a mighty load of civil liberties and protections ... but we will never achieve complete safety.

Operation Rescue certainly deserves to be scrutinized to determine if any of its members participated in, or any of its resources (including web site) were used to foment or plan what has to be called political assassination. (I mean, where else would an investigator start?) But as an a priori investigation, it could be difficult to detect, even if one or more covert ops had successfully installed themselves in the main stream cover organization (in this case, Operation Rescue). (And for all we know, that could be exactly the case.)

What I am saying is that the incident itself does not tell us that the FBI is complicit passively or actively in these kinds of offenses.

On the other hand, so far the incident doesn't tell us that they AREN'T complicit ...

But in the meantime, if they back off PETA, who is going to defend my vegetable garden from the hordes of ravaging Vegans such negligence would surely unleash? WHO WILL DEFEND US FROM THE VEGAN THREAT!!! :rofl:


Trav

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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. Your garden is safe, citizen, from rampaging Vegans and Soviet Medicine. Wolverines!
Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 05:52 PM by leveymg
Truth is, the apparatus for mass domestic wiretapping has been in place since implementation of the 1994 CALEA Act. A lot of this equipment was manufactured by Verint and Narus, companies based in Israel.

Really large scale domestic intercepts and automated analysis, including the necessary software, has been in place since NSA was privatized under Gen. Hayden and farmed out to a consortium of defense contractors and telcos led by Lockheed Martin and Verizon in Operation Groundbreaker, circa 2000.

By early 2001 -- months before 9/11 -- NSA was already handing out contracts to operate several domestic eavesdropping centers - The CEO of Qwest, Joseph Naccio, got into a lot of trouble when he questioned the legality of these operations six months before the attacks.

Mass warrantless surveillance didn't start with the Patriot Act and TSP. Cheney and Bush simply put everything together under White House control after 9/11. There's no need to change anything to look into every single member of Operation Rescue. I can assure you, each and every one of them have been run through the domestic terrorist profiling system, several times. So have a lot of us here at DU. It's just part of life in America, at this point.

Genie's not going back in the bottle. Not after the 2008 FISA Amendments Act, which legalized warrantless "blanket" interception of all calls in and out of the country, and immunized the telcos. Senator Obama and a vast majority of his colleagues voted for it. The Justice Dept is just as protective today of its power to declare "state secrets" immunity from disclosure of domestic electronic surveillance as its predecessor was. Brave new world.
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. We have simply got to talk sometime
Because I agree that the genie is out ... I'm just saying we gotta slam that creep right back in his bottle. And we cannot do that if we are asking the genie to cover our butts. No ... we have to do this the old fashioned way. And that means running some risk. Dr. Tiller was a very brave man, who did what he thought was his duty in the face of what was obviously a clear and present danger.

Because while right now we have a reasonable (or at least, not malicious) President, the gods only know how many cretins have buried into the Federal system as "career employees". And what happens when there is the inevitable change in power, and a more mendacious Chief Executive takes the office?

The American system has worked so well only because it is based on that marvelous idea of checks and balances. But what check is there to this power? Can there be freedom without privacy?

Now, excuse me ... but I have to go set a trap for them garden pillaging Vegan varmints. :evilgrin:

(Wolverines! I sprayed coffee all over my monitor when I read that one.)

Trav
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-02-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. No, I am not buying you a new computer screen!
Here, take a napkin. Use a sharp stick for the critters. Now, go . . . a grateful nation salutes you!

:P :spray: :patriot: :yoiks:

You can always PM me. Beware, citizen, there are rumors that Skinner reads all the PMs . . . if there weren't before, there are now!




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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
52. I'm pretty sure sharks don't hide in pods of dolphins.
Though they often trail them and pick off scraps that the pod left behind.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-02-09 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #52
62. There's always at least one ichthyologist in every crowd.
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kjackson227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. Ahhh... the agency probably could improve their efficiency...
but would they WANT to??? Then, they'd have to eat their own.
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BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
15. I don't know...
Probably the same reason why the CIA couldn't properly infiltrate Islamist terrorist groups when they were being used as proxies to kill commies and feminists in the Middle East.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
24. I was trying to figure out this guy's bomber conviction yesterday
(see the many research threads for link)

In 1996 while the right wing christian hate and anti-tax/anti-gov group the Freemen was in a standoff with a very cautious FBI (after Waco) in Montana, Scott Roeder hops in his car with explosives. Gets pulled over for not having license plates but instead Freemen plates that says more or less "officer please pull me over." No insurance, or driver's license either. Search yields enough explosives to kill people. Search of home yields books on making bombs and Freemen info. Same stuff McVeigh had.

What does he get for a sentence? 24 months of probation and told not to talk to the Freemen. That's WTF number #1.

He violates that sentence and gets picked up and sent to prison. There he serves part of his sentence before winning an appeal of the search of his vehicle. That's WTF #2.

Then, for the next 11 years bet your ass he's doing operation rescue stuff. Yet, under the radar? That's WTF #3. The feds and locals should have been all over this guy.

Then he gets a gun.... Fill in the rest of the wtfs.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. It's almost as if a certain portion of our justice system was intent on him being able to act out.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. yeah, I don't know much about Kansas
Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 03:43 PM by Snazzy
And not sure I really want to educate myself either. But seems like from what little I did read the last day, most prominent pols, like the AG for instance, spend a lot of time while campaigning stirring up their anti-choice boiling-pot.

So, Tiller wins court case, just last month, echo chamber goes nuts, you think maybe keep an eye on local loonies be a good plan? WTF does the FBI actually do in Kansas if not that? Of course they killed him in church; don't need to be much of a profiler to come up with that M-O. Same reason the fundamentalist wackos in Pakistan (etc., name a religiously tainted conflict) are always blowing up churches.

Strange lack of info on net for the bomber conviction. Happened a year after OK City, you'd think they'd give more of a shit. Something rotten in Kansas.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. the Attorney General of Kansas subpoenaed Tiller's patient records to go on a fishing expedition
to see if he could find any illegal procedures etc.

And as if by magic, O'Reilly went on the air with information about certain patients.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. yet the lone nut drumbeat will soon be deafening
(and I see current D-AG inherited that trial. I came across a story about Brownback, who I think was one our our killer's heroes, campaigning with one of the previous R-AG's, riling up fundy base with anti-choice buzz terms, evangelical crap. Wonder how many other Senators we have who don't believe in evolution. A-fucking-mazing. Holder should send some feds to go make these terrorists' worst nightmares about gov intervention come true).
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
25. Simple answer - the feds are not interested in preventing violence against our side. They actively
aid the killers on the right because many/most of their personnel also belong to those groups.

Pigs are pigs and they wallow in their filth together.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
26. coz they don't want to? funny how they find the resources to infilitrate benign anti-war groups, tho
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
59. and Kansas was all over ACORN of course
and it seems hands off on even known RW terrorists.

Had no idea Kansas was central front of American Taliban. I hope Holder takes a good look at WTF the FBI actually has been doing in Kansas for the last decade.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
29. They rarely cost big dollars to any big industry.
Look at the animal rights movement. They passed the AETA to keep us from targeting any "animal enterprise" because of how much money it was costing them/could potentially cost them.

Why isn't there a Women's Rights Enterprise Terrorism Act? That's what I want to know.
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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. Well, nobody likes the animal rights groups.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
32. All the agents are busy attending vegan potlucks and anti-war meetings.
:shrug:
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. makes me think of Fahrenheit 9/11 where the cop infiltrated the fresno
peace group--so what's wrong with the fbi? why can't they handle it?
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
37. They keep turning each other in.
Just sayin' . . .
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
42. Lack of Fucking Desire !
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
47. Maybe they aren't.
;-)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
49. The FBI has plenty
Edited on Mon Jun-01-09 06:04 PM by H2O Man
of resources that focus on the right-wing,"hate group" terrorists. They even use the SPLC's intelligence on these groups. But they do not decide who to arrest and prosecute as often as one might suspect. Those decisions are made by the Department of Justice.
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bamacrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
50. They dont care.
If they are white it seems to be ok. ITs ok for Americans to want to kll other Americans but no one else.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-01-09 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
56. Have they inflitrated ALF yet? nt
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